I don't think I know anymore than you do, I have theories but doesn't everyone. The CFR and the Trilateral Commission are openly working towards this One World Government, they don't even bother to try and hide their agenda anymore. It seems fairly clear cut to me that the same old world families are the power source behind this movement, the international banking families that is. The Rockefelllers and the Rothschilds, and the Goulds, and the Getty's. I think Y2K was either a preplanned event by these people, or is certainly playing right into their hands rather conveniently. We have reached the end of the debt cycle of fiat money anyway, and the U>S> and world economies are doomed to first recession and then all out depression Y2K or not. Y2K will merely act as a catylist to accelerate the collapse. The American people are the last heavily armed populace in any civilized nation on the planet. These civilians and the American Military pose one of two threats to the New World order movement. The other threat is the communist block of Russia, China, N. Korea, The Baltic States, and Cuba. Their time frame is limited in which they can act as weapons of mass destruction proliferate into third world countries such as Iran, Iraq, and Pakistan. They must act on finalization of their plans before this third threat can fully materialize and the situation becomes completely uncontrollable. I will come back and review these 3 threats and likely scenarios later. Their methods to date have gone exactly according to plan and can be summed up fairly simply. Through massive manipulation of banking and the stock market in the 1920's these families succeeded in bringing on the crash of the stock market in 1929 and the great depression which followed. After starving the American public for a time by tightening the money supply they were able to implement phase two of their plan via installation of the Federal Reserve and the New Deal. FDR will no doubt be remembered in long term history as the greatest traitor America has ever known. If America continues to exist that is. Using their new tool, the FED, they were able to print money at will, created out of thin air, and backed by increasing public debt. Of course this power expanded their wealth and power to corrupt expotentially. Loosening the reigns on the money supply America began to pull out of the artificially created depression, though no longer a soverign nation as it had been. We had sold our soul to the Banking Families. After World war two the MarShall plan rebuilt our enemies into the industrial powerhouse competitors they are today. The United Nations was formed as a tool to erode and eventually destroy the national soverignity of all nations worldwide, and to open the doors for the banking Families to replicate their FED scam worldwide.AS more and more Wealth accrued to the Banking Families They began to attack selective economies one at a time, forcing the governments to abandon the Gold standard and first liquidate their reserves of gold, then go into debt to the IMF. Australia was the last holdout, and they went off the gold standard last year. Having already accumulated nearly half the World's supply of gold bullion they were able to control the price of gold artificially by simply buying and selling amonst themselves in large amounts. Australia began dumping it's gold reserves last year to help hold the price down while Russia floundered repaying private banking loans which were secured with one third of its gold reserves. They ultimately forfieted their mortgaged reserves as a direct consequence of Australias actions and the American congress' refusal to fund further IMF loans to them. So at this point in time these families privately own nearly two thirds of the entire gold supply of the entire world., and managed to get it by printing their own money. Pretty neat scam huh? In the meantime they had pumped billions of dollars into those foreign nations such as Japan and Germany building an infrastructure and manufacturing base which was able to capitalize on cheap labor. Our own innefficient industrial base found itself unable to compete with unregulated foreign imports and began it's overseas flight. This process was greatly accelerated through NAFTA and GATT. The Amercan agricultural base was destroyed through similar methods. Generations old family farms were mortgaged to the government in efforts to upgrade efficiency so that they could compete with heavily subsidized agricultural imports. Most of these farms were ultimately lost and mega corporations assumed control of our food supplies. The result of this is that when the bubble burst there will be massive starvation. Through the downsizing of the military they have been able to accomplish two goals. First they have incredibly weakened our defenses and our ability to rapidly expand the military no longer exist. These high tech weapons systems we use are not only vulnerable to Y2K but they also take intelligent people to operate them and it takes years of training to do so. Secondly through selective promotion and forced early retirement they have restructured the command elements of the military with personality types who will willingly use these forces on the American people when ordered to do so. Case in point here, ever chief of the Joint chiefs of staff since the mid 1950's has been a member of the CFR. Having gained total control of the world's gold supply, food supply, and national governments we have entered phase three of the plan. They have established the Euro dollar as a introduction to one world currency. Using their vast gold reserves they will be able to sustain or devalue all other world currencies at their will in the coming worldwide chaos. This pretty well brings us to our current moment in time. Final implementation of the plan calls for a worldwide depression, elimination of America as a military threat, an global population reductions through war and disease and starvation. the American Government has openly started it's villification of opposition groups ala Militia's and Christians. As we approach Y2K they are stomping posse comatais into the ground, preparing for martial law, and getting ready to exterminate the opposition. Civil war is a given at this point in the very near future as patriots fight for their very lives. This will not be an honorable war, it will be a take no prisoners, no holds barred, genocidal free for all. Surrender is death. No doubt large segments of the military will revolt and cross to the patriot ranks, and on these units numbers the outcome of this particular conflict will hinge. In the overall scheme of the Trilateralist plans the short term victor of America's war is not critical, all that matter's is that she be devastated to the point of no longer being able to mount resistence to their overthrow of the rest of the world. Once they have consolidated The United Nations into a one world government they can easily come back here and mop up the survivors if we are locally victorious. this doesn't mean they won't try very hard to win here as an intact America under their control would greatly expedite their overthrow of everyone else. This brings us to the second threat, the Communist Bloc. These powers have basically the same goals as the banking families, but a different set of leaders as an ultimate goal. Russia is well equipped to overrun Eastern Europe with America out of the picture if the Chinese throw in with them. The recent thaw in Russia's and China's relations is a powerful indicator they are considering just this option. The NWO, recognizing this threat, is positioning the United states to take the brunt of a nuclear exchange should it come to that. We are actively villanizing the Chinese in the world community now, and escalating tensions via weapons transfers to Taiwan. Technology transfers to China in the recent past have ensured that they will have the capability to do massive damage to the United States in the event they choose to strike. We are being played off against each other like a pair of fighting roosters, getting the dander up and the smell of blood in the air. So what does this mean? Pretty simple really. Either the communist nations will elect to eventually come under the umbrella of the European One World Government, Or they will attempt to neutralize the United States and overrun Europe. Through our provacations we are trying to force them to show their hand and commit to one course of action or the other while NATO retains sufficient integrity (Pre Y2K) to deliver a coordinated strike against them. I would think the days leading up to the gps rollover and the remainder of 1999 will be interesting indeed. In the most Chinese sense of the word.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 09, 1999

Answers

Sorry about the format. I typed this as a respnse to a private e-mail then edited it and cut-pasted to here. Somehow the paragrphs didn't survive the process. Yall bear with me, this is my first computer and I haven't had it all that long.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 09, 1999.

Nikoli,

Well done! Interesting post, food for thought. I've been reading about this stuff for ten years. I totally believe there are elitests audacious enough to methodically plan such a thing. If I could ask but one question to them it would be....

"For what will a man be profited, if he gains the whole world, and forfiets his soul?" Matthew 16:26

I just don't get it. He who dies with the most toys, still dies.

Deborah

-- Deborah (maniacal@nwo.com), February 09, 1999.

If you read the book "The Shadows of Power" by James Perloff, you will form a different opinion about the world communist regimes being a threat. They have all be engineered into power, courtesy of the "elite".

-- (mass@delusions.com), February 09, 1999.

what tripe

-- tripe (tripe@y2khysteria.con), February 09, 1999.

mass delusions, What you say is certainly true in that we were instrumental in the creation of communism, however the monsters you create almost always achieve independent thought and a personal agenda. Case in point Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, Manuel Noriega, and countless others who have bit the hand that fed them.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 09, 1999.

Nikoli,

You don't know how close you probably are to the coming events about to unfold. From a prophetic standpoint in scripture, you - in a way- filled in many fields that are not delineated in specifics. America is finished, and a time of turmoil the world has ever known, nor ever shall again, is soon upon us all. (Reread Nikoli's post again).

What's left of our people will be taken captive. Prisoners and slaves to a mighty and pissed-off Superpower. Europe will be the head of this new global beast, and it will form from the base of a powerful rennaissanced religion. When the desperation of peoples are willing to surrender their freedoms for sustenance, this is how an evil regime that controls all is forged. It's alliance however is fragile, iron and clay mixed, as they are united under desperation, not a foundation of principles.

China and the East on the other hand, may pose problems for this new superpower after they quell troubles in the mid-East and Jerusalem in particular.

It will take God to straighten out this coming mess. For if He didn't, no one would be left alive.

It's frightening, but your foresight has done much to fill in a scenario few will want to face up to.

INVAR - just watching the puzzle pieces fall into place....

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), February 09, 1999.

Nicki ol son,

Id swear you've been listening to my sermons for the last 8-10 years. I'd venture too say we've read about the same library. About the only major point you missed was the 3 currency scheme. No doubt you are following progress on that note also.

I've not gone into these matters here on this board for perceived lack of interest. And as some of the responses show, the criminally uniformed are alive and well among us.

Unfortunately, Yes, they are interesting times.

-- Greybear

As a sharp guy I know said recently: "It's a good day to die".

ps - Nik, are you really of the Rus?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), February 09, 1999.

good work, Nikoli.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), February 09, 1999.

Grey Bear, a fuller quote is from my favorite (yes, B) movie: Billy Jack, attributed to Native American thought :

"Today's as good a day as any to die"

-Billy Jack

-- Runway Cat (Runway_Cat@hotmail.com), February 09, 1999.

Nikoli,

Very nice - that's the whole sorry situation, in a nutshell.

I would only add that the "patriot" group - militias, chruches- has been infiltrated. I am sympathetic with any group in support of the Constitution and American sovereignty, but we have to assume that their actions, or actions ascribed to them, are going to alienate the populace. They will be portrayed as "racist, right-wing terrorists." If the patriot group does not form a conspicuously multi-ethnic American alliance, and purge overtly racist elements from it's ranks, it is doomed.

Nikoli, Greybear: can you post a reading list, say ten or more favorite titles? I'll get back here and do the same.

Thanks.

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 09, 1999.

Nikoli:

Excellent. Only point I have is that Y2K probably not planned, but plays into their hands. Note that all govt activity is in ways to control the populace, not to fix anything.

-- a (A@AisA.com), February 09, 1999.

Grey Bear and E. coli, thanks for the reviews, no I'm not any shade russian, the handle was choosen to incite a little taste of apprehension when one reads my post. A little tinge of that cold war nuclear sweat, how quickly we forget. The gov.org says no problem anymore, yet those tenthousand plus warheads are still there, still funtional, and still in the hands of our sworn enemies. I really don't have a recommended reading list, I was nearly blind to this threat only a few months ago. Doing research on Y2K led me to some pretty strange places in cyberspace, and I have always been a student of history. the one thing god gave me was an innate ability to recognize a pattern from random bits of information and assemble them into a complete picture. the picture isn't always perfect, but it's usually pretty dern close. I'm bettin the farm on this one. Just another small town Texas boy with a lot of guns, and a lot of American pride.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 09, 1999.

Nikoli, This sounds strangly familar. Check out post y2k millennium Latest Fear Fads.

-- Too many out there (calgon@takeme away.please), February 09, 1999.

Nikoli

Thank God for your interest in History, and your innate ability to recognize patterns.........you've assembled the picture very well. Yes, it's a very UGLY picture, and one VERY FEW want to believe.

That's a lot of the problem today, we have so many Ostriches who just want to stick their head in the sand and ignore what's going on around them.......seemingly afraid to stand out in the crowd....... have to blend in.

Well, NOT THIS OLE GAL........I may be female, but I don't consider myself stupid, and just like Nickoli, I just happen to have a lot of AMERICAN PRIDE !!!!!!

I've made this statement before, and I'll make it again........What's the most they can do to me? Kill me?? Well, I'd rather die fighting those B@#$%&DS than be their slave any longer, and they just very well may kill me, but I'll do my best to take a few of them out with me!!!!!!!

E

I for one, would be very interested and grateful, if you could put together a reading list.......

Thanks for listening........

Sandy

-- Paul & Sandy Stambaugh (patches96@worldnet.att.net), February 09, 1999.

Nikoli,

You are just one of the many 'conspiracy' losers that inhabit this newsgroup.

Men have always been power hungry. Nothing has changed. However, it seems that no matter what progress mankind makes, people like you have to turn everything into evil.

You ignore evidence against your wild theories. You spout ignornant falsehoods such as "Civil war is a given at this point in the very near future as patriots fight for their very lives. This will not be an honorable war, it will be a take no prisoners, no holds barred, genocidal free for all. Surrender is death."

You are fortunate you live in a democracy. If you talked such utter foolishness in most places in the world, you would surely be imprisoned for your treachery and treason. Yet you relish in criticizing every form of government and leadership there is, including that in your own country.

Every act of peace, every act of working together for a better world, is twisted by your mind to become something that is ugly and evil. Anything good happens, and this further 'proves' to your sick mind that a grand conspiracy is only doing it for evil purposes.

You seem to like the idea of Russia and China actively planning the destruction of the west. Any talk of peace of rational discussion to work together for the benefit of all humanity is evil in your eyes.

No, Nikoli, you are the warmonger, and yet you are so obviously blind to the facts.

Take a break please.......

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), February 09, 1999.

And to Sandy........

You've lost all perspective that this forum is about Y2K.

Your statement "........What's the most they can do to me? Kill me?? Well, I'd rather die fighting those B@#$%&DS than be their slave any longer, and they just very well may kill me, but I'll do my best to take a few of them out with me" shows that you better get help quickly!!

No one is trying to kill you Sandy......

No one wants you to be their slave either Sandy......

And you talk about wanting to "take a few of them out with me" makes you a candidate to be placed in protective custody for your own sake and the sake of others........

Do you not realize how wacko you are sounding?

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), February 09, 1999.

Craig,

Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...

But we love you anyway. May God have mercy on your soul as he does ours.

-- Jeremiah Jetson (laterthan@uthink.y2k), February 09, 1999.

Craig

My only response to you is this:

I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person......

Sandy

-- Paul & Sandy Stambaugh (patches96@worldnet.att.net), February 09, 1999.

Sandy....

Cute...

Of course, that only makes you a cute arsehole.

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), February 09, 1999.

Jeremiah....

What's this about throwing stones?? I am simply stating facts that there is a lot of paranoid behaviour happening here.....a lot of people that are loosing grip on reality. This is not a good thing Jeremiah.

Also, a little in Scripture 101 for you: God has already had mercy on my soul, your soul and everyone elses soul that ever was, is or will ever be. The way you worded it was extremely patronizing and seemed to indicate that God had already had mercy on your soul, but not mine. Remember the pharisees.........

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), February 09, 1999.

Craig, just judging from the tone of your post I would guess you are still at that idealistic peace corp age bracket and mindset. Perhaps a student at UCLA, or God forbid, a poli sci student or professor. Read the post again then go do some serious research, take off those rose colored glasses. It's gettting mighty late in the game to be idealistic and ignorant, and at this point in time if you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem. You keep standing in the railroad tracks admiring the beautiful sunset and this freight train is gonna hit you dead in the ass.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 09, 1999.

Craig -

You decreed that those of us that have eyes to see are "losers, foolish, twisted, warmongers".

You sir are a foole, an idiot and blind.

Your faith in a government of men proves how asleep and deaf you are.

I beginning to enjoy these labels and brands you shrill defenders of the status quo place on those of us that can see the handwriting on the wall, and are doing something to warn and prepare. You are unwittingly or not, a perpetrator of grand propaganda.

I gotta role for you in the next saga installment. You'll love it.

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), February 09, 1999.

Nikki -

Just a few minor quibble, like the FED was put into law in 1913, Russian and Chinese motivations, stuff like that.

Otherwise, I would say that you have hit the head with the nail. Unfortunately...

-- pshannon (pshannon@inch.com), February 09, 1999.

Craig, You said that Nikoli lived in a democracy. Back to school, Craig. We live in a constitutional republic(govt. by law), not a democracy (govt. by popularity contest). The NWO crowd wants you to keep believing it's a democracy so they can undermine our system of laws( which, judging by the farce in D.C., they've already done). Just a simple little example of how they work. What other reason would there be for this "innocent" little word switch. Sorry to say their actions won't be this subtle much longer. Michael Jon

-- Michael Jon (workshy@eagledesign.com), February 09, 1999.

I don't understand why 'they' would want to encourage war, civil strife, military take-over and slavery. Near as I can tell they already have control over most of whatever there is important to control. Why would they want further control over a nuked-out, semi-starved, reduced population of slaves. It just doesn't make sense.

Power is a powerful motivator. But wouldn't 'they' want power over a large, functioning economy rather than a decrepit foundering world-system. You guys have absolutely lost me on this. It makes no rational sense.

____@___.___

-- Hallyx (Hallyx@aol.com), February 09, 1999.

Damn...busted. I was ashamed and embarassed that I read this far down into this ill-thought, paranoid, spurious thread, especially when it contained such crap from people whose opinions I've learned to trust. You have lost so much credibility with me that your opinions on Y2K are going to be hard to trust.

I was further embaraased by posting here, even such an elemental question. I'll go away now. I feel sick.

Hallyx

"In this day and age, if you're not confused, you're not thinking clearly."---Burt Mannis

-- Hallyx (Hallyx@aol.com), February 09, 1999.

"Nikoli, You are just one of the many 'conspiracy' losers that inhabit this newsgroup. [snip] -- Craig "

I'm one of those 'conspiracy' losers too, but I am open to any facts you have that contradict the NWO 'conspiracy' theories. I'm not clear on any specifics, but it really seems to me that the "new left" (Democrats & Socialists), like the "communists", want to see world government, although their methods and goals differ. Between the "global economy", UN, NATO, World Court, NAFTA and EURO, it seems that we are nearly there. I find it especially troubling that US troops sent as "peace-keepers" need to take a UN oath that supercedes the US oath (one such soldier who refused to take the UN oath is now being court-marshaled).

Frankly, I want to believe that individual nations like the US will remain independent. Please offer facts. Sadly, references to Dan Rather or the Washington Post won't be very convincing for me.

-- Anonymous99 (Anonymous99@Anonymous.com), February 09, 1999.

It's OK, Hallyx, you're on the road to recovery from the Y2K obsession. It's getting the best of all of us.

-- you can "get it" without going off the deep end (formerGI@y2kanonymous.us), February 09, 1999.

Hallyx, do you ask yourself why so many rational long term posters are seeing our past and the possibilities of our future in a different light? Please think on that for a moment. I mean really think. What would be their purpose in becoming irrational all of a sudden? It is because they are doing the hard research, and are coming to the inevitable conclusions being discussed on this and many, many other threads and discussion forums by ever increasing numbers of people.

Y2K is inter-woven with the subject of this thread, like it or not. It is the meat of our future, like it or not.

Do yourself a big favor and do the research yourself. If you come to a different conclusion, then by all means, present a cognizant counter-argument. Otherwise, as we all so commonly suggest to 'don't get it' personalities on this forum, go elsewhere with your rude, brash and uninformed opinion.

-- (mass@delusions.com), February 09, 1999.

I've been visiting this forum off and on since the fall of 1997. I've done my research regarding Y2K and, whenever possible, have made my small contributions. Now, when I offer an opinion, I'm treated like some kind of DWGI troll?

[Do yourself a big favor and do the research yourself. If you come to a different conclusion, then by all means, present a cognizant counter-argument. Otherwise, as we all so commonly suggest to 'don't get it' personalities on this forum, go elsewhere with your rude, brash and uninformed opinion.]

Love it or leave it? What have I done to deserve this? And who are all these group-think, conspiratorialist newbies, anyway?

In any case, is anyone going to address my question?

Hallyx

"No wonder nobody comes here--it's too crowded."---Yogi Berra

-- Hallyx (Hallyx@aol.com), February 09, 1999.

Fact: An age old family of secret societies, known as the Illuminati and based on Freemasonry is alive and well. The original sect of this family based its most inner truths on communications with extraterrestrials.

Fact: A relatively new religion, popular with some celebrities, known as Scientology is struggling to ascertain political power in this country and Europe. The religion bases its most inner truths on communications with extraterrestrials.

Fact: A cult referred to as Heavens Gate recently performed a mass suicide ritual by donning purple suits and eating poison pudding. The cult based its most inner truths on communications with extraterrestrials.

Fact: A substantial percentage of the worlds population worships the Roman Catholic Church, and believes the Pope of Rome is the earthy envoy of the Supreme Being.

These are examples of belief systems. I don't know if any of them are true, but they are all equally valid as belief systems.

So I tend to agree with Hallyx and Craig. Just because the Rockefellers et al are greedy, manipulative and corrupt doesn't mean there's a worldwide conspiracy to turn everyone into slaves. It doesn't logically follow. There are much better explanations. If Clinton were the demon most on this forum make him out to be, we would have already succumbed to his evil plans. Get a grip. He's just a typical greedy, manipulative and corrupt politician. Learn to separate beliefs from truths.

-- a (a@a.a), February 09, 1999.

Please be welcome, Hallyx;

We wish you posted MORE not LEX !

-- Blue Himalayan (bh@k2.y), February 09, 1999.

Hallyx and aaaa, If you read the opening paragraph of my post you see it said that the trilateral commission and the council on foreign relations no longer make a secret of their One world Govewrnment Agenda. That is a very clear and concise statement. It means exactly what it says. Read it again. and again. This is not a secret conspiracy. It is documented public fact, self professed by the participants with no apologies or excuses. We're not talking aliens here, or sinister anti-christ, we're talking about a group of the world's wealthiest families who have held the reigns of power in Europe for a large portion of the last millenium. Their previous wealth and power was as nothing to the financial mass they have now accumulated. The national debt owed them by the United States citizens exceeds the total value of the country at this point in time, and is growing by the second. Now do us all a favor and run a web search on the New World Order. You will get thousands of hits. Do a little reading, get an education, then come back and admit your ignorance.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 09, 1999.

We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto determination practiced in past centuries." David Rockefeller, founder of the Trilateral Commission, in an address before that organization in June of 1991

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 09, 1999.

In my view The Trilateral Commission represents a skillful, coordinated effort to seize control and consolidate the four centers of power - political, monetary, intellectual, and ecclesiastical. All this is to be done in the interest of creating a more peaceful, more productive world community. What the Trilateralists truly intend is the creation of a worldwide economic power superior to the political governments of the nation-states involved. They believe the abundant materialism they propose to create will overwhelm existing differences. As managers and creators of the system they will rule the future." U.S. Senator Barry Goldwater, Republican candidate for President in 1964, in With no Apologies

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 09, 1999.

There is nothing inherently bizarre about the idea of one world government as an active plan among international elites. We've forgotten how today's national governments were orginally established. Consider China, a bunch of warring principalities until Qin Shi Huang Di united them in just prior to establishment of the long-lived Han dynasty.

Look at Japan prior to the Meiji restoration of 1868. Apparently unified under the Tokugawas, but actually a patchwork quilt of local, arbitrary and inefficient alliances, all swept away by the "new world order" using Emperor Meiji as its symbol.

Things said and done by tough old-school samurai such as Saigo Takamori at that time in resisting the Meiji forces could be posted word-for-word (after translation :-) onto today's American patriot web sites, or could be posted here under the name E. Coli without anybody missing a beat. For example, he was resisting Meiji policies such as sword control, and the Westernization that he felt would lead the country to become a player and then a pawn in the international arena. Hey, what's a world war between friends ?

These cases were engineered by elites who saw beyond local, parochial, and geographical commitments, for better or worse. Why should anyone be surprised at this process occurring on a world scale today ? Even a Fed lapdog like former labor secretary Robert Reich said as much in his writing on global elites.

-RCat

-- Runway Cat (runway_cat@hotmail.com), February 09, 1999.

Very well validated Nikoli !!!!!!!!!

Guess they must both be from Missouri....the 'Show Me' State......

Sandy

-- Paul & Sandy Stambaugh (patches96@worldnet.att.net), February 09, 1999.

There is no such thing, at this date of the world's history, in America, as an independent press. You know it and I know it. There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinion out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job. If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone. The business of the journalists is to destroy the truth; to lie outright; to pervert; to vilify; to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell the country for his daily bread. You know it and I know it and what folly is this toasting an independent press. We are the tools and vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes." John Swinton, former Chief of Staff of the The New York Times, when asked to give a toast to the "free press" at the New York Press Club in 1953.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 10, 1999.

The] abandonment of the gold standard made it possible for the welfare statists to use the banking system as a means to an unlimited expansion of credit.... In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value. If there were, the government would have to make its holdings illegal, as was done in the case of gold.... The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.... [This] is the shabby secret of the welfare statist's tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the 'hidden' confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights." Alan Greenspan [now Fed Chairman] wrote in 1966

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 10, 1999.

The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson." Franklin D. Roosevelt in a letter to Woodrow Wilson's closest adviser, Col. Edward M. House dated November 21, 1933

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 10, 1999.

I can keep this up all night, but why should I do your research for you? As I said, this is not some conspiracy fantasy, it is self admitted subversion and overthrow of the Republic of the United States of America. You may apologize or not at your convenience, doesn't really matter to me, but in the future please refrain from assisting the perpetuators of propoganda. They have enough of an advantage without your help.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 10, 1999.

Hallyx asked:

>>I don't understand why 'they' would want to encourage war, civil strife, military take-over and slavery. Near as I can tell they already have control over most of whatever there is important to control. Why would they want further control over a nuked-out, semi-starved, reduced population of slaves. It just doesn't make sense. Power is a powerful motivator. But wouldn't 'they' want power over a large, functioning economy rather than a decrepit foundering world-system. You guys have absolutely lost me on this. It makes no rational sense.

This is a good question. In a sense you answered your own question; it is about Power. Let me answer this, "Being There"-style: why does the gardener prune his fruit tree? He cuts at the very plant that he hopes will feed him! The answer comes in the Springtime: not only is the growth more lush, but the growth occurs where and when he wanted it to. What seemed to be mutilation has actually strengthened the organism. All very well if you're a tree. In our case, each major disaster, like pruning, moves the plan forward. After WWII there was the milquetoast League of Nations, making sure WW would "never happen again." After WWII, there was the U.N., bigger, badder, stronger, offering to save us from our wicked nationalistic ways. After Y2k, and whatever further conflict it may bring, there will be a similar reorganization of the globalist institution. You can bet it will have an army, and the power to tax the citizens and businesses of every nation - something the U.N. is openly asking for now. What will that mean? It will mean The Prize of millenia has been won. The Chinese have a saying: "Of the second rate leader, they praise him, saying 'he did it!' Of the first rate leader, they say only 'we did it ourselves!'"

You can't argue that there is no globalist movement. There are two questions about it: 1. Are some few people behind it and if so, who, and 2. Do they want to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony? Or do they want to rule over us, albeit in anonymity, as one planetary kingdom, eternally? Question One answers Question two: these people are international bankers, and their, um, advisors. Sorry. It makes me feel sick, too: These rulers want what all other rulers have wanted from time immemorial. Now they have the technological reach (electromagnetic and microwave crowd-control weapons, psychopharmacology, artificial intelligence running survelliance that is integrated with vast databases) to rule more absolutely, and more globally, than anyone has ruled before. It's just what very powerful people do. Until very recently, they have had to make compromises with human dignity that they just don't need to make anymore. Now it's just a matter of tightening the grip - in the stepwise manner of the global wars previously mentioned, which were financed, on both sides, by the same bankers. Were they not?

Would they bring the horse to a dangerous point of exhaustion, even risk breaking it's bones, in order to tame it, make it willing to take a saddle and bridle - forever? Well think of the alternative - what good is a wild horse? And to what use can a well-trained horse be put? We really have no concept of the reward that comes from global dominance. Most of us are awed by a little good service at the local diner, or the honeymoon suite at the Hilton. Since the kind of minds that would plot, across the generations, for world dominance are so strange to most normal folks as to be truly alien, we have difficulty believing they could exist. If you can't understand the type of being that would kill millions and risk killing a planet in order to rule over it, believe me, that's a very good sign.

If you research the matter you will see that, while we may indeed be paranoid freaks, we've got this one right. You have only to look.

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 10, 1999.

Nikolai......

First of all, you don't even have the balls to post in your real name.

Secondly, I'd post my research and credentials against yours and every other 'conspiracy theory wakmeister' in this forum any day!

As a matter of fact, I used to teach the same line of crap you do now. After much much research I came to the conclusion that most of it was much ado about nothing.

The scriptural basis for this whole end of the world 'antichrist' is going to implant a chip in our heads' stuff, is non-existant. I've given enough details on this in the past and won't waste my time casting pearls before the swine again. On a secular basis, the arguments are equally as foolish.

The whole 'One World Conspiracy Movement' takes a false premise, and then seeks to "prove" their premise by seizing any events they can and squeeze them into the conspiracy mold. In the end, what you have are a bunch of paranoid people that read conspiracy into anything whatsoever that happens in world history.

Now certainly there are some individuals that would want a 'One World Government'. Some of these individuals may even have evil motives. However, most of them have noble motives. After seeing millennium of wars and distrust between peoples of different races, tribes and languages, it makes perfect sense to try and put our prejudices aside and work together for a change. To the conspiracy theorist, this is all evil for they actually prefer a world where people kill others over their greed and racist ideas.

The few evil people that actual want a world government for their own personal gain are virtually non-existant. Face it, typically evil people want their place in history and their fortune and fame NOW!! As long as they have money and luxury now, they don't give a fiddlers fart about the world as a whole and are not willing to sacrifice their lives in the pursuit of some loftier goal. This my friends, is called common sense.

I have studied the Bilderbergers, the Trilateral Commission, the mark of the beast et al. I have spoken with representatives of the Knights of Malta, the Tara Centre in London, England who promote the revealing of the 'Christ', Lord Maitreya who supposedly walks the earth today preparing the world for his return. I have spoken with representatives of the Ahmayidda Movement, whose lineage is supposed to produce the 'Christ' known as Lord Maitreya. I have read Alice Baileys books on the Occult and studied the 'Points of Light'. I know all about David Spangler and Krishnamurti and Constance Cumbey and the famous channelers et al.

Nikolai, give me a break. In the study of 'One World Government' and 'Modern rapture-obsessed Christianity', you are a junior in the field. Don't tell me to study it. I have studied it intensely, read the book and bought the t-shirt. Again, I tell you, you are WRONG and CONFUSED.

I am interested in serious discussion about Y2k and how it can potentially affect us. I make no bones about my feelings towards it. I think we are likely headed for a severe recession with a chance of a resulting depression due to Y2k. This makes me extreme in the Joe Public arena but apparently a Pollyanna here. I don't mind that in the least.

What I am quite frankly sick and tired of, are the scripture- twisting, Nostradamus-obsessed, self-righteous, phariseeical, conspiracy loving characters that seem to think their weird ways are in some way noble.

The same people that want the government to ensure that dangerous people are not walking the streets have become the unstable dangerous people themselves!!

Imagine, Sandy rambling on about taking someone with her when her imaginery enemies attack her. This is schizophrenic behaviour folks!!

Carry on in that mindset to your own peril. Live in your imaginery conspiracy world for too long, and you will start to hear voices in your head. You become a product of what you dwell on. Continue in your strange ways and you might want to stock up on white suits with very long arms that can be tied behind your backs. Hey, why not. That's where some of you are headed.

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), February 10, 1999.

Craig, it is increasingly apparent that you are unable to grapple with the pressures and dangers of real life. I have no problems retaining rational thought in the face of these threats as my faith is founded in God. I have accepted the fact that I am more than likely not going to survive the next five years but that by no means is an indication that I am going to just rollover and die. The struggle is the Glory. You're misplaced faith in the Government is a nationwide disease ravaging the independent spirit on shich this nation was founded. It will be a truly rude awakening to you and your kind when the jackals are at the door. Or will you be among them?

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), February 10, 1999.

ALTERNATIVE 3 COMING TO A STORE NEAR YOU ,HAS ANYONE PLAYED CONNECT THE DOTS ? LATELY ? JUST WONDERING ?

-- Furie (furieart@dnet.net), February 10, 1999.

Craig, You don't know what you're talking about.

But some corrections to oft incorrect interpretations of scriptural prophecy are in order here.

"The scriptural basis for this whole end of the world 'antichrist' is going to implant a chip in our heads' stuff, is non-existant."

On that one you are correct. Antichrist is not a man. It is a system. A system of government. In the final ressurection of the Holy Roman Empire, a global superpower forged under diress with the blessings of the Church will dominate Europe and much of the West. Much of what Nikoli wrote bears out the foundations of this system about to appear. It will be an unsteady alliance (clay and iron mixed is the analogy the bible uses to describe this union) Nebuchadnezzar's vision in Daniel figures into the keys in the book of Revelation as to the succession of "systems" that would preceed the tribulation.

The mark of the beast is not a tatoo, a computer chip in your head or hand or your TV. It is not a physical mark per se. It is (In biblical symbolism right hand refers to actions, and forehead refers to a way of thinking) the acceptance of this new global system of government and profiting by your allegiance to it.

Revelation makes clear that the world's merchants would be made rich through this system. They would have the religious, monetary and global positioning to dominate by rewarding those that take part in this system. Those that oppose it will not be allowed to buy or sell in it, and will starve or be destroyed.

Nikoli's post accurately dovetails with scripture's outline of end- time events preceeding the appearance of God to deal with man directly. The East (Russia/China) will be posing a huge threat to this superpower after they quell troubles in the Mid-East and Jerusalem.

The U.S., Britain and other english-speaking nations don't even figure in this scenario, as what is left of us in taken into captivity by this superpower after we rend ourselves apart.

Tying all this into the forum, Y2K could be the trigger that sets these events in motion, though the tracks have been laid for over a century now.

Now with that said and out of the way, this is why many oppose a desire for a "one world governmnet" even if it's stated intentions are noble. It's final appearance will be evil, and most importantly it's unAmerican. Giving up our sovereignty even under diress is anethma to some Americans.

"The same people that want the government to ensure that dangerous people are not walking the streets have become the unstable dangerous people themselves!!"

By whose definition? Yours???

I'm sick of elitist Let-Government-Take-Care-Of-And-Nuture-The-People bullshit, and the growing Protect-Us-From-Ourselves crap. We were a nation founded on rugged individualism. No government safety nets, no hands up. It was a Pull-Yourself-Up-By-Your-Own-Bootstraps that made this nation great. Not government. Not belief in government. And especially, not dependance on government.

Distrust of any government is our birthright, and our foundation as a nation. Advocating the government put undesirable opinions and belief systems held by folks away is nothing short of Naziism and totalitarianism.

We've obviously lost that perspective through "conditioning" and inferior education of our history over the generations. We've become fat and lazy. You sir are a disgrace to the principles that founded this nation.

This is not to say we shouldn't have standards and common decency. Let those be proclaimed in the home and in Church. Distrust of government IS NOT TO BE FEARED, BUT CELEBRATED! This was the foundation of our nation. I can see you fear those that posess independant thought of government.

Fear of our Government is good. Fear of a Global Government of Men is divine.

Derriding those of us that can see the truth, proves what a dependant stooge you are, and how bereft of self reliance and determination you possess yourself.

What a shame.

Unfortunately, most Americans probably feel the same way you do. So you can wrap yourself in the comfort of numbers.

To your peril.

And theirs.

Don't Tread On Me.

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), February 10, 1999.

Hallyx asks "What have I done to deserve this?"

You made the following statement: "I was ashamed and embarassed that I read this far down into this ill-thought, paranoid, spurious thread, especially when it contained such crap from people whose opinions I've learned to trust."

Hallyx said: "I don't understand why 'they' would want to encourage war, civil strife, military take-over and slavery. Near as I can tell they already have control over most of whatever there is important to control. Why would they want further control over a nuked-out, semi- starved, reduced population of slaves. It just doesn't make sense. Power is a powerful motivator. But wouldn't 'they' want power over a large, functioning economy rather than a decrepit foundering world- system. You guys have absolutely lost me on this. It makes no rational sense." Can you read??? Well then READ, and you will get your answer. Or, at the very least, you can formulate a reasonable rebuttal based on knowledge.

Thank you.

-- (mass@delusions.com), February 10, 1999.

Well put, INVAR.

Craig, I don't share INVAR's christian faith in Biblical prophecy, but I share his general assessment of the situation. Subcutaneous microchip transponders are used in pets. They have been suggested for implantation in humans, both for tracking children and for holding financial information, much like a "smart card." No doubt you wouldn't mind having one. Think of the convenience - no more wallet! Now that's freedom.

But on to what seems to be the core of your argument, carefully sifted from the barrage of insults and threats of involuntary commitment:

>>The few evil people that actual want a world government for their own personal gain are virtually non-existant. Face it, typically evil people want their place in history and their fortune and fame NOW!! As long as they have money and luxury now, they don't give a fiddlers fart about the world as a whole and are not willing to sacrifice their lives in the pursuit of some loftier goal. This my friends, is called commmon sense.

Yes, it is indeed "common sense." But we're not dealing with commoners here, are we. We are dealing with banking "houses" (families) and aristocrats, who have carefully intermarried accross the centuries to preserve their power and distinction. They don't want world government exclusively for themselves; they are more closely identified with their familial heritage than most, and want power and wealth for their forebears. They are thinking *bequeathment*. When we talk about the international banking families, we aren't dealing with "typically evil" people, like politicians and the visible "rich&famous." And I don't think it's true that these people have no sense of valor and self-sacrifice when it comes to larger, mult-generational goals. In fact, I'm given to understand that this personal valor, among other virtues, is what separates them from those who are merely in possession of money or position. It is, in their minds, partly what distinguishes them from us, and gives them the right to rule.

I hope this helps you in your research.

T-shirt? I never got a t-shirt...

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 10, 1999.

Guys, this is really getting unnecessarily shrill. It's a very sophisticated topic. In principle, Hallyx is absolutely correct. For the most part, prosperity accompanied by an increasingly numbed herd that is happy to watch soap operas rather than live as citizens is much preferable to global chaos. Why? Because chaos, by definition, is hard to control.

In fact, I think it is arguable that the elites are as freaked out by the rickety-ness of the world financial system as anyone else. They've been making out pretty well all these years, you know, while *quietly* advancing other designs. If the exercise of actual (think: Riady) rather than apparent (think: Clinton) power is your objective, chaos is ugly.

However, and here is where Hallyx may have missed something, Y2K introduces the possibility of chaos into *everyone's* plans (including ours), like it or not. No one knows, but I'll bet that the elites were caught as flat-footed on Y2K in mid-97 or so as everyone else. And I'll betcha that there are GIs and DGIs among them, just as there are here.

Nevertheless, with actual chaos a realistic possibility, all *real* power centers in this world (the banking families, Saddams, Chinese, etc) as well as the apparent centers are, of course, trying to understand how various Y2K scenarios can be made to fit, or better, advance, their specific agendas.

Correct me, guys, but I think this rather obvious explanation is the key that ties together the rather explicit, open agenda of the NWO people (Hallyx, Nikoli is right on that score: lots of people plain out want such a result for the 21st century) with the other fact, that Y2K is, AT LEAST AS OF NOW, a wild and unpleasant card for everybody, including the NWO people.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), February 10, 1999.

With all due respect to E. and Big Dog, Y2K is the trigger that makes the scenarios Nikoli and I described a real possibility.

In order to replace the current sovereignity of states and nations, you first need to have it all collapse along with the faith in our current systems in order to replace them with the promise of a new order.

Whether by design or not, when this whole economic-digital cookie crumbles, the vacuum it creates will be all-too well filled with those that have the charisma, cash, and power to dominate.

And the people left alive will demand it.

To all our peril.

Can you stand against it when it happens?

THAT is the question.

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), February 10, 1999.

Invar --- again, it's a nuance, I suppose, but we're really in basic agreement: yes, Y2K may be just that trigger. My only comment was that the NWO boys were on their way without Y2K AND MAYBE MORE SMOOTHLY if Y2K WERE just a bump (our next President, for instance, might have been/be an open NWOer). A Y2K disaster might, for instance, break the "communication" monopoly of the NWOers for a decade or so and lead to powerful, balkanized resistance to "world governments".

In other words, I don't disagree in principle, but I believe Y2K is a PROBLEM for the NWO people as much as an OPPORTUNITY.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), February 10, 1999.

I don't think we differ, except on the more dramatic supernatural stuff, INVAR.

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 10, 1999.

This is all so interesting!

E. Coli, get ready for "more dramatic supernatural stuff" in the years ahead. The younger generation has been brainwashed into accepting something "alien" exists beyond our planet. They won't be disappointed.

-- dinosaur (dinosaur@williams-net.com), February 10, 1999.

Craig,

>First of all, you don't even have the balls to post in your real name.

Craig, quite a few posters on this forum do so anonymously for a variety of reasons. As you can see, I am one.

I have explained my own reasons for anonymity in an earlier thread that has my handle in the title. Look it up.

An ad hominem line such as the one quoted gives the impression that you don't have strong arguments of more substantial type. After all, if you have strong arguments of substance, why throw in a weak argument to dilute them?

-- No Spam Please (anon@ymous.com), February 11, 1999.

dinosaur,

Your right on the money with the UFO deception. Have you read Jaques Vallee? Suggests that these anemic little rectum-thieves are likely other-dimensional than extra-terrestrial. I just don't share INVAR's biblical approach, i.e., it seems to me that the "all of these weird vistors are demons" is just as likely as "all these weird visitors are E.T.'s" or "all these weird vistors are fairies" or "all these weird visitors are time-travellers." They may not all be as evil as some. The really unpleasant ones may be just as nasty and threatening as any demon you could imagine, though. I mean, what do they DO with all those cow rectums, anyway...?

This whole is a tangled, knotted web of disinformation, covert ops, media massage, secret technology, occultism, espionage, and non-stop thrills and adventure. In case you haven't seen this yet, dino:

http://www.brotherblue.org/

E.

-- E. Coli (nunayo@beeswax.com), February 12, 1999.

As I've indicated in a few previous posts, I'm a humanoid being from the binary star system Zeta-Reticula 1 and 2, who crash landed here on your bad smelling planet while on vacation a couple of years ago. Those who theorize that your alien visitors are time-travelers are quite correct. These beings are actually from your own future, circa 2511. The interesting thing is that, through trial and error, bovine rectum had become the monetary unit of choice in 2511, and that's why these guys come to this time and collect them on the cheap. It turns out that once someone had earned any bovine rectum at all, they would immediately deposit them in the bank and never, ever, ever withdraw them again. The banks all like this very much, for it prevents any bank runs from ever occurring. Hope this helps.

-- Zork...just Zork (zork@zeta-reticula2.orb), February 12, 1999.

Craig,

You are incredibly naive. Russia and China ARE preparing to take over the U.S., and if we don't keep eyes wide open and stay on our toes, that is exactly what will happen.

-- (@@@.@), February 13, 1999.

The only evidence I've seen presented for the proposition "Russia and China are preparing to invade Usa" is really just evidence for these countries preparing for war with whoever, just doing the standard national security things, i.e. exercises, r+d, new weapons systems, troop movements. Maybe @@@@ has better info than me: lay it on me.

-- humptydumpty (no.6@thevillage.com), February 14, 1999.

See thread onSuitcase nukes Humpty...

WASHINGTON - Russia cannot threaten the United States. She is poor. She is weak. She is starving. She is in chaos. Think again, says Stanislav Lunev. Col. Lunev is the highest ranking military intelligence officer ever to have defected from Russia. He did so in 1992 after the Soviet Union dissolved and Boris Yeltsin had come to power. At the time of his defection Lunev was living in Washington with his wife, working a cover job as a journalist for TASS, the Russian news agency, while doing his real job: spying on America. As a GRU officer Lunev's spying related to military matters: gathering information on America's military plans; reporting on U.S. vulnerabilities; devising special operations in the advent of war. Last year, Lunev detailed just some of his activities in a new book he co-authored with Ira Winkler, "Through the Eyes of the Enemy: Russia's Highest Ranking Military Defector Reveals Why Russia is More Dangerous than Ever" (Regnery, (800) 639-7629). The book is a light read with some sensational details about Russian plans to bring suitcase nuclear bombs into America and to use special forces to assassinate the president and congressional, military and other leaders during the initial phases of a war. Lunev claims in "Through the Eyes of the Enemy" that Russian military leaders still view a war with the United States as "inevitable" and that the Cold War never really ended. Save for some talk radio outlets and the Internet, Lunev's book got little media coverage. This comes as no surprise since most Americans believe the United States won the Cold War. Russia is not a threat and any suggestion that it is has to be written off as just paranoid jingoism. Lunev is used to unfriendly receptions. When he did defect, higher-ups at the CIA and the Pentagon did not accept what he had to say. What he said was rather simple. Russia is continuing its old ways. The military is still preparing for war against the United States. A nuclear war. In the era of fuzzy warm feelings between the United States and Russia, American officials were not going to upset the applecart no matter how much evidence Lunev offered. In the intervening years, Russia has appeared to further disintegrate. Can she really be a threat? skeptics ask. Lunev most certainly has been proven wrong. Lunev says think again. He retorts that Russia still retains a formidable military-industrial complex. She is one of the world's largest arms exporters. She makes quality products and delivers them on time. Russia continues to build nuclear submarines, bombers and missiles. Last year Yeltsin commissioned Peter the Great, the largest ballistic missile cruiser ever built by mankind. This past Christmas, Russia deployed a regiment of 10 Topol-M intercontinental ballistic missiles, missiles reportedly more sophisticated than anything we have. Just last month, Russia unveiled her stealth bomber. The New York Times reports Russia continues to build huge underground bunkers, some as large as cities, in case of war. She also continues to build an arsenal of chemical and biological weapons. Russia's nuclear arsenal remains the world's largest. She continues testing of her nuclear weapons. Such facts demonstrate that Lunev, who refuses to be photographed for security reasons, is not to be dismissed. INTERVIEW Ruddy: Colonel Lunev, you were first and foremost a spy for Russia who posed as a journalist. In your book you discuss the help you received from American journalists. How significant was the Russian penetration of the American press corps? How many American journalists were working for Russia? Lunev: In my book I talk about myself. Keep this in mind, when I worked in TASS' Washington bureau, I had two colleagues from the KGB also working as agents. So we had plenty of people undercover working as journalists. How many people they recruited? I don't know. But I can tell you that journalists, American journalists and foreign journalists in this country, were considered a major target. They were the same level of target as military, government personnel or Capitol Hill staff. Ruddy: When you say targets, you mean? Lunev: Recruits. Ruddy: It has been acknowledged that the East German government had as many as 5,000 spies working for it in West Germany. Lunev: East German intelligence was very successful. Very successful. I don't know exactly how many people they recruited, but they were very successful. Not only in penetrations through Western Germany and the European establishment, but through American institutions located in Western Europe. Ruddy: What do you think the degree of penetration is of the U.S. government by communist or former communist countries in the CIA, the FBI, and State Department? Lunev: It could be hundreds. But I don't know the exact number. Recently the FBI admitted there were a couple of hundred open cases of espionage they were investigating. These are the ones they know about. So you can multiply this number by many times to guess the number of people who are working as spies whom the government does not know about. Ruddy: You were not only a spy, but a military intelligence officer. Your work involved developing military plans and learning of other countries' plans. What did you study when you were in military schools in Russia? Lunev: We had a lot of special subjects we needed to learn, including military science. We learned basic ways of commanding armies and how to conduct military operations. Ruddy: How much of your training and education was geared toward fighting a nuclear war? Lunev: All of our educational process and training was connected to the actual fulfillment of military plans in time of a nuclear war. Ruddy: Your book suggests that the whole Russian military structure, the whole society during the Soviet era was geared for a nuclear war, and that has not changed under the new regime. Lunev: Yes. The Soviet plan was the use of strategic forces to destroy strategic targets in America and the West, followed by the use of nuclear and conventional forces. This was the Soviet way, and the Russian military still thinks the same way today. They are much more dangerous now because the Russian military is relying more on their nuclear weapons. Ruddy: What about a first strike on the United States? The likely plan does not include use of missiles first. First the Russians would use their special operation forces, special troops, inside of the United States to destroy targets like communications facilities, airfields, command centers, and other targets that might be difficult to destroy with a missile attack. Suitcase nuclear bombs at strategic locations are just one small part of their arsenal. I mentioned this in my book and I have been so surprised that the American public is so interested in this. Why? This is not something unusual for Russian military plans. Ruddy: One of your jobs here in the U.S. as a spy was to look for locations to hook up these suitcase nukes to electric power sources. It's not really necessary to have an electric power source because the devices can work on a battery. But not for very long. Ruddy: Are there such bombs in the United States already? Lunev: It's possible. Ruddy: How soon could this war come? Lunev: The Russian conventional forces are not in a state of readiness. Their rocket and nuclear forces are. This war scenario could be in place by the request of Russian government in a short time. Russia is a country on the edge of social explosion. The total decline of living conditions: human, industrial, political, social, and now the financial crisis. This could lead to war. Ruddy: It's dangerous because the Russians may consider their only option is to use the "gun." At the same time, the United States has been destroying its nuclear forces. Lunev: Yes! I am sorry, but let me ask you, what's going on in this country? Right now the Russians are engaging in criminal extortion for money. This is the same method criminals use. Every other day, in conversations with Western leaders, the Russians are saying "show me the money or something dangerous will happen in my country with tens of thousands of nuclear warheads." It's extortion. There could be an explosion, a catastrophe. It could happen in Russia, and somebody like a major general or a one-star general or colonel will come to power without any international experience. If such a person would come to power, pushing the nuclear button would be no problem. Ruddy: If that happened, how long would it take for a strong leader to get the conventional forces ready if he wanted to start a nuclear war against the United States? Lunev: A few months. You have to remember that the Russians have the same number of submarines, nuclear missile submarines, ships, bombers, fighters, tanks and the like as they did at the height of Soviet military power. I know that Russian military downswing was connected with Army divisions only, and these divisions could be rebuilt in weeks or months. Ruddy: China also is moving closer to Russia. China has the largest conventional army in the world. What danger does that pose? Lunev: If China and Russia would ally in a war against the United States, with Russia providing the strategic weapons and China the troops, they could begin the war tomorrow. Ruddy: Recent press reports state that the Russians have been helping the Chinese develop ballistic missile technology. Lunev: I would say that actually the Chinese missile industry was created by the Soviet Union, by Soviet specialists, by Soviet technology and by education of Chinese engineers and scientists in Soviet institutions. So the Soviet Union, let's say, played the major role in the establishment of the Chinese missile industry. But this was in the '50s before the Sino-Russia split. This split was healed in the late 1980s and any ideological obstacle for helping China was removed. China, of course, pays big money to Russia for this technology. Ruddy: Well, it does seem that some steps the Russians are taking suggest war preparations. They are building a huge underground complex in the Ural Mountains. Have you heard about that? Lunev: You ask about Yamantau Mountain. Well, this is a huge underground city which could be used in time when many Russian cities are destroyed, but the military and political elite will survive and live until our planet will try to restore itself. Ruddy: The American military is downsizing because there is no Warsaw Pact. We have let down our defenses. If the Russians were to launch a first strike, a surprise attack against the United States, they could wipe us almost off the map. European countries like Britain and France have small nuclear arsenals. If the U.S. does not exist, Russia rules the world because after an attack, she will still have a huge nuclear arsenal. Lunev: Yes. Ruddy: Is it possible that the Russian Communists planned this? That the intelligence agencies and the military establishment said, "Hey, if we give up Eastern Europe, if we throw open the economy, democratize, allow the country to seem in chaos, the Americans will let down their guard. We can get them to reduce their strategic nuclear forces, and they won't think of us as a threat." Lunev: I believe there was a plan. I cannot prove it to you. It is my hunch this is what happened. This is based on my experiences, things I saw going on. Because now, six years later, it looks like it was planned, but at that time we didn't have any idea that it was possible to plan all this activity. Ruddy: Well, it seems to me the most important information you have is that the Cold War isn't over: that the Russian military believes inevitably that there will be a war with the United States. Lunev: In April of 1998, Russia used its strategic bombers in an exercise against the United States. These exercises were organized for the future war against America. Before that there were several nuclear exercises. In the fall of 1998, President Yeltsin commissioned Peter the Great, the world's largest nuclear missile cruiser. They have been doing ground forces exercises. Airborne force exercises. All of these exercises are being conducted for a reason, for the future war against America. Ruddy: What do you think are the chances, I know this is highly speculative, that there will be a nuclear global war between Russia and the United States within the next five years? Lunev: I need to repeat myself. In a time of social explosion in Russia, nobody can exclude the possibility that it will begin. Preparations for this nuclear war are now being made in Russia. Ruddy: Would the Russian people support such a war? Lunev: In recent years and times, the feelings of the Russian people toward America have begun to change. The Russian people believe the United States is giving money to the corrupt Russian government, which never helps the ordinary Russians. America has identified herself so strongly with Yeltsin, and now Yeltsin and his government are viewed as corrupt. There is a perception that America, who destroyed the old Soviet Union, is again trying to destroy Russia. Ruddy: A former American general, Benjamin Partin, suggested that if, after the Allies had beaten Hitler in World War II, and the new German government was filled with ex-Nazis in the Cabinet, ex-Nazis in the military, ex-Nazis in the private businesses, would we believe we won? General Partin notes that in today's Russia, ex-Communists, many high-level Soviet officials, run most of the government and private businesses. Most of the republics are run by former Communists. Lunev: Well, almost all, yes. General Partin is correct in his concerns. Ruddy: It appears that in 1917 when the Communists came to power in Russia, they were not much more than organized crime figures. Lunev: Yes, they are the same. They are together. There is no difference. Ruddy: It seems this permanent government will be always seeking domination, whether official or through organized crime means. Lunev: And you are right, but how will you sell this idea to America? Ruddy: You can't sell it to America, because they believe all the bad guys just gave up with the end of the Cold War. One day it was all over, we won. End of story. Lunev: You should know this did not happen in one day, like on Christmas Day of 1991 when Gorbachev dissolved the Soviet Union. A long time before this the KGB began to transfer Communist Party money to private accounts under the names of different people in Western countries. At the same time the KGB moved some of their very experienced people, including generals, sometimes four-star generals, into the new private businesses being formed in Russia. For example, former KGB agents joined financial and industrial groups. Since they had intelligence backgrounds, they could be placed in various positions, like vice president in charge of personnel or foreign operations. The KGB established these private accounts, controlled by their own people using money from the CCCP - the Communist Party assets - for the future, for the future restoration of communism. Ruddy: The power of organized crime in Russia developed so quickly. What role did the KGB play in its rise to power? Lunev: The KGB and the old-line Communists needed to use criminals in this phase because who had experience in money laundering? Who has connections with drug cartels? With other organized crime groups in Western countries? The KGB worked closely with these groups and actually provided passports and permission for criminals to travel abroad. Organized crime in Russia has existed for a long time, as long as anyone can remember. Yet the criminals never played any sufficient or important role in Russian or Soviet society until the so-called reforms were begun under Gorbachev. Ruddy: You mentioned earlier that the KGB transferred funds outside of Russia for the future restoration of the Communist Party. Lunev: Yes, for the future. Ruddy: So people are thinking in terms of restoring the Communist Party there? Lunev: Yes, I think that they made plans to bring back the Communists. The Politburo accomplished this at the end of the 1980s and the early '90s when millions, if not billions, of dollars from Communist Party accounts were transferred by KGB officers with assistance and help from criminals. ------------- "Those who hope that we shall move away from the socialist path will be greatly disappointed. Every part of our program of perestroika...is fully based on the principle of more socialism and more democracy." -Mikhail Gorbachev Perestroika, New Thinking for Our Country and the World 1988

-- Andropovski (2000EOD@prodigy.net), February 14, 1999.