http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000eVK

This is a continuation of the above thread. I am starting a new thread because the original has moved too far down the list, and I consider the thoughts in the thread too important to have buried, with the consequences of no one reading and responding.

lil'dog - it isn't necessarily that people won't react to your list of atrocities, it is that almost everyone who responds to these mass death threads here on Yourdan has a very casual, an almost eager, attitude about their own ability to confront and decisively deal with preditors.

Most people on this list haven't even killed their own chicken, up close and personal - and they DO look at you and they DO know what is going on, especially when killing more than 3 or 4 at a time. A few have seen what bullets will do to a deer or larger animal. But almost everyone who responds says they will have no problem killing a fellow human being - and of course, it is always within the constraints you list in your post - so far no preditors have joined the discourse and given us the view of the aggressor.

I don't think life is cheap in America. In fact I think that life is so precious in America that even the military has gone to absurd, expensive lengths, to insure that death is insulated from the up close and personal view. We kill, of course, but it is antiseptic killing, in order that the person killing is somehow absolved from the act of killing. If we kill in America, up close and personal, it is because we Fear the Other. And that Fear somehow justifies the action.

Li'l dog, I've been shot, I know first hand what it feels like, physically and psychologically. As I said in another thread, I assume that I could act when/if preditors aggressed - but I will not know for sure until that time - and neither does anyone else on this Forum, except for those who have been in high-test combat.

We talk of Prep Items regularly on this list. Well, what do we need to have on hand to clean up after a fire fight? It has to be cleaned up because, if not, it will bring in all sorts of disease vectors. A body, even a small one, has way more blood in it than they ever show in the movies or on TV. They never show vicera and brains sprayed all over the walls and floor in movies or TV. They don't show how hard it is to clean up afterward. And most importantly, I think, movies and TV, almost never show the killer's psychological reaction to killing a fellow human being - and there is one.

And there is a psychological reaction in those who clean up afterward.

And there will be a psychological reaction if one of your own are among the dead.

It isn't that there is a guarantee that Civil Disorder or Plague will happen next year, it is just that the probability levels for these happening are high enough that their consequences should be addressed, in order that those who wish to prepare, can. I'm a newbie and I'm trying to come to grips with the really bad scenarios.

If we feel that Civil Disorder and/or Plague may visit our area of safety we need to plan for them. Ain't talking bullets here, I'm talking procedures for keep the living from being contaminated. If there is a fire fight in or around your safe area the blood and vicera must be cleaned up, there are just too many contagious diseases inherent in those two vectors. So I'm assuming that we will need extra Clorox, extra water, extra soap. We will need to be able to move the bodies, and bodies, if not in rigor mortis, are a bitch to move around - very sloppy and heavy, even when not leaking or draining blood or vicera - and blasted bones can be very sharp, sharp enough to poke thru clothing or light gloves & the skin underneath.

If clean up is left till later, two or three days, the body or bodies will begin to bloat unless frozen, and if it is summertime there will be maggots crawling in the open flesh, eyes, nose, mouth, & rectum and sex organs (if the clothing was torn away by the fight or if dogs have savaged the corpse). And if one waits a few days after that, the body or bodies will become difficult to move as they will no longer hold together in one piece. The smell will be very bad by then too. So, we will need face masks and protective gloves also. At that stage of rot, corpses are quite slick due to the body fat breaking loose from the fat cells. Again, clean up, both personal and clothing is imperative. We will need extra Simple Green.

We have been considering only the results of a Fire Fight. Let's consider Plague.

Plague could very well be a major killer. That 30 Million without water thread has a lot of ramifications, foremost being, the raising of the probability of Plague happening in our own area.

First of all death by Plague isn't instant like in a gun fight. It may be a matter of a very few days or it can be perhaps as long as two weeks. During the time of illness the person will have to be cared for, and I am assuming a level of human compassion here, I am assuming that you will not just throw the sickie out and force him/her/them away from your Safe Zone. Leska may be the best one of us to talk about this subject, so Leska chime in please if you would.

I imagine that people with Plague will be contagious in various fashions, perhaps in different time frames of the sickness. Body secretions such as sweat, spittle, vomit, urine, and feces all could be vector for infection. Caughing, sneezing are two air vectors - blood, lymph are two body contact vectors. Some of the plagues have sypmptoms of enlarged lymph glands or pockets of pus either of which can explode, again creating health risk for those who are caregivers. What do we need in our planning kits then? Rubber gloves, face masks, lots of hot water, soap, protective clothing. Ways to clean our shoes and clothing. Ways to clean the bedding, the mattresses, the pillows, the floors, the walls. Will Clorox be a broad enough disinfectant? What about Lysol?

How does one keep the sick person comfortable? How high are the fevers? Can they drink water? How do you dispose of their urine and feces in a safe fashion? If it is cold winter where you are at, how do you keep the sick room warm - after all we will be needing some sort of isolation in order to try and contain the Plague from spreading.

If Plague visits your Safe Place and spreads to more than one person, if it spreads to several, and it is in your Safe Neighborhood too, what does one do? It could easily be that only a few would remain resistant or recover and caregiving will devolve onto those people. How do we do this? How can we take care of Plague victims when they outnumber the caregivers? Plagues, once established, have a tendancy to revisit many, many times.

How do we transport the dead? Especially if the body is messy.

Disposal of the dead.

Whether those killed in a Fire Fight or those who are killed by Plagues, the bodies must be disposed of somehow. For those living in the North during winter burial could be very difficult. In warmer climes the ground will be softer. But I have reservations about burial when/if the number of bodies climbs. Beyond the actual physical labor if there are no backhoes or earthworking machineries available, there could easily be a secondary problem of contaminating water sources. Yet, when one considers the amount of wood necessary to actually burn a body, let alone perhaps hundreds or thousands, I cannot see cremation as a very viable option either. (for those of you who think these numbers are high go to the library and check out some of the history books that either deal with Plagues or have chapters on Plagues - I can guarantee they will open your eyes very wide).

Finally, what do we do with the dead's personal effects?

Boots, shoes, clothing, eyeglasses, dental silver and gold, body parts (for those who collect them), guns and ammo, stored food and goods.

Once again, I'm not saying any of this WILL happen. I do, however, think that the probabilities of these types of scenarios are high enough that they need consideration and perhaps some planning. I realize that I'm one of the hardest of the "10's" that speak out on this Forum, and you the reader may not be there, you may have Faith that it won't get that bad. Faith plays no part in my personal estimations. I process the info gained from almost 20 months of study and contacts, then do highly personal forecasts of probability based upon my particular site. Your reaction to your study may lead you in a different direction than mine.

Those guys and gals working on the Electricity just better have it up and running reliable come y2k!

-- Mitchell Barnes (spanda@inreach.com), March 27, 1999

Answers

Mitchell,

I am in complete agreement with your thesis that it is enitrely appropriate to ask these questions and attempt to prepare for the horrible results. I also do not know what may happen.

I have attempted to make this point before here. While not even attempting to address the probability, I can easily believe that if there is a possibility that we may have to deal with these problems then they are too serious to dismiss just because they are distasteful.

This point is, in my opinion, one of the pivotal points in mental preparation. To wit, can you think about, examine in detail, and attempt to make preparations for VERY unplesant, distasteful, and downright gory events?

As the inevitable protests appear on this thread, we must also realized that some among us just cannot deal with these questions. Their vitriolic and acrimonious replies must be tolerated. This too is part of the scene. It's just not a very pretty world anymore and it's not likely to bet much better any time soon.

As to the practicalities of the problems: My general approach will be to handle bodies as soon after death as possible and as little as possible. Quick burial with a coat of lime. The disease communication problem are very difficult. We plan to have a seperate building reserved as a "hospital" or quarentine place.

Again, while these question are very difficult for a "civilized" person to deal with they are also part of self reliance. It ain't all beans, spam, seeds, and those fun guns.

--Greybear, who has been on both ends of people being shot and has some small idea of the results.

-Got Bleach?

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), March 27, 1999.

Another problem to consider is what you will do with a severely wounded adversary who may or may not survive the initial injury. There is a legal and psychological difference between killing in self-defense and killing someone who has been rendered relatively harmless. What if the adversary begins begging for help? For water, food, pain relief, or mercy? Will you nurse someone who just tried to kill you, or finish the job? Or leave it to God and try to ignore the sounds until they stop of their own accord? I hope I never have to make this decision.

-- Helen (sstaten@fullnet.net), March 27, 1999.

Mitchell,

Gray Bear said, "This point is, in my opinion, one of the pivotal points in mental preparation. To wit, can you think about, examine in detail, and attempt to make preparations for VERY unplesant, distasteful, and downright gory events?"

To change that a bit- can you make preparations for _EVERY_ unpleasant, distasteful and downright gory event? Unfortunately, no. You can't. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do what you can to prepare, mentally as well as physically.

So what people will do is the best they can under the circumstances, as they pretty much do anyway. Some will do better than others. And that's about it. I suppose some mental exercise in exploring the darker side might be necessary, for some people anyway. I simply don't know how much the people reading this already know about such things. No doubt some of those who need it will find sufficient food for thought here, I dare say.

I don't find it necessary to belabor any of the points you brought up. But I'd rather not spend time thinking about such things, partially because I have enough experience in various forms of unpleasantness as it is. Yes, truly terrible things happen. Yes, someone has to clean up afterward (or, as in Uganda, masses of the dead simply go unburied decades later). Yes, there are potential psychological implications to all this. After all, the abyss does indeed stare back- that's one reason I'd as soon not to spend too much time with it. I cannot confront all that is bad or evil in the world and overcome it. That's beyond my capability. But I will do what I can to deal with whatever microcosm of it that shows up in my AO in the most systematically efficient manner possible. That's the best I can do.

Tell me, what do you contemplate when your mind turns to PLEASANT thoughts??

-- (li'ldog@ontheporch.com), March 27, 1999.

I'm responding to Barne's Thread.

Yes, you may be one of the harshest 10's I've encountered and the first to speak about plauge. Scary to contemplate considering I've got a young child on the way and a wife who isn't neccessarily concerned about the ramifications of Y2K. She hates to talk about the possibility.

But, that aside, I want to know what you would place in a first aid kit for yourself basing the start on what the American Red Cross begins with. Sorry I don't have the link.

Clorox, yes. Rubber gloves, disenfectant, but god what else to keep yourself safe if in fact we do experience something that is contaigous.

Other than that, I am interested in how you arrive at your conclusions of the possibilities. You deduction. I am not certain I am a 10, though I am trying desperatly to reason out the multitude of possibilities without going insane.

Looking forward to your response.

Father

-- Thomas Hale (hale.t@worldnet.att.net), March 27, 1999.

Mitchell -- Agree 100%. While likelihood of plague et al may be minimal, it will be far greater next year than in "normal" year, which is really the basis for most prep, isn't it? I'm not stupid or arrogant enough to think I will be up to what you say, but we are doing what we can on all fronts.

My wife (nurse-midwife) has ordered $1K of supplies to handle all kinds of nasty 3rd-world style emergencies and we'll be putting in another order within a month or so. Her sister is EMT, brother-in-law paramedic (he's handled some nasty stuff himself) and fair number of community known to us are EMT. 'Course, you're talking about entire different order, but my point is: here is where knowing folks in your community personally may be big help ("how about some food in return for burying ....."?). Seriously.

I recommend checking out and ordering from Henry Schein, which you can do even if you're not medical professional (though some stuff requires DEA number, obviously): 1-800-772-4346. 360 page catalog, they've got nearly everything.

Mitchell, what DO you think about when you're thinking PLEASANTLY?

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), March 27, 1999.

Big Dog - I'm sure that many people would like to see the list of medical products that your wife and sister consider important. Could you post it here or recommend a URL that has preparedness medical products lists?

One factor that will reduce infectous diseases (somewhat) in very rural areas is lack of transportation. Isolation works.

-- Ken Seger (kenseger@earthlink.net), March 27, 1999.

The most important thing one can do right now, before one is forced to either kill in self-defense, or watch others die from disease, is to steel oneself to it. A method I have found useful to help face unpleasantness, whether it be killing a deer or slaughtering a chicken, is what is termed "creative visualization." I won't go into detail here, as there is a great deal of material available on this subject, both on the net and in print. It basically involves relaxation, closing your eyes, and mentally walking yourself through the unpleasant situation to a successful conclusion. It must be done repeatedly to take hold, but once the proper attitude is embraced, it is empowering in the extreme. For example, I used to get a terrible case of "buck fever", or the jitters, whenever I'd get a deer in range while hunting (incidentally, I don't consider myself a "sportsman" - damn little sport in killing a creature with a high-powered rifle, if you ask me - I just want venison, all of which I use). Sometimes I'd shake so bad, I wouldn't even attempt the shot. One summer I read a lot about CV, and and and decided to apply it towards my hunting anxiety. It worked like a proverbial charm that fall - when I encountered the first deer of the season and sighted him through the scope, the rifle might as well have been set in concrete - not so much as a jitter, and I noticed after downing him that my heartbeat hadn't increased in the slightest. Even gutting the creature was a breeze compared to before. I became a believer in CV after that, and have successfully applied it to many areas of my life, not the least of which has been any possible altercations with criminal types, and the aftereffects of either war or pestilence.

Now might be a good time to cultivate an interest creative visualization. Done properly and practiced often, it will give you the attitude adjustment needed if you're to survive the type of future Mitchell postulates.

-- sparks (wireless@home.com), March 27, 1999.

If you're a history buff like me, you may be interested in reading A Journal of the Plague Year by Daniel Defoe.

It is here, however, to be observed that after the funerals became so many that people could not toll the bell, mourn or weep, or wear black for one another, as they did before; no, nor so much as make coffins for those that died...

-- Max Dixon (Ogden, Utah USA) (mcdixon@konnections.com), March 27, 1999.

Greybear, I have great tolerance with flamers, less tolerance for stupidity. (my problem not theirs ). A quick couple of questions here for you. You speak of quick burial and a coat of lime. My area has very shallow soil with very hard underpan. Unless I have access to a tractor and backhoe I know that two feet will be the limit, and in the summertime I doubt a big hole can even be dug that deep by hand. Because of the extreme fire danger here in the summer cremation is out of the question. Will lime do its job fast enough when the body is that close to the surface? And secondly, could you elaborate upon your "hospital" plans because I'm against the wall on this one and could use someone's practical guidance to get me up to speed. Helen - wow, I hadn't thought of that one, a real biggie. Both your example and the one discussed in a prior thread about Plague people coming and asking for help highlight our practical, moral, and ethical dilemma. People, what do we do in such generalized conditions? Do we finish the job, like we would with a wounded deer? Do we push away those approaching us with Plague? My, ever so brave thinking process says to kill the aggressor, but I know it will not be that easy in real life. My gut reaction says to keep Plague people away from the Safe Place. Anyone else?

l'ildog - you are right, no event can be fully prepared for. Part of this exercise is allowing me and those who want to play, to exchange ideas and to examine our prep and psychic states in an attempt at becomming just that leg up bit more resiliant if such a horror time ever visits us in person. I like your metaphore of the abyss indeed staring back. I am of the personality that sees myself in the abyss staring back at myself, so any light I can bring to this side helps, and I too rarely blink.

Thomas Hale asks about medical supplies. Tom, I've seen the Red Cross, or some other list, what to say? We don't even have band aid's in the house, and the Neosporin tube is empty? One reason I've been _on with dealing with Plague is to try and find out what _is needed. Bleach, rubber gloves, face masks, standard disinfectant routines for shoes, clothing, and personal body, how to clean a "hospital" or quarantine room (how to construct one that is easy to clean?) Will big rolls of thick plastic work on the walls and floor, then burn the plastic? How does one deal with bedding, food and water trays and glasses? Bathing of the ill? What do we do if the room becomes overcrowded? I've got too many questions and not enough answers. Do we have any military medics here that might be able to give some ideas that don't involve the standard hospital routine?

Tom, I hope you and wife are considering contact with a midwife, and in any case, best of luck.

Tom, you addy looks real so I will answer you about how I arrive at my "10" privately as I've posted that stuff here some time ago and don't want to clutter up this thread. If you addy isn't real, contact me and I'll talk with you.

BigDog, thanks for the Henry Schein contact. Could you talk about your 3rd World medical necessaries? I am very interested.

sparks, your contribution of creative visualization is great. This is one of the techniques I was hoping someone would talk about! I've used it to deal with stage fright and it absolutely worked.

Max Dixon, thanks for the pointer to Defoe, this time I d/l'd it . Just happens I've been reading about Defoe in another book I currently going thru.

li'ldog and BigDog ask what I think about when I think about Pleasant things. I'm sorry, I broke out laughing when I read that, just tickled my funny bone.

I'm your basic very simple Taoist. My interests currently are the determining the shape of the universe, it's topography, as I see, determined by the means we consciously integrate the world's myths using, what are now, highly abstract linguistic devices and icons piled layer upon layer. These icons appear to be resonant with the human nervous system itself, and in a puzzling way actually seem to call forth the human nervous system via means of origination myths. Man contemplates the unknown, creates myths and numinous landscapes, languange evolves the numinosity into icons which then shape our very perception of our world at an unconscious level. Rather like Oroboros. Spengler, and Goethe both wrote of cycles, Goethe highly influenced by the icon of the German Forest, perhaps Spengler too. I can only conclude that cycles only appear cyclic within certain reality frames, one such being, linear time, another being language itself. Cycles and language appear to me to be much more easily understandable when one contemplates the universe, as human experience being a series of topological folds. In other words, it seems more real to speak of a single human experience elaborated upon endlessly, it seems more real to speak of perception as being an accumulation of similar events. Language itself being both that which calls matter into being and that which is called into being by matter, ourselves elaborating and calling forth ever more ornate linguistic ornaments, our perception of which is created by an endless succession of super- imposed selves. Currently, there is quite a bit of advanced topological language study being done. Fractals, theories of sets, holography, and the writings on borderline choas conditions all pertain to this area. Jung's Archetypes and the bardo states written of in the Tibetan Book of the Dead are fairly sophisticated analyses of this "folded" topological space I call reality. The second book of the Avatamsaka Sutra is rife with folded space realities.

We humans are tellers of stories. I figure, might as well make them fun and interesting. I am a very simple man striving to live always NOW, not in the past and not for the future.

-- Mitchell Barnes (spanda@inreach.com), March 27, 1999.

Mitchell --- my wife and I divide up the prep tasks and I am VERY ignorant on the medical side, but I'll ask her to give me her list and any thoughts she has. Keep in mind I don't think she has been thinking of PLAGUE specifically, but definitely all types of dark situations, yes. This may take a couple of days but I will bring the thread up to the top when I get the info.

BTW, Milne was a military medic. And his wife has nursing training. Why don't you email him? fedinfo@halifax.com, I believe.

As for what you think of PLEASANTLY, sheesh, does the phrase, "wound tight" mean anything to you? :-) For instance, as someone who grew up in Connecticut, I am at this moment living in the NOW, enjoying UCONN's Final Four victory over Ohio State. GO, HUSKIES! That beats the Ouroboros cold if you ask me .....

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), March 27, 1999.

Big Dog, heh, heh, heh, oh you mean, what do I do for recreation? < EWBG> I'm doing an evening out at Karaoke tonight - big party. Tomorrow eve I'm going to perform at the local bar singing and playing accoustic guitar.

-- Mitchell Barnes (spanda@inreach.com), March 27, 1999.

Mitch and all:

One of the things I have found that sets the Medics apart from the rest of the people is the ability to compartmentalize things. this does NOT mean separate things and not process them or not deal with them. It DOES mean that when I respond to an incident, I "Click On" as my SEAL friends describe it. When someone later asks how I handle "all the blood" I have a hard time explaining that to me, it isn't "BLOOD", it's "blood-a connective tissue fluid used to transport O2, CO2, and nutrients" without which my patient dies. Yes, the scene is red-splashed, but I only notice this as an aid in determining how much is gone.

This comes from training and practice. A typical civilian is going to have to find a place inside themselves from which they can do what needs to be done, and react when the situation is handled. Having siad this, how well do I handle a medical problem with my bride?? NOT WELL until I can get clicked on, which might not happen, in some situations, and never happens quick enough.

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (reinzoo@en.com), March 27, 1999.

Are we talking about Bubonic Plague? Caused by bacteria carried by fleas. Historically, plague times were times when people had no idea that cleanliness had anything to do with health. There were a lot of rats and mice carrying the plague, and people also commonly had fleas in those days. So keeping clean a good idea, for starters. And killing rats/mice in your area. Daily ingestion of herbs that are strongly antibacterial would be a good idea. The only one I know that does not kill off our own "good" intestinal flora, does not imbalance any constitutional type, and is also antiviral, is Turmeric. A teaspoon (or two, if ill or in high infection area) twice a day, with food, not on empty stomach. I am stockpiling several pounds of turmeric. It is so good for so many things. (Read Turmeric, The Ayurvedic Spice of Life by Prashanti de Jager from books@dhanvantri.com) Put it on wounds for both antiseptic action and fast healing. The best antiflammatory in the world, better than any drug. Antifungal. Treats microbialdiarrhea and dysentery. Helpful in many cancers. Antidotes scorpion, snakebites. Reduces cholesterol. etc. etc. Many people take it just to have beautiful skin. I have been taking it for health reasons, but suddenly notice that two large dark moles I have had for years are disappearing, literally. Anyway, this is such a simple, safe, and inexpensive remedy. Do try to get it non-irradiated. (My work is in natural health. I have not found another herb as all-around incredible as turmeric.)

-- Shivani Arjuna (odnsmall@aol.com), March 27, 1999.

I almost hate to answer this but how about feeding the dead to dogs or zoo animals?

-- Idea man (grossed_out@NW.byNW), March 28, 1999.

It's the Circle of Life....

feeding the dogs isn't the worst idea I can think of...

unless the dogs get sick.

-- recycling lifeforce (but@we_need_it.now), March 28, 1999.

Dadgummit! I had flea powder down for the dogs and cats but now I have to go buy area sprays for the yard.

OBTW..a 50/50 mix of diatomaceous earth and borax is a good flea preventer. Vacuum your carpet well and then sweep the mix around like you would with carpet freshener. We do it twice a year--no fleas. (thats with 3 dogs and 4 cats). Oh, don't shampoo or vacuum for two weeks. (a broom is ok). This gives the mix a chance to get the hatchlings.

Chuck...I'm a RN (ER/ICU/Transplant), 11 years as a EMT-P/Deputy Sheriff (Tampa FL) and a long history of 'other' things. If you have trouble getting something that is not on the proscribed list, let me know. I have access to almost everything not controlled by the Rx board. I can get you sutures, gloves etc. (my cost plus shipping). Use the email address (it's real)

"Do not go gentle into the good night".

-- Lobo (atthelair@yahoo.com), March 28, 1999.

Only been cut once in a fight with a bunch of goofs. The reaction from others after the fight was interesting and it does stick in your mind, I guess forever. It happened some 25 years ago and I can still see the knife coming at me. It is a strange thing to look at the tiny scare and think that someone wanted to do me harm, for no reason!

About chickens and slaughtering...My six year old son wanted to watch me slaughter a chicken one day. He was standing about 3-4 feet away and when I did the deed and some chicken blood splattered on his arm, he started screaming in terror at this and has not forgotten the incidence. He is now in the Mediterranean in the Navy. Getting close to home if you ask me.

-- Mark Hillyard (foster@inreach.com), March 28, 1999.

Mitchell,

I will confess to being unsure whether your initial post was an effort at trollery. Since it appears I was mistaken I'll try to share a few things that may be helpful for you and any others following this thread. Everyone's experiences differ widely and these days I am still occasionally surprised at how few people deal with "real" stuff on a regular basis.

I spent a number of years working in the Army special operations community. A few years ago (after Special Forces began recruiting from all branches, not just combat arms) an acquaintance who at the time was running the initial entry assessment for Special Forces qualification told me that one of the problems some candidates were having was that they were afraid to spend the night in the woods. We do indeed live in interesting times.

You bring up a number of points, several of which could require an entire book or several books to cover. As I understand it the following are salient:

1) Doing violence to other humans or animals

2) Precautions and treatments for various contagions

3) Cleaning up the detritus of both of the above

A former psychologist for the 82nd Airborne Division wrote something to the effect that as far as killing was concerned most Americans were like virgins thinking about sex. His name is Dave Grossman and the book is _On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society_. It's still in print, and is the most enlightening thing I've ever seen on the subject. I recommend it to you highly. Most people have the idea that soldiers slaughter their enemies with wanton abandon, and Grossman sets the issue straight with many historical examples. One of the biggest problems armies have had is GETTING their soldiers to kill the enemy AT ALL. Other military writers like S.L.A. Marshall have explored this issue as well.

From a personal preparation standpoint the best document available is a booklet by Jeff Cooper called _Principles of Personal Defense_. It too is still in print. It is only about 40 pages long but it distills the wisdom and experience of generations of gunfighters between its slender covers. If you are one of the people who bought your first gun because of y2k concerns you are being derelict in your responsibilities if you have not purchased and studied this booklet. I hasten to add that reading this or any book will not make up for lack of instruction at the hands of a qualified teacher.

As far as my own beliefs are concerned, though I grew up in a traditional Christian home I still believe in what might be called karma. Humans are apex predators pure and simple. We are omnivorous. But there are other aspects to this, spiritual aspects if you will, that go beyond surface issues. It is impossible to kill anything for any reason without personal consequence. Therefore killing is not something to be undertaken lightly. If it is done for the right reasons and in the right way the consequences are bearable. If not, there is a signifiant price to pay. My beliefs are fairly close to what I understand were/are those of Native Americans and many other so-called primitive peoples in this respect.

As to the medical aspects of the other questions you bring up, I can only suggest a bare minimum of ideas here. This response is so brief that it may seem a dismissal of the issues. It is not- there is good information out there, fairly widely available, on the basic issues. Handling mass casualties or significant contagion is a daunting prospect indeed. It should not be undertaken lightly. It is a community task and will require community assets.

Having a qualified medical professional or professionals around is the best bet, supported by a fairly sophisticated infrastructure. This is too difficult and expensive a task for DIY (do it yourself), as are so many aspects of life without the support of our evolved complex social structure. This is why division of labor is such an important consideration in thinking about the possible consequences of y2k- it's impossible for one person or even a small group to incorporate the complex skills that make modern life possible.

This does not prevent you from owning a copy of _The Merck Manual_, _Where There Is No Doctor_, _Ditch Medicine_, _Medicine For Mountaineering_, or any of dozens of other useful books. It does not prevent you from going out and taking a basic first aid course or emergency medical technician course. It doesn't stop you from buying whatever supplies you can afford and know how to use.

By the same token, a good source of clean water, good basic nutrition supplemented by a knowledge of herbs, good sanitation, and basic health precautions will go a long way toward preventing many health problems. This is precious knowledge unappreciated for most of human history and we should not discount it too quickly or value it too lightly. Humans are pretty durable creatures even though some of them don't realize that.

-- (li'ldog@ontheporch.com), March 28, 1999.

li'ldog, thank you for hanging in on this thread. You have boiled my questions down correctly.

"A former psychologist for the 82nd Airborne Division wrote something to the effect that as far as killing was concerned most Americans were like virgins thinking about sex."

This states it with considerable wit, backing up my observation re Net casualness re killing. Thanks for the Grossman reference. And since I am one of those "new gun owners" thank you for the Cooper reference. Appreciated! Fortunately we have two NRA certified "trainers" here on the hill, friends of mine, who are open and very willing and have been helping many of us up here develop safe and useful gun skills.

We do have two active EMTs and perhaps two others who are no longer active. Unfortunately only one of these is doing y2k prep, but he is one of those who really gets off on community service, so I tag him as a community valuable asset. The others I just don't know. I see him regularly and will sound him out re dealing with casualities and mass contagion, we have already talked about emergency and trauma medicine.

"_The Merck Manual_, _Where There Is No Doctor_, _Ditch Medicine_, _Medicine For Mountaineering_"

Again thank for the references.

At the risk of appearing foolish, oh well that has never stopped me, I really am a newbie in this area. It wasn't until I got the majority of the standard prep stuff out of the way that I began exploring larger y2k ramifications. This and the other threads where I've been raising the issues of health, plague, gun violence, clean-up, etc. are my learning curve made visible. The thoughtful feedback from you all is welcomed.

Shivani Arjuna - thanks for the heads up on Tumeric. As you Dance, may your bowstring never break and your arrow always hit the mark.

-- Mitchell Barnes (spanda@inreach.com), March 28, 1999.