Please I want to know what's the use of the Saints and how can Mary hear all prayers for we all know that she has only one spirit.

-- Marwin T. Pacho (pacho@mail.subictel.sequel.net), April 03, 1998

Answers

The Saints were like us, they made sins and they made good things. But the Saints had something very important to be followed and venerated. For example: their patience, their force to defend the Gospel, their ideas, etc. Then the Saints are showed as models of life to demostrate that any human can be a Saint if he wants. Mary was inmaculated i.e. she hasn't any sin, she was full of grace because she was the Mother of God. Therefore she can hear our prayers to help us. She is more important than the Saints and she receives a privileged veneration. We must ADORATE God and we venerate or admire the Saints and Mary.

-- Carmen (cpineda@banamex.com), April 07, 1998.

A wonderful example of the examples that saints provide for our lives would be the case of Saint Augustine and his wonderful mother, Saint Monica. A sinner for many years, Augustine, finally converted, after many prayers by his mother. Saint Monica is the saint of patience, and this is a quality that all of us could use from time to time. Saints have qualities that we can emulate in our own lives. My personal saint is, of course, Saint Monica. Without her intervention, I would drive those in my life crazy indeed.

-- Samantha Moody (HasLaughingEyes@webtv.net), April 12, 1998.

Okay, think of the Kingdom of God as a family. Now, this family is a family made out of people who have no blood ties. Think of God as our father. Jesus as our eldest brother. Mary as our mother. The saint's as our brothers. Think of yourself as a child of God. Now say you want something from God. You ask Jesus, our one and only mediator before God. But you know, sometimes God answers our prayers after a long while, but you want what you want quick. So you ask Mary and the Saint's, and they pester God for it. So it's like a big family all asking God for something. And God will listen, cause Mary and the Saint's are close to Him. There's a lot more reasons, why don't ya all e-mail me for answers.

-- Keith Leong (Santiago_20@hotmail.com), June 13, 1998.

Well, do you ask your friends to pray for you? When we're praying to Mary and the Saints, we're just asking our friends to pray for us. :-)

-- Dana Mac (someday@idt.com), June 29, 1998.

The Bible states quite clearly that only God has omnipresence. Therefore to say that dead people whether they be in Heaven or Hell can hear us is totally unscriptual and a slight on God.

-- Bill Butler (bbut@hotmail.com), February 05, 2001.

Dear Bill Butler,
You support that view? How about if I support the equally demonstrable view that YOU are a slight on God? My word's as good as yours, Sir.

Go back to your statement. What is omnipresence? Do you understand the concept? I say you don't. Your concept is faulty:

1.) Because you are human, and a concept of this sort is not demonstrable. We accept it on faith.

2.) You can't understand it because you are attributing the concept you have (of omnipresence) to a saint's hearing the prayer of someone on earth! Are we omnipresence, when we hear someone's voice over a telephone?

3.) Saints are not omnipresent; the Church never taught us they were. But they DO hear the prayers of the saints on earth. So do the angels. They share in God's Divine power Communion with His saints, on earth and in Heaven. It's called the Beatific Vision. What God sees, they see, in the Mystical Body of Christ which is His Church. It is a vision (and it is heard, too) but the saint remains in heaven-- we are on earth. Omnipresence My eye!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 05, 2001.

Dana,

You said, "Well, do you ask your friends to pray for you? When we're praying to Mary and the Saints, we're just asking our friends to pray for us." There is one major flaw in your argument and that is our friends aren't dead when we ask them to pray for us.

-- Bill Butler (bbut@hotmail.com), February 14, 2001.

Eugene,

You say "It's called the Beatific Vision. What God sees, they see, in the Mystical Body of Christ which is His Church. It is a vision (and it is heard, too) but the saint remains in heaven-- we are on earth."

Sounds like omnipresence to me which the dictionary defines as present everywhere, which you would need if as you say "It is a vision (and it is heard, too)". Well I guess your reply is a Catholic view of things (unsupported by scripture as are some other Catholic beliefs such as purgatory). You are entitled to your beliefs and if you wish to believe such unbiblical nonsense, then I guess it's your choice.

-- Bill Butler (bbut@hotmail.com), February 14, 2001.

And.....? your point? Where does it say that being dead makes one iota of difference in regards to that? However, in Revelation there is mention of others being able to bring our petitions before God.

.................................................

-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 14, 2001.

sorry bill, my last one went to your post before your post to eugene. About that one...Purgatory IS biblical, just not if you insist on cutting books out of Scripture. You may argue with that, but that is exactly what has been done. The Orthodox churches that split from the RCC *long* before the reformation still count them, as had been done for 1500 years before Luther. Justify that, and you will have begun to lend justification to your argument.

*That* is "nonsense" ..........................................

-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 14, 2001.

The last thing any of us needs is another jr or "prophet" on our hands, so kindly don't leave these questions unanswered (cutting Scripture, Revelation, and anything else I've asked). If you are in earnest and have thought out and researched your arguments you should have answers for them already, or at least know where to get them. Before you post, however, fully understand our side and address that directly (make sure it's relevant, not like the other two yahoos who have been cutting and pasting whole tracts from websites). Just make sure it's relevant and accurate. Accuracy is the key.

..........................................

-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 14, 2001.

Bill Butler won't answer those questions. He has no answer. Nothing in scripture, or in history.

If protestants had even ONE verse in scripture to excuse their secession from the True Church, wouldn't they have brought it forth; after 500 years? And if confronted with the historical fact that scripture came to him from God through the Catholic Church-- Bill will not answer that, EITHER!

Amazing how these ''churches'' can never defend any of their claims! Can anyone tell me of a SINGLE time where Protestants have ever been successful, confronted by the Catholic Church? A SINGLE fair argument ever won vs. Catholics? Protestants have failed century after century. Then, when the Church opens up an ecumenical dialogue, they go back to the same failed arguments. Because there is no valid argument. If there were, they would use it.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 14, 2001.

Of course there isn't. By forcing someone to discover that for themself we stand the chance of them coming to the realisation of the errors of that line of reasoning.

Bill does not strike me as a jr or a 'prophet,' (unless he shows no desire to attempt to answer those questions).

Many of the protestants we have gotten here appear to me to be genuine in the belief that they are right. The DO want truth and they believe they've found it. They seriously want to prove their beliefs (not just spout them like jr). In their attempt to prove their points thoroughly, they may just do proper research and prove our points to themselves.

This is due largely to the idea that they have

1) always been protestants, and so have been given information on the RCC through biased sources (again I say...to learn about protestants, read protestants. to learn about Catholics, read Catholics) -OR- 2) They were once part of the Church and turned away based largely on a misunderstanding of her teachings/beliefs.

I believe (at least at this point) that Bill is one of those genuine truth-seekers. I believe Susan is, too.

................................................

-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 14, 2001.

Anthony,

I'm with you on this. The biggest thing we can do for sincere protestants here is to allow them to say their piece, and hopefully after it's refuted, regain another member of the Church.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 14, 2001.

Yes, My friends,
It's true. I'm guilty of treating some very nice people with barely a minimum of respect, I know. My worst attribute. I'm supposed to show more charity, be more Christ-like. Well, I should be Christ-like to Susan's Magdalene. Quite a stretch, Mm?

You are a fine example, Frank and Anthony. I'll try to follow it and maybe get better results. God bless and strengthen you. Amen

Holy Mother Mary, Pray for us; Saint James, Pray for us! Amen.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 14, 2001.

Jmj

Hello, Bill.
You stated: "There is one major flaw in your argument and that is our friends aren't dead when we ask them to pray for us [but Mary and the saints are dead]."

Bill, Jesus said to the Saducees, "... have you not read what was said to you by God, 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?' He is not God of the dead, but of the living."
Then, in the Transfiguration, he was seen with Moses and Elijah. But Deuteronomy tells us, "Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died."
You have forgotten, Bill, that, although the bodies of the saints have died and most of them are buried, their eternal souls live on in heaven with God. Please do not try to apply -- to the souls in glory -- the limitations of our human body in the three dimensions on our earth. You'll come to wrong conclusions that way.

Bill, you also stated, referring to Purgatory and the intercession of saints: "You are entitled to your beliefs and if you wish to believe such unbiblical nonsense, then I guess it's your choice."
I see. If a person believes a religious doctrine that is not explicitly stated in your Bible, it is "nonsense?" It couldn't possibly be true?
I (and countless other Catholics) have been asking Protestants, since the days of Fr. Martin Luther, one question in response to this claim of yours -- and we have yet to obtain an answer that stands up to scrutiny. The question is: Where IN THE BIBLE does it state that no religious truths can be known from outside the Bible?" If you, Bill, cannot tell us, then you would not be permitted to refer to what we believe as "nonsense," and you will surely want to apologize for belittling us.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 16, 2001.

Dear Mr. Butler, Bill--
If you are lurking around, and maybe you aren't-- things got embarrassing for you, I know--

John Gecik takes the time and trouble above to answer you carefully, to try to explain to you how Catholics have come to their faith. Mind you, this is a faith you laugh at and call ''unbiblical nonsense''. When John shows you absolute biblical proof that you're wrong; do you have enough class to return and admit you're wrong? NO! You duck for cover, and later you might come back with another attack at the Church. All this shows the intellectual dishonesty of your own faith. A faith that can't be open and true to conscience. No Catholic in this forum ever-- has had to duck for cover, Bill Butler. We are all here, if you have any valid objections. Best of all, if you need to know something honest about a Catholic's faith. Don't say we believe in nonsense, Bill. We believe in the Risen Lord, Jesus Christ. He's our Saviour, yours and mine. I never claimed to any non-Catholic that Jesus would not love him or her. I've NEVER taken Jesus away from another sincere believer; even when he disagrees with my Church. You have all of us wrong; be true to your conscience and face it.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 16, 2001.

I am new at this forun and I want to understand more about the "Beatific Vision" that Eugene talked about more 2 years ago in this thread. Does this make all the saints in heaven omnipresent like God? I am just trying to find answers. Please help.

-- Ernest Galang (xinal@juno.com), October 05, 2003.

sorry, friend,

i dont have the answer for you... and because of incessant attacks on our forum im afraid eugene doesnt post as often as he used to, but check back around and im sure he'll get back around to this thread again sometime... or you could find another thread he is actively posting in and ask him there. just hit the link to CATHOLIC at the top of the page, then hit the link to NEW ANSWERS and you can surf through the forums until you find a more recent post.

otherwise eugene... toppings for you

-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), October 05, 2003.

Dear Ernest,

The beatific vision is described in scripture thusly: "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known." (1 Corinthians 13:12)

It means the immediate knowledge of God through the direct senses, as opposed to simply learning ABOUT God, as we do in this earthly portion of our lives. Hence the phrase "face to face". All of the angels and saints in heaven experience God in this way. This experience, while infinitely more complete and intense than any experience of God we might have while in the flesh, does not endow the saints and angels with characteristics which are particular to God alone, such as omniscience, omnipotence, or omnipresence. It is a manner of experiencing God, not becoming God.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), October 05, 2003.

Our Paul selected a good verse by which to contemplate a mystery such as the Beatific Vision. Saint Paul in the same epistle says, quoting:''Eye has not seen or ear heard, nor has it entered into the the heart of man, what things God has prepared (in heaven) for those who love Him.'' (1 Cor 2:9) The following verse says the saints have had some truths revealed to them by the Holy Spirit.

These things include our earthly understanding of the Beatific Vision. We know every saint becomes eternally united in love with Him; and shares in His glory. The Beatific Vision as the Church teaches, is an ability to see as God sees, all according to His Will. What He sees from the All-knowing and All-powerful Godhead, He allows His saints to see as well.

That may not mean the sum total of what God sees is apparent to each saint. No saint can be All-knowing; that's a divine perfection. But in His love for Christ's saints, we know He gives some of them a clear vision of all that happens and has happened in this life.

Saint Paul refers to that difference by saying that in this life we see as if in a glass darkly. In heaven, our Beatific Vision will not be darkened, but truthful as God Himself is truthful. The saints now in heaven are already blessed in this way. This is the teaching of Christ's Holy Church, from the beginning.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 05, 2003.