When the food runs out for the city folk and pet food is not available, what do you think will happen to old rover? He will be turned loose to fend for himself. He will more than likely join up with other dogs in a pack, as this is normal for them to do. They will roam the city and country, looking for food. What happens if the dogs and you cross paths? There may be up to 45 dogs to a pack. How many rounds does your pistol shoot? Do you think the owners will put the dogs down or turn them loose?

-- John Daum (ludlow@bellsouth.com), March 16, 1999

Answers

WHy dOEs dieTer CRy fOr innOCenTS AS Are theSE?????? PoOR CReaTureS, SHed as IS ThE EXCesS HAir!!!!! gOOd bOY SPoT, GOoD Boy!!!! NOW GO stARVE????? DIetER WiLL fEEd aND ADopT tHE STrAYS to hIs aBILiTy, is THaT NOT TRUe????? yes!!!!! iT IS PEOpLE ThaT DIEteR WIll lET STArvE!!!!! thEY ARE woRth thE LEssER OF ThE TWO!!!!! HYeNAS!!!

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), March 16, 1999.

There are roving dogs now. Where do you live? Get your mind ready to live like folks did when there was no dog-catchers....geez............

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), March 16, 1999.

If things get that bad I don't think you'll hear much complaining about 75 lbs. of feral protein dashing into range. A 45 dog pack wouldn't last for long if there are hungry mouths to feed. Can you say Korea?

-- DanlBoone (feral@fairgame.com), March 16, 1999.

Canabalism?

-- I Suppose (you@will.not), March 16, 1999.

There are several methods of dealing with packs of feral dogs... none of them are pleasant. At the risk of deeply offending the animal lovers here (of which I am one - I just love my family more), following are some methods of dealing with packs of dogs.

1. Poison, such as strychnine. Difficult to obtain, unless you're a farmer and have access to the stuff for coyote control. Requires use of meat for bait. Indiscriminate, can kill many other species. Animals die horribly. Safest and most effective from a human standpoint.

2. Shooting. Not a good idea with a large pack, unless there are at least a few shooters with high-capacity arms... even so, dogs may get close enough to bite. Watch for blod splatters at close range. Rabies shots perhaps unobtainable. May be the situation you will face if you choose not to use poison.

3. Pepper spray. The large canisters sold as bear repellent can buy you some time by disorienting the pack, during which you should shoot as many of the pack as you can. Stay upwind.

4. Trapping. Leghold or jawed traps, or even the larger Havahart models, will capture some of the animals. Will require meat for bait. Shoot them from a safe distance and keep an eye open for untrapped companions that may be lurking nearby.

5. Burmese Tiger Pit. Dig a pit at least four feet deep, and covr with brittle twigs. Line pit with upwards-pointing sharpened sticks. Bait with meat or meat juices. Shoot surviving animals.

6. Family dog pack. If you can arrange to have a number of dogs yourself, say 10 or so, and keep them fed, they will help defend you against predation by another pack of dogs. Do not become attached to them, as any that get in a fight with other dogs must be destroyed in case they have contracted rabies from a bite.

If necessity entails eating a killed dog, be careful of rabies and parasites. I have heard that rabies virus ceases to be viable at a temperature of 86 degrees F or lower - verify for yourself.

Enough, already... I certainly didn't enjoy writing that.

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 16, 1999.

I will keep the ones who make good guard and attack dogs to protect my digs. If they get hungry, the weaker, less useful dogs can be ground up for food. No problem.

-- @ (@@@.@), March 16, 1999.

Jeepers:

This forum has plumbed new depths. Now we hear that Spot will be seeing us as dinner objects.

I heard that the UN troops along the Mexican border considered wild dogs as delicacies - so, no need to worry. When TSHTF we will be secure in the knowledge that Spot will be providing sustenance to the NWO.

-- Y2K Pro (2@461.com), March 16, 1999.

I can't believe it! Y2K Pro actually said ">>>when<<< TSHTF"!!! <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 16, 1999.

"Urban Deer", anyone???? Yum, yum... Stock up on soy sauce. My DGI neighbors can feast on "Spot on a Stick". Let the cats go first.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), March 16, 1999.

And I haven't seen that word since... "Jeepers Sysman, you seem to have a lot of time on your hands." - YOU'RE BUSTED >>>VINNIE<<< <:)=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), March 16, 1999.

Sysman--

Nice catch.

-- Lobo (Hiding@woods.com), March 16, 1999.

Around my little county, with quite a few farmer/ranchers, the dog packs that are dangerous aren't even wild, starving, feral dogs. They're nice dogs. Dogs with collars. Dogs that go hunting with the farmers and trot outside next to the wife and kids. At night, they don't get locked up, and the minute they hit pack-quantity (not sure how many that is in dog psychology), they hunt.

Just a few managed to kill FOUR six foot tall ostriches on my friends' farm in minutes. And those birds were fairly close to the house. If you'd seen how big those ostriches were -- they may have skinny necks and legs but they are one heck of a meat source around the middle, and next to my adult frame they seemed pretty big. Later, a couple of dogs ripped up a good sized goat she'd left outside for a bit. There are collared dogs that run wild even right where I am, in the middle of town (well -- the center of town is like, 3 blocks long), doing "harmless" things like tearing up the trash.

After the ostrich incident, my entire view of dogs changed overnight. I love 'em. But if they're running wild anywhere near my two year old I'm going to shoot 'em on sight. My first thought on really "getting" the Y2K issue was, "My god. I need a gun. There are going to be farmer's dog packs everywhere."

My Chinese friend tells me she loves dogs. They're delicious. ;-) (No, really -- that IS one of her favorite jokes...)

PJ

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), March 16, 1999.

Well, I hadn't thought about that till now...great...When I see "animal safari" on TV, the most lethal hunters are the dog packs....they have the highest proficiency rate in killing...They make a kill everytime the pack goes out. Isn't that nice to know?

-- rick shade (Rickoshade@aol.com), March 16, 1999.

Rick,

There is one killer that is more proficient than dogs. I think we've proved ourselves pretty well.

Don't you just love the fact that our government has, in it's infinate widom and knowledge, limited us to 10 round mags?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), March 17, 1999.

Greybear: Don't worry; be happy. Government is to protect and serve. If they say you don't need bigger clips or even guns at all, who are YOU to say otherwise?

-- A (A@AisA.com), March 17, 1999.

Sparks, I have two suggestions with respect to your recommendations.

1. Strychnine retains its potency and will be transmitted to anything that eats the carcass, usually assumed to be other wildlife (I believe the reason it has been banned), but which could include humans if a food shortage develops. So any carcasses must be removed *immediately* and buried (difficult in the winter) or otherwise made unavailable. I recall there are other poisons available that do not result in indirect poisonings, but I do not remember what they are.

2. Leghold traps are indiscriminate. I worked in a wildlife rehab center for sometime and saw the debilitating problems that can develop from the wounds and fractures that are not obvious at the time an animal is first found in the trap. (In other words, other animals are unlikely to survive release, even if padded traps are used.) At a minimum, if feral dogs are the target, then I would recommend that the baited meat be covered since canines hunt as much or more by smell as by sight.

I'm with Dieter on this one. If things get bad, too many pet owners will be entirely irresponsible and release their pets to starve to death. One of many reasons I will be truly grateful if y2k is a bust. Better they humanely kill their pets with a hammer and take advantage of the meat.

By the way, in my bleeding heart state (and perhaps beyond), I cannot legally trap someone's pet in a havahart trap on my back stoop even though that animal is legally trespassing. Legally, I have to wait for whatever damage to occur and then sue the owner. Fat chance I'm going to wait that long.

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), March 17, 1999.

The more that I actually read through what DIetER says, the more good sense I see that he makes....

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), March 17, 1999.

This is NOT a new topic. I recall reading essentially the same discussion on a different board many months ago, like back in June or July.

My neighbor has a handsome young beagle whose natural urges to hunt, kill & devour are currently frustrated by an invisible fence. When/if the power goes down.... once he's figured it out... he's gonna think he died & went to heaven. Him & all his buddies. Suburbia is full of such fences. Maybe somewhere deep in their subconscious minds, the dogs KNOW.

I think about it now whenever I go for a walk. So will you, maybe.

-- they're (waiting@for.it), March 17, 1999.

Dieter ! You have heart.

It makes me sad to think of all those loved animals becoming victims of a Y2k meltdown. More sad than thinking of people becoming victims. People have some say in their fate (if they use half their brains) but the animals have no say at all.

"You are responsible forever, for what you have tamed." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery, The Little Prince

-- Bleeding Heart (thatsgratitude@forya.com), March 17, 1999.

italics off

-- Bleeding Heart (thatsgratitude@forya.com), March 17, 1999.

Yes, I believe that we may have a severe problem with dog packs. Potentially very dangerous for people, livestock, and pets. I'm still trying to figure out how to handle it, as their are a LOT of dogs in my rural area. And I've already had to deal with three dogs that moved onto my property after my neighbor abandoned them (fortunately, they didn't attack anything.) And two of a different neighbor's Chows that DID attack a friend in my own front yard. So it is a real issue for me, even now. If TSHIF, I'm wondering if I can bait a fenced-in area to attract any dog packs, then lock them in, and shoot the whole pack. But dogs are pretty smart. If you miss even one of the pack, they will remember the trap and never come near it again. I've decided that I definitely need to buy a shotgun, and learn how to use it properly. And I may need to build a dog-proof fence around my home, garden, and well area. Sure wish I didn't have to deal with this issue.

-- Debra (dgraff@vt.edu), March 17, 1999.

Dieter, Old Git has stashed, and will continue to stash, pet chow. You can sometimes buy broken bags at a greatly reduced price. But rebag these bargains in plastic zip-lock freezer bags, so that if moths have entered their larvae will be restricted to just the one bag. (I hope.) Old Git has a 6' fence around the backyard and hopes it will keep out vicious dogs. A shotgun will take care of those that threaten.

Don't limit your imagination to dogs. At the Carnivore Preservation Trust, near Pittsboro, NC, are a tiger and a lion, both former "guard cats" owned by unrelated Durham drug dealers. (Durham pop. 160,000.) The tiger has an atrophied back leg--it was fractured and the dealer couldn't get near it to take it for veterinary care. The animal was found, terribly emaciated, when the real estate company who rented the house, went in to clean up after the dealer was arrested. . .

Got Tiger Chow?

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), March 17, 1999.

After reading this thread, the idea of turning the sparks residence into a "compound" suddenly has new luster... oldgit, I like the idea of the six-foot fence, although that's still not high enough to keep deer out of the garden unless you add a lower fence just outside the higher one. Come to think of it, maybe I'll place the lower fence inside the higher one... that way dinner couldn't get out!

Just kidding... the deer population will probably approach zero fairly soon after Y2K, just as it did during the Great Depression. In any event the fence is a good idea, for protection against both four-and-two-legged predators.

Got razor wire?

(if you're building a compound, might as well go whole-hog...)

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 17, 1999.

Since dogs turned loose by residents won't have any fear of humans, once they form packs and begin hunting they won't have any fear of hunting humans. If you think that human predators will be the only beasts that need concern after TSHTF, just wait until you or one of your family meets up with a pack of hungry, urban wild dogs. Think what breeds are popular in the cities and imagine those Rottweilers, Pit Bulls who knows what else turned loose to fend for themselves, with no compunctions about attacking you for dinner.

I guess someone's thought about it, because twenty-two years ago I went through military training for post-nuclear attack recovery. One of the issues covered then was controlling the former pets. The military method is simple: "shoot on site" with no questions asked. I can imagine that if things get bad and urban DGIs start showing up at shelters with "Muffet" in tow, there could be some pretty contentious encounters at the doors.

I heard some horror stories about the hurricane evacuation shelter in New Orleans last year. I don't even want to think of what a Y2K shelter with a Y2K SHTF version of a "no pets policy" being enforced at the door would be like. But maybe then theshocked DGIs would finally be getting it.

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), March 17, 1999.

There IS ONE OTHER WAY to kill unwanted dogs. Old Eskimo way to get wolves. You put out meat, in which you have embedded razor blades; about a quater inch sticking thru upper the surface. All wolves/ dogs generally lick the food first , to make sure of what it is. When they taste their own blood, they excitedly lick some more !. They cut their tounges so badly, they will bleed to death. No poison. No waste of shells and if they wander away, other dogs will eat the carcass; NO need to bury . Eagle .... Circling ... Watching.

-- Harold Walker (e999eagle@freewwweb.com), March 17, 1999.

DIEtER Has a POpSIcLe fOr yOu!!!!!! LiCk LiCk mR. SIcK!!!!! wERe yOu drOPed On yoUr heAD TOo ofTeN????? evIl jaCKasS!!!!!

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), March 17, 1999.

I'm personally more worried about the HUMAN packs that might be roaming my neighborhood post-crapola hitting the fan.

-- Preparing (preparing@home.com), March 17, 1999.

Might carry a couple of machetes, one on each side your belt. I was surprised at how cheap they were at Wal-Mart. (Camping section; less than $10.) Not "Highlander" quality, but if you've got only a double-barrel or a small capacity clip and no more loaded, you might need to get down and dirty.

-- A (A@AisA.com), March 20, 1999.

Several valid points here. Dogs, feral or otherwise, are already problems in the country. They commit significant livestock depredation. They spread various diseases. They are indeed dangerous to humans as they have little or no fear. An unmentioned point is their crossbreeding with coyotes, whose range has increased greatly over the past decade. "Coydogs" are an even bigger problem.

I have never run into a pack of feral dogs larger than seven or eight animals. This pack was causing problems for my grandfather's cattle, and three of us with shotguns put them all down at the same time when we caught up with them. Through the years I had to kill a number of dogs who were chasing cattle or killing calves. I also had one up close and unpleasant encounter with a feral female who had a litter of pups in a derelict farm building. I would have been chewed on had I not been carrying a gun that day.

The typical farm pickup at home used to have a single-shot shotgun or a .22 rifle on board. Now most working farmers carry a centerfire scoped rifle because of dog and coyote problems. The general rule is to shoot on sight anything without a collar, or any canine WITH a collar doing something it shouldn't be doing. No questions asked... .

-- (li'ldog@ontheporch.com), March 20, 1999.

This is the first time I've ever considered purchasing a gun. I would never shoot a human (except myself), but I'd have no remorse shooting any attacking dogs. I've been bitten four times by dogs, and I don't want to encounter hunger crazed dogs, especially ROTTENweilers.

Back in the mid 80s when I lived out in the country I was walking down a road about 6:00 a.m. when suddenly I saw two huge spotted dogs, almost like small ponies in size, within meters of me. They were loose from where ever. Of course, I freaked, as I had no weapon. I knew I must not flee. I pawed the ground with my left foot and looked distracted. They looked at me and wandered off, as they were on the move looking and sniffing in hunt mode.

I like the idea of a machete, but their jaws have faster reflexes than my hands holding a heavy blade.

Why, oh why did I ever read these postings?

Dog gone!

-- dinosaur (dinosaur@williams-net.com), June 04, 1999.