Okay folks,

I've done some searching on the 'net and can't find references to either hoarding or 'stockpiling' as being illegal or otherwise.

Can someone supply some URL's that explicitly discuss these issues?

I'm really not interested in 'reading between the lines' to infer an intent of a particular order or law. Not looking for conspirency theories or otherwise.

Thanks....

-- jd (hemwat@bellsout.net), December 08, 1998

Answers

jd: This topic keeps cropping up! The paranoia apparently stems from a Clinton Executive Order, which combined several earlier orders into one document. Just as previous orders have since the 1950s, it covers the duties of FEMA in a national emergency. The EO gives FEMA the right to control the distribution of food supplies, if I recall correctly, but nowhere in it does it mention seizing private food supplies house by house, nor does it bar stockpiling personal supplies. Anyone have any other references?

-- jdclark (yankeejdc@aol.com), December 08, 1998.

I think the EO limits you to no more than 30 days' worth of food per family. I'm planning on having 5 families (20 people)... I can just see me now arguing with FEMA at my door, explaining the math of the USDA food pyramid and why I technically need as much food as I have. I get 11 servings of grains per person per day, right? Two of meat?

I'm stocking for a year-- it's expensive.

-- Lisa (stash@lot.com), December 08, 1998.

er, Lisa, if those Emergency and War Powers E.O.s are activated, you most likely wont get a chance to argue about it. At that point the government (not you) gets to decide what constitutes a 30 days supply of food... and they simply take the rest. We're talking a martial law scenario here...oh sure, they'll issue you a scrip that says the government owes you for the following goods...and that will be worth at least the paper it's written on.

I'm still astounded at Koskinen's remarks last thursday in San Francisco:

"Koskinen said the government would be moving from contingency planning to a crisis-management phase.

Responding to a question about electrical-power failures, Koskinen said, ``In a crisis and emergency situation, the free market may not be the best way to distribute resources.... If there's a point in time where we have to take resources and make a judgement on an emergency basis, we will be prepared to do that.''

[from a report by Declan McCullagh that was on the yahoo news site]

Arlin Adams

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), December 08, 1998.

I was so astonished I printed the article out and attached it to a "get a months' worth of stuff, people" letter and sent it to the editor of our local paper. I'm glad I said 30 days and not more...

I still question whether there are enough people to deploy to check out everybody's holdings. They can't even get a census done properly..

-- Lisa (not@work.com), December 08, 1998.

See the following:
 
EO #10998
Federal seizure of all food supplies and resources, public and private and all farms and equipment;
 
The entire context of EO #10998 can be found at:
http://www.lib.umich.edu/libhome/Documents.center/jfkeo/eo/10998 .htm
 
 
EO #11051
11051 is interesting; it authorizes FEMA near-total power in times of "increased international tension of economic or financial crisis", which certainly would have Y2K implications. An "emergency" does not have to be defined as another Hurricane Hugo or massive Midwestern flooding.
 
You can find the entire context of EO #11051 at:
http://www.lib.umich.edu/libhome/Documents.center/jfkeo/eo/11051 .htm
 
 
EO #10998 and others are not aimed at anti-hoarding but rather at seizure or confiscation of items and facilities "to provide a state of readiness in these resource areas with respect to all conditions of national emergency, including attack upon the United States". You'll find most 'seizure' legislation ends with this phrase. These Executive Orders don't define what specifically constitutes a "national emergency" ... and maybe this is as it should be. The specifics on hoarding are left up to the individual states.
 
 
You can find links to individual states' statutes (by state) at:
http://www.millennium-ark.net/News_Files/INFO_Files/state.html
 
 
There are also anti-hoarding references under Title 50 War And National Defense, Section 2072. Stripping off the legalese, it says no one shall accumulate goods in excess of "reasonable amounts" for business, personal or home consumption which could become scarce, "goods" to be designated by the President. Penalties for doing so may result in fines of not more than $10,000 and/or one year imprisonment.
 
Since Title 50 expired on September 30, 1998, does this mean we are home free? Not with the implementation of EO #13083, the "Federalism" EO, and this could be one explanation for its existence. There is also state anti-hoarding legislation. The bases are pretty well covered.
 
At times of "declared emergencies", each governor cedes (gives over) authority of his/her state to the federal government. When a governor declares it for his state, he becomes the delegated representative of the federal government according to an Interstate Compact Agreement.
 
Bottom line? Clinton delegated authority to FEMA to run the show however it sees fit if he declares a national emergency. Who will determine how much food we can have in our house? FEMA. And the amount depends on the needs of all...not your needs or my needs...but the "welfare" of the needy. Even though federal legislation does not directly address anti-hoarding, goods can be seized if national circumstances are felt to warrant it whether or not amounts stored are deemed excessive in your state's eyes.
 
 
An added comment .. nowhere in the context of these Executive Orders did I find any reference to "30 days" .. or any other specific period of time. It simply has a vague reference stating "no one shall accumulate goods in excess of "reasonable amounts" for business, personal or home consumption...". Anything beyond what is deemed "reasonable amounts" (whatever that is) .. can be confiscated.
 
You decide.
 
Quote and paraphrase credit to:
ht tp://www.millennium-ark.net/News_Files/INFO_Files/EOs.html
 
 


-- Dan (DanTCC@Yahoo.com), December 08, 1998.

What the hell happened to the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights -- unlawful search and seizure?

I don't care how many laws are passed, these EOs are not constitutional. Neither is the FDIC's attempt to prevent you access to your on property on deposit in your local bank.

What are we actually defending here? If our Constitution is suspended in times of emergency -- when we actually need it most -- then what's the point? Soon, every leaf in the wind will declared a national emergency and we may just as well cut to the chase and go get fitted for our chains!

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), December 08, 1998.

"'m really not interested in 'reading between the lines' to infer an intent of a particular order or law. Not looking for conspirency theories or otherwise. " -jd

Trying to get out of doing your homework JD? ;)

The answer I derive from all the above and this key statement from Koskinen "If there's a point in time where we have to take resources and make a judgement on an emergency basis, we will be prepared to do that.'' is there is presently no law to stop you from stockpiling/hording, but when the government decides it's an emergency, anything you possess is technically theirs. Stockpile or no.

-- Chris (catsy@pond.com), December 08, 1998.

No, I *think* I did my homework on this one, that's why I posted the question...

EO's or not, the implimentation of any 'cupboard checking' MIGHT only work in truely urban areas. Distance/space = 'why bother with 'em .' Besides, I can't see any agency spending limited resources (aircraft/vehicles and personnel) to visit my farm and take 100 lb of goodies.

Maybe a better idea is to outlaw shovels, hoes, rakes, and such - that will make 'em run to the food trucks!

But say...how about we all become CCC (contracted cupboard checkers) we'll only charge 20% of what we find and them gov'ment folks can proceed on to do other things...

-- jd (hemwat@bellsouth.net), December 08, 1998.

What happened to the United States Constitution...?

Are you being serious asking this question...? As far as I know it hangs in a museum doesn't it...? Who during this current time still takes the constitution serious...???

Whoever the ruling power was over the last 100 years has adjusted the constitution to their liking... Look at E.O.'s... Taxes... Social Security Numbers.... Gun Laws....

Oh well... I have nothing to hide... Only people that have something to hide are bothered by all those new laws...

-- not this time (regular@poster.com), December 08, 1998.

Anyone here remember WWII? Especially those who spent any time in Europe? If so, you may remember buying or selling items or services for, or buying them with, cigarettes. Or the government strictly limiting how much gasoline or butter you were allowed to own. Calling concern about the post-Y2k implementation of hoarding laws "paranoia" merely demonstrates how wet behind the ears you are. The constitution has been recinded by "drug war" policies. Period. There is no 4th amendment anymore - they might as well cut it out with a pair of scissors, few would miss it. The second is next. Look at those E.O.s: war doesn't need to be declared; there need only be a sufficient level of perceived threat. All you Brady-bunch-watching, biscuit-eating yuppies who have never known hunger or total war, now telling me I'm paranoid because I think government might steal from it's people... at least there are some things to look forward to in the new millennium.

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), December 08, 1998.

Only people that have something to hide are bothered by all those new laws...

What an interesting perspective.

Sure, if you believe that the government and their minions are entitled to conduct ad hoc rectal exams at their whim.

Do not believe for a second that you're so lilly white that YOU have nothing to hide. EVERYONE has something to hide. Just ask Herr Hitler.

Let the camel's nose under the tent flap and pretty soon you've got more camel than you know what to do with.

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), December 08, 1998.

We are doomed.

A couple of evil trolls throw a wrench in the forum gears and what do I hear?

We need a moderator! We need a way to identify imposters! How can we censor the nasty ones? Who can we turn to?

The bleating of people who want to have somebody else protect their sensitive minds, rather than just ignore. How will 'we' act when really bad stuff starts? Looks to me like everybody will run to big brother for protection.

We are screwed!

Good-bye Constitution! I'll miss what was left of you.

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), December 08, 1998.

Them 'as has guns can to unto us whatever they wish. However, it would be odd, in the event of FEMA takeover of the country, to send us down to the camps for 'hoarding' in the light of these words of wisdom from FEMA's own documentation (http://www.bicomnet.com/community/disaster.html)

"In the unlikely event of a military attack or some other national disaster, you may need long-term emergency food supplies. The best approach is to store large amounts of staples along with a variety of canned and dried foods. Bulk quantities of wheat, corn, beans and salt are inexpensive and have nearly unlimited shelf life. If necessary, you could survive for years on small daily amounts of these staples. "

-RC

-- Runway Cat (runway_cat@hotmail.com), December 08, 1998.

jd wrote: >Oh well... I have nothing to hide... Only people that have something >to hide are bothered by all those new laws...

Wrong. I have nothing to hide.

Doesn't it bother you one whit that the guvmint has now intruded into our lives to the extent that they want to track our spending/banking practices? Hell, the guvmint would like to have complete control over us all. It's impossible to do given so many people in this country, but they will probably die trying.

Just what we really need in our country are more laws. Yeah right! We have enough stupid ones on the books already. Do some research. You will be amazed at the plethora of absolutely insane laws on the records. Absolute insanity.

The sad thing is, we *let* them do this. I don't know the answer to stop it though. Wish I did. I would be at the forefront fighting it if I knew what to do! I wish someone would start a real true grassroots organization and somehow figure out a way to toss 'em all out on their butts and start over. I'd be willing to volunteer many hours of my time for something like this. I don't see it happening though. And no...I can't start it. I am a nobody. Nobody knows me. I got no money to fund it, and well...you get the picture.

So, I remain constantly frustrated over it; but I have often wondered when the American people will get fed up enough to revolt. Can you hear the pot beginning to bubble? I certainly hope so. I hope it boils over so hot and so furious, that all the *career politicians* run for their lives, along with the *bean counters* and *career civil servants* whose jobs depend upon inventing more stupid laws and ways to intrude upon our lives.

Why wouldn't this bother any honest citizen? This is just plain snooping into things that aren't the guvmint's bidness. Period.

Remember that old document hanging on the wall? That piece of paper that says "We the people............."?

Argh.

Bobbi +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "It's fun to do the impossible" ---Walt Disney--- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Y2k? http://www.buzzbyte.com/ Got water? Got Beans? Take the Y2k Preparation Quiz!

-- Bobbi (volfnat@northweb.com), December 08, 1998.

Bobbi

Not perfect, but trying.

http.//www.lp.org/

-- Uncle Deedah (oncebitten@twiceshy.com), December 08, 1998.

The *famous* Uncle Deedah finally replied to something I said, with

>Not perfect, but trying. >http.//www.lp.org/

heheh. Yep I am a member already. I am a dues-paying member even. :-) I just get soooo frustrated over this whole topic. Bobbi +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "It's fun to do the impossible" ---Walt Disney--- +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Y2k? http://www.buzzbyte.com/ Got water? Got Beans? Take the Y2k Preparation Quiz!

-- Bobbi (volfnat@northweb.com), December 08, 1998.

Realistically, how many government officials would it take and how long to search every single household in America looking for hoarded away food? Store away as much as you can because the likelihood of the feds knocking on your door is nil, but thugs and gangs yes!

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), December 08, 1998.

Hey folks,

Please read the original post. And careful with the way things are quoted in your response.

jd (who's not the message board police - he just doesn't want to be misquoted...)

-- jd (hemwat@bellsouth.ne), December 09, 1998.

I thought everyone could hear my sarcasm drip from my post, but I guess I was not clear enough.

My point was that the sheeple always say... Oh, it's okay.. I don't have anything to hide...

Enough of this though... If you want to talk about this some more go to http://www.freerepublic.com/ click on the latest on whitewater thread.... you will enjoy that forum immensly.

Otherwise... God bless all... and stock up...

P.S. Did you know that just talking about a revolution is illegal and can land you in jail...?

-- somewhere south of the border (regular@poster.com), December 09, 1998.