This discussion started on another thread but I though it was interesting so I continue it here. From Genesis KJV:

10:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

(They were building a tower, aspiring to reach heaven to become godlike)

10:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

(Sounds like global connectivity to me -- can you say World Wide Web?)

10:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

(From Websters: con7found 1 a. archaic : to bring to ruin : DESTROY. So, it sounds like, man has become preoccupied with something that God deems inappropriate and He acts accordingly. I think this is referred to in other versions as the "curse of 1000 tongues". )

The Book of Life is filled with allegories and veiled prophecies. Is this reference in Genesis a coincidence or a synchronicity of the highest order?

-- a (a@a.a), December 09, 1998

Answers

way to go, a. I'm ambiguous religiously but was raised a Christian, and I believe anything under the sun is possible. And it sure do make sense, don't it?

-- Hmmmm... (youmayberight@whoknows.com), December 09, 1998.

i personally think the bible is pretty dumb and boring. i could read the history of the world in a pile of dirty laundry if i realy wanted to. the bible is just a book of history and stories written by PEOPLE and that's all. yea, some of the stories are relevant to your life, but really, quit living in the past.

-- god (stuck@heaven.com), December 09, 1998.

Virtually every act of barbarism, every act of cruely and every war that was ever fought, was the result of prejudices and fears against those of a different race, colour and most of all, religious belief.

We fight and kill and hate because we do not understand others. More people have been killed, tortured and displaced from their homes in the name of God than for any other reason. All of this because much of mankind (Especially fundamentalists of all religions) insist that only they have the truth and every one else can jolly well be tortured.

And yet, one incident reported in one book of the Bible, the Tower of Babel incident, continues to be regarded as God's will for all people for all times.

Do you people realize that you blaspheme the Creator when you constantly insist that he wants confusion. Can you not see the idiocy of saying that a God who has given us the intelligence and desire to understand others and live in harmony with them only created us that way so he could trash it once we had built it?

No, methinks many of you actually desire chaos and war. Misunderstanding scripture allows you to cling to your idols of violence and hate.

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), December 09, 1998.

Craig: maybe the world man has built is not as perfect as you might think. This may be the Creator's way of making us ask the important questions.

-- a (a@a.a), December 09, 1998.

You're missing the point altogether..........

Yes, the world is far from perfect.........

But it is the attitude of wanting to keep our hates and prejudices, the attitude that we alone have the only recipe for perfection, that is the cause of the problems.

Claiming that God wants us to always speak different languages and hates it when we work together, is the attitude that has caused our problems.

Claiming that God wants this separation of peoples and languages is the same as claiming that God supports the situation in the former Yugoslavia and Somalia etc. It is our insistance of maintaining these differences in the name of God that causes our wars, disease and famines.

Hate, by any other name, is still hate.

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), December 09, 1998.

The Bible is NOT dumb and boring!

And I have read about 2/3 of it. It's not just a history book. It's a road map for the behavior of mankind.

The Old Testament is filled with stories of Israel as a nation vacillating between following the laws God gave to Moses, which permitted them to prosper and succeed and in worshiping false idols, which were all around them (just like today).

The New Testament is filled with a model for behavior that Jesus Christ provides for us. It's a tough model. Most Christians aren't even close. Throughout history there are probably just a handful of people who you could even say came anywhere near what Jesus was asking for. People like Mother Teresa, St. Nicholas, Albert Schweitzer. And these people are famous beyond their years, because they chose to live the life of Christ, rather than falling prey to the sin of the day.

Now we have a challenge before mankind called Y2K. I can tell you this. The collective behavior of mindkind, whether they chose to live the life of Christ, or act like primitive animals following "Darwin's law" will determine whether Y2K will be TEOTWAWNI or just a short/mid term inconvenience.

-- Glen Austin (gdaustin@aol.com), December 09, 1998.

Christ consciousness, seems the better way to go for Y2K.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), December 09, 1998.

Also Budda consciousness (same thing), and so on.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), December 09, 1998.

Aw Diane..........

Watch it.......The fundie police will be all over you now!

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), December 09, 1998.

It's a 'synchronicity of the highest order' in my opinion, a. The Tower of Babel and its modern equivalent Y2K isn't so much a matter of God's will or God wanting confusion. It's about using technology without having the wisdom or understanding of technology's implications and limitations.

The limitation of technology is that it's only as helpful as the understanding of those who use it. We have technology but it doesn't mean we're any smarter than we used to be. Do we have the wisdom to use genetic engineering?

The connection between Y2K and the Tower of Babel is no coincidence. Technology has been increasing exponentially since the mid-1700s. Where are we headed? It depends on what we allow ourselves to see. We make choices out of love or out of selfishness.

I often refer to this as 'observer created reality'. Quantum physics talks about the outcome of an event influenced by an observation. As a Christian I call it being a witness to what you see when you walk in the light.

IMHO we're headed for a situation similar to the last few minutes of the movie 'Ghostbusters'. The Babylonian god asks the four to 'choose the form of the destructor' that will manifest itself according to their thoughts. What will we choose?

Good subject choice, a. You're on my wavelength.

-- Leonardo (fibonacci@goldenratio.phi), December 09, 1998.

a.

speaking as a conservative Christian - yes, I believe that there is a significant chance that y2k could be a modern Babel equivalent. I'd suggest that due to the conceit of multiple parties, including those who think that holding absolute standards constitutes hatred or bigotry; those who think that the existance of absolute standards gives them license to commit hatred or bigotry against other people; and those who have been misled into thinking themselves capable of becoming pseudogods; God Himself (and yes, I meant the masculine pronoun - no appology offered)is allowing such people to run their culture and society into the ground. It's happened before, and until Jesus returns in triumph; there's every possibility it will happen again.

Arlin Adams

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), December 09, 1998.

Arlin,

Good answer. Yes, many who claim to be believers in the Messiah do NOT do the things he said to do (Luke 6:46). Does that make Christianity invalid? No.

If we all did what the Bible tells us to do, this earth would be a utopia. If we all loved our neighbors as we love our own selves (Lev. 19:18; Luke 10:27; Rom. 13:9-10; Gal. 5:14; James 2:8), our problems would disappear. But instead, mankind trusts in our intelligence and in our creations to satisfy OUR desires. Selfishness is the rule of the day. In this age, God has become simply one of many "gods" to most people.

One's true god is the thing which ones serves (Matt. 6:24). Anyone who is even remotely honest will admit that in our modern society, "mammon" (material goods, property, wealth) is the true god. There will come a point when the one true God (John 17:3) will no longer tolerate the idolatry of our society.

I personally believe that Y2K is that point. I won't have to wait too much longer to see if my view is correct.

-- Nabi Davidson (nabi7@yahoo.com), December 09, 1998.

I thought theists could blame Satan for the bad things that happen, rather than blame their all-loving God. Aren't you all supposed to believe in the horn'd one? (I mean "belive in" as in "supposed to exist" not as in "worship him, do strange things to cows with laser beams.)

-- humpteeedumb-t (12345,678910,1112@sesamestreet.com), December 10, 1998.

Religion and "god" were created by PEOPLE because PEOPLE are afraid to die. Created becaues of fear. Believed because of hope. Pure and simple.

Used by the power hungry to control and exploit the masses.

Any debater about this or that that calls on the "authority" of "god" the bible, the koran, to bolster his argument is pissing in the wind.

"God" isn't bringing things down. It is human stupditity. Humankind has been around much, much less time than the dinosaurs. It has yet to be demonstrated that our so-called "intellignce" is a viable evolutionary characteristic. Wake up! Reality doesn't give a sh*t if I, you, any particular person, group, government, or even any paticular species -- or any species -- survives.

I'm tired of all you Christians debating how many angels can dance on the head of a blue tip match.

-- stamper (stamp@outstupdity.com), December 10, 1998.

Right on, Stamper. You have stated my feelings exactly. There will be no god-given miracles coming down the pike.

-- Nancy (taurus@webtv.net), December 10, 1998.

Craig wrote: "More people have been killed, tortured and displaced from their homes in the name of God than for any other reason." Sorry, Craig, not true--not even close. More people have been killed in this century alone in the name of atheistic ideologies (Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot) than have been killed in the name of religion throughout all of history. Does that mean faith-inspired atrocities are OK? Of course not. But it does point a very Judeo/Christian concept (one which has been dismissed by far too many people in our generation): the depravity of man. We are sinful. The evidence is overwhelming. Even when we are seeking after the truth and attempting to draw closer to our Creator, we screw it up royally. This is why we need a Savior. We can't save our own sorry butts on our own. Praise Jesus.

-- bill dunn (bdunn@snet.net), December 10, 1998.

Nabi wrote -- If we all did what the Bible tells us to do, this earth would be a utopia. --

Wrong!! Sounds like you're obsessed with "perfecting the flesh". Might wanna read Paul's Letters a bit more.

--If we all loved our neighbors as we love our own selves (Lev. 19:18; Luke 10:27; Rom. 13:9-10; Gal. 5:14; James 2:8), our problems would disappear.--

Wrong again Nabi. Things would be better but our problems would not disappear. While in this age, we are subject to the laws of this age, which includes the cycle of life and death. Disease is an unfortunate part of this reality as is pain.

--But instead, mankind trusts in our intelligence and in our creations to satisfy OUR desires.--

Same old silly argument that often rears its silly head. Our brain and ability to create thoughts and our intelligence were given to us by God. Why? To use of course. Are you advocating that stupidity is better in God's eyes. You trust in your intelligence every day. The reason you don't put your hand on a hot stove is that your intelligence says "Don't do it Nabi, you will get burned". Trusting in our God-given intelligence is a good thing. Also, our desires are good things given to us by God. We have the desire to eat, to sleep, to learn, to have sex, to love etc. Why is 'desire' such a dirty word in fundie circles?

Nabi again -- Selfishness is the rule of the day. In this age, God has become simply one of many "gods" to most people.--

You're rambling Nabi. Certainly there is selfishness, but it is not the rule of the day. All over the world, there are millions of parents that spend their lives raising their children and millions of spouses serving their mates.

Also, let's be honest as to why God has become simply one of many "gods" to most people. Simply because the church has trashed and perverted the real character of God through bad translation and deliberate changes in scripture to the point where He appears to be a vindictive and controlling tyrant with schizophrenic tendencies. There is no wonder people look for another God after the butchering job that has been done to God's character by the church.

Nabi again -- One's true god is the thing which ones serves (Matt. 6:24). Anyone who is even remotely honest will admit that in our modern society, "mammon" (material goods, property, wealth) is the true god. --

Yup, here's a terrible translation in action.......First of all, material goods, property and wealth in Israel were given as rewards to them when they obeyed God. A godly man was a wealthy man. That system was called the law. When Israel disobeyed God, they suffered physical loss also. If having possessions was such a bad thing, then God obviously screwed up with his Old Testament incentive program.

Let's talk about what Mammon really is.....First of all, it is not translated as material goods, property, wealth etc. Mammon was in fact a monetary system, the principle of which says that 'If you do this, then I will do that' or 'If you give me that, then I will give you this'. It's a system of how you pay for things.

Today, those that 'serve' Mammon, are those (the majority of the Christian church) that are still under the old covenant (although they don't think they are). That is to say, they think that because they do 'this', God will give them 'that' or God will give them eternal life because they said the sinners prayer. etc. Mammon says that you get something because you give something.

However, those that have truly come to understand the new covenant know that God's gift of eternal life has been given to ALL at no cost to them. Mammon has been defeated. If God required anything of you, then it would not be a gift he has given you, but rather something he has sold you on credit that you can pay off in installments of Bible reading, prayer and self flagelation. The ironic thing is most Protestants think they have broken the chains of Rome, when in fact all they have done is re-invented and renamed them.

Nabi once again -- There will come a point when the one true God (John 17:3) will no longer tolerate the idolatry of our society.--

The idolatry that most concerns God is the idolatry of the church......the idolatry of claiming that only their church, or denomination, or little group, actually have eternal life when God himself has already clearly ordered that not only is it His desire to save all mankind, not only is it His will to save mankind, not only has he promised eternal life to all mankind, but in fact has already accomplished it through Jesus Christ. You cling to your idol of creating God in the image of Baal. You cling to your idol of destruction after God has already promised to restore all His creation.

Nabi finally wrote -- I personally believe that Y2K is that point. I won't have to wait too much longer to see if my view is correct. --

If you're waiting for God's judgement, you're about 2000 years too late! God judged himself for us at Calvary. Completely. End of Story. If God has any judgement left in him, then the cross was a fiasco of the highest order. He now operates only under one covenant, the covenant of love. It is impossible to operate under love and wrath at the same time. Read 1st Corinthians 13 for a proper definition of love. One of the characteristics of it is, "Love keeps NO RECORD of wrongs".

Your belief in an angry God proves you have not yet received the light of understanding. Your God is in reality, Mammon. This is in no means a slant against you or anyone else, as it is impossible to receive this understanding until God's appointed time for you anyway. Be assured, however, that God's promise to save all applies to you as well.

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), December 10, 1998.

Well spoken, Craig. Amen!

-- Leonardo (Fibonacci@goldenratio.phi), December 10, 1998.

Craig,

I've read Paul's letters, but you're right, I probably do need to read them some more. I'm sorry you so thoroughly misunderstood my point (and apparently the whole point of the new covenant also). To keep from rambling any further, I will decline to refute your post point by point, as you obviously felt the need to do to mine. However, I will admit the one thing you and I seem to agree on: God will save all of mankind through His son.

However, Craig, God will save them FROM their sins, not IN their sins. There is still a price to be paid for those who refuse to obey God. God's grace does not allow us to continue to live in sin (Rom. 6:1-2). Maybe you should also read Paul's letters again (that is if you can admit that you may not yet have all understanding).

-- Nabi Davidson (nabi7@yahoo.com), December 10, 1998.

Craig, your theology is pretty messed-up. I would suggest you actually read the New Testament before making so many statements about what it says. Don't want to add too much fuel to the fire on this forum so I'll simply suggest that you look at the fifth chapter of Acts (Ananias and Sapphira were judged and killed supernaturally for lying to the Holy Spirit) before concluding that God has put aside all judgement because of the cross. Sin will always be judged.

Jesus indeed paid the price for our sins by His death on the cross in order to offer a new covenant, but only for those that agree to enter into that new covenant. As with any covenant, it involves contributions from both sides (otherwise it would be called a gift). Jesus cleanses us from our sins and offers eternal life with Him in heaven, and we surrender our lives and agree to allow Jesus to live in us and through us. That means putting aside sin and the sin nature (read all of the book of Romans), and living a life in obedience to our Heavenly Father's will.

Also read Romans 11:22 "Consider therefore the kindness AND sternness of God". You can't separate God's love and God's justice. Both are forever part of His nature. It is not duality as you suggest for both to exist in Him at the same time. God is both merciful and just. He will judge sin, but He would rather show mercy to all who will embrace His Son. It is not enough to say "God is love" and let people continue in sin doing whatever they want in defiance to God's nature and ways. That leads to eternal death, and God doesn't want that for anyone. Jesus said, "If you love me, obey me". Love and obedience go hand-in-hand. If we remain in disobedience, we show that we truly do not love Him and are not partakers of His covenant. As Jesus said to those claiming to know Him yet demonstrating no obedience to His ways, "Depart from me you workers of inquities."

-- David (David@BankPacman.com), December 10, 1998.

This sounds like it's turning into the ol' faith vs. works debate. Fine. Maybe I'll learn something here. Does anyone care to comment on whether or not someone who knows Jesus can sin?

-- Kevin (mixesmusic@worldnet.att.net), December 10, 1998.

Kevin,

Of course Christians can slip up and sin. But they should not practice sin as a way of life. Christ's sacrifice covers those sins when one repents ("turns around") and asks for forgiveness.

-- Nabi Davidson (nabi7@yahoo.com), December 10, 1998.

Sure Kevin, honest questions deserve honest answers.

1 John 1:8-9 says, "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

Yes, we still sin. Being a disciple of Jesus does not automatically remove the tendency or desires for sin from our nature. The goal is to put aside the sin and die to the sin nature (those desires) and live for God in accordance with His ways. When we slip up and yield to sin, we have to confess it to God and ask for forgiveness. If our repentance is genuine, then we'll turn from that sin and return to God's ways and the scripture quoted above tells us that God will forgive us.

This is not in any way related to trying to earn God's love. God loves us unconditionally and it cannot be earned. But if we truly love God, then our desire is to please Him and obey Him. If we don't love God, then we have no part of His kingdom. He loves us so much that He allowed His only begotten Son to suffer and die on the cross in order to offer us salvation. The least we can do is to accept and return His love through our obedience.

-- David (David@BankPacman.com), December 10, 1998.

One last post on this subject........hopefully some of Gospel DGI's will move one step further towards becoming a GI.

Nabi wrote -- . There is still a price to be paid for those who refuse to obey God. God's grace does not allow us to continue to live in sin (Rom. 6:1-2). --

The wages of sin is death. Jesus defeated death however on the cross, for ALL people. Paul asks, "Should we.....or Shall we......continue in sin .......(from memory so don't chew my head off if your version is slightly different). We SHOULD not, however the nature of grace does allow us to continue in sin. If there were a penalty for continuing acts of sin, first of all, we would all endure the penalty and secondly, it would not be grace, but rather a system of works that would be in effect. God is only interested in our obedience if we obey because of our appreciation for His non-retractable gift so to speak. Obedience out of fear is simply another form of works.

To David,

Ananias and Saphira received punishment in the physical realm. They, however, like every other human being, are included in the "Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess......." You need an unerstanding of the concept of 'fire' in scriptural terms. God is not interested in tormenting anyone forever. All God's corrections (punishments) are for the benefit of the one being purified. The symbol of fire relates to purification, where the dross is burned off, leaving only that which is good and acceptable in the eyes of the Lord. This image of a pissed off white-bearded man in the sky was developed by the church starting around 300AD and scripture has been modified to add credence to this blasphemous doctrine.

David also wrote -- Jesus indeed paid the price for our sins by His death on the cross in order to offer a new covenant, but only for those that agree to enter into that new covenant. As with any covenant, it involves contributions from both sides (otherwise it would be called a gift--

Your whole concept of the new covenant is royally screwed up.....Under the old covenant, the two parties involved were God and man. Under the new covenant, the two parties involved are God and Jesus. Man has nothing whatsoever to do with being a party to the covenant. We are simply the beneficiaries of this covenant. This was clearly foreshadowed in the Old Testament where God put (can't think of who it was offhand) to sleep. He then swore by His own name to keep the covenant forever. The reason God put him to sleep, was that God new that man could never be trusted to keep his part in the covenant, so the only way to provide salvation to all was for the covenant to be 'signed' by only God himself. In other words, you have no contribution to your salvation. It is in fact a gift, and called a gift many times in scripture e.g. "The gift of God is eternal life......".

To Kevin who asked -- Does anyone care to comment on whether or not someone who knows Jesus can sin? --

Great point Kevin.....this verse has caused much consternation and confusion to many people.

First of all, let's be honest about two straightforward truths. #1 - Sin is anything that falls short of absolute perfection in God's eyes. In God's eyes, a little white lie and murdering a school bus load of children are both sin.

#2 - Every single believer in the world has committed many 'acts of sin' since their 'salvation'. I've only ever met one person who claims they have never committed an act of sin since their 'day of salvation' and this guy was the meanest s.o.b. you'd ever want to meet!

To try and tightrope around these clear facts, some make mickey mouse differentiations between sin and a pattern of sin. This is, of course, is not scriptural in the least and clearly violates the fact that one tiny indiscretion causes death if we are judged by the Law.

The answer clearly is this. Any act of sin, past, present or future, that can be attributed to us, has been transmuted to Jesus. The sin has already been judged, and the price for it paid in full. You cannot sin because that is not the criteria used in judging you any more. You cannot sin in God's eyes any more. The Book of Hebrews is very specific about this indeed. It shows us that if any sin whatsoever could be attributed to us, that Christ would have to be crucified again in order for the sin to be forgiven. That would be crucifying Christ afresh, and is a major affront to God.

The biggest fallacy the church has, is the need for continuous confession of sin. There is only one verse in the whole of the new testament in 1st John that talks about "confessing our sin". And that scripture passage is a clear reference not to a continual confessing, but rather a summary of the salvation message, the point in time whether in this age or another age, that all mankind come to the understanding that we were in need of forgiveness, and Christ died to gain that forgiveness for us. No where, in all the writings of Paul or anywhere else in the Gospels, is there instructions to confess our sins regularly. The Book of Hebrews makes it clear that this is an abomnination and clearly impossible to be forgiven twice or more. Dozens of times, when the early chuch groups such as the Corinthians have been caught committing acts of sin such as adultery, jealousy, lying, sleeping with their mothers, getting drunk during communion etc., Paul merely reminded them that it was not proper behavior and that it was displeasing to God who had purchased them with a price. NEVER, were they threatened with hell and NEVER were they told to confess their sins.

Two things the Apostle Paul never mentions........Eternal Torment and The need to confess our sins.......Two things the modern church never stops talking about... Eternal Torment and The need to confess our sins.......Go figure!!

Even under the law, Israel only were required to confess her sins once a year......

The early church never confessed their sins........they were under the new covenant where it was not only necessary, but blasphemous.

Rome kicked into gear........and before you knew it, confessing became necessary......once a week.

Later in history, Baptists et al took the error one step further and lo and behold, confession once a day just before you went to bed.

Of course, the modern day Pentecostals got even more 'spiritual' (in bondage) and taught that you should confess your sin twenty four hours a day, whenever something came to mind. Of course, they're still trying to figure out whether it is the voice of God convicting them or the Devil condemning them. Based on scripture, I'd say it's certainly not God they're hearing from.

And finally, David........

You wrote --. God loves us unconditionally and it cannot be earned. But if we truly love God, then our desire is to please Him and obey Him. If we don't love God, then we have no part of His kingdom. --

You know, you've probably parrotted that off so many times you've never stopped to examine how insane that statement is. First you say, rightfully, that God loves us "unconditionally'.......but then you add a condition to it "if we love God".......

That's sheer lunacy. Unconditional love has NO conditions.

It's as sensible as saying "I'll give you one million dollars unconditionally. The only condition is that you ......."

'nuf said about that.

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), December 10, 1998.

Craig, so in your world the Hitler's and Stalin's are going to heaven? Yeah right! You think God advocates and tolerates a world where everyone is allowed to do whatever they wanted to whomever they wanted with no eternal consequences. Sorry, but that's not the Truth and no serious student of the Bible believes that.

Obviously we can never come to agreement. The basis of my theology is the Bible -- all of it. You claim the Bible has been modified. Please cite examples and proof. If you truly believe that, how can you trust any of it? Have you simply carved off your own scriptures that make sense to you and that allow you to pursue the lifestyle you want with no accountability to God. Do you just skip the many parts that contradict your beliefs?

Your logic is pretty rusty as well. It IS possible to unconditionally love someone yet still expect obedience from them and even punish them for disobedience. Ask any parent. Your love for them is not diminished just because they disobeyed. Your love is much bigger than that, at least it should be. The very fact that you discipline them for the disobedience is a demonstration of that love. When I give my four year old time-out for smacking is 12 month old brother in the face, I don't stop loving him. And the reason I discipline him is to teach him right from wrong. The discipline itself is an act of love.

-- David (David@BankPacman.com), December 10, 1998.

Craig,

You have a little scriptural knowledge; unfortunately, a little knowledge can be dangerous sometimes. You wrote to David:

"Your whole concept of the new covenant is royally screwed up.....Under the old covenant, the two parties involved were God and man. Under the new covenant, the two parties involved are God and Jesus. Man has nothing whatsoever to do with being a party to the covenant. We are simply the beneficiaries of this covenant."

Wrong, wrong, wrong... the Scriptures clearly teach that the New Covenant is between Israel and God, as we are told in Jeremiah and Hebrews:

JEREMIAH 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says YHVH, when I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH  32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says YHVH. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says YHVH: I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR MINDS, AND WRITE IT ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know YHVH,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says YHVH. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

The new covenant will be between God and His people Israel, which includes all other peoples who are grafted into the twelve tribes of Israel through faith in Christ (Rom. 11:17-24). These people will have the Law of God written in their hearts by the Holy Spirit.

You should really go back and study your Bible some more, Craig.

-- Nabi Davidson (nabi7@yahoo.com), December 10, 1998.

David.........

Yes, finally we agree on something.

God's punishment in this realm is for our benefit. It's the concept of fire purifying as I mentioned in my last post.

Where your logic fails drastically is in believing that a God of unconditional love causes torment without end. That is not a beneficial form of correction as the sole purpose would be to inflict pain and suffering.

And Nabi......

Study my Bible?????? It is exactly that study for year upon year that finally led me to the truth......of course, only after allowing God to open my eyes to proper understanding.

You also quoted scripture -- for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says YHVH. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more --

How many shall know him??? The next word is all. Just to make sure you don't butcher the context, it goes on to say "from the least of them to the greatest of them."

And God "will remember their sin no more". And as you say, the Gentiles were grafted into this great truth.

And David again......your comments on Hitler and Stalin make it very clear that you have no understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.......

Sin (singular.....the whole body of sin) was forgiven at the cross. Not individual acts of sin. In God's eyes, one act of sin or a thousand acts of sin, no different. You are no better or no worse than Hitler or Stalin judged by the Law. All three of you received the death penalty, not for your actions, but rather because death was imputed to you by the sin of Adam.

Not fair you say.........

No, not fair. Rather, merciful. Because by giving the death penalty to all because of the actions of one man, all would receive life by the death of one man, Christ Jesus.

So you're more righteous in the flesh than Hitler and Stalin. I salute you. But in God's eyes, your flesh is just as putrid and disgusting as their's. This is Scripture 101 stuff guys.

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), December 10, 1998.

I have six kids. Occasionally, when I ask them to do something- let's take setting the table as an example- I will find them squabbling about how I supposedly want them to set the table, why I want them to set the table that way, who I wanted to do which job and so on. The table, meanwhile, is NOT getting set, which was the whole point of the request. When appealed to, am I particularly pleased that one individual has gotten the details of the concept perfectly right? I am not. I am disappointed that no-one is setting the table. Remember, knowledge will pass away- faith, hope and love won't. Wouldn't we be better off minding "our business", (even better: the master's business), doing the particular job God has given each of us to the best of our understanding and ability than trusting God for the rest? A truly good and holy God will be about as well able to stand my company, as I to hang out with, say, some of the trolls that have let their venom loose on this site. So if He wants me fit for his company, He is going to have to teach me and 'clean me up'. I sure am not able to do it on my own.

-- Maria (encelia@mailexcite.com), December 10, 1998.

Craig,

As I have already stated above, you and I seem to agree on the fact that God will save all of mankind through His son. I was not ignoring the context of the passage I quoted from Jeremiah; I believe what it says.

But I cannot ignore the rest of the Scriptures. John tells us, "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:3-4).

The biggest problem people have with accepting the universalist position is that most who hold that belief tend to be antinomians ("against the Law"). Craig, you have some of the truth but you've mixed it with error. I would suggest you read Matthew 5:19.

-- Nabi Davidson (nabi7@yahoo.com), December 10, 1998.

Maybe all this is a semantics problem--not being able to come to a common definition of "punishment" or "spiritual justice".

Defintions of spiritual justice here range from a God that punishes to a Tough Love parent to purification by fire. Then there's the old saying that experience makes you bitter or better. It's punishment if you're not ready for it, but it's a learning experience if you are ready. The light is hard on cockroaches but a necessity to plants that depend on the light of the sun.

Or in our case, the light of the Son.

-- Kevin (mixesmusic@worldnet.att.net), December 11, 1998.

Gosh, one little analogy to one passage in the Bible, and BANG everybody comes out of the woodwork with all their axes grinding on religion in general. I was going to post an answer but I think I'll start it in a new thread, with a request that people stay on topic.

-- Shimrod (none@none.com), December 11, 1998.

To me, anyway, Y2K is a modern Tower of Babel. But I don't see Y2K as a "punishment"--it's about not knowing what the priorities are.

Of course, God sheds light on all topics. Do we WANT to see what the real priorities are? Y2K is a case of misplaced priorities.

So was the Tower of Babel.

-- Kevin (mixesmusic@worldnet.att.net), December 11, 1998.