Feds Prepared To Take Over

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

More far-reaching than martial law, the govt's plans:
Yes, here it is, fresh and straight out of the horse's mouth:

Fed Y2K Czar John Koskinen said today:
So will the federal government, predicted John Koskinen, the chair of the president's Y2K council. "People are generally concerned about the infrastructure: Will the lights stay on, will you get a dial tone? Thus far, judging by the first assessments being done on the power area, companies have been candid."

Koskinen said the government would be moving from contingency planning to a crisis-management phase.

Responding to a question about electrical-power failures, Koskinen said, "In a crisis and emergency situation, the free market may not be the best way to distribute resources.... If there's a point in time where we have to take resources and make a judgement on an emergency basis, we will be prepared to do that."

THINK about what he just said! They're now in crisis-management; won't let the free market distribute resources ... take resources ... judgement on an emergency basis, ... prepared to do that.

Sounds like martial law and emergency despotic communism.

Just read this, and more, at this URL:

Bankers: Prepared for a Panic?
by Declan McCullagh

4:50 p.m. 3.Dec.98.PST
Fear of electric-power outages and bank failures could lead to widespread panic as disruptive as the Y2K glitch itself, Senator Robert Bennett warned Thursday at the first summit organized by President Clinton's Y2K council.

"Even if the Y2K problem is solved, the panic side of it can end up hurting us as badly," said Bennett, the Utah Republican who heads the Senate's Year 2000 committee.

Bennett's luncheon address to an audience of more than 100 banking industry bureaucrats and lobbyists echoed what other government officials have said publicly and privately: Increased jitters about computer failures in financial institutions could spark bank runs in 1999.

The US Federal Reserve is printing an extra US$50 billion worth of bank notes as a precautionary measure. The central banks of Australia and New Zealand have taken similar steps.

Bennett, who also serves on the Senate Banking Committee, said that without such actions if even a fraction of Americans took $500 out of their credit unions, the result would be "a shortfall of credit unions overall of $16 billion."

Another cause of Y2K fears is the possibility of electric power plants shutting down when computer clocks touch 1 January 2000.

A representative of the North American Electric Reliability Council, or NERC, did his best to assuage the concerns of the audience.

Their worry: Even if Wall Street's computers are Y2K OK, what happens if the electricity dies and the phones fail? Stephen Malphrus, a Federal Reserve Board official, said he lost sleep at night over "these incredible interdependencies in the infrastructure."

"We don't feel there are any types of failures that will jeopardize our ability to provide electricity to our customers," said Gerry Cauley, Y2K project manager for NERC. "A properly tested and repaired unit at the component level does not have a problem that would prevent it from operating."

But not everyone is participating in the industry-wide Y2K project NERC began earlier this year. About 500 power distribution companies -- one-sixth the total -- have not joined. "We also face a huge coordination problem in the distribution area," Cauley said. And of those that signed on, 35 percent still have no written Y2K project plan.

The good news: Among the companies that are participating, 45 percent of systems had been fixed and tested as of 11 November.

Bankers: Prepared for a Panic? Page 2
4:50 p.m. 3.Dec.98.PST

In North America, power generation and distribution is handled through three electrical interconnections, or grids, that include the United States, Canada, and a tiny portion of Mexico. The grids are split up into 10 regions and run by 136 control centers.

"Things may happen. But the expectation is that we'll be prepared for these types of things," Cauley said.

So will the federal government, predicted John Koskinen, the chair of the president's Y2K council. "People are generally concerned about the infrastructure: Will the lights stay on, will you get a dial tone? Thus far, judging by the first assessments being done on the power area, companies have been candid."

Koskinen said the government would be moving from contingency planning to a crisis-management phase.

Responding to a question about electrical-power failures, Koskinen said, "In a crisis and emergency situation, the free market may not be the best way to distribute resources.... If there's a point in time where we have to take resources and make a judgement on an emergency basis, we will be prepared to do that."

Other trends could make the outlook more dismal. Companies like General Motors -- whose chief information officer has called Y2K "catastrophic" -- are likely to stockpile supplies and "set us up for a classic inventory recession," Bennett predicted.

The "urge to stockpile just to be safe is going to hit everyone, " he said, citing the fact that people keep asking him what his own Y2K plans are. "If I dig up my backyard and put in a propane tank, that won't look very good. I have a nephew who is doing that, by the way." But Bennett said he was sweating the most over other countries, which generally are not as Y2K-savvy as the United States. According to Strategic Information Ltd., Russia, China, and much of Africa and South America need major emergency support to survive.

"What's going to happen when whole countries drop off the radar screen with no infrastructure remaining?" Bennett said, noting that global calamity has economic and military implications for the United States. The White House plans to hold two more Y2K summits in spring and summer 1999.

Copyright ) 1994-98

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), December 03, 1998


Sounding the Sirens on Y2K
by Declan McCullagh

4:50 p.m. 3.Dec.98.PST

Emergency agencies have begun to ferret out Y2K bugs from their own equipment but are not yet preparing for electricity, gas, or telephone service failures, says a survey to be released Friday. Less than a third of the 212 fire, police, and medical emergency units that responded to the survey said they had a "specific plan to deal with any potential problems" that might erupt the evening of 31 December 1999.

"I'm a little concerned," said Clark Staten, director of the Chicago-based Emergency Response and Research Institute, which conducted the survey. "We aren't as prepared as we should be." Staten, a former fire chief, said emergency agencies are used to reacting to disasters after they happen -- a habit that leaves them ill-prepared to plan for Y2K. "They're very response-oriented," he said. "I'm sure there are budgetary issues involved, too."

The survey, conducted last month on ERRI's Web site, showed that nearly all respondents understand the implications of Y2K. Three-quarters of them believe it will affect their operations, but only 24 percent have contingency plans to deal with external disruptions.

The survey is not scientific, since it polled only those agencies aware enough of Y2K to visit the ERRI site and agencies that learned about the survey through emergency mailing lists. At risk are 911 dispatch systems, which rely on computers, and communications systems. Motorola, Ericsson, Kenwood, and other large radio manufacturers have said all products sold today are Y2K OK, but some older units will need upgrades.

Government officials are also beginning to fret about social unrest caused by possible electric-power failures or panic over whether computers at financial institutions will crash on 1 January 2000. The United Kingdom has said Y2K failures could cause civil unrest, and one House of Representatives committee has advised President Clinton to consider declaring a national emergency.

Less than half the fire, police, medical, military, and disaster-relief agencies that responded to the survey believe their departments are "effectively prepared to deal" with the millennium bug at this time. Over 63 percent called it "a serious problem, but one that can be solved in time," and 8 percent thought it would be catastrophic.

Staten said too few emergency services have thought seriously about Y2K. "I'd like to see the political leadership in Washington give us some definitive direction.... I'd like to see a definitive statement by a leading fire chief," he said. "I don't know that this is an issue that has been explored well by the chiefs of the various emergency agencies."

He said he hopes the Federal Emergency Management Agency takes the lead in preparing for worst-case scenarios.

Copyright ) 1994-98 Wired Digital Inc. All rights reserved

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), December 03, 1998.

Oops, forgot the above article's URL:


Sounding The Sirens On Y2K

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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), December 03, 1998.


Great information. All of this is worth knowing about. It's this kind of info that keeps me coming to this forum.

One small quibble...

You said, "Sounds like martial law and emergency despotic communism".

Are you saying that if it's January of 2000 and you haven't had electricity for a week, that you'd be upset if the federal government wanted to step in and try to restore your electricity? You're saying you'd still have faith that free market forces would restore your electricity?

-- Kevin (mixesmusic@worldnet.att.net), December 03, 1998.

Kevin, let me tell you a secret. I've worked with the federal government. If it comes down to those clowns having to "step in" and restore our electricity...its OVER...done...kaput.

-- a (a@a.a), December 03, 1998.

I understand that the government is not very efficient. I know that fix-on-failure doesn't work with complex systems.

My point is that while the free market is the best system for general use, it doesn't always work.

If the free market always worked like it's supposed to, then Y2K would have already been taken care of!

-- Kevin (mixesmusic@worldnet.att.net), December 03, 1998.

Kevin, isn't it a mind-blower! It's like I've sort of suspected something like this shaping up in my farthest darkest imaginings, but to see it emerge out of the wisps in hard pixels ... will I wake up in the morning and say, "Ashton! Wake up! I had the weirdest dream ..."

Interesting times, when nightmares start popping up as recommended policies. Yikes!

To address your very important quibble:

If no electricity for a week, in Winter, no, I won't be upset to see the federal government step in and try to restore the electricity. And it's not that I have faith in either the free market OR the govt. I'll be happy to have electricity by any honest peaceful means!

It's that I'm ANGRY and OUTRAGED *NOW* that our federal government, that we pay for, in my case with very hard work, didn't use an ounce of brain or arse power years ago and CORRECT this problem as a matter of sensible considerate policy! Idiots! (Oops, don't wanna get into PMS -- Paul Milne Syndrome ;)

Didn't ANY official hear of "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?" Under what slimy rocks in noxious swamps do these govt androids hatch? No brains, no heart, no elbow grease, nothing there. Yuck.

If the govt can't get itself together, what right do they have to come in and take over the resources? That looks downright "planned." Planning to take over when they themselves are earning "Fs" in key branches? Why didn't they FIX it pronto and then massively INSIST and HELP all businesses FIX IT? To this simple working little person, who is very patriotic, it is obvious the government has entirely failed in its mission and purpose for being.

Tax us til we drop, then whisk away our crutches.

What do I want to take the current govt's place? The great and noble government that is declared in our early founding documents. A free and inventive and nature-respecting democracy made up of loving, generous, fully educated citizens who are completely self-reliant and develop to their utmost potential. A people who worship God as they each individually feel close to Him.

And as for the free market, it won't feel so free when it's chained and bumped by the Feds. What happened to the premise that ingenuity and business solvency would conquer all? Instead we've devolved as a nation into selfish, short-sided greed absolutely blinding us.

If the govt comes in to take over, when it itself can't function, we will truly have the blind leading the blind.

Hope everybody videotapes this one. Can we all show it in court?

Ashton & Leska in Cascadia, where it's snowing tonight, and where the electric company announced they won't have enough power to supply us all during winters. :( [not even referring to Y2K in this blithe announcement]

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), December 03, 1998.

I suspect you would also be upset if the "resources" the gov't was going to "take" for "emergency distribution (aprox quote)" happened to be the 1000 pounds of wheat and the $350 grain mill you have for your family, and told you to collect your hand out of bread at the food line down the street.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -OR - - - - - - - - - - - -

(Whisper) Oh, and by the way, come here little girl, where does daddy keep his gun? Hmmm? I know he said never to tell, but I'm a police man and you can tell me anything. (end whisper)

All right, now. Lets have them and the ammo.

I know I certainly will be more than upset. I've expressed an opinion in a civil disobedience framework before, I can do it again, but I doubt it'll be nonviolent this time.


-- Chuck a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), December 04, 1998.

Martial law -- yeah. When I finally got my mind around the implications of Y2K last May I figured that would be a likely outcome. It could be worse, right? Like No law...

As for the kids informing-- my wife was 7 when Russia occupied her country (1940). The schools got new "compliant" teachers, who always asked the children to tell her about what their parents talked about at home. Even at that age, she knew better than to do that! Some of the children did make that mistake, though. Some of their parents were taken away. Parents also have to learn to be discreet.

Gracie Allen used to say, "You've got to take the bitter with the better!"

Bless all those who live far from town, for they shall build the future.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), December 04, 1998.

The government of this country is utterly corrupt, you can see that from their assassination of Kennedy (himself no doubt a crypto-fascist), the Vietnam war that was waged for business profit with government collusion, Waco, Ruby Ridge, and many other things.

However, we have the government we deserve. The population of this country has gotten to the point that we would surrender 200 years of freedom to get our electricy and gasoline back.

If every household and town were self-sufficient,they'd have no hold over us. The dependence that makes us fear y2k is our own fault, not the government's.


-- Runway Cat (runway_cat@hotmail.com), December 04, 1998.

Staying off that conspiracy subject for a second,

Do you really figure Clinton (the government) can figure out how to distribute power successfully if the power companies can't?

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), December 04, 1998.

Before I was a local cop I worked as a policeman for the government. I want to give you all a hint: Don't underestimate the reach of the government. If they want something the "Rule of Law" will not even slow them down. Your best defense is to "Cache" your supplies so that all that you have is not located in one place. (they can't take it if they can't find it) If they haven't changed their motis operandi they should start with the large cities and even without power the rumors of them doing this will get around fairly fast so you should have plenty of notice.


-- ex-cop (excop@police.com), December 04, 1998.

Amen to that Runaway Cat, Amen to that!

-- Anti-chainsaw (Tree@hugger.com), December 04, 1998.

Of course Clinton can figure out how to distribute the power........

Three watts for me, two watts for you, Four watts for me, two watts for you, Five watts for me, two watts for you,............

Of course, this could cause a revolt. Watt you ask. Will he charge us for this? Powerful men have always preyed on the weaker. When will people start to say, "I ,am pissed off! Will it generate bad feelings? Why, er... no. Angry mobs in the dark. Will they kill or what

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), December 04, 1998.

..."And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand....The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!"

--Alexandr Solzhenitsyn, *The Gulag Archipelago*

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), December 04, 1998.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_btl/19981208_xcbtl_y2k_and_ma.sht ml

WorldNetDaily Exclusive Commentary

Y2K And Martial Law

For those suspecting the federal government is making Y2K millennium bug contingency plans that include the suspension of civil liberties, fears were not allayed by the nation's Y2K czar at his first summit last week.

In answer to a question about electrical-power failures caused by embedded chip problems and other millennium bug breakdowns, John Koskinen, the chairman of President Clinton's Y2K council, said: "In a crisis and emergency situation, the free market may not be the best way to distribute resources. ... If there's a point in time where we have to take resources and make a judgment on an emergency basis, we will be prepared to do that."

Now what does that mean? These guys don't think the free market is the best way to distribute resources in the best of times. But this statement requires some explanation. This is a statement that should prompt congressional hearings -- out in public, not in executive session. This is a statement that brings to mind a history of executive orders mandating emergency presidential powers that would make our Founding Fathers spin in their graves.

Yet, I saw the chilling statement reported only by Wired News, which covered the Y2K council's first summit in San Francisco last Thursday. Nothing in the Associated Press. Nothing in the San Francisco papers. Nothing on the major networks.

Worse yet, even Wired News, which, thank heavens, saw fit to publish the quote, did not choose to lead its story coverage with it.

Now, I can understand government seizing an opportunity for more power in a crisis. It's the nature of government to do just that. What I don't understand is how we could receive so many warnings by government officials of their ominous plans for martial law beginning Jan. 1, 2000 without scrutiny by the press, civil libertarians and other so-called government watchdogs. Why am I like a voice crying out in the wilderness over this issue?

This is, by my count, at least the second major pronouncement by high-ranking members of the Clinton administration that preparations are being made to scrap the Constitution in the event of problems we know are coming on a date just over a year away.

The first, to refresh your memories, came in June, when Sen. Robert Bennett, chairman of the Senate's Year 2000 committee, was interviewing a top Pentagon official, Deputy Defense Secretary John Hamre. Here's how that exchange went:

Bennett: "In the event of a Y2K-induced breakdown of community services that might call for martial law," will the military be ready? Hamre: "We've got fundamental issues to deal with that go beyond just the Year 2000 contingency planning. And I think you're right to bring that up."

Understand that Bennett, a Republican from Utah, wasn't suspiciously asking Hamre if the military was secretly planning a hideous martial law scenario. He was knowingly asking him, apparently hopeful that the military would be prepared to carry out it out.

I know it's too much to ask, but shouldn't the members of the House Judiciary Committee at least have all this in the back of their minds today as they consider articles of impeachment against President Clinton? Is this a leader the nation can trust on the brink of a potential national crisis? Is this a man America can trust with emergency powers?

Americans have come to believe their freedom is a permanent state. When people take their freedom for granted, it is most in peril. Is it not possible, with all we now know about the character of Bill Clinton, that he would attempt to turn such a crisis into a semi-permanent presidency -- one with imperial powers? And, with all we know about the character of the spineless Congress, is it unthinkable to imagine its members abdicating their authority and collaborating in such an insidious scheme?

Am I being paranoid? I don't think so. After all, it's not me who is raising the ugly specter of martial law in the context of the Y2K crisis. It is the United States government -- first in a public meeting between representatives of the legislative and executive branches and now in a public summit convened by the president's Y2K czar. This is not a hallucination, folks. It's reality. Hearings are being conducted. Plans are being made.

Further evidence of this plot comes in the form of Presidential Decision Directive 63, issued by Bill Clinton last May. It calls for the development of a plan to ensure "essential national security missions" as well as general public health and safety by, you guessed it, the year 2000.

The carefully worded directive emphasizes the preservation of order, the delivery of minimum essential services and the maintenance of a "national infrastructure protection system" involving the military, intelligence agencies, law enforcement and the mandatory participation of the "private sector."

Under the directive, the "National Infrastructure Protection Center," which includes the FBI, the Secret Service, other federal law enforcement agencies, the Department of Defense and the intelligence agencies, calls the shots. To me, the cynic, all this sounds like code for martial law.

Not interested in the federal plans? You may have to be. The document states that "it is preferred that participation by owners and operators in a national infrastructure protection system be voluntary." Note that word "preferred." You may be drafted.

The first set of plans from federal agencies were due on Clinton's desk last month. You can bet he won't be holding any press conferences on those details any time soon. I can tell you this news agency will be filing Freedom of Information Act requests for those documents. But, don't hold your breath, this White House claims a broad exemption from the FOIA that none of its predecessors has claimed -- just one more reason for impeachment, if you ask me.

Of course, maybe Y2K will come and go with no major calamities. Would you like to bet you

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), December 09, 1998.

<< Of course, maybe Y2K will come and go with no major calamities. Would you like to bet your freedom on that possibility? >>

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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), December 09, 1998.


Drafting us for labor in martial law?

What is the age limit for drafting?

Would they draft computer programmers, electricity technicians, engineers, medical personnel?

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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), December 09, 1998.

The credit for this futher alert re: martial law comes thanks to Declan McCullagh, a reporter who is awake about Y2K, and posts on this forum sometimes. Thanks, Declan!

Declan has part of an article about USA talking martial law, plus a transcript, from June 1998, up temporarily at:

http:// www.well.com/user/declan/y2k/martiallaw.0698.txt

http:// www.well.com/user/declan/y2k/senate.y2k.0698.txt

And then he gives this URL for an outrageous article today, December 12, 1998, from Canada, which echoes USA + UN "policy decision" :

http: //www.ottawacitizen.com/national/981212/2098082.html

'Martial Law' Rushed For Y2K Chaos

Report Warns Government To Be Ready To Invoke Federal Emergencies Act

David Pugliese, The Ottawa Citizen

The federal government should consider invoking the Emergencies Act, the successor to the War Measures Act, if the millennium bug causes widespread chaos, according to newly obtained government documents.

The report, by the Year 2000 contingency planning group of Emergency Preparedness Canada, calls for orders and regulations for the Emergencies Act to be ready by the end of March.

"In the worst case, we should consider the Emergencies Act a potential source of special powers," urge documents prepared by government in July and August and obtained by the Citizen under the Access to Information Act.

"Among the activities that must be done to meet the problems resulting from Y2000 failures is development of relevant emergency orders and regulations required for the invocation of emergency provisions under the Emergencies Act."

Federal departments are to identify what emergency orders would be needed in their areas of responsibility to deal with a countrywide disaster caused by the millennium bug. Those orders and regulations should have been in place in 1988 -- when the Emergencies Act was brought in to replace the War Measures Act -- but federal departments failed to develop them. While the lack of emergency orders and regulations among federal departments would not have prevented the Emergencies Act from being invoked, it would have meant that any federal response to a large-scale crisis would not have run smoothly.

Defence Minister Art Eggleton, who is in charge of Emergency Preparedness Canada, will also be issued with a step-by-step guidebook on actions to be taken in a "major or catastrophic emergency" caused by the millennium bug, according to the report.

That book will include all the documents needed and the names of provincial officials who should be consulted before the federal government invokes the Emergencies Act.
"The question of whether it will be required or not is one that will have to be determined at the time," Maj. Blakeley said. "Basically, this is saying, 'If it gets to that stage, is everything ready?' "

Maj. Blakeley said all scenarios have to be considered, including the most unlikely one: widespread major problems caused by the millennium bug. He added that the Defence department is confident it will be ready to handle any emergencies associated with the computer glitch.

But the Auditor General has continually warned that the federal government is lacking in its emergency response capabilities....

Jim Hanson, a defence analyst and retired Canadian Army brigadier general, said the Emergencies Act contains the same sweeping powers to deal with unrest and civil emergencies. But he said it is likely such measures are intended more to give powers to civilian agencies, such as police forces, in case there are problems from the millennium bug. "It wouldn't take much under the existing National Defence Act or the 'aid to civil powers' provisions to put military personnel on the streets."
Several months ago the Canadian Forces were told to prepare for the biggest peacetime deployment of troops ever in case computer failures caused by the Year 2000 problem disrupted key services. The plan, dubbed Operation Abacus, also involves the development of rules governing the use of force by soldiers in case they are called upon to assist police in dealing with emergency incidents.

The reports obtained by the Citizen predict the first wave of computer failures could hit Canada on Sept. 9, 1999, because systems might have problems handling that date sequence, which is 9-9-99. The Defence department will activate a national co-ordination centre to handle emergency response to the millennium bug the day before that date, according to the documents.

As part of its preparations, the national co-ordination centre will also run several exercises to test military readiness. In April, federal and provincial agencies in Quebec and Ontario will conduct a three-day training scenario involving a nuclear emergency -- a major test and evaluation of how the federal government and provinces can respond to a large-scale emergency that might result from the millennium bug, according to the Access documents.

In the reports, military officials also raise concern that their ability to help out if the millennium bug causes widespread problems relies heavily on Canada's electrical, transportation, food and water and sewage systems having their own Year 2000 problems under control: "The ability of the (Canadian Forces) to provide civil assistance is highly dependent on the state of preparedness of these infrastructure items since the CF, like everyone else, is highly dependent on smooth delivery of these supplies and services," the documents state.

"Without aggressive action in these industrial and service sectors, the (Canadian Forces) may not be able to make a significant impact across the nation as a force of last resort."

Military officials point out that more than 16,000 troops were needed to deal with the effects of the ice storm that hit Ontario and Quebec this year. But the millennium bug, the report states, "has the potential of creating a demand orders of magnitude greater than this, which are well beyond the CF's capability to respond."

Defence officials called for "aggressive and preventive actions" now to reduce the Year 2000 risk to a more manageable level.

The military will have about 32,000 of its personnel dedicated to Operation Abacus, with thousands more available if needed.

In November, the Commons Public Accounts committee questioned whether the Canadian Forces would be able to deal with countrywide problems that might be caused by the millennium bug.

But several weeks later, a report by Auditor General Denis Desautels found that the critical systems the Defence department needs should computer foul-ups create civil chaos are largely ready. These included systems that support the movement of troops and supplies and handling of communications.

Copyright 1998 Ottawa Citizen

Zowie, folks! What do our forum Canadians think of this? Notice your fellow concerned citizens got this news themselves under the Access to Information Act. Not like your Feds held cozy Town Bake Sales to spread the cheery news. This on the heels of the news coming out of the UN meeting ramps up the ante.

Don't think there'd be all this $$, planning, meetings, and hubris if there was even a *chance* it would only be "a bump in the

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), December 13, 1998.

Are Canadians so calm they took the above with ho-hum? Maybe we should move to Canada: no violence. Is it hard for a US citizen to move to Canada? Doesn't one need $1,000,000 and have to promise to employ two Canadians? It's cold in Canada! But the ppl are so calm ....

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-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), December 13, 1998.

Leska, why the Canadians appear so calm in the face of this news lies in the difference in how we view our government and military, as compared to Americans. Canadians as a whole trust their military to help them in times of emergency. Canada is a pacifist/neutral country. Conspiracy theories about the Canadian government/military is not a national past-time ;)

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), December 13, 1998.

After reading the article in Vanity Fair, it seems strange, almost sinister, that something known long ago can now be "rushed" into Martial Law, as per the last article above. Can stupidity be so pervasive without evil intent?

How otherwise could a known destructive agent multiply everywhere without correction? It brings to mind a vision George Washington had, and makes me wonder whether soon-coming calamities and their aftermaths constitue the third portion of this vision.

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-- Ashton (allaha@earthlink.net), December 13, 1998.

Chris, you make moving to Canada sound attractive! If Canadians have reasons to trust their government and military, all the more power to them all :) But the cold and the taxes ....

Leska xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), December 13, 1998.

The cold is dry so your clothes will keep you warm. Plus, the snow is great to play in during those long winter days :) And the taxes bought lots and lots of straight loooong highways that connect everywhere you wanna go fast, without effort. Just buy a horse ;)

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), December 13, 1998.

"Among respected accounts of the current age is the experience of George Washington, a revelation bestowed on him by a heavenly being during the dark days of the American Revolution, in the year 1777. His was a vision of the future of a great nation arising on the American continent. An angel, "a singularly beautiful female," appeared to him; "a new influence, mysterious, potent, irresistible, took possession of me. ...Everything about me seemed to rarefy, the mysterious visitor herself becoming more airy and yet more distinct to my sight than before....I heard a voice saying, 'Son of the Republic, look and learn.'" A remarkable scene of "a dark, shadowy being like an angel, standing or rather floating in midair, between Europe and America" unfolded a vision representative of the American Revolution and America's ultimate victory. Similarly, a second vision unfolded, predicting the Civil War.

"And again I heard the mysterious voice saying, 'Son of the Republic, look and learn.'" At this, a third vision of great conflict was revealed to him. Then "the dark shadowy angel placed his trumpet once more to his mouth, and blew a long fearful blast. Instantly a light as of a thousand suns shone down from above me, and pierced and broke into fragments the dark cloud which enveloped America. At the same moment the angel upon whose head still shone the word 'Union,' and who bore our national flag in one hand and a sword in the other, descended from the heavens attended by legions of white spirits. These immediately joined the inhabitants of America, who were well-nigh overcome, but who immediately taking courage again, closed up their broken ranks and renewed battle. Again, amid the fearful noise of the conflict, I heard the mysterious voice saying, 'Son of the Republic, look and learn.' As the voice ceased...the dark cloud rolled back, together with the armies it had brought, leaving the inhabitants of the land victorious....

"...I found myself once more gaping upon the mysterious visitor, who, in the same voice I had heard before, said, 'Son of the Republic, what you have seen is thus interpreted. Three great perils will come upon the Republic. The most fearful is the third, passing which the whole world united shall not prevail against her. Let every child of the Republic learn to live for his God, his land and Union.'"

Condensed from "Washington's Vision," National Tribune, Vol. 4, No. 12, December 1880.


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-- Ashton (allaha@earthlink.net), December 13, 1998.

Asked up above a bit: "Are they thinking of this (Y2K and government take-overs) during the impeachment hearing?"

I hope so. Removing a despotic liar from office before he applies martial law is safer than waiting until his private alphabet police are pounding in your door..

-- Robert A. Cook, P.E. (Kennesaw, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), December 14, 1998.

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