I tried shooting an apple bin about 4 years ago with my husband's shotgun.The recoil nearly broke my shoulder(which was padded) & I got an apple tree not the bin ! Somebody suggested that an emergency flare gun might be easier to handle and have almost as nasty a consequence...especially at close quarters. I don't believe you need a licence either.Gun licences are increasingly difficult to get over here since the Hungerford & Dunblane massacres.

Is a flare gun a reasonable compromise or are there better suggestions !

-- Chris (griffen@globalnet.co.uk), March 25, 1999

Answers

Try shot gun shells with half loads. They can be purchased at Wal-Mart. Or you can shorten the barrel. The longer the barrel the harder the kick. One more option. Go to an Army surplus store and purchase a pistol grip stock for your shotgun. This way your hand and arm will help absorb the kick.

-- (Boilerman7@powerhouse.com), March 25, 1999.

DON'T use a Flare Gun inside!

You'll catch your house on fire!

Jolly

-- Jollyprez (jolly@prez.com), March 25, 1999.

The key to firing a shotgun is to point your elbow straight out sideways, and fit the buttstock into the hollow that creates just inside your shoulder. And use the sights, it doesn't spread as much as on TV. If still too much recoil, you might try a 20-gauge, still pretty hard-hitting to recipient. Don't know about flareguns, I'm thinking it's probably single-shot. A .223 rifle or M1-30 carbine will hit hard with very little recoil. Handguns are probably hardest for you to obtain, I'm guessing, but I've found full-size 9mm and 38 Specials very easy and comfortable to shoot.

-- Nope (not@thistime.com), March 25, 1999.

Chris, If the apple tree was not pretty close to the bin, then you might want to rethink the whole gun thing.

I'd recommend several things. Find some competent instruction other than your husband. That usually doesn't work too well. Shooting Clubs usually have a lot of instruction.

Next, learn familiarity with guns and gun safety by using a .22 rifle or a high quality air rifle. When I was growing up, every boy had a BB gun. Your father drilled it into your head that if you ever misused or mishandled that BB gun, you were in big trouble and you'd never get to carry a firearm in the field. .22's and air rifles are both deadly if misused, but they are cheap, easy and relatively quiet.

Finally, if you get to the point of wanting to take up shotgunning, I'd recommend shopping for a gas operated semiautomatic. These guns are much gentler than pumps, double guns or recoil operated semiautos. With a gas operated gun, your shoulder may be a little tender if you shoot two boxes of shells at the trap range, but it's not in the same category as the horse-kick that you get with many shotguns.

If you were a North Korean Riot Patrol Officer, you'd probably want a 12 guage short-barrel pump gun, but it doesn't sound like that's the case.

-- Puddintame (dit@dot.com), March 25, 1999.

Handgun - 9mm. High availability of parts and ammo. 12 ga. shotgun. Pump-action with multishell magazine and shortest barrel allowed. Devastating at close quarters and will not overpenetrate. Any type of high power deer rifle with a high power/quality scope. Kill 'em before they get close enough to kill you. Both a .22 rifle and pistol. Dirt cheap ammo. Make sure to have gun cleaning supplies, extra parts (like firing pins) and lots of ammo. Guns don't kill people, the ammo does. One more thing, always carry a revolver such as a .357 Magnum. More reliable then a semi-auto, will shoot .38 and .357 and can kill anything. Speedloader easily available also.

-- SilverBullet (Lead@inyourhead.com), March 25, 1999.

uh folks, if you'll look Chris is the U.K. which means, no handguns of anykind, and no semi-autos of anykind; she'd have to belong to a club to own a rifle, and then probably have to meet all kinds of storage and licensing requirements besides. basicly she's stuck with either a double barreled shotgun, a single barrel or *maybe* a pump with the magazine truncated to only hold two shells.

Chris - Jolly is absolutely right! flares that hit at close range splatter burning flare material all over the place - and they have no penetration to speak of either. A couple of things to consider: 1. if you missed by that much it's because you hadn't been given proper instruction on how to hold and aim the shotgun. as noted above proper training is the key to safe firearms handling - that must be your first priority.

if your primary purpose is self-defense at close range (i.e. inside your home, or some such) get shotgun shells that are loaded for skeet or trap shooters. The loads are lighter and less powerful (thus much less recoil) but at across-the-parlor distances that really wont matter much, you know?

another trick to cut down on recoil is to tape a lead weight (say a half kilo or so) on the side of the stock that is away from your cheek). This adds a significant amount of mass to the stock and slows down the recoil impulse...it can make a significant difference in your comfort level.

just a couple of suggestions there, but remember the big thing is SAFETY FIRST! Get proper instruction in safe firearms handling now, and always, always, always:

1. Keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.

2. Keep your finger off the trigger until your ready to shoot.

3. Keep the gun unloaded and stored safely when it's not in use.

Arlin Adams [who has his Certified Firarms Instructor hat on here for a minute.]

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), March 25, 1999.

Chris, Arlin says no semi-auto shotguns by law in UK. Sorry about that. I would consider that something of a discrimination issue. I'd say about 90% of the women I see on the trap and skeet range use a gas operated semi-auto because of recoil. I don't blame them.

You can also get a recoil reduction device that mounts on the business end of the barrel. It essentially vents the expanding gases in different directions to bleed off some of the recoil. Of course, they're probably illegal in UK also. Not to mention the fact that they tend to create deafening noise levels.

-- Puddintame (dit@dot.com), March 25, 1999.

All I want to know is where the Fuck is Ed Yourdon and his magical delete button when a post like this comes up?

You know why he won't get rid of it? Because it serves his best interest which is to keep you all scared and buying his books and videos. He is a lying sack of money hungry filth and I hope he chokes on a wad of hundred dollar bills.

-- (go to hell Ed @ Yourdon. com), March 25, 1999.

Fuck the laws. Gun ownership is a right regardless of what any government says. Read up on Hitler and the military raping of the Polish ghettos. I am never without a loaded handgun on my person and every vehicle I own contains a firearm. Most rooms of my home also do. Piss on the UK government, arm yourself at all costs.

-- SilverBullet (Lead@inyourhead.com), March 25, 1999.

The recoil of a rifle (of a shotgun too no doubt) is much easier to cope with when a rifle sling is used. Improves one's accuracy as well.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), March 25, 1999.

My thanks to all who answered except one.

Yep,we are in the UK,& have to abide by the laws.Well spotted!

"Go to Hell" seems to have his own agenda.

Why is he here??

Do I detect an underlying male chauvinist attitude to my question.SHAME ON YOU !!

We are having to plan for two possible locations come Dec 31st.

1.Living where we are at present,in the UK on outskirts of small town but on a well used canal towpath between two notorious areas of local authority housing estates.We suffer from petty thefts & occasional broken windows.Mainly youths,I think.We have a large visible garden & numerous outbuildings and an old man of 83, who is a soft touch,for a next door neighbour.We are surrounded by fields.

2.However,we are hoping to emmigrate to the Caribbean this summer where we shall be living 1/2 mile up a cane track from the nearest village in a rural area.As far as we can establish we shall be the only whites for about 10 miles as all the retired white folks live in a Western European/American enclave the other end of the Island.Since white folk are perceived as having more money or more valuable possessions,most domestic thefts at present are directed towards white households.We shall not be on the telephone & there are very strict gun laws.Most attacks or threats or fights involve machetes. (The flare gun suggestion, in fact, came from an expat living on the Island.) As for being scared,I didn't need to join this Forum,to realise that without law & order,society can rapidly unravel.I think I learnt that at school!

PS.Husband's shotgun has a half pistol grip,26 inch barrel.Pump action weapons,automatics and handguns are banned..22 rifle almost impossible to get a licence for but air rifle a distinct possibility. if we stay.I worked at Harwell (Atomic Energy Authority)for a while & proccedural safety has always been important so warnings & advice taken to heart!Haven't seen Home Alone but I gather it is a barrel of laughs. Anyone setting gun traps ?

-- Chris (griffen@globalnet.co.uk), March 25, 1999.

Just in case anyone doesn't know, gun traps are about as illegal as you can get. It doesn't matter if it's on your own property or in your own home or business. We're not talking misdemeanor here; more like murder. The Constitution doesn't guarantee a right to traps.

-- Puddintame (dit@dot.com), March 25, 1999.

Shotguns can be fired holding them tight to your side at your hip, in a point-and-shoot-from-the-hip method. Then you aren't letting the recoil drive the buttstock into your shoulder. This is similar to the "Old West" gunfighter method of pistol shooting from the hip, using body position to aim the gun. To use this method you must practice to learn relfexively where you are pointing your gun. (I hope you can afford a good deal of practice ammo.)

Personally, I've found that this is the easiest way to teach someone to use a shotgun. My wife is a very small woman and there is no way she can shoulder-fire a shotgun. But she can handle a twelve gauge very effectively in this manner.

Hip-shooting does cut down on your range, by lowering the height of the muzzle and it also will affect accuracy because you aren't sighting down the barrel. But *you're shooting a scattergun*, rifle- like accuracy isn't the issue. It's getting the shot pattern to cover the target.

This obviously isn't good hunting form and using this method for anything other than self-defense is not the optimum use of your weapon. But self-defense isn't about proper form, it's about what works. If your shoulder can't handle your gun's kick, then use both arms to hold the gun against your hip and let your entire body handle the recoil.

And about that flare pistol. If you think a shotgun shell makes a kick in a full-size shotgun, think about all that force concentrated into the palm of your hand if (as I interpret things) you take that ill advice to try and use a flare pistol to fire shotgun shells. Yes a marine flare and a twelve-gauge shell will interchange, but usually it's firing flares from a shotgun. Twelve gauge shotgun shells in a flare gun is definitely a "Kids, don't try this at home." trick.

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), March 25, 1999.

My question is, why in blazes are you moving from a place where you can't own a decent weapon, to ANOTHER place where you can't own a decent weapon, and are a minority group to boot? Firing an air rifle at a looter will most likely get you killed. Firing a (at most) two-shot weapon at a gang of looters will make you just as dead.

Have you considered moving to the States?

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 25, 1999.

Be aware that in the first five yards or so you'll only get a couple inches spread in your shot. Out to fifteen or twenty you have a good pattern. After that you normally get a "donut" pattern which could hit everthing except what you're aiming at--you need to change to a slug.

-- Shimrod (shimrod@lycosmail.com), March 25, 1999.

Build a "safe room" in your house. Hear they are the rage in your "gunless" country. See what happens when only the bad guys have the guns! You have to lock yourselves in a fortified closet while they ransack your home, nice country. You should have caught a boat over here a long time ago.

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), March 25, 1999.

I purchased two big sized water guns and when the time of danger is at hand, I will put a shot of tabasco sauce in them. Attackers with their eyes burning like hell will back off instantly. If they try again, then let them have it with a shotgun.

-- Prepared (Prepared@Y2K.com), March 26, 1999.

Chris, You never mentioned the bore of your husband's shotgun. I Assume from the recoil it was a 12 Bore(12 Gauge for us Yanks). Technique's used during the second world war to increase the effectiveness of shotguns were to do some things. First required the disassembly of the shotgun round. This involved rolling the round on a hard surface until the crimp failed and the shot came out. It was collected and set aside. Then the wadding was removed and saved. Then the propellent charge was removed. What was left was a primed hull.Then the chemist did things required for their situation. If a grenade was needed they would divide the powder into thirds. Two thirds were saved for rebuilding the shotshell, one third was saved for the grenade. This reduced the velocity of the shot by about 30% on a rebuilt shotshell.Recoil followed velocity. So the velocity of a remade round went from about 1300 feet/second to about 900 feet per second. Jerry didn't care because his flesh was penetrated at 350FPS. The next thing the Home Guard did to enhance the Lethality of the Home Guard shot shell was to take the shot and melt it into lead slugs. What they did was to take the shot and divide into thirds. They were melted into slugs and reloaded into the shell after the powder and wad was replaced.The slogs looked like cough drops. Some volume expander was needed at that point to produce the volume needed to fill the shot shell. Ground Maise(Corn meal to the Yanks) was used on top of the powder to fill the powder void. It was roasted at 300 degrees for 1 hour to drive off moisture which would foul the powder. The Home Guard also found the lead slugs would group tighter if the maise was used to fill the void in the shot shell left by casting the shot into slugs. They were seeing groupings of 2 inches for the shot shell slug rounds at 100 Yards. The theory at that time was(You have to remember Dunkirk denuded the Army of weapons) kill a kraut and use his rifle to save the crown. The Home Guard found shotgun powder was fast enough to shatter steel if mixed right and the excess powder which was removed from fowling piece weapon ammunition when washed in acetone and dried was more than up to the task of producing the desired results.

I think you might tear down some shotshells and divide the powder into thirds. Take 2 thirds of the powder and replace it into the shell. Then use the remaining volume and replace it with ground maise. Lastly re assemble the shell using dowels to press the wadding. Take ten or so re-assembled shot shells to the range. Shoot one or two with sand bags on the shotgun to verify they work. Then try the rest. You might feel at that time you've gotten the tiger by the tail. Save the remaining componets for a future use.

There are some sites on the Survival Web Ring which address the problems in the UK. One site has a very good cross bow schematic You might want to build. Since where you live is so restricted they may be useful.I apolgise for not keeping up with them to allow you the information you need. Gods Speed to you.

-- nine (nine_fingers@hotmail.com), March 26, 1999.

Far easier to buy, assemble and maintain are homemade lethal frisbees.

Basically all you need are a few plastic frisbees and a case of razor blades. You embed the blades in the edge of the frisbee, sharp side out. Then aim at target and throw. (Be careful. You may want to be wearing a leather glove on your throwing hand).

A good solid throw well aimed will slice the head off your opponent. A similar weapon was used on a James Bond film, however the frisbee was replaced by the less lethal top hat.

Other easily available weapons of defense include the 4000 pound block of iron that hangs from your ceiling and is activated by cutting the rope as your enemy walks underneath the block, the nerf baseball bat that has been soaked in sulfuric acid and the common toilet plunger with a hidden semtex charge in the rubbery poop expulsion end.

-- Craig (craig@ccinet.ab.ca), March 26, 1999.

Might I suggest that a defensive posture is inappropriate. Many highly effective offensive means are available from the Acme Co., which I am not associated with, but which provides excellent service.

Truly, the best defense is a good offense. I happen to ascribe to the "bait and bash" battle model first espoused by intellectual members of the German General Officers of the early 1900s.

I have used flare guns on many occasions. The results were, shall we say, mixed, but I appreciate a good singeing periodically as I do not have to hire salon professionals to deal with the hirsutism.

Basic flare gun theory requires use of the specially engineered Acme Reverse Shot Double Flare Gun. Subject is baited to vicinity of flare gun, then subject is approached in a menacing manner at which time subject sees nearby flare-gun, picks it up, aims, pulls and KABLOOEY.

Of course, this is theory. In reality I have had some difficulty dealing with subjects which have no arms or hands. As I approach in a menacing manner, the subject dances all around the flare gun futilely attempting to pick it up with his mouth. I watch until I can no longer stand it, then in a fit of rage, I pick up the gun , aim, pull and KABLOOEY. I have asked ACME's product engineers for a work- around to this situation and I have all confidence that it will be available by July 1. Best of luck.

-- Wiley C. Coyote (wild@wildwest.com), March 26, 1999.

Hey, Wile E ! Good to hear from you, how's your l awsuit going ?

-- Blue Himalayan (bh@k2.y), March 26, 1999.

Sir, I must require from you an instant apology as I have no association or relation to one Wile E. Coyote, a base poltroon whom I shall stick whip like a rented draft animal upon my first opportunity. I have had one misfortune of meeting the miserably pathetic Wile E. and and that time I had the pleasure of beating that disgraceful beast like a tethered yard dog. (The Acme Blackjack and Coyote Cane performed admirably I might add.)

I, Wiley *C* Coyote, am a gentleman and a highly successful predator, not a litigious accident prone buffoon. Acme, as the name might imply, is a weapons monger of the first order.

Wile E. has absolutly no business with any device more complicated than a hand-held slingshot. Rocket powered devices, giant rubber bands, catapults of significant size, spring-loaded mechanisms, jet packs, explosives, etc. are all tools of the accomplished expert.

I will point out that the flare gun functioned perfectly, it was I who made the error in that situation. Er, actually, *those* situations as it has happened several times.

-- Wiley C. Coyote (wile@wilewest.com), March 26, 1999.

Enjoy you missives Wiley. Let us hear from you more often.

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), March 26, 1999.

During WWII, shotshells (or ANY kind of ammo) was scarce. I remember my grandfather describing to me how he made "home-made" deer slugs from 12 gauge shotshells; size of shot unimportant. He would simply cut the shell off even with the crimp and pour melted beeswax in over the shot. It would harden into a solid blob of shot that acted sort of like one of today's Glazer Safety Slugs. In this way, he could hunt deer with #8 birdshot! The exposed shot/beeswax end makes the shotshell easily identifiable as a modified round.

-- Gerald R. Cox (grcox@internetwork.net), March 26, 1999.

Chris,

whew! no pump guns either! rough going. Sorry about the fact you drew some troll posts - though I have to admit I thought craig from canada's 'razor frisbees' was a riot! Laughed so hard I almost dropped my laptop!

thanks for paying serious attention to the safety procedures - 99.99 percent of all "accidents" are caused by people NOT following proper safety practices...

On the emmigration issue: if you're going to move to a relatively strange location, I would second the idea that you might want to look at moving to this country ...depending on where you live, ownership of just about anything is a distinct possibility.

just my 2 cents' worth, Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), March 26, 1999.

Chris,

Your defensive options seem pretty limited by your legal circumstances. Assuming you wish to maintain strict legality at the cost of limiting your defensive capabilities, you can do the following:

1) Get some more instruction/practice using the weapon which is available to you (I suggest from someone other than your significant other as an instructor). Selecting a load more appropriate to your physical size and strength and experience level might help. That is, find a lighter load that what your hubby may have on hand. Were I you I would not trifle with taking apart and reassembling ammunition but would find a suitable factory manufactured load.

2) Obtain a shotgun of your own. Even a single shot is worthwhile if that's all you can have, and they are relatively inexpensive. In addition you can get a smaller bore which will recoil less, and you can have the stock fitted to you which will increase your comfort and control in firing it. You will find that with practice it can be fired fairly rapidly if circumstances require (do get a gun with an automatic ejector).

3) A flare gun is a potential weapon (so is a rock) but it has some significant disadvantages. The main one is that flares are not especially good defensive projectiles and tend to set fires easily, as has been pointed out.

4) Very few of the modern 'nonlethal' defensive measures stack up very high against significant social problems in my estimation, though some of them do give a useful option in an escalating situation. There are some fairly effective pepper sprays on the market, for example, and they have uses within their limitations. Almost everything else requires you to be within arm's length of your assailant to use, and that is too close unless you are a serious martial artist (and your assailant has watched entirely too many Hollywood movies).

Good luck and be careful,

-- (li'ldog@ontheporch.com), March 27, 1999.

I am rather overwhelmed by all those answers.Brilliant.I liked the watergun & tabasco !

When we decided to emmigrate,three years ago,ironically we thought we wouldn't like to live in the States because of the number of guns about! Our caribbean Island,does have the advantage of heat,abundant tropical fruit,wild monkeys,pigs & great fishing.Water is gravity fed down the mountain but at the moment is 1/2 mile away.Locals are very friendly unless rum crazy & have a grievance(sometimes the grievance can be the colour of your skin but I guess that's not news.)We spent three months out there last year to see what is like living in the community.The great plus is that because of its Island nature & all the hurricanes,people are more philosophical about shortages.The Island economy is predominently rural(sugar cane)so no shortages of that commodity.If Y2K is a disaster we will be the only papermill in the Caribbean(albeit making by hand) using sugar cane trash & cotton grown on Island.If it doesn't,we should be one of the major tourist attractions for all those lovely cruise ships sailing out of Puerto Rico & Miami.

PS.After talking through the posts with "His Majesty",have decided to go for the Air Rifle option.Thanks again.

-- Chris (griffen@globalnet.co.uk), March 27, 1999.

"When we decided to emmigrate,three years ago,ironically we thought we wouldn't like to live in the States because of the number of guns about!"

You're a victim of either exteemely faulty reasoning or mind control if you honestly believe that more guns makes a country less safe.

"...have decided to go for the Air Rifle option."

Worse than useless. Chris and hubby = WMI's (Won't Make It). It's been nice knowing you.

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 27, 1999.