Tom, Wayne, Everyone,

First, I want to say that I for agree with the idea you're putting forth, Tom. I've been at least half at it for about 30 years myself. I agree that if anything near the worst case scenario occurs the circumstances around us will be like nothing anyone living's ever seen, and people will gain an immediate, profound, acutely physical understanding of what it is that's actually behind your note (and the notes of others calling for similar things.) In a nutshell, I have absolutely no quarrel with what you or anyone else seeing the need and the opportunity for the advancement of more independent, self-sufficient, sane lifestyles are saying. I see it myself. But to me, one of the seemingly most unfortunate aspects of the equation is that while the general (and "organically skeptical") masses are about to be exposed to a massive "motivational engine" for making some of the changes entailed (mainly practical, mechanical changes), those of us who have known for years that there's a better way don't have the systems in place to provide them (the masses) with the components of that saner lifestyle.

As usual, I could write a short book on that one, but I'll try to keep myself on a relatively short tether here. The long and short is, in its own dumb little way, one of the primary purposes of the Millennium Salons is to foster as much of that kind of thing as possible. One of the chief motivation forces behind this site/these forums is the hope that we can somehow load it up with as much practical information as possible that will: A) help people prepare for the year 2000's ramifications - whatever they may prove to be; and B) Do so in ways that further what it is you're talking about. And while this could be another short book, I'll just say I've found it genuinely amazing how difficult it's been to gain people's cooperation in doing that: Most people involved in y2k seem most interested in the Bigger Picture, and it seems that getting focused on the ground-level how-tos is very difficult for us all to do (which, I might add, includes me - it's a genuine mind-boggler that I am by no means immune to, and have to remind myself of constantly).

But, being one of those ever-willing to keep banging my head against the wall until it breaks, let me say this: Here's what really caught my real eye, my attention, in what you had to say. I agree 100% with these words:

"...the most comfortable contingency that I can imagine would be self- sustainable, self-reliant, neighborhoods globally and locally before 2000. This is the funky, cheap, simple type of self-sustainability, not the deep ecology or the bioregionalism, or anything that would take years to implement. This is a comprehensive self-sustainability that would be more fitting for contingency for infrastructure rupture such as y2k presents."

And this. (By ALL means, this):

"But is it not worth mobilizing all those who could help in creating an ever-improving list of ideas that are cheap and simple for sustainability?"

As we used to say all the time, "Right on!"

In the interest of my conception of what these pieces of forum software are for, and with what I know to be the original intent of this particular forum, the trick (to me, anyway), is to start building on that. To me, an "ever improving list of ideas that are cheap and simple" and practical are what we all need. What's a cheap and simple way to be prepared to live without electricity? What's a cheap and simple way to be prepared to live without a grocery store for a while? What are the cheap, simple, funky ways people can get themselves prepared so they can sustain themselves, be flexible, and then move on to making that same kind of information available to, or maybe even helping their neighbors (in a world full of strangers next door) attain some measure of that?

It's always been one of the primary hopes behind this forum that the "nuts and bolts" of those things would begin to trickle in, pile up, and reach some kind of genuinely beneficial level: Become a place where anyone in the world could go to find an on-line library of ideas, knowledge, experience, put into the most simple, practical, useable terms possible. So far, that hasn't happened, but it's never too late, right?

So here's what this thread to this point makes me think and feel: The same thing. And I guess my "challenge" to you - that red flag in the bull's face? (and I by no means mean to say you should be the only one helping out with this - the same challenge applies to everyone who lays eyes on these words) - is this:

Let's start making that list!

Let's all stop talking about it and do it! There are people galore "out there" who will keep track of the latest y2k developments at the Pentagon, the halls of congress, the world of banking and corporate whateverism. There are loads of people willing to spend all day and night speculating as to what may or may not happen, what would be "optimal," and what is "imperative" that we all "move toward" ASAP. And that's great. But I can tell you this: There are a minimal number of people who seem capable of ungluing themselves from the magnetic pull of the Big Picture and getting down to that place where the rubber meets the road when it comes to taking the actions called for when it comes to installing some of those genuinely beneficial (all the way around), cheap and funky systems.

Like I say, it's a mystery. Personally, I think it has a lot more to do with people just not knowing what to do than it does anything else. People simply don't know a completely useful solar oven can be made out of a pizza box and 25-cents-worth of aluminum foil. And if they've heard about that, and thought, "Huh. Whaddaya know?," they probably haven't taken the next step (getting hold of a pizza box, lining it with aluminum foil, and sticking it on their "just in case" shelf), because they haven't read or talked to anyone who's done it, haven't read or heard their short story about how easy it was and how it's paid off, or read or heard about the specific, amazingly simple, inexpensive, 1, 2, 3-step process that makes them think, "Hey... That sounds like a really good idea! I could do that," that maybe even includes a supporting URL.

And when it comes to the "power" of this form of communication (on- line forums) to influence people and help out in this area, let me show you a real live example of one forum thread that impacted my life. I don't know why, but this little collection of information was a big part of something that got me to take yet another series of actions in the physical world that is directly related to what your opening question in this thread's all about. It's a thread from the original nonhybrid gardening forum in Gary North's forums. I happened to save it on disk last year and put it onto a web page a few months ago. To me, this is a prime example of what a forum thread can be. take a look. Notice how practical it gets. Notice how much ground it covers.

And that's just one kind of thread. It meanders and works its way down from the broad general question to the small details of how to do something that could save your butt in a pinch, covering a lot of useful things in between. But not every thread need be that long, or this long. It can be a short paragraph and a URL that says something like:

Here's where to find out how to make a pizza box solar oven:

http://www.eren.doe.gov/solarnow/activ_3.htm.

"This solar oven is adapted from a design created in 1976 by Barbara Kerr. The construction enables the user to cook anything that can be prepared on a conventional oven or stovetop and eliminates the need for stirring or basting."

It doesn't matter. The main things here are: A) I agree 100% with what you had to say in general; and B) it would seem the next step would be to start making that nuts and bolts, how-to "list."

If we count the cornthread, the pizza box oven, and the wood powered water heater, that's 3 contributions I've made to that list in the past 24 hours. No big deal, but I can't stop thinking (ever) about how interesting and genuinely useful a big part of this forum would become if a few (or 50, or 100) people started adding to some rendition of the list you're proposing.

There are categories listed on the lower part of the main screen where such things (threads) would fit. Or a new category called something like "That Funky List" can be added. Whatever it takes to make it work. Just let me know. You (along with everyone else) is invited and mildly urged to utilize this powerful tool to help build another part of whatever it is that vision consists of. All anyone needs to do is go ahead and have at it...

Bill

-- Bill Dale (windrow@mediaweb.gr), December 03, 1998.