The Serbian War: Why!

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

It seems obvious to me that the current occupant of the White House is every bit as much of a megalomaniac as any number of other current "world leaders" and that our own home grown one is more than a little concerned with the image history will paint of him.

The question of, "Why Serbia and not Rwanda or any of numerous other deserving locations?", has bothered a lot of people, and some quite publicly as evidenced by the Sunday "talking heads" shows of yesterday.

Perhaps the question, "Why now?", is more relevant.

What better time to perform an "historical good deed" that might overshadow a "mere domestic sex scandal" and the second impeachment in US history?

-- Hardliner (searcher@internet.com), March 29, 1999

Answers

I do not know why now or why not somewhere else? However, I just heard on Fox News that two former Military advisors just said, "the if Kosovo does not back down then an ground war is inevitable. And if Nato leaders to not have plans for this, wether, public or not public, would be a huge mistake!"

-- p (p@p.p), March 29, 1999.

U.S. foreign policy advisor, Rodney King: "Can't we all just get along?"

The children of the 60s (now running the show) can't stand it when people are not being nice to each other. Bad karma.

Defense Dept. now the official let's-hold-hands-and-sing-Kumbaya patrol. Too bad some of our sons and brothers and fathers are going to get greased in the process.

-- rick blaine (y2kazoo@hotmail.com), March 29, 1999.


er, folks, it appears that since ethnic cleansing is unthinkable, the whitehouse decided not to think about it...another week of successful airstrikes and the problem will be 'solved' in that there wont be a live ethnic albanian anywhere in serbia...wonder if NATO will declare victory and go home when that happens?

for some reason I am still constantly amazed at the lack of forethought exhibited by the current administration.

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), March 29, 1999.


Thanks to Clinton, Milo has now achieved all the following, without lifting a finger:

Milo's wishing US Presidents could serve 3 terms !

-- Blue Himalayan (bh@k2.y), March 29, 1999.

What's weird is, I've just been reading a book on how the Chechens kicked the Russians' ass, but good! Why can't the KLA do likewise to the Serbs, NATO never helped the Chechens ...

-- Blue Himalayan (bh@k2.y), March 29, 1999.


whY????? EAsY!!!!! ToO MAny thREaTS!!!!! aND THeN.....

go AheAD, StEp OVeR ThIS LiNE!!!!! oH, OK, WEll THeN, stEP OVeR THis OnE!!!!! OH, alLRigHT, SteP OvER THis ONE!!!!! CRaP!!!! i doUBLe daRE You To dO IT agaIN HERE On thIS ONe!!!!!! ACk!! nOw I reALLy meAN IT, doN'T SteP OVeR THis oNE OR ELse!!!!!! daMn!!!! NoW I'm geTTiNG MAd, DOn'T STeP OVEr tHIS oNE!!!!!!! StoPIT!!!! Do nOT STep OVeR THis ONE, I reALLy mEAn iT!!!!!! SHiT!!!!! Ok PaL, yOU ArE IN bIg trOUbLE if yOU SteP OVER THis onE!!!!!! DAmNIT!!!!! DOn'T Do IT AGaIN HErE!!!!!

(Off CameRA) mR. pREsiDEnT, whAT ABoUT The ChINEsE SpIEs?????

OK, NuKE 'Em In kOSovO!!!!!

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), March 29, 1999.


Let's not blame it on the 60s, shall we? The vocal of the 60s did not want us in a "civil war" in Indochina,...really really irks me when the easy targets become those who opposed all military action. Shall we talk about the "sell-outs" among that group? The Tom Haydens, the Bill Clintons,.....the sell-outs who found money and decided it was in their best interests to join the madding crowd of politicians and capitalists? Caramba,...don't confuse correlation with causality...Bill Clinton was never a flower child.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), March 29, 1999.

Thanks also to Clinton, Russia is now the only country of any importance that can become the great peace makers. They are already sending Primakov to Serbia to talk peace. Russia can also talk to Iraq and North Korea which we cannot. If Russia cuts any kind of a peace deal anywhere and saves Clinton's ass, I'll bet they get all the IMF money they want. I think Clinton knows he can't hold out with this bombing thing much longer. He is many things, but stupid is not one of them. Remember, "The business of America is business" He wants out of this thing with NATO still in tact. The Russians could do this for him.

Bill in South Carolina

-- Bill Solorzano (notaclue@webtv.net), March 29, 1999.


Whatever happened to "Gotta get back to doing the work of the American people"?

Is jumping head first into a 700 year old ethic squabble on the other side of the globe "the work of the American people"?

-- rick blaine (y2kazoo@hotmail.com), March 29, 1999.


Dieter,...I LOVE IT....borderlines....step over this line please!!!!!!!!! As usual,..you are a troll supreme and sublime!

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), March 29, 1999.


Clinton has something to prove, his military prowess. How he came up with this spot? I think he threw a dart. Why now? To leave a legacy.

He has no military background and has used the military more than any other prez in the last fifty years. He protested the Vietnam war and yet wants to "prevent WWIII", as if he knows how the military operates. We have no justification for being there. We cannot prevent the ethnic wars that have been going on for hundreds of years in that region and will continue long after we leave.

Bill, I like that train of thought. It does put Russia in a different light, as a peace maker.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), March 29, 1999.


No kidding, Rick. No,...this is securing a place in history books to balance out the impeachment paragraph, eh?

My questions: Why do people continue to play this silly little game...? Why do you continue to flock to voting booths and play the ridiculous game? Do you really think you "know" the candidate"? Why do you want someone you don't know to 'rule you'? Name yourselves. Who is a purposeful non-voter, tax-payer? Name yourselves. They cannot play this game without our compliance...The reason why they are bombing Serbians is because they can....there is no other reason....Divorce yourself from the madness. Resistance is possessing the secret of joy.

She stands lonely but content upon her faraway hill...

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), March 29, 1999.


Oh Donna, standing so lonely. Dintja hear? The Dow closed above 10 grand. All's right with the world. An extra martini at the club this evening! Maybe lease *another* Lexus this week.

What's that? Some freckle-faced youngsters from flyover country are about to die on foreign soil? Oh well, can't be bothered right now. I smell a stock split on the horizon.

-- rick blaine (y2kazoo@hotmail.com), March 29, 1999.


P.S.

Glad to see you back, Donna B.

-- rick blaine (y2kazoo@hotmail.com), March 29, 1999.


I hear you Rick, but I don't live in that world...a dinosaur here...no stocks, no nothing, just me.

"There are times when one would like to hang the whole human race, and finish the farce." Mark Twain, 1871

"I say we lift off and nuke the entire site from orbit." Ellen Ripley, Aliens

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), March 29, 1999.



Hardliner,

I couldn't agree with you more. This whole situation shows just how much our own government can twist logic and drama to fit a position. I too wonder "why now?" but also "why not now?" and Dieter's point is right on.

It seems to me that NATO, as a whole, is equally responsible for the current situation. We should have taken action quickly a few months ago but the country was preoccupied with other issues. Also, we were pushing for a peaceful end. I don't think nearly enough has been made about the lengths that Russian and the U.S. and NATO pushed for a peaceful end. I think they gave Milo far too many opportunities to NOT accept peace.

Regarding the current administration. I wonder how Bob Dole's outspoken tone regarding the Serb War fits into what is happening right now? Milo treated Bob like crap and Bob came back saying that this was the only action left. I don't see ol' Bob as a puppet for the Clinton Administration at all. There are many Viet Nam Veteran Senators and Congressman who say we should make sure we win this action.

Regarding Rwanda. Isn't the situation in Africa really very different in some very important aspects? It deals with conflicts between tribes that may go back much further than the history of Europe. Also, they use machetes and hide in jungles. It's a much tougher proposition to fight a war in that area and you can't do it with air power. Wouldn't it require a very large ground action in that area? Also, which leaders do you target? What is the goal? If you think that the politics in Kosovo is complicated then how do you view the conflicts in Africa? Also, Clinton suffered the loss of our Peacekeepers there before. He might understand the "no win" situation of Africa very well. Which side do you take in Africa?

I see the Serb War as being a tribal conflict too but with much more explosive prospects and NATO is acting as a confused alliance pushed into the only action they have left. Too bad because it's a situation that NATO itself created. Unfortunately, if we don't support NATO now then what are we left with in Europe? What choice are we left with?

Do you want the world to exist with a weakened and broken NATO or do you want to enjoy the stability that NATO has, in part, provided for the last 50 years?

The real question is "How do YOU want it to end?"

Unfortunately, we are in there knee deep. Our military is currently in the midst of real war where they might die. Let's make sure we support their actions and that we win this thing. If we don't then we may all be toast.

Mike ====================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), March 29, 1999.


No Michael, the situation is Rwanda is NOT different. It is much worse, but there was no NATO action. Kosovos has been a hotbed of civil disruption for at least 600 years. Tell me how it is different. Folks can justify this as long as the cows come home, it doesn't make it an action that should spark NATO intervention any more than any other in the world....that there are US citizens that are buying the propaganda is staggering to me. Ask: Where is the profit? Who benefits? Who is manipulating what? Who gets their face on camera? What corporations have at least peripheral interest in what is happening over there?

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), March 29, 1999.

Here's a cynical view that - which will never be confirmed because confirmation would mean U.S. officials could get called before world court on big time war crimes.

Take a look at the ordinance that is being used here and in Iraq (last I checked we were still blasting them). The Cruise Mis. and Smart Bombs. Programmable, using GPS guidance.... Suppose you had a warehouse full on non compliant - what do you do. Use em up and replace with freshly manufactured compliant and presto chango you've addressed a couple compliance issues....

Pretty sick (sickening) thought, but I personally wouldn't put anything past the "man" in the whitehouse or military advisers with a heep of Y2K to be fixed...

Musings like this are bad for your mental health, forget I even mentioned it.

jh

-- john hebert (jt_hebert@hotmail.com), March 29, 1999.


All I can say is that they should have thought about the consequences of thousands of refugees fleeing into surrounding Albania and Macedonia.

As well as getting a military offensive ready they should have been getting humanitarian reflief efforts underway to deal with all the subsequent refugees.

-- Very (distressed@refugees.xxx), March 29, 1999.


Donna,

I agree with you. What I meant was that it's easier to "sell" this war than to "sell" an action in Africa. The nose cone footage wouldn't be possible and we would see the kinds of images on our tv that made the Viet Nam war tough to sell. Actually, we're very close in our views. However, regarding the tribal conflicts in Africa, are they not more complicated? They certainly go back further than 600 years to a time when if you were the victor you made all your captured villages your slaves. Also, isn't it true that the Ethnic Albanians have occupied Kosovo for the last 600 years and it was Milo who decided they should go by what ever means necessary?

Mike ==============================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), March 29, 1999.


Yah, Mike, I agree with your premise that it's easier to sell this war than one in Rwanda. The questions remain. Why is it easier? Why? Why is one million not genocide and 100K is? What dog is wagging what tail? Who benefits? Where's the money?

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), March 29, 1999.

Michael,

You have no clue what you're talking about. Your knowlege of the history of that area is dim.

Kosovo to Serbia is what Gettysburg is to a New York American. Kosovo was part of Yugoslavia. Kosovo decided to seceed for independence. Serbia said "no." It's a civil war, period.

I'm starting a new thread to give some facts to this deal going on here. I'm using your post above as a platform to launch from.

...3...2....1

-- INVAR (gundark@aol.com), March 29, 1999.


WHY???? wHy????? EAsY onE #2!!!!!! CaN YoU SaY "DEeP tAN"??????? tOo mUCh tImE In THe SUn??????? cAn yOu sAY "SAvaGeS"?????? spEar chUCkERS??????? toO maNy blACk fACes FOr U.S. tv??????? puh- LeAse!!!!! GivE DIetER A toUGH onE!!!!!!! It'S A giMMie!!!!!!

-- Dieter (questions@toask.com), March 29, 1999.

Unfortunately most people in the US don't understand the real motives and implications behind the US war against the Southern States....if they did, they might not be so quick to call for arms to shore up the Serbians...I am opposed to all of it, no matter what. You cannot bomb to create peace....oxymoronic.

-- Donna Barthuley (moment@pacbell.net), March 29, 1999.

"Perhaps the question, "Why now?", is more relevant."

Maybe it is just hopeful thinking, but I wonder if the NATO attack on the former Soviet Union (without the NWO/UN blessing) shows a "crack in the armour" of the NWO. Even if it is not intentional, I am extremely happy to see NATO moving without UN blessing, even if this particular move is the most stupid, bone-headed move possible (superfically - I don't have intelligence reports to enlighten me).

I can't believe the Western public falls for the "ethnic cleansing" line so much, though! With the rarest of exceptions, wars are always based on ethnic, racial or religious differences. The media makes this war sound special somehow, when it is not. I guess we don't learn much history from MTV and The Simpsons.

Anyway, it looks like Russia will save the day, with a peace agreement that their former countrymen can live with. Here is a great URL for inside info, THANKS (!!!) TO DIANE:

http://www.st ratfor.com/crisis/kosovo/Default.htm

-- Anonymous99 (Anonymous99@Anonymous.com), March 29, 1999.


Donna & Mike,

Excellent exchange on a very difficult subject. My take is as follows: The Serb/Albanian conflict evolved into a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation in EUROPE. Thats the difference between this and Rwanda. It isn't about numbers of dead and tortured. Its about where it is. Milo's actions have the potential to destabilize the Greece/Turkey standoff. (Remember Cyprus is still a big problem between them.)The Greeks have a natural affinity for the Serbs and the Turks for the Albanians because of religion (Orthodox Christian vs Muslim). NATO should have acted a year ago with troops as part of a "humanitarian" aid action and put a buffer in place. This mini-war has nothing to do with non-compliant munitions or Monica. It has everything to do with lack of foresight and consistency in policy. If we have decided to use troops, I hope they use overwhelming force early. Massive bombing raids, knock down the Serbian infrastructure, target every troop concentration in Kosovo (B1/B2/B52) saturation offense- fuel/air weapons, etc. Military history is clear. If you are going to use force, use a BIG stick early. Total casualties on both sides are lower if you do.

I don't like this conflict, but get it over quick or the consequences will be dire.

-- RD. ->H (drherr@erols.com), March 29, 1999.


We want the oil in the Bosporus, and to control pipelines in the surrounding regions. This is a big anglo american oil project. We don't care about the Kosovar Albanians - they're marxist drug-runners for gods sake, Worse genocidal maniacs than the Serbs. We could care less about "genocide" - the Russians are calling the Serbs genocidal, and they're right. Both sides are. It's all about oil. No one cares about a bj in the coatroom. If this is to wag anything, it's about overshadowing the selling of secrets to china for campaign contributions, ala "Year of the Rat."

Prepared.

-- Prepared (eaglesnest@soup.com), March 29, 1999.


Hardliner,

The title of your post asked "Why?". This very question has been rattling around in my mind also. So many things about this whole mess did not make any sense. For example, why NATO troops in Kosovo rather than a UN force? Didn't the bureaucrats and policy makers realize that the Serbs would never accept NATO troops on their soveriegn territory? And, as pointed out by many others, we left the Rawandans to be slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands, and we didn't lift a finger. But, now we charge into a situation where the bloodshed, at least at the start, was limited to 2,000 people. Things were not adding up to me.

But, now I think that the underpinnings of this mess can be explained in the following article from World Tribune. Basically, the article says that the Kosovo Liberation Army is being funded and directed by Iran and Islamic radicals who seek to expand their influence on the Adriatic Peninsula. If there is even a sliver of truth in this, then the mealy bureacrats/politicians who populate the European/U.S. halls of government would have shivered in dread as they watched the ascendancy of the KLA. Being lily-white, good and righteous Christians they surely felt that they had to blunt any Islamic tendencies in the region. And I suspect that one among them raised an inspirational finger towards Heavan and said, "Ah Hah!! I've got it!! What we need to do is put our boys into Kosovo! This essentially gives us a garrison right in the middle of the Infidels' territory! Milosevic will love us for it! We take the two-front pressure off of him and simultaneously solve our problems with the Muslims!"

And, thus was born one of the biggest fuckups in modern history. Milosevic did not cooperate. He is not stupid. All is quiet on his northern front (Bosnia), so he is seizing the oportunity brutally deal with his southern front (Kosovo). And, now some of the brightest of the Best-And-Brightest are proposing that we arm the KLA. This is a complete reversal of the Rambouillet provision that the KLA would be disarmed. Don't you know that the Iranians are ROTFLTAO. Sweet revenge for "I thought that it was a neat idea!"

>>>>>>>begin>>>>>>> European analysts see Iranian hand behind Kosovo conflict

By Steve Rodan SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM

Wednesday, March 24, 1999

To most in the West, the fighting in Kosovo is the result of an oppressive Yugoslav regime that seeks to quell independence for an Albanian majority in the province. But quietly European defense and diplomatic representatives regard the Kosovo rebellion as a success of radical Islamic states, such as Iran, and groups such as that of Osama Bin Laden.

As they see it, Kosovo has become the latest and most significant arena for radical Islamic states and groups that seek to widen their influence in Europe. Nobody argues that Islamic elements fomented the conflicts in the Balkans. But they say Iran, Saudi Arabia and some of their terrorist beneficiaries have exploited the fighting to establish a sphere of influence that spans from Greece to the Austrian border.

Islamic groups as far away as Pakistan have called for support of the fighters in Kosovo. "The type of cruel and oppressive tactics followed by Serb aggressors in Kosovo and the Balkans is a declaration of war against humanity and the whole Muslim Ummah," the Jamaat Islami, Pakistan, said in a recent statement.

That realization, the diplomats and defense sources say, is why European leaders are increasingly hesitant in approving NATO strikes against Yugoslavia.

"The gap between the public political rhetoric and the private professional discussions is huge," a European defense official said. "Europe is beginning to realize that Kosovo is not just about a rebellion. It's about a growing Iranian attempt to support and dominate movements in states in Europe."

Reuven Paz, who teaches at Haifa University, is regarded as one of Israel's leading researchers of radical Islamic movements, particularly Hamas. He says Iran and Saudi Arabia view the conflicts in Kosovo and Bosnia as that pitting Islam against Christianity.

"All of the Sunni Muslim groups as well as Iran are making lots of propaganda for Kosovo and see it as a symbol," Paz said. "As Europe tries to unite, there could be a lot more unity between the Muslims on the margins of Europe. There is potential that this unity could be used in a hostile way."

Western intelligence sources as well as diplomats said the major supporter of the Kosovo Liberation Army has been Iran and Islamic radicals. They said the Iranian influence began during the Yugoslav civil war in which thousands of Islamic fighters, called mujahadeen, were brought from Afghanistan to help Bosnian forces.

With the establishment of an independent republic, Iran quickly gained control of the government in Sarajevo. The mujahadeen, up to 7,000 of them, were allowed to stay and many of them married local Muslim women. Iran moved it with financial aid to the Muslim government that amounted to tens of millions of dollars annually.

By the mid-1990s, Iranian agents established a base in Albania, which has not had a central government in nearly a decade. Iranian Revolutionary Guards provided weapons, money and training to Kosovo rebels. Iranian and Saudi representatives launched charities and banks.

From Albania, Iranian agents moved to Kosovo. In Prizren, Iranian envoys formed a society funded by the Iranian Culture Center in Belgrade and sent groups of Kosovars to Iran to study militant Islam.

By 1998, Iran was smuggling in weapons and fighters, the sources said. Commando units entered Kosovo last May to help the KLA. These units were comprised of Albanians, Bosnians, Egyptians, Macedonians and Saudis. By August, the Saudis were ordered to leave the units and Riyad, strapped financially, reduced financial support to the KLA.

"It's clear that this is an issue on the Islamic agenda," says Boaz Ganor, director of the International Policy Institute of Counterterrorism, based in Herzliya, Israel. "This phenomenon is marked by waves. First, the mujahadeen were in Afghanistan. Then the war ended and they had nothing to do. The Kosovo arena for them is both ideological and a source of employment."

The weapons and money have been smuggled from both Albania and Bosnia. In December, Croatian authorities said they seized close to $1 million of weapons brought from Bosnia that was headed for Kosovo. The route for smuggling, regional diplomats say, has been the Adriatic Sea.

Other weapons were smuggled in cargo shipments classified as humanitarian aid. One such shipment was uncovered by Croatian police in the port of Split in September. Several tons of weapons and ammunition were stored in crates marked humanitarian aid.

Yugoslav authorities say the weapons include rifles, mortars and communications systems made in the United States and Israel.

Today, says the Federation of American Scientists, a prominent group of researchers which often consults U.S. administrations, the KLA contains 1,000 mercenaries from Albania, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Croatia and Yemen. KLA training camps are in four Albanian cities under the influence of former Albanian President Sali Berisha.

Yugoslav officials say the KLA's goal is to sever Kosovo from Yugoslavia and merge it with Albania. But Western strategists go further. They say an Islamic Kosovo could serve as a bridge for an Iranian sphere of influence that would soon join Albania in the east to Bosnia in the west. They say Macedonia, which also contains a significant Muslim population, would soon succumb to Iranian control.

The argument is echoed by KLA representatives themselves in their arguments for Muslim support. At the Islamabad conference, a KLA envoy, according to a report by the London-based monthly Filistin al- Muslimah, "explained the geographical and strategic importance of Kosovo in the connection between the Islamic centers of Bosnia, Kosovo, Albania and Macedonia."

Quietly, the Iranian element in Kosovo is being discussed in Washington, particularly in Congress. Analysts have warned that U.S. troops in Kosovo under the NATO umbrella would be more vulnerable than ever as Islamic agents would smuggle weapons and people from Bosnia and Albania.

"At this point, however, nobody is really listening," a congressional analyst says. "The Belgrade government and Milosevic, in particular, has been so clumsy in dealing with Kosovo that all the real issues have been lost. Everybody is talking about Milosevic as the evil man of Europe as if his removal solves everything."

The concern of European strategists is that an Iranian sphere of influence would do greater damage to such Western countries as Britain, France and Germany. France has about two million Muslims, most of them poorand alienated. Britain has about 1.5 million.

"The United States might not realize it, but many European countries have serious minority problems," a Central European diplomat says. "Once these minorities feel that they can obtain the support of NATO, we could see flare-ups everywhere. Nobody really knows the answer to Kosovo but many of us feel that giving the KLA an air force is the worst solution possible."

Wednesday, March 24, 1999 Contact The World Tribune at world@worldtribune.com <<<<<<
-- No No (nono@nogo.com), March 29, 1999.


As to the "Why now?" question, don't forget that this action happened just after Hungary and Poland were admitted into NATO.

Dieter, your analysis is, as usual, succinct and to the point. (Remember it was that Libyan guy--choose the name-spelling of your choice--who originally talked about the "line of death" in the Med and kept changing it every time a US ship crossed it. Robin Williams had a variation on that theme too.)

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), March 29, 1999.


Can anybody here say PLOESTI???? Can you say OIL?? Can you say ROMANIA?? Can you say CARPATHIANS?? Look at the geography. Look at the history (Can you say Archduke Ferdinand??) Kosovo is the tinder box sitting on the powder keg of the world. the area that the world community tossed lines around and called Yugoslavia.

Do we need any more reasons??

i don't buy the ethnic cleansing at all. It does sell very well. NPR has been a sketch lately. Three weeks ago they were interviewing people asking about intervention possibilities as if the intervention couldn't come too soon. Now they have reverted back to anti-military action type. BLEAHCH!!

For an effing Rhodes Scholar to completely MISS the implication of Primakov turning his plane around when his REAL reason for coming was to talk to the IMF is unbelievable!!

I really really wish I had a wine cellar. And didn't live down the stret from one of teh torpedo (and other ordinance) shops.

Chuck, who looks REALLY BAD in glow-in-the-dark.

-- Chuck, a night driver (reinzoo@en.com), March 29, 1999.


Here's a good kosovo article from those stratfor guys anonymous 99 linked us too.. Lots of geo-pol inrigue, for those who like that kind of thing.



-- humpty (
no.6@thevillage.com), March 29, 1999.


Maria,

>He has no military background and has used the military more than any other prez in the last fifty years.

As I've said elsewhere, Clinton's approval rating would be lower if it weren't for the backlash against all the exaggerations, lies, and just plain ignorant statements spouted by his attackers.

You really think Clinton has used the military more than any other prez in the last 50 years? More than Truman in Korea? More than Johnson and Nixon in Vietnam? More than Bush in Kuwait and Iraq? My, what a selective memory you have...

-- No Spam Please (No_Spam_Please@anon_ymous.com), March 30, 1999.


Some day some one wil dig up our clay tablets. Nice ONE!!

-- && (&&@&&.con), March 30, 1999.

You know Hardliner, it's been awhile since we had a good war, hasn't it? A generation in and out of uniform have not known that glorious, manly surge of heading off to fight a hidious hun.

Door-to-door and man-to-man. Always in a far-off land.

They don't know what you, I and some others here know. Neither Steven Spielberg, nor CNN can capture the smell of death on film.

I'm Serbian. My grandfather was one of Draja Mahilovic's lieutenants. He was 3rd in command of the Serbian "freedom fighter" guerillas who fought the Nazis and the Communists under Tito at the same time. My grandfather had to hide from Tito's hit squads until 1970. He was a man possessed with revenge for his Croatian neighbors who butchered his family and friends, arm-in-arm with the Nazis. He hated the traitorous actions of his countrymen more than the invaders.

He kept photos of the slaughter hidden in a book in his library and told my cousin and I, when we were 16 and 18, that it was our duty to the family to never forget. He said that revenge was "mens' work" and the Serbian Orthodox Church even supported "our" work.

I didn't accept his invitation into the dark world of revenge. But, I know that I resisted because I didn't know those people in the photos. Had I known them, perhaps I could not have resisted the pressure to do "mens' work."

My generation had it's own glorious war to fly off to in a far-off land. Door-to-door and trail-to-trail. Most don't remember the "glory" of leaving, but they forever remember the smell of death.

-- PNG (png@gol.com), March 30, 1999.


Invar, you're right, like most Americans I am clueless regarding the precise political twists and turns of Yugoslavia, Bosnia, Kosovo, etc.

However, you seem to completely avoid anything else that I raised regarding NATO. Why? Instead of starting a new thread why not just give your detailed opinion here?

As for the situation being a civil war, I agree with you. However, I think it's more complicated than what you've written.

How do I feel? We shouldn't be there. We are there. What do we do now? We should win. NATO must win. We will not come out of this 100% in the right but we can't let NATO become weakened by this action.

There are no simple answers to this situation. Is that an incorrect statement?

I'm asking questions because I don't know. I'm asking questions because I want to understand. I want to learn. I don't hold myself up as an expert in anything. In fact, I never met an expert of anything in any field no matter how high they hold themselves up. If there were people that know everything about any particular subject then we wouldn't be making the same mistakes over and over again, would we?

RD, thanks for your take. It allows me more insight and I totally agree with you regarding the geography being an important factor. Rwanda is not Europe. We share a lot in our dislike of this situation. I've said this elsewhere...this whole mess scares me. I have that same awful problem Chuck has with "glow in the dark".

PNG, as usual, you provide insight on a personal level that allows insight into the real situation. Can you see any way out of this without doing damage to NATO and the U.S.?

You raise a point that has been really bothering me. As I drive around sunny Southern California I'm absolutely perplexed at how "normal" our everyday lives are. A few thousand miles away we are bombing and our military is putting their lives on the line and no one here seems to be bothered by it, affected by it. It's strange and surreal. It's arrogant.

I remember being back in high school back in 1980 and being fearful of the USSR and nuclear winter. Heck, I remember protesting with my classmates. Now, I see the way people have become complacent regarding the world and these issues and it worries me. Heck, the Dow closed up above 10,000 today. We are moving on like we're fearless. I think we're actually just clueless.

Mike ==================================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mt4design@aol.com), March 30, 1999.


Deiter, at alia::

the OTHER reason not Africa is the widespread expectation that the continent will be 60% depopulated thanks (ugh) to the AIDS virus in a minimal number of years. Why would you expose your troops to this??

-- Chuck, a night driver (reinzoo@en.com), March 31, 1999.


Why now? How about to head off a recession/depression. That's what worked before, and no doubt will be used again. It's no coincidence that the Dow hit 10g. Examining the evidence, I find no basis to believe that any of those in power have humanitarian motives; you have to admit, though, that they're great sellers.

As one poster pointed out, if our leaders were truly concerned about the welfare of those in Kosovo, they would have prepared for the inevitable flood of refugees.

As a Canadian, I am ashamed that my country attacked a country without being attacked. To make it worse, we attacked without declaring war and with no clear objective. Of course, historically, attacking another country IS a declaration of war. So, with how many countries are we now at war? And are there ANY that we were not the agressors? It makes me sick!

We had a proud record of *peace-keeping* 'til this decade. No longer.

-- Tricia the Canuck (jayles@telusplanet.net), April 01, 1999.


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