On the firearms issue, I am not surprised at the responses. It follows a time worn pattern...those who are experienced with weapons lining up against those who fear them and think everyone should live according to their fear.

As you can see, my own response is clouded by my opinions.

Some hard rules in this world.....

Human kind is agressive by nature. Centuries of civilization has not changed eons of evolution. *IF* you can call it civilization. Personally I think the veneer of civility is paper thin at best. All I have to judge by are a few decades of dealing with the public, but the trend is quite clear in my circumstances.

The weak will be preyed upon by the strong. Just because we have cable tv and cell phones does not mean we are that far above a creature of the field. A look at our world with open eyes makes this obvious. Perhaps not in our own little backyard, or maybe there too. The people that created the holocaust are our fathers and mothers. Our grandparents. In many cases they are still alive. Stalin? There are people alive that knew him and helped with the purges. Mao? Tito? Idi Amin? Noriega? Societies of today's world birthed and raised these people. This year in the fine state of Texas a man was dragged from a truck till his body literally came apart. Why? Because his attackers had learned to hate his skin color.

My point is, we are not far removed from the vicious side of nature. Morals are learned, not bred in, and they vary with society. When society changes so do morals, and vise versa. Do you think you are better than this? How about your neighbors? How about the people down the street? How about the people driving that truck? I wonder if THEIR neighbors thought they were ok people......I wonder if Reginald Denny thought he was safe just because he was only driving down the street minding his own business.

We are armed. Those in our circle of people preparing are armed.In some cases because of a lifetimes shooting and hunting experience, in others because of Y2K and a perceived need. Are weapons paramount in our preparations? No. Are they an integral part? Yes, they are. A need to use those weapons will represent a serious failing in our preparations. A need to use our generator will also represent a failure. We understand that, but we also plan on failures. It's the whole point of planning. It's to prepare for contingencies that are not apparent at this time.

Prior Planning Prevents Poor Performance. Those who fail to plan, plan to fail.

We PLAN on having extra supplies to help those we meet in need. We PLAN on being able to say NO to 'sharing' if we decide to. Without planning on the second item, the first would not be possible. We plan on being able to defend our homes as we see a need. Hope is there that we never need to, but we prepare nevertheless.

To those who 'hate' guns, who would see all unarmed....Have you really thought this out? Have you followed your thoughts past the unreasoning emotional response you have?

All laws, all order, comes at the point of a sword or the muzzle of a gun. That is the force behind ALL laws. ALL. Pick any law, pretend to dissobey it, and follow in your mind what happens past each level of enforcment. In each and every case a man with a gun comes to your door.

You say that no person can be trusted to be armed? Your neighbors? Yourself? Who do you think makes our laws and enforces them? It's our neighbors, it's US! That neighbor who can't be trusted with a weapon in his home, you want him to put on a badge and a gun and decide how well you are obeying the law?

Those who would declare all citizens should be dissarmed, and then expect an armed government to protect them, are hypocritical fools. They would have the dirty work of their own safety and survival pushed off on others. They would expect men and women held seperate by nothing more than a tin badge and an oath to lay down their lives so the 'civilian' could toddle through his life unassailed by reality. Those who would never lift a hand to defend themselves and would happily declare their neighbors must do the same, would on that same day without a second thought call the police and expect an armed man to show up at their door prepared to die for their convenience.

To a person who would dissarm all law abiding civilians, what is a human life worth? About $24,000. The average starting pay of a police officer. Those who disdain and fear weapons, who would not consider sullying their world by lifting a hand to defend their own lives, would also not think twice about demanding some kid with a badge or a unit patch stand between him and danger. That is true cowardice, when you decide your comfort is worth more than someone else's life. That is evil.

Pam: Your 'friend' who had his gun taken away and was beaten with it? His problems did not begin and end with a weapon. They began when he decided to gamble with thugs, welch on his debts, and hang around in bars instead of working to pay what he owed. Your 'friend' chose what part of society to live in and broke their rules. Guns had nothing to do with it. His choices did.

-- anon (NotToday@security.com), October 20, 1998

Answers

"Anon"

Excellent post. I think that the idea of forming a PLAN is really essential. Just as stocking food and other needed items is prudent, so is the idea of forming a contingency for what may happen if TSHTF.

Citizens protecting their homes and their loved ones in a time of civil unrest isn't without precedent. There were instances where owners of businesses took action against armed looters during the recent LA Riots. They even had footage on the news. But the riots were a surprise. No time for planning. We have an idea of what might occur in the future and we should utilize that to our advantage.

It seems to me that if you really want to keep your family safe, you should involve your neighbors too. Form a plan of action together and you have a better chance of living through something like this. In fact, you'll have your deterrent in place and that may be more powerful than ever actually using your gun. I'd like to say maybe you should go as far as involving your city hall but I think they would look at you and I and think we needed medical help.

Great post anon. _________________________________________________________

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), October 20, 1998.

Ironically, a gunless society would actually be a society where the strongest and most savage rule. A firearm allows one person to defend against another as an "equal", so to speak, regardless of size and strength. The reality of "preparing for the worst" Y2K scenarios is acceptance that 911 reponse will not be there, and that you are completely on your own. And remember: guns often PREVENT violence, since people generally would prefer not to tangle with other people who are armed.

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), October 20, 1998.

Jack,

Remember, though, it's a different ballgame post Y2K regarding firearms as a deterrant. Consider: you've been busy planning, stocking up on food, fuel, etc. and you're not doing too badly for yourself and your family. Someone (a neighbor, someone from down the road, a drifter, whatever) sees that you're doing well and decides to take your possessions by force. You catch the person trying to break into your cellar (for example), you point your gun and say, "Hey, back off buddy or I'll perforate you!" Now what do you do? Shoot him and it's murder. Let him go and maybe he'll come back with friends, or lurk about and hope to catch you in the head with a baseball bat, or some such.

My point is that in today's society, where you can frighten a burglar off with a shotgun because he doesn't need your television set, i.e., your TV isn't worth his life, is not going to be the same as tomorrow's society when food, shelter, clothing, etc. is much more valuable. Maybe valuable enough to risk your life over. Especially if you consider that the "burglar" is a man with a family that is starving. Put yourself in that person's shoes. Would you be deterred?

My position is this: don't rely on the deterrance factor of a firearm. Either try and help the person or shoot them. The only way deterrance is going to work is if you're such a grade-A bad ass that the idea of coming back makes J. Random Thug soil himself. If you're just some guy who picks up a pistol because he thinks that no one will mess with anyone who's packing, you'll be in for a surprise.

Cheers,
--Alex

-- Alexander Garrett (agarrett@demiurge.org), October 20, 1998.

There is a proverb:

God made some men big and He made some men small. Sam Colt made them equal. . .

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), October 20, 1998.

So much gun talk lately, are you folks out there getting scared?

BTW, I think it was Chuck the night time driving man, who had a foolish friend that was beaten after flashing a weapon. Simple ass, showing aint sh*t. The folks who say Dont (whatever) or Ill shoot rarely shoot, and punks know this. SHOOT OR RUN. Do not say See my nasty gun you bad man, be smart or Ill plug you. If you give them time to think they will come to the conclusion that you do not have the balls to draw and fire, which means that you most likely lack the balls to fire, period.

Been said here before, Ill say it again. Do not point a gun at somebody in order to scare them. Point a gun at somebody in order to kill them. If you cannot do that, do not own a gun for self defense.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), October 20, 1998.

thanks Uncle D, twas not Pam but twas I with the imbecile of an acquaintance. I simply wanted to indicate that having it wasn't a deterrent, and that the suggestion that it might be used on the carrier did not presuppose that the carrier gave it up willingly, which is what I interpreted Pam's belief from one of her comments.

CR

And teh answer is, if he's trying to break into my external root cellar, the warning comes AFTER the first round which WILL pluck his hat off, as my bride will probably fire it. The warning will be "Next is heart 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, BANG "

cr

-- Chuck a Night Driver (rienzoo@en.com), October 21, 1998.

My dad is a 6'3" 250lb Swede, compared to my 5'4" could-lose-a-few- pounds self. He could toss me 10 feet without half trying.

When he taught me how to shoot, he told me I held death in my hand, for WHOEVER I pointed it at, no matter how big or how small.

Needless to say, I was very proud that he entrusted this power to me, and awed by his faith.

He also said if you are planning to use a gun, use it, don't talk about it. (He said he learned that from Clint Eastwood).

-- Arewyn (nordic@northnet.net), October 21, 1998.

The Uncle is right on, again! There is no "do you feel lucky?" The guys luck ran out when he decided to break into my house. No questions, point and shoot.

-- Bill (bill@microsoft.com), October 21, 1998.

Tiss so refreshing to know that I in some small way have started some folks thinking about the severity of the y2k and the necessity of being prepared to defend home and nearth. Gee, I haven't had so much fun since the last time. Seriously, it is much better to be a survivor than it would be to be a victim. Tactical preparedness beats being a sheeple anyday.

-- Gene Williams (g.g.williams@mindspring.com), October 21, 1998.

wow.

Such vituperance on so many threads on the same topic, and it's all my fault since I mentioned that silly ol' tax a few days ago. Well, for an update, it seems that the silly ol' tax won't get collected from prospective firearms purchasers after all (ol' John Q. Taxpayer will get this one) and maybe, just maybe, the FBI background check database will only last for a few minutes or so instead of the original 18 months or forever. At least that's what my state association (NRA affiliated) is now saying, though everything is sort of subject to change.

My other admonition still goes, double. If you decide to buy a gun and/or you are a novice gunowner, get training from a qualified instructor, practice often and be safe be safe be safe. Gunowning is an activity which requires a level of skill and personal responsibility approximately equivalent to driving a car. If you can't manage that don't buy one.

nemo...

-- nemo (nemo@deepsix.com), October 21, 1998.

quick point about the deterrent factor. It is more prudent to organize your neighbors first and build a force to be reckoned with. THAT is the deterrent. Why else would WE, as a nation, build and maintain our armed forces?

If you wield a single gun in the face of many then you're a fool and you're going to die. In another thread, Gene made reference to a roving band of criminals. If this is the case and it's YOU and yor gun against the world, you're going to die, and you're family are going to die also. Unless, you have a plan.

The point is that building a force with a plan and implementing it, keeping watch over your neighborhood, making sure that those who wont be bearing arms are hidden away and out of the line of fire is a better, more prudent course of action against the roving bands of criminals. And, this local, neighborhood militia is a deterrent, in and of itself.

Isn't it better to involve your neighbors now and get them prepared so they wont come gunning for your stash later? I'm putting together materials to bring raise my neighbors awareness and working on a plan for my neighborhood that I will present at a future date when the realization and the news coverage begins to pick up.

If it doesn't fly. It's me and mine against the world and we are out of here if it gets ugly. My little home isn't the Alamo. If it is looted and sacked, so be it. My family and I will be safe elsewhere. If you remember, the Alamo was an incredible excercise in excellent and brave souls died.

Mike ___________________________________________________

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), October 22, 1998.

I'm glad to see that I am not the only sane one left out there.

I wholeheartedly agree with y'all that "point and caress" is the only way to travel this road. That old "stop or I'll shoot" crap is for tv and movies. I too will spank him/her with #1, but after that it's only a three count before #2 goes home.

In my rather checkered past I have had occasion to be concerned over such little questions as would you/could you really do that? I can only say that in my case I have and I will again if such should become necessary. And I, and I alone, get to decide if it is necessary. I can also tell you that being shot at tends to focus things to a very narrow point real fast. It really gets your attention. Getting hit also hurts like "all Billy H*ll" and I don"t intend to get it again. I ain"t no damn hero. Like Mike says - bad enough -I'm gone.

I also believe that here is one area where there is indeed equality. I will not be in the least bit detered by it being a female "bad guy". I believe that they are probably the deadliest of the two anyway.

For any FNG"s who read these posts: Before you decide whether or not to go out and buy a gun to defend yourself against the possibility that you may need it-

1. Make the decision now, while the world is still sane(?) and the "pucker factor" is still a 1. Sit down with your favorite little "Snuggle Bunny" and use cold logics to decide the issue between the two of you, or even with the group, if that"s your lifestyle. But think it out very carefully, to include all of the possible ramifications of your decision, now, while you can and you don"t have to. 2. If you decide to buy a gun: Everyone who MAY be involved with it, to include any teens, or even sub-teens, will have to be trained in it"s care and feeding'. It is a tool but it is a long range tool and you damn well better respect it at all times. 3. Practice Practice Practice. Yes it's expensive and a bother and you would rather not do it. Trust me - if you aren't willing to pay the piper now you will have to pay an even higher price later - when you are probably going to be rather busy and have a lot more on your mind along about then. 4. If you can't do it right - Don't do it. You will only end up getting yourself or your family hurt or dead. 5. If you decide to buy a gun you will also have to assume the risks that are attendant to it's use. You will be legally, and more importantly morally responsible for the possibile outcome of it's use. 6. Whether you buy a gun or not, but especially if you do buy one, Don't try to be a damn fool hero and defend an indefensible point against an army. You will lose. Look at your site (where you will be when) and carefully inspect all of the various avenues of approach to your nest. Try to put yourself in the bad guy's shoes and see what he/she is looking at. Walk to your site by every way that you can see as an approach. Think of how you would do such things. Most humans seem to follow the same paths of habits. Try to see yourself as they will. Have a fall back line and a "GOOD" point where you flat out scram to a pre-briefed point and assemble again.

Do a lot of praying that you will never have cause to pause. Yeh, it really sucks at times but so does the world.

So I'll climb down off the soapbox now. I've said my piece and I feel better.

P.S. to Uncle D. Thank you for taking the time to think about that "lady'. I too never thought she was ugly and fat but the crew was 5 officer types (registered hogs) and 1 enlisted type (piney woods rooter) so their view prevailed. All flying type officers are trained as fighter jocks, and compared to the flashy hot rod that they all wanted to dance with I guess ole buff come up a tad short. It was a h*ll of a ride though. Thanks again.

S.O.B.

-- sweetolebob(La) (buffgun@hotmail.com), October 29, 1998.