Enough,already,Andy? Please?

Yes, most of us here wish we hadn't gotten involved.Yes, most of us do not want to see any of our troops go in. Yes, you're entitled to your opinions.

BUT, this is turning into the Kosovo Propaganda Board. Even tho I may agree with some of your points,I don't believe they belong on this board, at least not to the extent they've been posted over and over.There are many other boards to discus politics where they do belong, post them there. Thanks.

-- sue (deco100@aol.com), April 19, 1999

Answers

Thanks Sue. My thoughts -- and many other people's -- exactly !

I guess some coffins just take a lot more nails than others.

-- Yan (no@no.no), April 19, 1999.

Thank you Sue,

A little more civil than my erstwhile friend Meerkat. Yep it's a pain in the ass what is going on - talk of the draft, reserves being called up, talk on this forum for a long time about mock invasions in Monterrey and Texas, talk of a 200,000 strong invasion task force, talk of nukes on the forum.

So what does all this have to do with y2k - superficially not a lot, other than the possibility of other disputes breaking out elsewhere in the world other than Yugoslavia, thereby stretching the depleted military to perhaps a position of impotence, and what of y2k itself if it hits hard with the majority of those who would have been deployed in the USA off on foreign soil. You believe this has nothing to do with y2k? So what has been talked about on the forum by many people over all these months is off topic and not relevant? Dig a little deeper and you'll find that the y2k card is VERY relevant in this context. The threads are out there if you are interested.

I disagree with you and Meerkat on this point. So can you. Just walk on digitally by. Ignore this topic if you believe it's not relevant. Many believe it IS relevant as I'm getting a lot of private correspondence attesting to this.

Are we going to have censorship on this forum?

Is that what it's coming to?

Where do we draw the line?

Look at recent posts - Joke lists circulating (two or three) - Circuses (two Yourdon ones) - Rats - One Act Plays... Plenty more where these came from...

You get my drift.

Are these y2k related? - I say yes! Why the hell not? The forum is constantly eveolving.

What happens if a suitcase nuke goes off in Des Moines - will this be talked about on the forum? you betcha. Will it be y2k relevant - again - you betcha. Why? Apart from the obvious, to see how the agencies cope, FEMA, the military, water, power - the whole gamut.

y2k encompasses ALL facets of modern life - you and Meerkat would wish to compartmentalise it to fit your preconceived notions.

That's a little arrogant don't you think?

Let's just agree to differ Sue.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), April 19, 1999.

But, Andy, so many of your Yugo postings simply do not have even a hint of a Y2k connection -- no attampt at all to demonstrate a connection.

-- No Spam Please (No_Spam_Please@anon_ymous.com), April 19, 1999.

As for the Censorship straw-man argument you keep raising: Will you acknowledge that you've been informed on multiple occasions that there is at least one other Greenspun forum where your topics would be on-topic? Moving them there would satisfy me. I don't suggest that your postings be suppressed -- I just want them posted where they belong.

Sorta like driving on the proper side of a street - here it's on the right, in London it's on the left, and all the other drivers in both places at least get annoyed and have the flow disrupted if you don't follow the prevailing direction.

-- No Spam Please (No_Spam_Please@anon_ymous.com), April 19, 1999.

NATO preparing to invade Yugoslavia with 200,000 troops... (8 new answers, last on April 19, 1999)

The NON-JEWS Behind Kosovo (9 new answers, last on April 19, 1999)

Enough With The Yugo? (3 new answers, last on April 19, 1999)

The RAMBOUILLET Agreement - Kosovo - NATO - Trepca - Gold Silver Coal Lead Zinc & Cadmium Mines (5 new answers, last on April 19, 1999)

More about Y2K, PLEASE!

-- (Y2K@GI.am), April 19, 1999.

Arrogant? Thanks, never been called that before!

Sue: In favor of short posts and even less windy replies.

-- sue (deco100@aol.com), April 19, 1999.

You asked - you got :)

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), April 19, 1999.

Thanx! :-D

-- sue (deco100@aol.com), April 19, 1999.

I think articles that showcase your government actions/inactions have everything to do with Y2K.

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), April 19, 1999.

OK :)

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), April 19, 1999.

As for the number of answers to the posts listed above, I'd guess at least half of them are the same people using different names.

Is there anyone on this forum who doesn't know we've got problems in Yugoslavia and that Clinton isn't the finest president we've ever had?

Yes, we've got the message--over and over and over and over and. . . .

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), April 19, 1999.

In a situation where there seems to be a legitimate difference of opinion on relevance (I do find them relevant), why can't folks just NOT browse the threads in question? It is usually 95% clear when Andy posts something what it has to do with and, obviously, who posted it?

I have no interest in the circus threads and just pass them by, but I have no objection to them being on the forum ......

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), April 19, 1999.

Big Dog, perhaps it also bothers people that Andy posts so much denigrating the United States and its people. Yes, this country is not perfect, No, Clinton is far from the finest president this country's had, Yes, Kosovo is a mistake--but Andy goes on and on and on. It's analogous to Chinese water torture. I think lots of us are getting the impression that Andy is more interested in running down American and Americans than he is in the problems directly associated with Y2k. In addition, those posting on the very few Circus and very few other humorous threads also post on other threads useful and practical information we can all use. Although Andy has finally, on this forum at least, refrained from openly advocating those who believe in flying saucers, crystals and channeling, he has for some time posted nothing but political theories, and most of them from suspect fringe sites. I give as a good example the 19-Nato-soldiers-dead story, which came from a Greek tabloid supplied with information by Macedonian customs.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), April 19, 1999.

Old Git --- I don't have the perception that Andy is down on U.S. or its people. His main thing seems to be his conviction that a REAL NWO conspiracy is going on, quite related to Y2K. From what I can tell, Hardliner, E Coli, Nikoli, INVAR, heck, Leska, and a fair number of other past/current posters are convinced of this while some who are pretty hard-nosed (Arlin, others) are not and still others (me, Diane?) aren't sure.

I do agree we've had a heck of a lot of these posts lately and I certainly see that the point-of-vew can appear variously loony and/or infuriating (gilda seems to be going over-the-top in reaction, for instance). But, again, can't the threads simply be ignored?

BTW, looks like I'll be in Raleigh Monday night next and early Tuesday morning. Would LOVE to have some of that British tea (hey, maybe meet Puddintame too?)

And I promise: nothing about whatever-that-place-is-somewhere-in-Europe ......

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), April 19, 1999.

With regard to Andy being down on Americans, I'm referring to the fact that he thinks it's necessary to regurgitate this stuff on a daily, sometimes hourly basis, as if Americans don't have the capacity to understand the first, second or fifth time. As for a conspiracy, hell I don't know myself. However, the shrill way it's being presented is pushing me (and others, I'm sure) into the "not possible" corner.

Sweetie, the Yank, is the tea-drinker around here. Can't stand the stuff meself, never could! But I make a mean cup of freshly-ground Colombian. If we have no prospects coming to look at the house (sorry, priorities!), be happy to meet up with y'all somewhere. Maybe half-way. What about the Holiday Inn coffee shop near RTP, Puddintame? They do have good coffee! Alternatively, I could get Sweetie to bring me in on Tuesday morning and he could maybe take the afternoon off. We'll see how it plays.

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), April 19, 1999.

Personally, I think it may be that it sometimes appears that Andy is sorta hogging the forum with all of the yugo stuff. Perhaps a digest each day, rather than play-by-play would be the way to go...

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), April 19, 1999.

Digest might be a good idea. Andy, what do you think?

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), April 19, 1999.

I can understand the frustration about seeing apparently OT Kosovo posts. However Y2k is so global/political/technical/social/psychological that I have yet to find anything that is truly OT. Its not like this is a forum for discussing chicken farming that has suddenly been invaded with posts about fixing motorcycles.

IMHO Kosovo is PART of Y2k.

Ok you're the president. You know about Y2k. You know that you are going to need a massive standing army to keep some order. At least enough to keep key places protected. Lets say (just for the sake of optimism) that you want these troops to actually protect civilians from looters and deranged drug addicts. How do you get them (troops) without giving enough info to the public to cause a run on the banks?

Simple answer. Start a war!!! An impossible petty war!!! I have been expecting the re-institution of the draft ever since I understood Y2k. I just didn't know how it was going to come down. Am I happy about this? NO!!!!! This is a travesty. This is about mining rights (HUGE gold mine in Kosovo), potential martial law, and using up arsenols before the roll-over. It is All about Y2k.

-- R (riversoma@aol.com), April 19, 1999.

Old Git,

I'm not denigrating the USA, I'm attacking the leadership, in the hands of the elite globalists. Big difference. The same goes for Britain - Tony Blair is a disgrace, perhaps I've not made myself clear. If I hated the USA that much I wouldn't be living here. The people in both countries have been sold down the river.

As I said on another thread though, Americans have a reputation of being very insular, of not knowing or taking an interest in what's going on around the world.

The reaction I'm getting tends to support this preconception - I was hoping the forum would be a little more receptive. It's the Amricans running the show over there - a lot is at stake.

later,

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), April 19, 1999.

BigDog,

Digest is fine by me, or anyone who cares to post. I just happened to be up all night and people were sending me links to post.

Eventually the penny will drop BD for the likes of Meerkat - probably about the same time the herd starts to snort and stampede.

Later,

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), April 19, 1999.

Wow, BigDog, what made you think I even think about NWO ?????

You wrote: "From what I can tell, Hardliner, E Coli, Nikoli, INVAR, heck, Leska, and a fair number of other past/current posters are convinced of this while some who are pretty hard-nosed (Arlin, others) are not and still others (me, Diane?) aren't sure."

I have never even thought about or typed "NWO" that I can remember!
And, I don't think about conspiracies. I *do* notice that there are not enough people to staff an effective martial law, and that martial law plans have been drawn up to "deal with Y2K," so sometimes I do ponder just how the noncompliant military and noncompliant government plan to carry out their emerging plans.

The only thing I am convinced of, is that ppl are astonishingly more stoooopid than I ever realized, and ppl have become trouble, in general, and that civility has devolved. Very sad.

Mainly what I notice is lapses of logic, of which there are many in regard to Y2K. Also, when Russia loudly announces that they plan to nuke the US "accidentally" with Y2K as their oopsie cover, unless we stay away from Yugoslavia, then I do notice when we go ahead and bomb Yugoslavia and Russia promptly announces they will not cooperate with the US on Y2K fixes. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where *that* will lead.

My thinking is much more simple than you presume, BigDog. My concerns are directed very much to the impacts on the "activities of daily living" during Year2000 and beyond. The changes upcoming. Nurse-thinking!

Come January, it will be tough in the freezing rain to have to trudge to the latrine trench and also have to worry about radiation and fallout during the dash. The pits!

xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 19, 1999.

My apologies, Leska.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), April 19, 1999.

Of course we can skip them. I skip a lot of posts. The point is that we do not want to skip them or we would have. We want to know what's new and what his opinion is, we just don't want to spend all day doing it. What I was asking for was not censorship or ignoring the topic just a little less verbosity. Andy, are you a lawyer by any chance? Lawyers never say in a paragraph what they can make a book out of.

-- sue (deco100@aol.com), April 19, 1999.

Up until recently I've been skeptical of NWO claims. I've been wary since the days many claimed George Bush was selling us out to the NWO.

Clinton has far outdone that speculation to the nth degree.

I've never accepted the NWO "conspiracies", although I've always believed a European Superpower would one day claim ownership of the Western Hemisphere under a religious/Socialist umbrella that the U.S. and Britain would not be a part of...but enslaved to.

Now I'm seeing a much larger plot being weaved by Euro-Socialists and the banking Elites. My speculations of the past are being realized by the Andy's posts. They make sense.

How is this related to Y2K?

The geopolitical field now playing out across the globe as you read this, is the canvas that Y2K and all its portents will be painted on.

Thanks Andy.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), April 19, 1999.

Darn it I hate to contribute to the Yugo stuff which usually gives me a headache as it is, let alone hearing people sling epithets at each other which is all it evolves to in this forum. This thread, having more BigDog, Old Git and Arlin, seems slightly more sane. I have a small question which may be a legitimate relationship of Y2K to Yugo. My friend whom I affectionately call "the gun lord" tells me that my understanding of military reservists is incomplete. He says the 'reserves' , except one small segment, are now PART OF the National Guard. He said he has friends who are NG who are going to Kosovo. I said, but that can't be, NG is for each state, they're like the land-guard (vs. coast-guard), I'm sure the fellows going are actually ARMY (or whatever), not NG. He says nowadays, the NG are *federal* troops and are considered part of the reserves and are sent overseas, no problem. He said there have been times when a state wanted the reserves or wanted to keep them home and the feds said no and shipped them out -- meaning they really are Fed-owned and not State- owned, which was my understanding. (Not that state sovereignity means anything to anybody anymore but me and my ideals I guess. Of course I know admitting that I support the constitution is like wearing a sign that says, "Dear FBI: I'm a gun- hoarding wacko. Come shoot me or my kid. Signed, PJ.") Since one of the primary concerns of many people come Y2K is social response -- and this regardless of whether it's a disaster or merely a problem, this could happen -- and the National Guard is what one expects would
(a) be on duty to help keep order,
(b) be available to help, as they do in many disasters, provide food, water, emergency shelter, first aid, etc.; and
(c) they're "our boys," so despite what realism may tell us, we feel that Oklahoma boys aren't going to shoot Oklahoma farmers without really having a DARN good reason. But if NGs are now part of the federal reserves, and indeed are being (or will be) shipped to Kosovo (or other places), then it's a legitimate Y2K concern: who is going to be here to help us, to defend us from each other -- or defend us from others on our own ground if necessary. (There are many foreign troops on American soil now -- anybody thinking about this would shudder to consider foreign troops being the ones assigned to the country to "keep/restore order." They surely would hesitate far less before shooting an American.) When you consider the legitimately credentialed soldiers (generals, admirals, and so on) who have talked about this topic for the last few years (topic being our defense), and you look at the cuts in defense spending while increasing defense involvement and output, and some sources say many weapons/ammo being used is not being replaced -- well gee. I think, "So we are not very prepared to go to war in more than one place, we don't have the money or the men or the equipment. But we've spread all military around the planet and are planning to put tons more out there. And we are or likely will be taking some of the home-guard away from home and sending them away, too. And we're coming up on a worldwide crisis that could involve accidental war on its own merits, or not-so-accidental war on other merits (China's toast, China's got bazillions of people, China wants food and hates us anyway, will China be willing to threaten us merely to get food? We think our neighbors will shoot us but not an enemy? What kind of polly-hope is that?!). And the push for gun restriction the last few years has been almost frenzied. And then I read some of the executive orders that have been signed by Bill Clinton in the last few years. Some of these issues went before the house and were stomped out at the speed of light. No problem, he just writes an executive order for it, as if he's the dictator and who asked the elected representatives their opinion anyway. And I put all this together and begin to understand why people like Andy are just ranting. It makes me feel like ranting too, except I'm too confused. If Clinton were my commander I'd think he'd sold out to the other side. Speaking of which he apparently did, and now we're sitting ducks for the Chinese, and according to two major admirals with credentials coming out their nose, we have NO ballistic missile defense system (I always thought we did). Meanwhile China is everywhere, fronting businesses that are buying up former US Military bases around the world and are first-option holders for the Panama Canal as of 1/1/2000. I consider Y2K, at this point, an issue that is bigger than mere computers. The smallest glitch related to the computer issue could land us a few nukes on the West Coast. Sending our National Guard, who we'd hope would help feed or protect us during a Y2K crisis, off to some other country is definitely related to Y2K as well. Clarification about the NG (see above) would be nice, if anybody knows. PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 19, 1999.

I don't know why all my paragraph line separations vanished. Sorry.

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 19, 1999.

But we've spread all military around

That should have been "our" not "all."

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 19, 1999.

PJ,

You put in three <BR>s.

Once this forum's posting software sees even a single HTML command (or something it even _thinks_ is an HTML command, like "<sigh>"), all other formatting goes out the window for the whole posting.

-- No Spam Please (No_Spam_Please@anon_ymous.com), April 19, 1999.

One of the things that is useful about the forum is that it does tend to self-police, no? I think PJ's post illustrates eloquently the need to keep Kosovo on the burner in our threads (and, actually Sue put it well, it's how/when/how long the stuff, not whether). Where is No Spam? Anyway, it's gonna happen, like it or not, right Your-done-for-ites? "Digest-ing" daily by our Kosovo cyber-correspondent (alias Andy) might indeed be cool, though.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), April 19, 1999.

PJ, you just summarized what w'all've been conjecturing for months! "Federalizing" the NG, etc. Under "Military" in the archives.
I think most of us are starting to notice, as Y2K looms nearer, that we're getting nervous about new complicated overseas engagements and *anything* that takes our homegrown boys away from our local areas. Either TPTB are Mega-DGI DoomCoughs OR something very evil + wicked this way comes.

This is not a conspiracy theory but a basic gut observation.

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 19, 1999.

Yes Leska, I share your sentiments. Amen.

"By the pricking of my thumb...something wicked this way comes."

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), April 19, 1999.

Quitcha bellyachin sue. Plenty of other posts are long-winded. Just skim them if you don't like them. I get a lot out of Andy's posts. Kosovo is important to all of us - y2k or not! He's pretty darn polite too. Go, Andy!

-- grace (gracep4@juno.com), April 19, 1999.

I would like to see MORE Andy posts. The relevance of Kosovo to Y2k has long been established, and it is re-established every time someone demands it be banished from the forum. If you don't like Andy's posts, click through when you see his name. Period. If you don't think Kosovo has anything to do with Y2k, that's your view. Challenge Andy's view with your own, but don't tell him he needs to censor, or even edit, himself. "Hogging the forum" my eye... "Nail in the coffin??!!" Arrogance is the word, exactly. Get over yourself, and click through.

Dano

-- Dano (bookem@blacksand.srf), April 19, 1999.

~sigh~~P.J. you are my kind of guy. You just condensed down 22 threads very clearly and succinctly and you really got the picture in toto. Scary, isn't it? (The picture, I mean, not your writing ability.)

-- sue (deco100@aol.com), April 19, 1999.

This Kosovo thing is sooo related to Y2K as in the big spin. Watch the talking heads on the tube. What is true and what isn't true, even the talking heads cann't tell any more. The spin will get worse, with Y2K and Kosovo,and only a few of us will know it is spin. Following Kosovo is like following the money, and we know what happens when you follow the money. Is Slick Willy in over his head on this one or is it all part of a "master plan". We live in exciting times.

-- thinkIcan (thinkIcan@make.it), April 19, 1999.

Thanks Sue. Integration's part of my personality. But I'm a girl, not a guy. :-) A 33 year old mommy no less. I know, the name and the writing style throws people off....

PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 19, 1999.

BigDog,

Really just don't know about the NWO order stuff ... and frankly, it's not a particular area of interest.

I AM quite curious about all the related military, FEMA, Presidential, National Guard, terrorism, Emergency Response Managers, State government, etc. and et. al. connections and how they're relating to Y2K ... and beyond.

I'd far rather see emphasis in all those groups on honestly preparing the public for the Y2K unknowns and encouraging rather than discouraging community preparedness. But ... that's NOT what we're seeing.

*Sigh*

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), April 19, 1999.

~sigh~ should have known or remembered you were a gal. Maybe you need to start a new thread about this NG subject. It kinda got lost at the end of this one and never was addressed completely if at all. I don't understand calling them up for foreign duty either and didn't think they were even sufficiently trained.

-- sue (deco100@aol.com), April 20, 1999.

No Sue I'm not a lawyer :) Currently working in Colorado on y2k- related contract. God help them :)

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), April 21, 1999.

just spotted an extremely rusty example, even worse than the Fiats they were based on

wonder if they've bombed the factory

-- dick of the dale (rdale@coynet.com), April 21, 1999.

Up on UPI, US will back ground troops, and few than 70 cruise missiles left. Just not a secure feeling.

Fewer than 70 cruise missiles left

Madness all around. Too weird. But still meet nice, normal, good ppl. Maybe it's just the farther up the "authority" ladder, the father removed from decency?

There's another thread going today where K admits Russia's nuclear plants are a problem. Still don't think the .gov actually has a clue, but think ppl are starting to sense an unravelling, vague at the fraying edges, but gathering momentum.

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 21, 1999.

Leska: there are over 2000 sea launched cruise missiles in inventory, the shortage is of ALCM.

-- a (a@a.a), April 21, 1999.