Shooting reported at high school in Littleton, Colorado
2 gunmen have just shot at least 8 students.
Sometimes I feel that when characterizing our world as a civilization, we have been extremely generous.

-- WebRNot (wbernot@ncap13k.com), April 20, 1999

Answers

The sad part of it is: copycat crimes. Look for another incident within two months in a different part of the country. That is: if the shooters are students. Sad, Sad. Off topic, but sad.

-- FM (vidprof@aol.com), April 20, 1999.

And some say we'll pull together as a people to weather Y2K disruptions....

....Yeah...Right.

Worse than sad, it's pathetic.

Look for further gun restrictions for the rest of us law abiding citizens.

Then the law abiding will be equally defenseless against those that seek evil like the numnuts at that school.

But that's another issue.

I hope S.W.A.T. takes them out. Deadly force should be met with deadly force.

Maybe that will deter the copycats.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), April 20, 1999.

From CNN

Gunmen open fire at Colorado school; some students trapped

April 20, 1999 Web posted at: 3:09 p.m. EDT (1909 GMT)

LITTLETON, Colorado (CNN) -- At least two gunmen, described as wearing black trench coats and masks, opened fire and tossed an explosive device Tuesday at Columbine High School, wounding at least 10 people.

A police spokeswoman said that "numerous students" were trapped in the school cafeteria and other locations in the school.

Authorities said the two shooters were holed up in the school. SWAT teams had surrounded the facility.

Police said that there were still students trapped inside the two-story building.

At the rear of the school, eight students were being treated by medical personnel. At least one student was seen being put in an ambulance in front of the school.

Three people, all with gunshot wounds, were taken to Swedish Medical Center. A spokeswoman said one of the women had nine gunshot wounds to the chest but remained conscious. Another woman had a gunshot wound to the chest and a male student was shot in the back.

Two students, a boy and a girl, were admitted to Denver Health Medical Center. One was said to be in critical condition, the other in fair condition.

Dozens of ambulances could be seen near the sprawling facility and campus.

A large number of police officers wearing helmets and body armor and carrying high-powered weapons gathered in a staging area near the building.

A student, Braden Pasusich, said he saw two students in black trench coats with weapons. Other students said the weapons included shotguns, automatic weapons and pipe bombs.

"They were just shooting. They didn't care who they shot at. They just kept shooting. Then they threw a grenade," said another student named Janine who talked to a Denver television station.

A student who identified himself as Bob said that the two, who he said were wearing black masks, were holed up in the school.

Jonathon Ladd, a student at the school, said he heard a loud noise like an explosion and then gunshots.

He said the shots were coming from the back of the school toward the school office.

"There was one shot after another," said Ladd, who said he fled the school.

The school has an enrollment of 1,870, according to the school's Web site.

The incident began shortly after 11:15 a.m. MDT (1:15 a.m. EDT).

Littleton, population 35,000, is located southwest of downtown Denver.

-- Roland (nottellint@nowhere.com), April 20, 1999.

What is wrong with us?

CHARACTER DOES MATTER!!!

It DOES matter if BJ Clinton gets a blow-job in the Oval Office!

It DOES matter if the public schools spend so much time teaching diversity, multiculturalism and feel-good studies that there is no time left for the 3 Rs!

It DOES matter when criminals get off by using the "insanitity" defense!

-- Anonymous99 (Anonymous99@Anonymous99.xxx), April 20, 1999.

Been over two hours, students still getting shot in there, bleeding to death, and NOT ONE person has gone in there to rescue the injured!
And look how all those uniformed ppl are talking talking talking on all their non-compliant communication gear! Why doesn't somebody in full bullet-proof armor go in there with a gurney and bring the injured out so they can be saved? !!!! If I were a parent there I would be infuriated that NOTHING has been done to help those kids!

Two or three loony schoolkids with guns throw the whole town in turmoil and all those law enforcement agencies can do NOTHING with their infrastructure UP!

And they wonder WHY we're worried about Y2K mayhem! CLUELESS !!!!!!!!! xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 20, 1999.

Leska, I understand your response. However, ther eis NO SUCH THING as FULL BULLETPROOF ARMOR. We have vests that cover most of the vital parts of the torso, we have helmets that cover most of the head, but if the miscreants decide to actually AIM (always assumingthey are not running under Hollywood Rules) then the officer is dead from a face shot, or from a high leg shot (just inside the femur, as you remember, is the artery which,if opened right, kills in about 43 seconds), or a high arm shot (mean time to death from hypovolemia 80+/- sec's). the neck is also vulnerable.

i wish it were otherwise!!!!

Chuck

Who, not being a parent, but being a paramedic, would STILL volunteer to go in, but only after having talked to his wife, first.

-- chuck, a Night Driver (rienzoo@en.com), April 20, 1999.

No full-body armor? Why not? Somebody had better invent that in the next 7 months.

Have been watching coverage on CNN. Did anybody else hear the INCREDIBLE quote of the student that the gunmen were "Making a prediction about the Year 2000, that everything was going to fall apart, and they wanted their revenge before it happened." ??????
I could not believe my ears! Did anybody else hear that, and did you think, "Oh no, the news is going to go crazy talking about "Y2K dangerous lunatics."

The whole thing is awful. Chuck, thanks for the info. The .gov .mil needs a Darth Vader armor-suit-up option so they can GO IN safely and extricate the wounded.

Those injured kids in that school must be feeling abandoned ...

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 20, 1999.

Chuck, I know you would, buddy. I think I'd be right behind you, but I honestly don't know.

I'm watching this unfold on T.V. and I can appreciate Leska's frustration. It's been hours and it took quite sometime before the Police even tried to move in. I'm sitting here feeling much the way I did when the bomb blew in Oklahoma. Sad, depressed, fearful, angry, worried, heart broken. This has been a wake up call for me because it shows how movies we see are not at all realistic.

Invar, actually, you're wrong regarding how people have reacted. Students put their own lives on the line to help carry their classmates out. It was surreal, like a war movie, but these are our kids doing this. Students, locked inside classrooms, called on cell phones to give information to the media and police.

Unfortunately, I think we should expect a very high number of casualties from this rampage.

It's quickening. We haven't even reached the middle of the year yet and the quickening seems to be gaining momentum.

Mike ========================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), April 20, 1999.

Now they're saying some of the SWAT teams have been able to look in some windows and they see bodies on the floor.

Being in nursing & CERT & NET teams, we know you HAVE TO GO IN RIGHT AWAY and TREAT FOR SHOCK.

You know they're not going to help us when the lights go out and all the opportunist cranks are out on destructive rampages and the .gov .mil can't even communicate. We know, yesterday we found out our worst fears are coming to pass. The government is CLUELESS and not willing to listen, think, learn. Y2K is going to devastate this land, because PEOPLE REFUSE TO THINK AHEAD.

xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 20, 1999.

Oh no, Leska... they linked it to Y2K? No No No No No.........

-- Lisa (oh@no.no), April 20, 1999.

Michael,

Wrong about how they reacted???

I was talking about the shitheads that pulled the trigger!

If they're going to do this when the tree is green, what will they do to you when it is dry?

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), April 20, 1999.

April 20 = Hitler's birthday.

Things always get gruesome somewhere when that date rolls around.

-- just (a@little.reminder), April 20, 1999.

LESKA,

Did I read that right?? They BLAMED IT ON Y2K????

If that's true folks......whoa, look for a nationwide witch hunt for anyone that thinks Y2K is a problem.

We've been saying for a bit now, that targets are being painted on us daily.

I wouldn't doubt it with this guy in the WH, but I said in '96 I wouldn't put it past this prez to blow up a school bus full of kids if it meant an acceleration of whatever policy he deemed required to destroy his opposition. I know that sounds unrelated to this tragedy but hey, I wonder....especially if Y2K was thrown out as a motive.

I guess I'll make my mind up when and if they catch the gunmen.

Too true on the ability of beauracracy to rescue those in need Leska. This is ONE location...imagine if this was widespread.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), April 20, 1999.

Invar, my apologies. I misunderstood. I agree with you regarding the idiots who would do something like this. My heart is literally being torn watching this unfold.

I'd always expected things like this to occur this year. Millennial madness, etc. I didn't expect it to happen this soon but this may be the start of a really bad nightmare.

Mike ===============================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), April 20, 1999.

If you can't believe that some kids are being put into the mood to pull something like this over Y2K, I suggest you listen to the new little ditty from a group in Australia called "Anthem For The Year 2000". Talk about a depressing sound, much less whatever topic the lyrics contain.

I guess these kids might tie their rampage to the Internet, too. Probably looked up the lyrics, some band interviews and some super- gloomer Y2K site and came up with this gem of a plan.

No matter how it turns out, I agree that the forthcoming spin does not bode well for those of us legitimately trying to prepare for next year. And it's especially bad for gun owners GI or DGI, 'cause it seems that the anti-gunners have press releases pre-printed and ready to go except for the "insert school name and town here" fields.

WW WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), April 20, 1999.

Invar, it was a student, a boy, talking to reporters, saying that before it happened the "Trench Coat Mafia" talked about Year 2000 and made predictions and that their actions were related. He was interrupted, and I haven't heard anything else. I don't have cable but the office does, but I'm too busy today to stay watching all the time. Very instructive watching and seeing with Y2K eyes just how much is being coordinated thru communication equipment, and still chaos. Kids coming out OK in batches, fortunately.

xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 20, 1999.

Leska,

Just saw tape from 45 minutes ago of about 30-50 students run out of the school carrying the corpse of one of their classmates.

WHAT THE HELL IS SWAT WAITING FOR???????

Orders from Reno????

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), April 20, 1999.

This from KUSA-TV (Denver) website: Shortly after 11am (MST) two people came into the school carrying shotguns, grenades and pipe bombs. The two weredescribed as wearing all black clothing and masks. Several of the students in the cafeteria heard a blast when someone came running in yelling "get down." Shortly thereafter the gunmen came into the cafeteria and started shooting. Many of thestudents were able to get out and run to other parts of the school. The latest information is that approximately 20 people have been transported to area hospitals. The injured are at Swedish Medical Center, Denver Health Medical Center, Littleton Porter Hospital, St. Anthony Central and Lutheran Hospital. The injuries range from good condition to critical condition,and so far there have been no reports of fatalities. It is thought that several other injured people are still in the school.

Police and SWAT teams from numerous metro area police departments are involved in the Columbine High School shootings. In the past hour police freed nearly 40 students from the school. There's no word where in the school the students had been hiding or how many more may still be inside. The suspects are still believed to be holding hostages inside the school.

A number of students who did get out earlier have been taken to other schools in the district for safe keeping. Parents trying to locate their children should call 303-982-6836 for information as to their kids' whereabouts. Parents can also go to Leawood Elementary and the Columbine Public Library for the same information. Those schools involved in the lock down are:

Goodland Elementary Littleton Charter School Chatfield Elementary Leawood Elementary Bear Creek High School Dutch Creek Elementary Ken Caryl Jr. High School Normandy Elementary Columbine Heights Dakota Ridge

Jefferson County Public Schools tells 9News that parents with children at the locked down schools may pick them up, but should be prepared to show a photo ID. School busses are running their normal routes with the exception of Leawood Elementary and Columbine HS which are still under a lock down until further notice.

Earlier this afternoon police arrested 3 young men who police say are friends of the suspects. No word yet if the three were involved in the shootings in any way. The three were all dressed in camouflage pants, black shirts and black jackets with some kind of emblem on the jacket.

Stay tuned to 9NEWS for continuous coverage of this on-going, developing story.

-- Bruce Welker (bdw@ngdc.noaa.gov), April 20, 1999.

I watched the whole thing unfold too on CNN....and am still amazed that the over 100 swat team members can't go in and protect themselves while retrieving the dying students strewn about the school rooms and hallways. Then the phone call from the boy who was hiding in an upstairs room under a desk...he had a cell phone and the CNN newscaster told him to go ahead and call 911 so he could tell the cops where he was, etc. There were many other kids in that room too apparently and they could literally hear the gunmen very nearby. So the guy calls back a while later to CNN and says he can't get through on 911....can u believe it? Too many moms and dads using 911 to call to see if their kid was accounted for...and this is when 911 is in perfect shape! The kids who were the trenchcoat mafia were said to be "gothics". One student said there were about 8 or 10 of them at the school and that they always wear black clothing. They extol violence and death as a "way of life" said one student and they were apparently targeting the minorities and anyone who loved sports and even yelled out as they shot in the library that it was for revenge. One girl who was under a table in the library watched point blank as her girlfriend took a bullet in the head...she said it was just "awful". These kids are very alienated from their peers and are acting as if they have no hope. Sounds like a religious problem to me.

-- gotitlongago@garynorth. (vacajohn@(nospam)jccomp.com), April 20, 1999.

So now all of the extreme doom and gloom is getting to teenagers who are by their nature confused anyway, and a Governer is bringing in boy scouts and girlscouts. A good way to cause lifelong emotional problems for these kids.

Children should not be asked to do the job adults should handle.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), April 20, 1999.

KUSA report is at: www.9news.com/newsroom/b.htm for those that want to track it.

Bruce

-- Bruce Welker (bdw@ngdc.noaa.gov), April 20, 1999.

End of Story ??

-- WebRNot (webrnot@ncap13k.com), April 20, 1999.

The reason SWAT can't go in yet is they are reporting bombs placed throughout the building.

-TECH32-

-- TECH32 (TECH32@NOMAIL.COM), April 20, 1999.

They were a "doomsday cult" ???

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 20, 1999.

Bombs or no bombs that is what SWAT gets paid for! When you put on a uniform, taking fire is something you come to expect at somepoint.

-- (snowleopard6@webtv.net), April 20, 1999.

Breaking News - Deaths At Colorado High School

xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 20, 1999.

Check out Drudge.

www.drudgereport.com

Unbelievable!

-- Villain (villain@thedoghousemail.com), April 20, 1999.

As I switch to Discovery channel during a commercial break while watching the carnage, I see a show about fancy firearms with silencers. The writing has been on the wall for some time, people.

INVAR, shame on you for trying to link this tradgedy to a plot by Clinton. You are one sick son of a bitch.

-- a (a@a.a), April 20, 1999.

from the Drudge report:

XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX 04/20/99 16:22:55 ET XXXXX

TRENCHCOAT MAFIA PLACED WARNING OF COMING SCHOOL MASSACRE ON AOL; GANG MAY HAVE PLANNED SHOOTING

**Exclusive**

A gang called TRENCHCOAT MAFIA may have been planning today's shooting at a suburban high school in Colorado.

One user profile found on AMERICA ONLINE states: "Preparin' for the big april 20!! You'll all be sorry that day!"

The AOL handle "LCaress" -- claiming to be a "Trenchcoat Mafia" gang member from Littleton, Colorado -- warns of the April 20 date.

Another AOL member, using the handle "AzMstr17" warns about a fight against the "Power Boyz" -- and declares that "cOlUmBInE HigH ScHoOl SuCks".

Member Name: Jessie Location: 7th layer of hell NeAr DeNver Yo' Birthdate: August 13, 1982 Sex: Male Marital Status: ToSsInG My bItCh QuEeN's SalAd Hobbies: hAnGinG PoPpErs ExTaSSeeY BoYYee Ya Ya FloCkO SEaGuLLs Yo yO Computers: RhYdIn RUlZ ThE LAnD UnDer hiS BlA C K BooTz Occupation: TRENCH COAT MAFIA iN Da HoUse BoYeEeeeEeeEEEEEEsss, hAnGiN, baNgInn, fStiNg, ToSSin Da' SAlAd Yo yO Personal Quote: "fIgHt Da PoWeR BoYz.. tReNcH CoAt MaFiA RULZ!!!! cOlUmBInE HigH ScHoOl SuCks

One 10th-grader at the school says that he heard gunmen say "they were gonna kill all the jocks," seconds before one of them held a gun to his head. A student identifying himself as Aaron Cahon told KOA radio that he believes the gunmen belong to a group in the school known as the "Trenchcoat Mafia."

A notice posted on the Internet on Tuesday read:

"Greetings Gay Bikers,

Today, a bunch of our fellow homosexuals at Columbine HS in Denver Colorado, known as the Trench Coat Mafia, decided that they had taken enough crap from the straight community that had been abusing them and have decided to take matters into their own hands. We should all applaud their bravery and hope that they can hold out as long as possible in their fight for gay people everywhere. We can only hope that they can turn this into the gay alamo and hold out for 13 days of glory. If they can hold out for two days I think gay bikers everywhere should considering riding into Denver as a relief force to fight alongside them.

We need to show solidarity!!!

Queen Jeff"

[ The message is found at: http://x16.dejanews.com/[ST_rn=qs]/getdoc.xp?AN=468757180&CONTEXT=9246 46229.364052583&hitnum=0 ]

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), April 20, 1999.

i really don't believe these kids were motivated by y2k. from the comments of other students, the trenchcoat mafia were sickos for a long time now, and were ripe to lose it, no particular excuse was necessary.

-- jocelyne slough (jonslough@tln.net), April 20, 1999.

--a,

I didn't say the prez DID have ties.... I said "hey...I wondered".

Give me good one reason why I shouldn't WONDER about tragedy's like this one having ties to your king?

He's got a pretty good legacy of death and destruction about him.

Can you say Waco, Afghanistan, Baghdad and Kosovo?

But no, for the record it appears that these were some CRAZED WACKOS bent on killing - and not tied to the king--er Clinton.

Until he uses this tragedy as a platform for political purposes.

Which you know he will.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), April 20, 1999.

Some of you know that I work as a "stringer" for a local newspaper and a Raleigh TV station, reporting on the police beat, hence I can answer some questions about SWAT.

Police budgets being what they are, very few cities can afford to have a SWAT team on stand-by. In fact, I don't know any that can--maybe LA. Members of SWAT are regular police officers who work regular shifts. When a stand-off or hostage situation or the like arises those officers may be on duty on the other side of town, training as a group at a special place miles away, sleeping so they can work that night, on a day off at home 50 miles away, or shopping at a mall in another city.

Special SWAT clothing and equipment, in this city anyway, is kept in lockers at police HQ; it's not kept at home or in personal vehicles for obvious reasons. In the case of a small rural town in Colorado, SWAT team members could be fishing in the mountains, shopping in Denver, whatever. It takes time to get all essential members of the team together and brief them. There is usually no more than one sharpshooter to a team. I understand four separate SWAT teams were assembled at Columbine; I suspect at least two of those teams, if not three, were called in from Denver or other municipalities. TV reports said it was two hours before SWAT teams went in. I consider that quite fast, considering teams were apparently called in from some distance.

Plans of the building (if it's large and complicated like Columbine school) or at least accurate sketches from a knowledgeable person, are necessary before SWAT members can go in. This is Standard Operating Procedure gleaned from hundreds of hours of experience and training. You have to remember that the shooters knew the layout intimately, SWAT members probably have never been inside, particularly those not drawn from the local community.

Standard OP is also to remove all mobile victims from the area, no matter what, for at least three reasons. One, their chances of survival are improved if they're taken to a place of safety (they can do little to help their fallen friends); two (particularly in this situation) SWAT doesn't know who's friend and who's foe--the shooters could be pretending to aid victims; and three, the kids could have been used as hostages.

In situations such as the Columbine shootings, the shooters usually do not commit suicide and negotiations may be necessary. They often take hostages and such was reported at one point. Again, SOP dictates removing to a place of safety all non-SWAT persons from the scene. Additionally, when SWAT team members recognized explosive devices (booby traps) they withdrew and called in the Bomb Squad. Some cross-training may go on but, again, SOP is to let the experts handle those elements in the field of their expertise. A police spokesperson said the Bomb Squad has found 12 booby traps so far, two of them attached to cars in the parking lot, and their search was not yet complete, as of midnight EST.

How much do these folks get paid? I suspect most cities come pretty close to what Durham pays. Cops start at just under $25k per year. After eight years, they're making $38k. It's usually the younger guys who qualify for SWAT, their reflexes and eyesight being better. Also they aren't quite as worried about getting one through the forehead. Whether it's enough money to risk your life or not is a whole nother debate.

Although there was no metal detector in place at the school, I doubt it would have made any difference. When someone is intent on blowing away large numbers of people, not much will stop them.

As for it being Clinton's fault, well, problems were brewing in schools well before this--my child was at a New Orleans public school, starting in 1977 at age 11, and mile-high chain-link and armed security guards were in place even then. Kids were being knifed (my son was beaten on one occasion, burned with a cigarette another) and teachers were being raped by students. New Orleans was a comparatively safe city back then; larger cities suffered school problems long before New Orleans did. The only difference nowadays is guns are in the hands of troubled students.

Don't jump on me, I believe in the right to bear arms in this country, given the circumstances. But I also believe in parents being held accountable for their minor children's crimes if they've made no good faith effort to prevent them. This shooting wasn't the first sign that these kids were troubled. Juveniles are routinely released into their parents' custody in this state, even if they've stolen a car at three in the morning and rammed a police car with it. If you pay attention to the petty juvenile crimes, you stand a chance of preventing larger crimes.

Anybody want to volunteer as a mentor at his or her local school?

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), April 21, 1999.

"Terrorist!" "Gun Control!" "Drug War!" To name a quick 3.

I'm more concerned about Drudges "Chinese stole data on advanced warhead"

-- R. Wright (blaklodg@aol.com), April 21, 1999.

It's a good thing the SWAT were standing outside. Perhaps that kept any parents from running INSIDE to see if their kids were shot and needed help -- which I would be doing unless a SWAT member forcefully held me on the ground. Give me a freakin' shotgun, I'll play Linda Hamilton vs. Terminator anyday for my kid.

I knew the second I heard about this that it would probably invoke the gun-control nuts in full force. Why is it gun restriction people always make me feel like shooting them.

Due to this, I think my NEXT purchase is going to be a gun. I was putting it off but it looks to me like the laws may change before I do if I wait around too much longer.

PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 21, 1999.

Law's already changed, PJ. Feds now require more red tape for shotgun purchase, for instance. We got ours just before it went into effect--November, I think. You might want to look at a private gun sale. . .

-- Armed Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), April 21, 1999.

You people have lost all touch with reality. Here is a check for you.....25 CHILDREN ARE DEAD...NOT COMING HOME...DEAD! Your reaction? "Well guess I better go buy my gun before that there government goes and takes them away from us!" Well there is some thinking for you. Quick! Everyone to the gun stores! Forget the fact that 25 sets of parents are grieving tonight for their dead children! Yes...let's worry about arming this country more than it already is.

I own weapons and have for many years have been an advocate of the 2nd ammendmant....if this is how others like me think, I don't want to be associated with you or this damn thought process. You make me sick. For gods sake there are dead children and all you want is more guns.

Did any of you care to actually listen to the news reports? Did any of you care to hear that this trenchcoat mafia were basically the targets of all the jocks to be picked on. Think about this for a moment folks...this is going on in EVERY school in America every day. Some more will snap, so yes, let's make it easier for the kids...go but yourself some more guns...the world needs them.

-- Former Gun Lover (sickofitall@giveup.com), April 21, 1999.

You might want to read the other posts by people before categorizing them so badly. You are clearly traumatized and striking out. I understand and forgive you.

I don't want to talk about dead children. I worship my child and have a hard time even thinking about the concept without bawling my head off.

Since this is a Y2K forum, I would rather talk about Y2K and what effects modern events might have on that topic. That is, after all, the only point to posting news stories here, is that they in some way might related to Y2K.

And yes. Once I got past the first shock and horror and grief of this news story, the first thing I thought about was the result on gun laws and the fact that if I didn't get one now, and eventually couldn't as a result, I might be very sorry a year from now.

Does that make me mercenary? Callous to children? No. It makes me thoughtful. Probably as a result of my childhood, usually the more traumatic a situation is, the more unemotional and mentally-quick I get. A survival instinct. This happened at a distance. I had hours and hours to talk about it, write about it, and get past that before I came back to the board with the comments about buying a gun.

I get paid tomorrow. I'm off to view the Dallas want ads for 'sporting equipment'....

PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 21, 1999.

<< You might want to read the other posts by people before categorizing them so badly.>>

Read every post that precedded mine

<< You are clearly traumatized and striking out. I understand and forgive you. >>

Yes, I am traumatized and I am striking out, but at two things. The horrors of today and what I find to be a sickening thought process in this thread. As for forgiveness....up to you, but I don't seek it.

<< I don't want to talk about dead children. I worship my child and have a hard time even thinking about the concept without bawling my head off.>>

Then think for a minute. Look at your next comment "Since this is a Y2K forum, I would rather talk about Y2K and what effects modern events might have on that topic. That is, after all, the only point to posting news stories here, is that they in some way might related to Y2K. " Well first off, this is an "off topic" thread. And second, I am glad you can do it, but I can not, and will not, remove the dead children from the equation.

<>

Very different thought processes. The effect of this on gun control only came to my mind when I came into this forum and saw this thread. I could really care less how this affects gun laws...I am a little too preoccupied with the tragedy.

Does that make me mercenary? Callous to children? No. It makes me thoughtful. Probably as a result of my childhood, usually the more traumatic a situation is, the more unemotional and mentally-quick I get. A survival instinct. This happened at a distance. I had hours and hours to talk about it, write about it, and get past that before I came back to the board with the comments about buying a gun. >>

I am several states away, but it felt like it was my town. There are no boundaries when it comes to children.

<>

I am sure you can guess my comment.

Look, I am angry, and any other day I would probably be more calm, but what I see is people that are far more concerned with how this affects their lives. Well I say "Selfish bastards and "wah"" How about you take the money for a new gun and instead contribute it to the families that just lost their most precious possessions...their children. Guns be damned when the right to own one becomes more important than the tragedy that caused your thoughts. The rights are not going away in 24 hours...couldn't any of you have even allowed for a mourning period?

PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 21, 1999.

-- Former Gun Lover (sickofitall@giveup.com), April 21, 1999.

italics off off off

Your quoting above makes my words look like yours and yours look like mine in places. Oh well.

I'm sorry you've taken this very personally (and projected very personally). Let's see if we can salvage this discussion and use it for constructive talk instead of argument.

I did not ask you to stop thinking about the children and I'm sorry if you felt I did. It was late, I probably presented it badly. Feel welcome to include them in your 'equation' and your discussions permanently. I did not actually question what you were feeling about the children. I agree completely with your horror and grief. (However I might mention that I specifically did NOT watch any more TV once I heard about it, knowing that the media would keep my emotions enthralled all night if I did so -- I have learned not to let presentation provide me more trauma than the news itself does.) I was simply defending myself from attack.

Victims are always part of the 'equation.' They are also the reason for the horror I and everyone felt. But any subject has many aspects. I was addressing an aspect I thought belonged here. I didn't bother addressing TOO much (I did on a couple other threads briefly) of my personal feelings about this. Not because I don't have any, just because readers here aren't my therapist, and they come to a Y2K forum to talk about Y2K mostly. I could obsess on the murdered kids. I could obsess on Andy's and INVAR's posts too, but I don't, *except* on the aspects of them that relate to Y2K.

I've been moderating and sysopping online forums for many years, and its a matter of etiquette, and a matter of contributing in such a way that is honest and yet keeps enough extremes out to allow real conversion (not just reaction, emotion and flaming) to take place. I realize that when someone is emotional that seems pretty silly. I've just learned to limit the degree of influence my emotions have on my writing is all. I can sit here and cry if I can't help it, but I don't push a 'submit' button until my head is at least halfway clear. I can help that.

I don't mind talking about the children, the state of the world, the decay of our culture, the decline of our civilization, or any other related topic that is also a 'part of the equation'. But somewhere I will also probably talk about the effect this tragedy has had on Y2K, and on topics that relate to Y2K such as culture, preparation materials (including guns), social response, etc. And generally I expect to do that without getting ranted at for it, since Y2K discussion is after all why we're here.

You also might consider that some people, when upset, can only talk about what they're upset about. Other people, when upset, try very hard to talk about anything ELSE. Perhaps we are both just acting out our own responses to the same feelings.

PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 21, 1999.

What's wrong is that "culture of death" spoken of by Pope John Paul II which has infected our society. Life is cheap. Morals are inconvenient. Violence is celebrated, applauded, and justified for very blurry reasons in both the "entertainment" industry and in real life. This combination of factors pushes back the envelope of what is considered wrong. When you have an ever-increasing acceptance that right and wrong don't even exist (except in the subjective perception of the observer), this sort of tragedy is bound to happen.

Most people think of this as horrible. It is. But if moral, virtuous behavior and attitude can be visualized as a giant bell curve--with St. Francis or Gandhi on one end and Jeffrey Dahmer on the other--when the median gradually shifts in the direction of Dahmer you are going to risk dozens of more Columbine(sp?)HS incidents. That is why the tragedy is OUR tragedy and why at one point we are going to have to "turn the tide" by doing more good and rejecting more evil. It sounds simplistic. It is. But it's ultimately the only way.

I'm not saying that these terribly rabid boys weren't responsible for their own actions. They were. But we, too, are responsible. Did you see a movie recently which boasted a high "body count?" I did. I saw the Matrix. It was thrilling and titilating, but only now has it dawned on me that my seven bucks was spent on perpetrating the huge Hollywood Marketing Machine which always seeks to outdo itself by depicting violence and gore on a greater and greater scale; gradually it makes televised tragedies such as yesterday's seem more palatable and "ho-hum." When I left the theater after "The Matrix," I felt slightly invincible and slightly aggressive. Like most people it had an effect on me. I could tell that this was true because of the way people were driving out of the theater parking lot, making more risky moves and darting more often around than say, after a flick like "One True Thing" or "Ulee's Gold".

Not that this is necessarily wrong. But consider that for every thousand people who get that cinematic adrenaline rush, one or two of the more vulnerable sort get absolutely tweaked out from it. It goes straight to their heads. They can't get enough of that violent fantasy world, so they seek to recapitulate it in reality in varying degrees.

It is much like booze at a party. We all now that some of us can get stinking drunk if we wanted to, make big fools of ourselves, and then wake up the next morning with perhaps a few regrets and a slight hangover...but nothing more...with no alcohol addiction or craving to do it again. But some at the party really can't control the urge to "let loose" and ultimately end up wrapping their car around a telephone pole after multiple binges. Yes they are responsible for their action. But the non-alcoholic people at the party who were drinking irresponsibly share a slight amount of moral burden. If they'd been more moderate, they could have influenced the alcoholic peer to "go easy" or take a cab home.

The "booze" in society i'm talking about is of course the trend which is making life cheap, convenient, easy, guiltless, expendable, and with no regrets. It's what's making lots of us into cogs in a great Consumption Machine, unfeeling robots whose main task is to increase one's stash.

Something's got to change, and in all fairness we need to begin with ourselves.

-- jc (jpc4e@virginia.edu), April 21, 1999.

The kids were into Marilyn Manson. Ever see one of his videos? Ever listen to "Antichrist, Superstar?" The company that markets this filth, MTV, and the cable companies that pump the bilge into homes should be held accountable, just as cigarette makers have been held accountable for lung cancer deaths. The amoral chickens we have bred have come home to roost. It was illegal for kids at Columbine to bring bibles to school, but I bet they could bring Marilyn Manson CDs in, no legal problems there. Meanwhile, our government does the same thing these kids do: murder people when they don't get their way. Except the government gets to use really profitable missiles and planes. And one last off the cuff response. If I were standing outside the school with a gun, and knew kids were shooting other kids inside, I'd go in and take my chances. The cops in Littleton are physical cowards, and there was a day, once, when real men would have rushed in and either put a stop to it or died trying. Those 'men' should be ashamed of themselves. Cowards.

-- Spidey (in@jam.com), April 21, 1999.

Spidey, I disagree with the first part. What plays on the television in a child's home is the responsibility of the parent who runs that home. It is not logical nor sane to take away the rights of other individuals, and adults, to do what they want, to "protect" someone else. Most all the rights that have been eroded from the citizens of this country have been done as part of "preventing potential" crime. If anything, the idea that we as people and parents have no personal responsibility, I see that as a large part of the problem itself.

And no matter that I totally agree about the music, the fact is that some actions (such as restrictions) "set a precedent," legally, that is far too dangerous to be allowed to exist. It's like saying a person cannot 'incite violence' -- a short time later a person wouldn't be allowed to so much as SPEAK without having it categorized and assigned some penalty. That one law that seemed like a good idea would devolve into something horrible. Unfortunately there are some bad things one has to put up with just because the results of not doing so are worse than doing so.

I very much agree on the last two parts though: First, that our government seems to act like a tantrumy teenager and we're always bombing somebody for something it seems, so why is it so amazing if people are inured to the idea.

Second: that I'm going to be HACKED off bigtime if this tragedy does not at least cause someone to consider why those kids most likely BLED TO DEATH -- many of them perhaps could have been saved, who knows?! -- while they laid there wounded for HOURS -- because the !@#$%#$^!@#$! cops were too SCARED to go in. Bombs! BFD! If my kid is in that school, you give me a piece for defense and I'll damn straight go in there. They sent all the parents away to another school where they could "wait for word." Then they stood outside for hours and let those kids DIE. And apparently that's okay with somebody. That's "proper procedure." That is so horrifying to me I can't believe it.

You know that every parent is going to wonder, every night for the rest of their lives, if they could have done something, wonder if their child lay on the floor in agony for hours and wished for mommy. (Now I'm upsetting myself.) To me, that part of this is just another piece of the tragedy.

PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), April 21, 1999.

Well, it looks like we weren't "hearing imaginary things."

Unfortunately, there IS a Y2K (tenuous) connection with the Colorado school tragedy. And who should confirm it but a certain known reporter to this Forum, whose spin wobbles on whatever trendy take makes him look 'cool,' regardless of any sense of integrity.

Gloating at the collective alarm and discomfort we've shared from our decent, saddened hearts, De.clan twists the verification:

Denver Shooters Were Y2K Buffs

Last night we went to another CERT class to reinforce basic skills in fire prevention and correct use of fire extinguishers. It felt so good to drill these practical skills which will enable us to help ourselves, our neighbors and community, and assist the Fire Dept. should Y2K disruptions occur in significant numbers and effects. Every class has more information which is useful.

Because we go into elders' homes to assist them when they have been unable to attend to many home safety tasks, learning these simple and highly effective disaster prevention measures gives us another way to help safeguard our community.

When you are overwhelmed and saddened by tragic news, direct that energy into using the wonderful community-building tips and techniques so well-detailed on this amazing Forum by going out into your neighborhoods and reaching out, helping your community develop self-reliance and self-sufficiency and safe environments.

xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx x

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 21, 1999.

PJ -

So you want my husband the cop to go running into a building to "save" a victim that he doesn't know is alive or dead without knowing the layout of the building but with the knowledge that there are bombs and an unknown number of people firing at anything that moves?When he is blown to smithereens, that leaves my son without a Father and me with no husband and his mother with no child. Cops use caution for a reason and sometimes it takes a little time. If you were a cop and your children were not involved, would you still be so anxious to run in there yourself? Personally, maybe, but your training would preclude you from doing that. And if you want me to get mercenary about it, how much pay is worth your life and those around you (swat teams are just that, TEAMS). Don't be so quick to judge til you've walked a mile in the other guys boots. I'm sure every cop there wishes they had been able to get in there quicker and will feel that the rest of their lives. By acting as they did, we will never know how many lives they SAVED.

-- Valkyrie (aono@please.net), April 21, 1999.

Valkyrie: If your husband the traffic cop doesn't want to do it, I'd volunteer. Give me a nine, and a rough map drawn on a napkin, and WITHOUT HESITATION I'd go in and try my level best to stop the carnage. PJ: the repressive law you fear has already been adjudicated: the anti- abortion website that was shut down for 'inciting violence.' If speech that is clearly political in nature can be outlawed (although I expect the decision will be overturned on appeal) I have little trouble with class action suits that target purveyors of sickness. The same thing happened against the band Judas Priest about 15 years ago, when a murder victim's parents sued the band and the record company for inciting the murderer. I like your posts, you seem like a right-minded individual (whatever that means nowadays) but I ask again: have you ever SEEN a Marilyn Manson video?

-- Spidey (in@jam.com), April 21, 1999.

Kevin, here is the Washington Post article link you were looking for:

Up to 25 Die in Colorado School Shooting

... "The small group, said Columbine senior Zach Piercy, was composed mostly of seniors who wore black clothing and black trench coats to school and sounded doomsday warnings about the Year 2000 and the end of the millennium. Some of their classmates described them as white supremacists absorbed by Gothic fantasies." ...

"...the group had been a presence at Columbine for about two years and had frequently told students they "might as well kill everybody" because the end of the world was coming."...

----------------------------------------------------------------

TEOTWAWKI  The End Of The World AS WE KNOW IT

But that has already been happening, accelerating now. Stop the clock.

xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx

-- Leska (allaha@earthlink.net), April 21, 1999.

I read with interest the posts on this topic. With two teenagers, this hits a little close to home, especially when I hear the stories coming from our suburban high school. My daughter is a member of the jock culture, by virtue of playing on a school team. No matter that she was only last year considered to be a geek. She says that there are a couple of girls who are ready to assume the worst of her, because she proudly wears her letter jacket. She will say "Hi" to girls who were friendly (or at least neutral) last year, and they say "F--- off, bitch" this year. What's the difference? The exterior, the very basis that these kids are so infuriated about being judged on themselves.

My son also walks between the two worlds. He is a baseball player who plays on a team that travels around the city and the southeast. He also plays "Magic", a strategic card game with fantasy creatures, with tournaments, lingo and geeky culture all its own. The two worlds barely intersect. He says he would never bring it up to his baseball teammates, because their scope of interests don't extend beyond baseball and professional wrestling, and he fears ridicule. Yet he would have been targeted by the Columbine H.S. killers because he is a jock. "Don't judge me by my appearance, whatever uniform of violence and hatred I have adopted, or you are a bigot. However, it is perfectly acceptable for me to judge you by that standard."

Many folks have brought up our violent movie and music culture. How much has the "Jock" culture contributed? When did the jocks go from being the strong, silent role models to the thugs they are all too often now? Was it the steroids? Is it the "Kill 'em" mentality of coaches, who can't just win but must "Crush" their opponents? Is it the glamorization of kids who can catch a football to flash and glitter sneering rock star status? How many coaches out there encourage a team to trash talk the opponent? How many present the other team as the enemy, rather than another group of young men or women against whom they will test their ability and skills? How many will bench a player who demonstrates poor sportsmanship, poor attitude, poor winning or losing behavior? How many still remember the ideal of youth sports as helping to grow fine young people, who have learned how to face adversity and success with class? For an excellent article on this topic check out this link: http://www.sportsjones.com/columbine.htm Charlton Heston's speech to the NRA was wonderful at distilling a lot of feelings and answering a lot of the more looney proposals that came out of this tragedy: http://www.nraila.org/ila/cham99.htm Thanks for the opportunity to comment on this issue. Jules

-- Jules (julia.walker@prodigy.net), May 17, 1999.

I wish more people had the courage to be martyrs like those in the "trenchcoat mafia." I don't like the way you all see the victims as the criminals. Death was a fate too painless for the people who were murdered.

-- Fake Name (Fake@Email.com), June 17, 2003.