Five people in a survivalist retreat. There's a well to be powered, lights to be kept operative, maybe a bit of canned food to be heated. The usual stuff that everyone expects.

How big a generator would you need?

What about solar power? Is that viable, to have your own panels and a solar battery that they charge? If so, how much battery power can be stored?

Presumably, diesel fuel powers generators. How much of it do you need? If you were planning on TEOTWAWKI, you'd want at least a year's worth. Does anyone know how much this would mean, and what it would cost?

Say you threw in a fridge with a freezer, just a small one. Fridges eat power like gluttons..enough to warrant a bigger generator?

Any information would be really appreciated. For those interested, my year-2000 company idea has entered the serious-research stage with every chance of coming into real existence.

--Leo

-- Leo (leo_champion@hotmail.com), December 05, 1998

Answers

If electricity is the only means of obtaining potable water - that's a pretty sad excuse for a survivalist retreat. There are non- electric lights - candles, Alladin lamps, propane lights. Heating canned food can be done via solar or burning wood. The key flaw here is the phrase, "The usual stuff everyone expects." Abandon the concept of "usual" or die.

As for size of generator/fuel or solar panels, how much money do you have?!

Diesel is one option, propane or gasoline is another. Propane stores perfectly, gasoline requires antioxidents, diesel does also as well as needing antifungals.

On deep cycle storage batteries , again how much money do you have?

-- Ken Seger (kenseger@earthlink.net), December 05, 1998.

Leo,

Rather than just answer your questions, I'll point you to a very good site:

http://www.alt-energy.com/index.cgi?page=catalog/designre.html

The work sheets on this site allow you to add or subtract things as you see fit, and to see the effect on your capability. Spend a couple of hours playing with it, and you'll learn a lot about alternate energy.

cheers

-- rocky (rknolls@hotmail.com), December 05, 1998.

Leo:
 
Dealing with your queries one at a time:
 
Q: Five people in a survivalist retreat. There's a well to be powered, lights to be kept operative, maybe a bit of canned food to be heated. The usual stuff that everyone expects. How big a generator would you need?
 
A: The size depends on a number of variables. How much power does the pump require? How deep is the well (determines the starting "surge" requirements)? Is the pump 120 volt or 240 volt? What is the horsepower rating? What other devices will you be powering at the same time? For how long?
 
* Suggestion: If you have a storage tank (or better yet a pressure tank) available, pump the water into a tank (gravity fed if possible). This way you run the generator only to fill the tank.
 
---
 
Q: What about solar power? Is that viable, to have your own panels and a solar battery that they charge? If so, how much battery power can be stored?
 
A: Solar power is very viable .. depending on where you live. The amount of power that can be stored depends solely on the size of your battery system. The number and size of the solar panels will determine how long it takes to fully charge/recharge the battery system.
 
---
 
Q: Presumably, diesel fuel powers generators. How much of it do you need? If you were planning on TEOTWAWKI, you'd want at least a year's worth. Does anyone know how much this would mean, and what it would cost?
 
A: Fuel needs depend on: a) the size of the generator; b) how often you run the generator and; c) at what percentage of full load it's operated. Thus, no way to answer your question. For answers to fuel storage, see: the Ch evron Oil Site for fuel storage info. They say diesel stores for 1-2 years depending on diesel type (#1 or #2), ambient temperature, and other factors. Their site has a lot more detail than can easily be included here.
 
---
 
Q: Say you threw in a fridge with a freezer, just a small one. Fridges eat power like gluttons..enough to warrant a bigger generator?
 
A: You're correct - refrigerators and freezers are often the most power-hungry device in a home. If you must refrigerate, and you're envisioning the outcome of Y2K to be TEOTWAWKI, I'd recommend a properly designed solar/wind power system, batteries, and charge controller .. all connected to a SunFrost brand or Low-Keep brand refrigerator.
 
SunFrost makes a spendy (albeit incredibly efficient) line of refrigerators. They are conventional in appearance (vertical box, freezer on top, refrigerator below) and run on either 12 or 24 volts DC. They also have a 120 volt AC model but in the interest of greater efficiency, I'd recommend a DC model - thus eliminating the need for an "inverter" (a device to convert battery DC to 120 volts AC which adds more complexity and cost to your system, not to mention another point of less-than-100% efficiency).
 
Low-Keep Refrigerators makes a chest-style refrigerator which doesn't lose the cold air when opened. They too have 12 or 24 volt models .. using the same compressor system as the SunFrost.
 
Either line would be an excellent choice, and will use about 90% less electricity than a conventional refrigerator. Expect to pay dearly for the efficiency, ($1,500 to $2,500 depending on the size of the unit), however .. it's FAR cheaper than buying the additional solar panels and battery capacity demanded by a conventional refrigerator.
 
---
 
In conclusion .. I'd like to pose a question and comment as food for thought: Q) If your assessment of TEOTWAWKI turns out to be correct .. won't you eventually run out of fuel for your generator? If so, where will you get more? C) Generators are noisy mechanical devices. Unless you're very remote, they also attract attention. Solar goes forever. The only "maintenance" item would be the batteries .. which require water periodically (if they aren't a "sealed" battery .. not recommended).
 
 
SunFrost - http://www.sunfrost.com
 
Low-Keep Refrigerators - http://www.datawise.net/~lowk eep/
 
Hope this helps.
 
Dan


-- Dan (DanTCC@Yahoo.com), December 05, 1998.

Leo, if you are preparing for TEOTWAWKI why bother with electricity at all? Whether it is generators, fuel, or solar (batteries and the associated controling electronic part) all will either eventually break down or become exhausted and then what do you do?

Why not put that same amount of investment into going completely off grid (even if it is one's own)? Change your diet and food preparation methods so that you do not need a refridgerator. Get an antique kitchen stove for cooking, baking, and water heating. Use kerosene lanterns for light.

-- Mitchell Barnes (spanda@inreach.com), December 05, 1998.

In keeping with the last post...what is the title of the book that I have read mentioned of late..."Learning to live without electricity and liking it"? Is that it...who has read it?

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), December 05, 1998.

Donna,

the book is titled :HOW TO LIVE WITHOUT ELECTRICITY - AND LIKE IT, by Anita Evangelista, published by Loompanics Unlimited...it's a good basic introduction on how to live off the grid (though not neccessarily without electricity).

Arlin Adams

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), December 05, 1998.

If you are really determined to hit the woods - why not buy a modest sized steam engine that can be fueled with wood? Hard to find but not impossible - not even that hard to build or have built - we are talking pre 1850's technology here after all. That can be used for a generator, also for powering almost anything with a axle that needs to spin. They used to be pretty common in farming country - the steam engine would pull up with a milling machine or grain grinder on a wagon behind - and everyone would work like beavers grinding enough grain to last a year all at once.

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), December 05, 1998.

The fact is, I'm not preparing this entirely for myself. I'm an entrepreneur planning to sell "y2k shelters" to intelligent corporate-type people who mightn't have time to set up their own retreats. Although I personally intend to anticipate TEOTWAWKI, I doubt a corporate VP making $3.5 million a year would want to live in a bare-bones shack. On the other hand, my profit margin will depend upon keeping prices to a minimum (by making smart purchasing decisions, not detrimentally cheap ones). And if TEOTWAWKI does eventuate, my customers won't exactly be in a position to ask for their money back. This isn't saying that I intend to sell second-rate service or anything. My primary focus (heavily upgradeable, of course) will be to provide a reasonable level of comfort for a period of about three months, which is as long as the most serious non-TEOTWAWKI estimates would predict problems. My customers will then be able to last for another nine months (food-wise), although with a lesser degree of comfort. I'd also like to provide them with some capability to survive beyond that (when the canned food supplies run out) through agriculture. Not sure if I want to build in the woods. Why?

Forest fires. With no fire brigade, I don't like the odds. Also, hunters. I'm not keen on having a lot of armed killers in my vicinity when the game runs out. And there's not such a great view; it would be harder to spot incoming people in time to prepare. On the other hand, the high availability of fuel WOULD be nice..but not so nice that I'm willing to risk fires and hunters. Right now, I'm looking at two options: In the country, for the purposes of agriculture and comfort, or in the desert, for the purposes of cheap land and security. (Cheap land means more money can be spent on other stuff.) --Leo

-- Leo (leo_champion@hotmail.com), December 05, 1998.

Not to burst your bubble Leo, but...

What can you offer a $3.5 mil per year man that he cannot find, construct, or do better on his own? You're right, this fella ain't gonna live inna shack! You got a HUGE bankroll or what?

Don't piss your money away thinking about making a killing, look out for YOU. That is going to be tough enough.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), December 05, 1998.

Easy. Time.

A 3.5 mil a year man is going to be in a top executive position with plenty of responsibilities. He is not going to enjoy the prospect of having to become fluent in a whole new sphere of knowledge, self-sufficiency. He is not going to want to make the decisions that we are all making (what is the best generator, etc). He's going to appreciate it if an educated professional, or at least a smart guy, can make those decisions for him.

I intend to sell a bare-bones "starter", upgradeable with plenty of options (extra year's food supply, extra bedroom, perimiter fence with motion detectors and razor wire, etc) that can be added on like air conditioning or a CD player on a car. Where do I get the initial capital to start this off with? Good question, but there's always a way if you look hard enough.

As for looking out for myself; no can do, uncle. Need cash to do that. Therefore need some way to make cash. Flipping burgers at $6 an hour ain't gonna bring in enough money soon enough..

--Leo

-- Leo (leo_champion@hotmail.com), December 05, 1998.

The party pooper returns

Sorry Leo, he will just have a $10 per underling fix it for him. These guys don't think like methinks you think they thinks.

As to your finances, get two jobs and work 80+ hours a week to make up, I've done it, it sucks, it really, really sucks, (I've done 7-3 dayjob, home at 4, sleep til 9, work 10 til 6, go to other job, start again) but you're in over your head if you think a 3.5 is gonna come to a $6 per for advice or saving.

Again I say, worry about you. If you ain't started yet on your grand plan, it's too, too late now.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), December 06, 1998.