Invar- As a rule I enjoy your postings. My goal is to get it right, as much as I can. I will expect failure on occasion, because that is what happens when the subject matter is shrouded with secrecy and the materials on said subject matter are not prolific. I do not want to nit-pick the details. I simply want to present as broad a base of information as possible and let others decide what really 'is'.

I personally do not believe full nuclear devastation will be allowed, in this country or others. I know you are drawing your conclusions from facts, however, I think the plan will be more to scare the masses into submission. After all, the people of the U.S. are a very strong asset. We not only consume, we produce. We just need to be herded into the right direction [into socialism which is a cotton candy term for communism]. We will be made to ask for change, and if it requires the nuclear angle, then it will be used. That, of course, is my opinion.

The following is not opinion, it is based on research.

The Dawes Plan and the Young Plan (named after 2 American Bankers who headed the committees that originated them) were international measures created to solve Germany's disastrous monetary problems (massive inflation) due to the debt created by the Versailles Treaty.

3 German Cartels were beneficiaries of credit under the Dawes Plan. These 3 became the industrial backbone of the Nazi war machine, and the financial backbone of Adolph Hitler's rise to power in Germany. "Of the 3 cartels, the chemical enterprise I.G. Farben (received) a flotation of $30 million from the Rockefeller's (bank). The U.S. War Department noted: 'without I.G.'s immense productive facilities, its intense research, and vast international affiliations, Germany's prosecution of the war would have been unthinkable and impossible' I.G. Farben also supplied 45% of the election funds used to bring the Nazis to power in 1933." [The Shadows of Power; James Perloff]

Certain U.S. firms did big business with I.G. Farben including Rockefeller's Standard Oil. American I.G. Farben, a subsidiary had several Council on Foreign Relations members as directors including Paul Warburg, Charles E. Mitchell and Herman A. Metz.

*I would say this constitutes aiding Natzi Germany, albeit secretively.*

As for Russia, I would suggest the reading of 'Major Jordan's Diaries' by Air Force Major George Racey Jordan for starters, he was a supply expeditor and liason officer from May 1942 to June 1944.

Some of the items sent to Soviet Russia during the above period:

121 merchant ships $123M 1285 locomotives $103M

trucks and buses $508M

tractors $24M

telephones $33M

generators $222M

*all paid for by the U.S. taxpayer*

Then to dig a little deeper into the power behing the Bolsheviks, read "Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution" by Antony Sutton, Stanford University Hoover Institute fellow.

And on to China-

Chang-Kai-Shek had been fighting with the communists led by Mao-Tse-Tung since 1941. "Threatening to withdraw U.S. support, General Marshall negotiated truces (dispatched by Truman) with the communists against Chiang's will. Chiang was then forced to accept communists into his government. Finally, after Mao had time to regroup and began to seize more territory, Marshall slapped a weapons embargo on.. . Chiang... In 1948, Congress voted $125 million in military aid to Chiang, but the Truman administration managed to bog it down in red tape until Chiang's defeat... On January 25, 1949, Congressman John F. Kennedy made an impassioned speech on the floor of the House. He said the responsibility for the China debacle rested; 'squarey with the White House and the Department of State. The continued insistence that aid would not be forthcoming, unless a coalition government with the Communists were formed, was a crippling blow to the National Government." [On the Horns of The Beast; Bill Still]

Nikolai, I will address your postings in a subsequent post.

-- (mass@delusions.com), April 30, 1999

Answers

Nikolai, after reading your posting (started on the following thread: http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000liQ )

My friend, we are of like mind and values. We do see much of the same insofar as an American future can play out. However, as I have posted above, I do not see communist China, North Korea, Russia, the Baltic states, or Cuba as a threat to the New World Order. In one way or another, they have been aided and nurtured by our own CFR. Natzi Germany and Bolshevik Russia were shown how to set up a debt-free monetary system to run their countries and further their communist agendas by the same authorities who created our debt-based monetary system (keep in mind that, although Germany and Russia floundered, it was not because the debt-free monetary system can't work, it was who was at the controls and how adept they were).

The real unknowns are the rebel nations of Islam, and I'm NOT talking about Saddam Hussein.

I personally believe China, Russia, and most other communist countries will elect to 'come under the NWO umbrella' so to speak.

Onto the manipulation of the gold markets. Perhaps some posters are aware of the class action lawsuit on gold price manipulation? Read all about it from Bill Murphy at:

http://www.lemetropolecafe.com/

I don't truly know what the Kosovo/Serb war is about and what our involvement is. I do believe NATO is a 'front', of which, by itself has no powers. I suggest that the Kosovo/Serb war is far more complicated than we can conceive. Observe these facts when making your conclusions:

The company of Brown-Root, who won a U.S. contract to build a multi- BILLION dollar military facility in Albania in SEPTEMBER 1998, is now being rushed into construction and completion.

The Caspian sea is purported to hold an incredibly vast amount of wealth in the form of mineral and oil deposits.

All other assertions made by Nikolai, I pretty much agree with, based on my own research and conclusions.

-- (mass@delusions.com), April 30, 1999.

I guess we're just gonna have to wait and see it play out. Whichever way it goes is not good.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsdaay@y2000.com), April 30, 1999.

Well Hell, I can't let it go that easy. First off you have to realize that the Great depression and the subsequent New Deal from FDR were not simply a manuever to get us off the gold standard. That event was a small scale test of whether the American people could be coerced through their own free will to accept socialism.

The ongoing support of the Russians was intended to give credence and guidance to the american Unions through the labor movement, period. Personally I think the NWO thought that Hitler would destroy this little nescesary evil they had created and never foresaw that Stalin would be able to hold out, even at horrendous cost.

There is also the matter of that little meeting Gore attended In Rio De Janero about ten years ago, the one where they outlined the goal of cutting the worlds population by half or more by the year 2001.

And finaly the intentional lowering of our nuclear defenses by Clinton.

They say you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. The Great depression disproved that theory pretty soundly. If you get that horse so thirsty he can't think straight he'll hit that water so hard and fast that he'll founder. You've got to remember too that the NWO possess no military foces or weaponry or even territory outright. Their primary weapon has always been money but the final implementation of their plan will require that the world willingly submit to their rule, indeed beg for their rule. That is going to be accomplished by making the horse very very thirsty. Yes I think those Soviet nukes will be used because 1. they need to have massive population cuts 2. They need the world to be so utterly devastated and devoid of hope that it will willingly come to them for salvation.3. they need those damned communist out of the picture once and for all. 4. they must get a handle on the Islamic threat and the easiest way to do that is through nuclear genocide.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), April 30, 1999.

And what do 'little people' do?

-- Helen (sstaten@fullnet.net), April 30, 1999.

It's been a while since I did any posting on this BB, because of so many of the negative responses I received when I brought up similar subjects earlier this year. It's reassuring to see that finally, more of you have apparently done some research, and discovered that I wasn't as crazy as some of you thought at the time.

I've read and followed this thread from 'No More Mr Nice Guy' to here, and I just can't keep still any longer.

I agree 200%+ with everything Niokli & INVAR have stated, it's truly a sad state the US is in today........we've let the NWO ELITE lead us down this path, and now, we are just going to have to pay the fiddler.

It's a VERY UGLY PICTURE, but this is where we are today. However, they will just have to count me among the part of the population decrease, because I will never get thirsty enough to drink from their waters.

-- Sandy Stambaugh (Patches96@worldnet.att.net), May 01, 1999.

Helen. I don't know what to tell you. Believe me I'm about as little as people come. I don't have the rescources to run from this thing, and more than likely I can't survive it in my present location. I would suggest prayer. The only way this is going to be stopped is if one of these nations regains control of itself and blows Switzerland off the face of the Earth. Even that won't wipe out this nest of vipers, but it will certainly get some of the main players and put a hell of a dent in their financial rescources. So in short it just aint happening.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 01, 1999.

It's been a while since I did any posting on this BB, because of so many of the negative responses I received when I brought up similar subjects earlier this year. It's reassuring to see that finally, more of you have apparently done some research, and discovered that I wasn't as crazy as some of you thought at the time.

I've read and followed this thread from 'No More Mr Nice Guy' to here, and I just can't keep still any longer.

I agree 200%+ with everything Niokli & INVAR have stated, it's truly a sad state the US is in today........we've let the NWO ELITE lead us down this path, and now, we are just going to have to pay the fiddler.

It's a VERY UGLY PICTURE, but this is where we are today. However, they will just have to count me among part of the population decrease, because I will never get thirsty enough to drink from their waters.

Our Constitution was initiated by some of the most intelligent men to ever live on this earth, and they had very definite morals and very high ethics that they believed in and lived by. Through the generations, we have allowed EVERYTHING THEY BELEIVED IN, FOUGHT FOR, and ENTRUSTED TO US, TO BE DESTROYED......... WHY ??????? ......... GREED !!!!! .......PLAIN and SIMPLE OBNOXIOUS GREED !!!!!!!!!

I repeat.........IT'S TRULY SAD, THE TOTALLY CONTROLLED POSITION WE HAVE ALLOWED OUR WONDERFUL, ONCE FREE, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA TO FALL INTO.

Sandy

-- Sandy Stambaugh (Patches96@worldnet.att.net), May 01, 1999.

Sorry about the repeat, I hadn't quite finished my ranting the first post, so I just continued it.........just seemed like maybe some of you could still use the repeated message..........if not, ignore, but if you didn't get it the first time around, maybe the repeat was helpful.

-- Sandy Stambaugh (Patches96@worldnet.att.net), May 01, 1999.

Nikolai, the little meeting Al Gore attended was the UNCED a.k.a. Rio Earth Summit in Rio De Janeiro in 1992. This, along with other summits have higlighted 'sustainable development' also known as the man and biosphere program brought to you by UNESCO (one of many cloaks). ~ see the following thread: http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000jTy

You bet they are gunning for a reduced population, and this has been a subject of great controversy since the early 1950's.

You and I agree on that. Where we part ways is on the nuclear issue. I do not believe they will do much more than a small bombing here and there to get the full attention of the U.S. population. After all, we have never experienced such a thing here on our soil. It won't take too much of this to get our full attention (along with the full and willing participation of the Dan Rather, Ted Koppel and Peter Jennings media team, bought and paid for, of course.)

Will they try to disseminate the population further? Of course they will, but it has been ongoing for several decades already in too many forms to name on this thread. Why bother if they were simply planning to nuke us all in the end? I just can't put it together logically.

More power to you if you see it more clearly, but with what I know, it just doesn't jive.

-- (mass@delusions.com), May 01, 1999.

mass-- Thanks for the refresher on that summit meeting, I couldn't remember the details and was working on something esle and didn't want to get sidetracked looking it up. I agree with you that they will not entirely devastate the United States. How they are going to stop it I don't know, but they have something up their sleeve. I can't help but feel the Russians are being led into a trap just as bad or worse than our own. I wonder if that star wars program was more sucessful than we were led to believe and they have the capability to knock out most of the incoming warheads? I figure they'll take care of most of the surplus population through biological means if past performance is any indicator.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y200.com), May 01, 1999.

The first thing the little person does is forget EVERYTHING they have EVER heard about the survivability of Nuclear War. It IS survivable. NOW: HOW? First, be somewhere that is NOT going to be a target. (Umm kinda like picking your parents for Heart Attack Risk Factor). Check out Skousen, use your common sense. Offut Air Base?? NAS Oceana-NORVA-CICLANT-Dam Neck ??? St. Louis (Telecom nexus)?? Cleveland??? Platsburg??? Masena??? Hotlanta??? Miami/Dade (Hurlbutt [sp] I think)?? DFW??? BOEING errr Seatle???

Any of these look familiar?? Are any of the things there repeated near you?? Lookk carefully and you will see where the concentric rings are ("Bummer of a birthmark, Hal" Appologies to G. Larsen).

You don't have to be too far away, and all you need to have is a place sheltered from the falling dust. Nowadays, the weapons are so effing clean, that you don't have to wait much more than a couple weeks.

GET AND READ Kresson Kearney's book on nuclear war survival. You are already doing HALF or MORE of what you need to do if you are prepping for at least a 7.5 .

If you survive the flash and the initial fires (eg you are several miles from ground zero) survival becomes very doable. Ask the Japanese. Many of the residents of the cities survived.

I have recommended Dean Ing's book: Pulling Through. Get it, read it, then re-read it for understanding and comprehension. As you consider making notes, don't bother, he has provided the notes in the back of the book. His PhD is in media theory, with a masters in (I think) either Structural or Mech Eng. He DOES know his technology (honeycomb composite race cars to stealth flying machines).

Above all, remember that the human organism is not all that easy to stop, and human organization (society, whatever name you want to hang on it) is even harder to kill.

Chuck, who is NOT into mushroom farming, NWO, or other "conspiracies" but who, like Rush, has to ask the question, "If someone had deliberately set out to destroy the military of this country, what would they have done differently?" Unfortunately, the only answer that my 'self' has offered is "BWAHAHAHAHWAHAHAAHWAHAHA"

-- chuck, a Night Driver (rienzoo@en.com), May 01, 1999.

Sandy, I know at first glance it looks like greed is the driving factor behind this, but I believe in my heart that the primary goal of these people is more idealistic. They think the human race is doomed to destroy itself unless they can reshape society in such a way as to eliminate wars and weapons of mass destruction forever. Kind of like Hitler they are trying to build the perfect society and prepare mankind for the next level of his evolution and eventual migration from this planet. Like Hitler though the lines they have and will cross to accomplish this goal are seen through absolute cold logic with no emotions involved. As far as they are concerned the billions of lives to be sacraficed in this operation are just a means to an end. The planet is not capable of sustaining a massive population for an extended period of time, and if mankind won't limit its procreation to an acceptable level they will do it for us. And if national leaders won't make the logical hard choices as they see them , then they'll do that too. It's all perfectly reasonble, if you are perfectly cold blooded.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 01, 1999.

Since I was looking these up I thought I'd post here while I was at it. The books Chuck was referencing are:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ 094248701X/n/qid=925537638/sr=2-1/002- 3598711-926942

Nuclear War Survival Skills by Cresson H. Kearny Amazon.com $19.50 Paperback 2nd edition (November 1988) Oregon Institute of Science & Medicine; ISBN: 094248701X Availability: This title is currently on back order. We do not have a reprint date for this title, but we expect to be able to ship it to you within 3-5 weeks.

and

http:// www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ 0441690513/qid=925537711/sr=1-4/002- 3598711-9269424

Pulling Through by Dean Ing ASIN: 0441690513 Availability: This title is out of print. Although it is no longer available from the publisher, we'll query our network of used bookstores for you and send an update within one to two weeks

From amazon.com.

PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), May 01, 1999.

DOH!!!! "We need tactical nukes" That is the wildcard NATO and the NWO are holding. After the collapse of the Soviet Union they dismantled the warheads from all their SS-18 medium range Nuclear missiles. While they have a crap load of ICBM's they are useless for attacking Targets like Italy or France because they are inside the shortest possible trajectory. That is why the russians have scrambled their submarine fleet and put their ICBM's on hair trigger. Nato has over 1000 attack aircraft inside their defensive perimiter and is sending in an additional 10 B-52's this week. Those nuclear tipped cruise missile we are supposed to be removing the warheads from are actually going to France on those B-52's in origional condition and being loaded onto the B-1's here at home. The B-2's would be loaded with laser guided nukes. In other words NATO has concluded that a Russian strike is ineviteable and is gambling they can take out the bulk of the Russian arsenal with bomber launched cruise missiles and Stealth delivered conventional Nuke bombs. I couldn't for the life of me understand why we were sending so many planes over there but now it is clear. A lot of people are very likely to die very soon.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 01, 1999.

Nikoli ,numerous studies have shown, books that I myself have read tell that the whole world ,whole world population could fit end to end ,elbow space into the state of Texas. I know none of us want to live with elbow space only but before i killed a single human being i would do it.These people like tree hugging Al Gore want you to believe that the world is over populated. The lord made this wonderful world and he knows everyone of us. We will either survive or we wont but until he comes there will always be his remnant ready to stand up for Him. This world isnt over populated we are just greedy, if things were still the way they were intended we would all have small lillte places we call our own gardens home school the things that matter, today everyone is in competition wanting the best more, bigger everything. I beleive the NWO is coming soon but its been planned for hundreds of years by men but the real cuprit is Satan himself who was exiled so many years ago and is very very patient to take with him everyone alive today and all who have gone on before years and years and years.

-- Avis (Avisandj@aol.com), May 01, 1999.

Since Mr Driver brought up Nuclear War Survival Skill (NWSS) I though I'd chime in with a hearty shout of support.

This is one of the BEST books you can have today. Even if you don't but into the chances of getting to the THE bright lights, this book is worth the money just for the survival information alone.

I got my copy from:

http://oism.org/nwss/s73p908.htm

The price is $19.95. I sent them $25 and requested it be sent first class. Got it in about 2 weeks.

GET THE BOOK

-Greybear, who is feeling pretty snobbish right now because he has a copy of Dean Ings' book Pulling Through. It has been a favorite for 10 years or so. But he has some slightly incorrect instructions in the back on how to build the KFM. NWSS is the source and has the correct info.

GET NWSS

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), May 01, 1999.

Kosovo is easy. TO keep the fact quiet, that the president, with his selling of our nuclear secrets to china, has committed treason.

-- SCOTTY (BLehman202@aol.com), May 01, 1999.

Avis brings up an important point about population. I think he/she was referring to the book "The War Against Population" by Dr. Jacqueline Kasun who proved statistically that if you were to take the entire world's population and put them in one place, they would be able to fit into the state of Texas.

I know I'm going to invite flames from the Gilda-Jessie extreme left winger socialists on this subject, but I do not believe the mass population of the planet are the *root cause* of our modern day environmental concerns. I grant you we're great consumers, crappers and polluters, but at the heart of the environmental problems of this planet are big government and big business. Legislation allowing terrible air and ground pollution, the use of incredibly dangerous chemicals and the practice of producing untold quantities of non- biodegradable garbage lies at the feet of the corporate entity and it's champion, big government. Don't feed me the line that they are only producing what we consume. B*llsh*t!

Conscientious leaders of integrity in big business and government would forge the way to allowing products/practices (since they have already been created) such as:

Enzymes that neutralize sewage, and I mean totally and completely with absolutely no bad effects (this has been around since the early 80's).

Vehicle engines that run off of water, soda pop, nuclear waste (that's right-absolutely no fossil fuels needed) and these marvels belch zero pollution, without sacrificing performance.

Free energy machines. Been around longer than most of us posting. No fossil fuels needed. No pollution required. Of course they're real, but don't count on seeing their implementation in your lifetime.

Worldwide organic farming practices. Do you know what the U.S. government does when they help a country to learn to grow food for themselves? They teach them how to use artificial fertilizers and pesticides. Totally absurd.

Okay, I could go on and on with the untold numbers of inventions and technologies that have been bought up and shelved, or squelched that would transform this planet of ours into an environmentally sound, clean paradise with the masses of people as happy as pigs about it.

I'm going to throw in for good measure that if we were left to our own devices (no media propaganda, no governments pushing war and manipulation on us) that we could all get along just fine. The evil machine of destruction does not lie in the hands of the masses, but in the corrupted powers that are driving the ship.

Our incredibly savvy forefathers who wrote the constitution and bill of rights felt the same way.

-- (mass@delusions.com), May 01, 1999.

Hey, don't stone the messenger. I agree with yall I'm just giving my opinion of what I think they think. As I have said before I believe any attempt by these elites at Global government is doomed to spiral into global slavery and misery. And anything concieved in such an evil fashion no matter what the intentions will be rotten to the core from conception. I'm going to work in my garden and get some fresh air and sunshine and try to forget that there is a group of intellectual elites plotting my death. see yall later.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsaday@y2000.com), May 01, 1999.

Nikolai, I would not dare try to flame your message. It's too close to the truth. Y'all have a great day in the garden. I myself am traveling 2 hours down the road to do some big-town shopping (since I live in a very small town with slim resources) for gutters, generator parts, etc. Will reconvene this evening.

-- (mass@delusions.com), May 01, 1999.

Since some of you have researched this thing, as opposed to many of us sheeple, what are the cities that are closest to the following former (maybe current) Russian targets in the U.S.?

When the enemy was the USSR, the the targets in America reportedly were:

1: Strategic nuclear weapons 2: Strategic C3 targets 3: Nuclear weapons storage areas 4: Other major C3 targets 5. Other major miliary targets 6. Military support facilities 7. Defense industry 8. Infrastructure (power, transportation, civil communications, etc.)

-- me (me@dontwannabenuked.org), May 01, 1999.

Mass Delusions - Nikolai,

I'm pretty high on the Doom & Gloom scale and I enjoy reading your posts, but you guys have thrown me for a loop.

You both sound like Noam Chromsky on Steroids.

Hope you can sleep at night....

Father

-- Thomas G. Hale (hale.t@worldnet.att.net), May 01, 1999.

Nikoli, you sound a GREAT deal like our erstwhile uber-poster, E. Coli.

-- Blue Himalayan (bh@k2.y), May 01, 1999.

In case anyone is interested, that previously mentioned nuclear survival manual is available online in its entirety at this site:

Nuclear Survival Skills

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), May 01, 1999.

Nathan, thank you very much for that link. I knew I had run across that before but did not take the time to read it. I will now...

Thanks again! mb

-- mb (mdbutler@coastalnet.com), May 01, 1999.

"The lord made this wonderful world and he knows everyone of us. "

Whose Lord? Yours? Mine? Some guy in Asia? Please be specific.

-- Doomer (s@arenotall.christians), May 01, 1999.

I sleep about as well as I ever have. If you folks think this is all a bunch of bullshit you need to think again. Everything we have been talking about is clearly documented and the perpetrators of this agends are right out in the open about it. It's not some big dark secret or conspiracy theory, these people openly admit what they are up to. It boggles my mind that the general public is totally unaware of this and laugh it off. That is the direct result of all this ufo crap and the other disinformation campaigns the government sponors. If you throw enough bullshit out there the general public will assume it is all crap, and that is exactly what they are counting on. Well I'll tell you something. What these people are planning is to turn the entire planet into a big game preserve and nature park, slash the population to a few hundred million absolutely critical slaves, and live life as kings and princes of old. You are not part of that crowd I assure you if you are reading this message. Get off your butt and do some research then come back here and tell me how off the wall this is.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 01, 1999.

Nikolai, my oh my, what have you been reading? I am waiting to see your book list! Can't wait.

-- (mass@delusions.com), May 01, 1999.

To All. I'm done. I came on this board with the intention of showing that Y2K was only a minor threat as compared to what else was looming in the future. I have documented and tracked this menace over the last three months and if you don't have a clue now you never will. We will either be at domestic war within the next six months or we won't. Either I am right or I am wrong, but we won't have long to wait one way or the other. I wish you all well in the future and may God be with you. And no I am not E Coli. Take care, Nikoli.

-- Nikoli krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 01, 1999.

Well, that's another of the last great posters gone.

-- Blue Himalayan (bh@k2.y), May 01, 1999.

Nikolai, I wasn't kidding. I want to know what you have been reading. It shouldn't be taken as an insult.

-- (mass@delusions.com), May 01, 1999.

...don't let the door smack you on the butt as you're leaving - and say hello to Ray for me when you get back to the looney bin...

-- Y2K Pro (2@641.com), May 01, 1999.

Nikoli,

As to your "book list". I doubt you have one. You strike me as being very poorly-educated and probably downwardly-mobile. I picture a white 30-something camped in a small apartment or trailer, no social network, lots of guns and fringe pamphlets, spending all their time on the internet posting. Get a grip, get some psychiatric counseling (make sure it isn't a Jew or a member of the NWO however!), find a mate, and try to get a life. You have lots of problems and are projecting your failures on the world-at-large. Get some help.

-- xy (xy@aol.com), May 01, 1999.

xy, you strke me as a "vulgar Marxist" - all the class consciousness with none of the high ideals. Why insult an interesting and creative poster ?

-- Blue Himalayan (bh@k2.y), May 01, 1999.

I'm gonna tell you something you arrogant bastard. I never claimed to be some kind of damned genius, I have made it perfectly clear from the start I am just a working man and that is all I have ever wanted to be. I don't play this keeping up with the Jones shit and never will. I drive a 1978 Chevrolet pickup, paid cash for it, and am perfectly happy with it. If it breaks I can fix it. If it takes a total shit I can pay cash for another one. I am going to exit this world beholden to no man. My house is paid for, my land is paid for, and I owe no payments other than my utilities.

My great grandfather fought at Gettysburgh. My Grandfather fought at Iwo Jima. My daddy fought in Korea, twice. If I hadn't been born with this crippled leg I'd be in Kosovo right now. And what I would be doing is defending the liberty of some snobbish arrogant piece of shit like you.

If you want to analize (yes that's the way I wanted to spell it) something, turn that scope around and look at yourself. Are you proud of what you see? I didn't think so. If you want a book list, here's one for you. Rielly's Luck, by Louis La'mour. I think one of the greatest American Novels ever written. And it has a message if you have the soul to hear. It helps if you sit on the rim of the grand canyon while you read it.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000 .com), May 02, 1999.

Sorry Mass I dont know what was wrong and frankly dont know what you were talking about Im not very computer literate. Doomer The God The only God My God Your God Their God Our Savior Their is only one. Unless you woshipp the stars or somthing like that . Whatever you beleive in Im serious now your religion trace it back to its founder than trace mine back Im a Jesus Christ worshipping Christian. We all have the same God and we will all know that all to soon.

-- Avis (Avisandj@aol.com), May 02, 1999.

Nikoli,

I hope you continue to post - I have learned a lot from a select few on this forum, you'll notice a lot of disinformation government trolls springing up on this forum and the net in general lately - the pace is hotting up, we're getting to the endgame. And where's E. Coli? Hounded off by similar wastrels. Hang in there.

-- Andy (2000EOS@prodigy.net), May 02, 1999.

E. Coli >>>>>> nee-kole-eye (nikolai)

sounds like a russky to me

-- dunce (noth@rdto.figure), May 02, 1999.

Nikoli already knows my sentiments from private email I've sent him, but I want it said here in "public" also.

Sometimes you just run low on pearls. The swine don't seem to notice one way or the other.

When the pearls run low AND the swine become agressive it's time to do something different.

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), May 03, 1999.

Niko: "Carborundum non illegitimati" or sumthin' like that: "Don't let the bastards wear you down." Taught to us the first day in med school. Don't worry about the flames: after all, they're just words on a screen, my man, words on a screen.

-- Spidey (iln@jam.com), May 03, 1999.

I'll be around guys, just not as frequently as before.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 03, 1999.

Nik,

I just wanted to say that I enjoy your posts very much. I realize that you have a great understanding of world politics and history. I always learn something when I read your posts. I hope you will continue to post for those that have a desire to listen.

-- Sharon (sking@drought-ridden.com), May 03, 1999.

Thanks Sharon but you greatly overestimate me. It seems to me that if you show the exact same piece of information to ten people you will get ten different interpretations of what it means. My interpretation is just that, my interpretation. It is no more likely to be correct than any of the other nine. I encourage all people to think for themselves and not rely on others to do their thinking for them. I think televison has trained American society over the last 30 years to expect their understanding of world events to be prepackaged and handed to them each evening on the news. We are rapidly becoming a society of media zombies incapable of independent thought who persecute those outside the p.c. box.

Mass, that barrage above was not aimed at you, I have enjoyed our discussion and find little meaningful difference in our points of view. It would be hard to give a top ten list of reference materials but I'll give it a shot.1. The Holy Bible. 2. The Koran 3. The Protocols of Zion 4. Mien Kamph 5. The Thousand Year Reich 6. The rise and fall of the Roman Empire 7. Barry Goldwater, without apologies 7. Reds 8. War and Peace 9. The vesailles accords 10. The United Nations Charter. I would also read Vietnam, the 100 year war, How the West was won, The Federalist Papers, and as many old American history books as you can lay hands on. I weekly prowl the aisles of our county library looking for lost treasure, a practice I highly recomend. The only problem with it is that you find yourself working from memory and general impressions without the reference materials at hand when you need them.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 03, 1999.

Yeah Nik, I gotta throw my 2 cents worths in also. DON'T LET THOSE FUCK-HEAD SOCALIST PRICKS DETER(dieter??) YOU FROM POSTING WHAT, IN MY OPINION, IS SOME OF THE BEST STUFF ON THIS FORUM. Perhaps they will all rot in hell. What do you think Jesse Jackson REALLY said to Molosivch to get him to release those 3 P.O.W.'s. I thinkthat J.J. is also NWO.

-- rick (I'mset@home.house), May 03, 1999.

I don't know what Jesse Jackson is. He is a Chameleon extrordinaire. I think he has pretty much given up any hope of ever being President, and he is moving towards disengagement with the mainstream Democratic Party. The Democrats abandonment of long term welfare and their rethinking of affirmative action are putting Jesse on the hot seat with his supporters. Right now I'm thinking Jackson will probably move to unite his backers with Farakhan's moslems in support of a far left wing divison of the democratic party, commonly known as the democratic socialist party of a America. While they will not be able to elect a candidate the threat of a split in the democratic power base will force the democrats further left from center in their rhetoric if not their actual policies. He's been around a while and knows that poor blacks and whites will be the ones to pay the price if Clintons little war turns into a meat grinder, so this trip to Kosovo can only serve to strengthen his support at home. Personally I'm glad he got the men released no matter what his motives.

-- Nikoli Krsushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 03, 1999.

Nikolai,

I am sure that Ben, Sam, Tom and the others that wrote the Federalist Papers, and the Constitution considered that they were just "doing their duty and expressing their opinions." Keep up the good work!!!!!! These posts may become the root of the "Federalist Papers" of 2000 and 2001. History does have a tendancy to repeat itself:)

Wishing for more like you in America today.

Merlin.

P.S. From the Boss, Mrs. Merlin: "As for JJ's personal agenda, It's immaterial in my opinion, as long as he got our soldiers returned to their families, and US territority, I personally don't give a rat's a** what his personal agenda was or is!!!!!!!!"

-- Merlin Emery (Merlin Emery@yahoo.com), May 03, 1999.

Thanks Merlin. Personally I hope we can keep the old Constitution intact and not have to rewrite it after some kind of civil war. I think the key to this whole thing is education. If the American people can be made to understand what current government policies are leading to, and what old policies have resulted in, they will realize just how out of control our government is. this hasn't been government by, for, and of the people for a very long time. Since 1913 to be specific. I try my best to present the views of the origional founders of this country in an unadulterated fashion, and then give logical and easily understood examples that show how the government has deviated and where that deviation has failed the people.

On Jesse Jackson and NATO, I think these mad dogs and Englishmen need to come in out of the sun. Solar max is really affecting their judgement. The NATO response to Milisevic releasing the soldiers was to refer to them as "Hostages" not POW's, no offer of counter release of Serbian P.O.W.'s, and to bomb all of the Serb civillian power plants the same night. I was watching the English NATO spokesman on c- span and the man was literally on the verge of glee talking about blowing up those power plants. I shouldn't say blowing up, they dropped fiber bombs on them shorting everything out. Probably worse than bomb damage in the long run because the Serbs will waste years trying to get them to run reliably again and could probably build new ones faster and easier. The NATO policy of no compromise is arrogance and brutality in the extreme. These people seem to be enjoying destroying a weaker nation and that troubles me greatly. Frankly it scares me. A preview of an unapposed One World Government Military dealing with a rebellious slave state.

-- Nikoli krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 03, 1999.

Niki,

Two things come to mind. One is a piece of advice I reciecved as a new teacher. "The best teachers are are consumate theifs. They take what they like from successful teachers, and modify it to suit their own classroom." And second, a remark that I heard once credited to Albert Einstein, "If I see more than most, it is because I stand upon the sholders of Giants." Don't belittle yourself for "parroting" the acutal words and ideas of the founders. Someone needs to remind the rest of us what they said, and bring a little "light into the darkness" of current events. Your insight is more valuable to many of us "lurkers" than the evening news "spin."

Thankx again.

Wishing that Texes offered "honorary citizenship :)

Merlin.

P.S. from the Boss: "Again, as for JJ getting the troops released, and back with their families, my comments were made as a mother who has a son in the service stationed in Germany, and lives with the daily possibily that he too might be sent to Kosovo at any time. If that were the case, and he wound up in that same situation as those three soldiers, I would be thankful to anyone who brought him back. I have never agreed with what NATO is doing, I just would want my son released."

-- Merlin Emery (MerlinEmery@yahoo.com), May 03, 1999.

Although I have been manning (dogging?) the other side of the forum store (um, "Y2K"?), I follow these and related threads avidly.

A fan of y'all (does that mean I can come to meetings in Texas)?

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), May 03, 1999.

Big Dog, It's not my shindig but I bet Greybear wouldn't mind a bit. I lived all over this country growing up and was always made to feel at home where ever we were at. Seems like the least I can do to return the favor. (my dad was a union pipefitter and worked on travel permits mostly because Texas is a right to work state, He started working overseas when I was a freshman in high school, mostly in the mideast oilfields but also South America, the Carribean, and several Asian countries. I have to say that Arizona or Utah would be my second choice after Texas.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 03, 1999.

Big Dog,

Thankx for listening. Hope to see you in Texas in a couple of weeks if you can make it. The Boss and myself are planning to attend if things work out.

Wishing for a good trip from Florida,

Merlin.

P.S. I am sure you are invited, and if no one gave you a personal invitation, consider this it :)

-- Merlin Emery (MerlinEmery@yahoo.com), May 03, 1999.

Niki and everyone else,

We need to stand together and keep this community going. Don't feel you should bail because of an alternate point of view or the personal attacks made by a few individuals.

It isn't difficult to see why someone would attack a person rather than a position if the position makes them uncomfortable or challenges their thinking.

The current band of new flamers don't understand that a few months back this forum was a great source for civil debate about many issues as well as helpful tips on preparations. The complete picture of what a world that might suffer through y2k disruptions might be like was being debated with some great thought being provided.

Right now, we seem to be suffering through a wave of "neener neener neener" posters who would rather attack the poster than argue the point or position of the poster in a civilized way.

I know how you feel Niki but don't bail. I really enjoy your perspective and your insight and I don't want to lose any view even if it is different than my own.

Mike =========================================================

-- Michael Taylor (mtdesign3@aol.com), May 04, 1999.

Mike, I appreciate all of the support you guys and gals have given me. Don't worry, I aint going anywhere. Somebody's got to keep these trolls occupied.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 04, 1999.

Michael, Nik et al (you scumbags know who you are :)

and CO. Yes I have been mercilessly attacked over the last few months - perhaps I am an AOK class 1 arsehole (sorry Greybear Ass Hole or is it Asshole) BUTt (no pun intended, well, maybe) even so, enough is enough.... :)

Believe it or not it is with some trepidation lately that I shuffle sloth-like up to the Keyboard and hit the tit!

I'm gonna be here for the duration - hope you all can do so too.

Where else to go?

Ha!

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), May 04, 1999.

Oops, formattings' gone to hell in a handbasket, much like... oh, never mind

Welcome back Nikoli :)))

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), May 04, 1999.

Great Andy, you make an outstanding x-files version of Dianne, and some of those post contain some real nuggets of gold not to be found in your local paper.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 04, 1999.

Ah, folks, jj was NOT the person who got it done. I (in a fit of sleep-drunken cleaning) threw out the apropriate paper, but the lady from the World Council of Churches who was with him is credited here in the Burg for effecting the release by saying something along the lines of "It's shit or get off the pot time. Someone has to be big enough to move from dead center, are you big enoough?" (clearly in more diplomatic terms but not much, maybe more ladylike terms??) She is the mom of one of our county mucky-mucks.

Chuck

-- chuck, a Night Driver (rienzoo@en.com), May 04, 1999.

Andy as an X-files version of Diane. YES! YES! YES! ROFL. Exactly so. Even better, imagine Andy and Diane doing an X-Files together. Whoa. OK. Not.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), May 04, 1999.

If she looks anything like my screen queen I'm up for it! :)

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), May 04, 1999.

Merlin, actually the quote is from Sir Isaac Newton, the famous physicist, mathemetician and more... who said in a letter to his colleague Robert Hooke dated 5 February 1676...

"If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants"

Note to Nik.K: hang in there bud! I feel bad for even suggesting any resemblance of your posts to E Coli's. I meant it as a mark of high respect, but some trolls will use anything for fodder.

-- Blue Himalayan (bh@k2.y), May 04, 1999.

Nik: I too enjoy your posts, as they make me think a little harder. It's when you toss in nuggets like

"What these people are planning is to turn the entire planet into a big game preserve and nature park, slash the population to a few hundred million absolutely critical slaves, and live life as kings and princes of old."

that I realize you are a little paranoid. Now, I have no doubt that there are probably a few sick individuals that are intent on something like this, but to implicate the entire CFR in such a conspiracy? That is groundless.

-- a (a@a.a), May 04, 1999.

Blue,

Thankx for the correction. I knew it was someone I admired. Newton and Einstein are in the same category of respect for me.

Wishing for a clearer memory :)

Merlin

-- Merlin Emery (MerlinEmery@yahoo.com), May 04, 1999.

a, yep sounds pretty whacky without the explanation. I am not referring to the entire NWO. I'm talking about the essential absolute core group. They have already started laying the groundwork for this little garden party in their Heritage preserves, Bio corridors, and ecological treaties. I would like for you to change directions here 90 degrees and think about the recent advances in cloning and gentic engineering. With current technology we already have the ability to create unlimited numbers of fully funtional spare bodies, and to make improvements on those bodies in the very near future. All that is lacking to achieve near eternal life is the ability to transfer memory from a funtioning brain to a blank brain in a duplicate, but much younger body. Obviously this is technically possible because nature does it every day. All animals are born with skillsets already in place, that are not learned behavior. Do you think this eternal life will be shared with the masses as they exist now? If you do I have some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.

Many people think the NWO is about money, but it's not and never was. the NWO is about power. Money was never anything more than a weapon or tool to achieve their ends. I would venture to guess the average NWO CORE member could spend a million dollars a day and die quite wealthy at extended age. How much money does a man need? These people have made it perfectly clear that if you are not of the old royal patrician bloodlines you are either a useless eater to be exterminated or a servant class worker. Money is for wimps, these people seek the ultimate prize. Godhood.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 04, 1999.

A (possibably apocraphal) story has a reporter ask John D. Rockefeller "Sir, as one of the wealthiest men in the world, I know my readers would like to hear your answer to the question 'How much is *enought* money', I know I for one would like to hear you answer."

John D. said "A little bit more"

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), May 04, 1999.

Thats pretty intense Nik. Its possible I suppose. I guess if Hitler had not been stopped, that type of future could have resulted. But its a hard stretch to see how America, with its 250 million private firearms, could devolve into such a nightmare, regardless of how devious Clinton may be, or how hungry y2k will make the masses. But you make a compelling point: never underestimate the evil that lurks in the heart of men.

-- a (a@a.a), May 04, 1999.

a---It's hard to see how america, with its 250 million firearms, could devolve to such a point no matter how devious Clinton is.

MY point exactly. The United States must be disarmed or destroyed to complete the NWO agenda. Go back to about the halfway point of No More Mr. Nice Guy and start where I began reposting the old essays I had written about Clinton, nuclear war, and the NWO.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 05, 1999.

Nik: You got me on that one. I had been following that thread, but missed the significance of why the US must be disarmed or destroyed to complete the NWO agenda. Damn. Well, hopefully if the plan is real it will not be able to be carried out. And I'm still betting that synchronicity is responsible for most of this mess.

Thanks.

-- a (a@a.a), May 05, 1999.

well, this thread finally swung back around to the original topic, so i'll add my .02 here.

first, nikolai, glad you're sticking around. i'm in agreement with you probably as much as anyone else around here.

second, for a very good look at how the sov's (or anyone else with enough firepower) could get this country to submit see john ball's novel The First Team, printed in 1977 i think.

third, if our military had been gutted (as it has) and an occupying force threatened (and delivered on its threat) to nuke cities when resistance fighters scored small victories, would you still pick up your ar-15 and shoot an occupier? i personally have no problem with fighting to the death as opposed to slavery, but will i fight when the punishment is the death for thousands or more of others?

maybe so, if you can justify it by telling yourself they're better off, but i hope we don't come to that.

-- Cowardly Lion (cl0001@hotmail.com), May 05, 1999.

Cowardly Lion, You ask the hard ones don't you? But really in the final analysis your question provides it's own answer. Will I pick up my AR-15 and fight? Every person capable of fighting is going to have to ask this same question of themselves. Even given the impending results you give, enough of them will answer yes to render the question meaningless on a personal level. So the question you are really posing is would you rather die as a hostage without honor, or as a man fighting for your freedom. I have no trouble at all answering that one. Got Ammo?

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 05, 1999.

Nikoli

yes!

-- Cowardly Lion (cl0001@hotmail.com), May 05, 1999.

I'm skeptical. The Feds are not stupid. They know that people like Nikoli, who will fight, are a VERY small minority. It is the boiling frog thing again. Never establish a point of resistance. This is Sun Tzu applied to bureaucratic policy. People have this image of the APC's driving up their front lawn. But it won't be like that next time.

Advice: put your morals, principles, patriotism, religion, etc. aside for a minute. Read The Art of War and think about disarming American as a strictly tactical problem, from a bureaucratic and military (but not necessarily combat) point of view. How would you go about it ?

zhi ji zhi bi bai zhan bai sheng

-- Blue Himalyan (bh@k2.y), May 05, 1999.

Excellent point Blue, and I agree with you. I have read the art of war also, still have a copy of it around here somewhere.

The government has already made it clear how they intend to disarm the American Public. Knowing they do not yet have the popular support to abolish the second amendment they have elected instead to go through the United Nations. Over the last several years The U.N. has greatly increased it's attack on the private ownership of firearms and set numerous precedents as a national police agency which transcends National boundaries and soverignity. Clinton's executive orders have been establishing the groundwork for a supreme court ruling that treaty law and commitments supercede our constitution and bill or rights. This approach will save them decades of re-education of the American public, give some legal status to their actions, and render United Nations troops available to enforce the action and control rebellious units of the American Military Forces.

I have to disagree with you that only a very small percentage of the american population will fight them on this. I think when TSHTF a lot of Americans are going to look around and see those United Nations troops and Federal Gestapo Stormtroopers killing their friends and family and realize what has happened. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 05, 1999.

Some Relevant quotes to ponder.

What is at stake is more than one small country, it is a big idea - a new world order...to achieve the universal aspirations of mankind...based upon shared principles and the rule of law.... The illumination of a thousand points of light.... The winds of change are with us now." President Bush - In his State of the Union message during the Gulf War. "It is the sacred principles enshrined in the United Nations charter to which the American people will henceforth pledge their allegiance." President Bush addressing the General Assembly of the U.N., February 1,1992 "We have a much bigger objective. We've got to look at the long run here. This is an example - the situation between the United Nations and Iraq - where the United Nations is deliberately intruding into the sovereignty of a sovereign nation.... Now this is a marvelous precedent (to be used in) all countries of the world...." Stansfield Turner, CFR member and former CIA director, when asked about Iraq on CNN. "We are beginning to see practical support. And this is a very significant sign of the movement towards a new era, a new age.... We see both in our country and elsewhere... ghosts of the old thinking.... When we rid ourselves of their presence, we will be better able to move toward a new world order...relying on the relevent mechanisms of the United Nations." Soviet President Gorbachev at the Middle East Peace Talks in Madrid (1991) "In my view The Trilateral Commission represents a skillful, coordinated effort to seize control and consolidate the four centers of power - political, monetary, intellectual, and ecclesiastical. All this is to be done in the interest of creating a more peaceful, more productive world community. What the Trilateralists truly intend is the creation of a worldwide economic power superior to the political governments of the nation-states involved. They believe the abundant materialism they propose to create will overwhelm existing differences. As managers and creators of the system they will rule the future." U.S. Senator Barry Goldwater, Republican candidate for President in 1964, in With no Apologies "We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto determination practiced in past centuries." David Rockefeller, founder of the Trilateral Commission, in an address before that organization in June of 1991 "From the days of Sparticus Wieshophf, Karl Marx, Trotski, Belacoon, Rosa Luxenberg, and Ema Goldman, this world conspiracy has been steadily growing. This conspiracy played a definite recognizable role in the tragedy of the French revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the 19th century. And now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their head and have become the undisputed masters of that enormous empire." Winston Churchill quoted by the London Press in 1922 "... when the struggle seems to be drifting definitely towards a world social democracy, there may still be very great delays and disappointments before it becomes an efficient and beneficent world system. Countless people - will hate the new world order - and will die protesting against it. When we attempt to evaluate its promise, we have to bear in mind the distress of a generation or so of malcontents, many of them quite gallant and graceful-looking people." H. G. Wells, in The New World Order (1939) "Welles and I differed, however, in our interpretation of the results of the Munich Conference, he being optimistic, I skeptical. In a radio address on October 3, several days after the conference, in which he described the steps taken by the United States Government just prior to Munich, he said that today, perhaps more than at any time during the past two decades, there was presented the opportunity for the establishment by the nations of the world of a new world order based upon justice and upon law. It seemed to me that the colors in the picture were much darker." Someone by the name of Hull, presumably speaking of Fabian Socialist H. G. Welles and the conference held by the European powers during Sept. 29-30, 1938. (Author's full name and source misplaced.)

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 05, 1999.

Nik: I am not sure conspiracy is the right word for the 1000+ year history of the Illuminati/Trilateral/CFR/NWO et al. Was the harnessing of fire a conspiracy? How about the development of iron tools and the advent of the Scientific Method? The point I think you are missing is that there may be forces at work here that beyond human comprehension, and I'm not just talking about Christianity. The progression

family>tribe>village>city-state>nation>global community

is a real one, and shows that while Evolution of higher social orders can be tricky, it seems to be what Nature has intended. Advancement is not always a bowl of cherries. But in the end, the specie benefits and acquires resilience. The only alternative for Man in the long haul may be nuclear warring, and extinction.

-- a (a@a.a), May 05, 1999.

a, I agree with you in your structural analysis, this is probably an inevitable progression. Probably even Nikoli would agree with the inevitability of this. The question is raises in my mind relates to population size and technology. Somebody did a thread on this once. Seems to me a huge population and advanced technology organized under global institutions will be coercive, under either the "jackboot" (1984) or "soma" (Brave New World) models, as somebody here (Nikoli ? E Coli ?) once phrased it. But again it doesn't matter much. Most of the world is neither free nor comfortable today. Moving to a totalitarian police state would be a step up for most of the world's population.

-- Blue Himalayan (bh@k2.y), May 05, 1999.

Just as an aside, Ill throw this in since this thread cant get much weirder

Regardless of your belief in extraterrestrial visitors, or whether the explanation is physical, psychological, or something else entirely, there is abundant evidence that some type of unexplained phenomena is causing people to think they are having encounters with aliens from space. My premise is that if we are indeed "not alone", "they" will not attempt to contact us directly until we "have our house in order", so to speak, as a planetary community. Like the advice on relationships, except on a cosmic scale: you need to be comfortable with yourself before you can be comfortable with others.

-- a (a@a.a), May 05, 1999.

a and Blue. I would have to write a book to give a full answer to your questions, and then it would be controversial. Death is ineviteable. Yet a man will give all he owns for one more day of life.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 05, 1999.

Nikoli, you are correct about death and time. There is nothing else.

My wife was a nursing student in California a few years ago. One of her "student patients" was the co-founder of one of the major software companies of all time (you'd know the name). He and his much more visible and flamboyant, playboy partner had taken a huge risk to start the company. It became one of the 3 biggest software companies in the world. This "patient" guy had worked himself half to death in the early years, 20 hour days, smoking and guzzling coffee in his basement, writing their first software programs while the other partner handled the marketing. Finally, success!

When my wife met him in the hospital, he and his partner were among the five richest men in California, which means among the richest in the country. Multi-multi-billionaire. Only in his 50's. But he'd gotten lung cancer! He was dying rapidly. (Lung cancer is swift and deadly.)

Well, in the words of the song, "all his money won't another minute buy". He confided to my wife (she's the sympathetic type that draws this kind of thing out, and she spent hours with him each day for those weeks) that he just wanted to sit in the park, in the sun, and feed the birds. He told her he would give up all his billions if it could be so. He died a week later.

But are such the rich manipulators, the billionaire financiers, striding above time and space to bring us the New World Order ?
Ecce homo.

-- Runway Cat (runway_cat@hotmail.com), May 05, 1999.

The reason our founding was so unique and anti-entropic was because it provided perhaps the first concrete, workable example (that is, not only theoretical and philosophic) of resistance to the evolutionary and tyrannical dynamic that "a" describes.

Globalism, given the nature of man, is inherently tyrannical in its end result. Technologism in the service of globalism would be the final tyranny.

Whether one is Christian or not, I argue that the "Tower of Babel" enshrines a core truth. The shattering of the tower, the multiplication of languages and the dispersion of the peoples that the story depicts was a great and unexpected mercy, even though it was also rightly experienced as a judgment upon the fundamental human historical project, namely, that man would take God's place.

History (sorry if this sounds melodramatic) is mainly the story of the battle between, using modern terms, globalism and local sovereignty, with local entities in voluntary cooperation with each other.

To put a different face on it, the flourishing of Athens was critically dependent on the small scale of the city (really, just a town by our reckoning). It made the very concept of a "citizen" meaningful. By contrast, globalism reduces citizens to tokens, or, a term more recognizable to us, "polls".

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), May 05, 1999.

Hi Runway, that story is a really good illustration of half my intended point. The other half is that any progress towards one world government which results in a worldwide police state is not evolution but devolution. As I have said before national governments reigning over huge population masses are obsolete. They lack the flexibility and the PRECISION with which to effectively represent micro segments of their constituency. Moreover they are grossly inneficient and wasteful of rescources. The more centralized power becomes the greater the effects of callousness and corruption.

The government seems to live by a double standard in reguards to its own power and that allowed to corporations. The recent breakup of ma Bell is an excellent case in point. This behemoth corporation had achieved such a stranglehold on the telecommunications market that effective competition was impossible. Without competition there was not only lack of incentive to trim excess expenses, but also a total lack of accountability to its customers for the operating cost incurred. And such has behemoth government become.

In my opinion the answer to world problems today is not One World government, or global corporations. What we need is smaller regional governments with near self sufficient local economies and manufacturing bases. a's progression cycle given above, from family to global government, is not a natural progression of man, it is a natural progression and extension of ignorance. As long as mankind allows others to do his thinking for him, elects ruthless tyrants to be his master, and willingly participates in wars of naked agression which serve no one's purpose but the instigator's, then this cycle of stupidity will continue unabated.

We have in our posession the tool with which this cycle can be broken. You are connected to it at this very second.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 05, 1999.

"But are such the rich manipulators, the billionaire financiers, striding above time and space to bring us the New World Order ?"

Yes, the families that trace their blood lines back thousands of years, currently 13 running the show.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), May 06, 1999.

Nik,

NWO...in a way, we've already been there. There's really not much new under our feeble little star.

For all practical purposes, in its time, Rome ruled most of the known world. There were both benefits and ruthless subjugation under this rule. Lasting a thousand years, Rome eventually rotted and collapsed, mostly from within. While all this was going on, art, science, and mathematics marked time at best. Following the collapse of Roman domination, the western world then proceeded to regress for an additional 1000 years.

Will NWO be beneficial, neutral, or dictatorial? My guess is, however it starts out, sooner or later, it will turn bad -- really bad, unimaginably bad. Healthy competition, and only healthy competition produces innovation and, hopefully, an improvement in the lives and actualization of humanity. Government needs healthy competition as much as -- probably more than -- any other human activity. World government is a monopoly, a central monetary scheme is a monopoly, a world military force is a monopoly, and a global "religion" is a monopoly. They will ALL rot and collapse from within, for each sows the inbred seeds of its own destruction. If not so utterly, perniciously foreboding, one could almost laugh upon hearing so-called "free-market thinkers" profess the desirability of monopoly government. IDIOTS...FOOLS!

Carl Sagan once theorized, if not for the 2000-year period of Roman domination and its collapse followed by the Dark Ages and its monoloply of The Church, we might have continued along the scientific momentum of Ancient Greece. We might well be exploring and populating other solar systems by now. (Or we might have already blown ourselves up...)

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), May 06, 1999.

Excellent Nathan. Mr. King was right, The thuth will set you free.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 06, 1999.

Food for thought: some thinkers believe that the Greeks CLEARLY understood both the foundations of the algebra and, more importantly, its impact. Oversimplifying a bit, algebra is arguably THE foundation of Western technology. The idea goes that the Greeks, not entirely prescient, but instinctively, recoiled from the KIND of world that algebraic calculation would create.

Consequently, it doesn't necessarily follow that their path would have led to space exploration, for instance but maybe something quite other.

We joke about ancient Greece because they quarreled with one another and stayed "local" (except for rare occasions where their survival was threatened) but there is something to learn there. Even the Romans couldn't quite absorb them, just as they couldn't absorb the Jews-followers of Jesus.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), May 06, 1999.

Big dog, lol, Maybe I've got some greek in my forgotten bloodline. I despise algebra, it is an utterly inhuman science.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 06, 1999.

BigDog,

Interesting. I can't imagine recoiling from the truth.

Personally, I view the study of mathematics as coming about as close to the uncolored truth as one will likely evetr experience in one's lifetime. Mathematics describes and validates everything knowable in the physical plane. Building upon a few fundamental theorems, mathemetics is sustained upon pure logic. It's pure beauty.

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), May 06, 1999.

Nathan, I feel just the opposite. Mathematics take a thing of wonder and beauty and render it to cold hard data. Without wonder and mystery the human soul cannot thrive.

Sysman posted this on another thread, it's kinda long but worth the read.

How about a pencil to go with that paper... <:)= I am a lead pencil  the ordinary wooden pencil familiar to all boys and girls and adults who can read and write.

Writing is both my vocation and my avocation; that's all I do.

You may wonder why I should write a genealogy. Well, to begin with, my story is interesting. And, next, I am a mystery  more so than a tree or a sunset or even a flash of lightning. But, sadly, I am taken for granted by those who use me, as if I were a mere incident and without background. This supercilious attitude relegates me to the level of the commonplace. This is a species of the grievous error in which mankind cannot too long persist without peril. For, the wise G. K. Chesterton observed, `"We are perishing for want of wonder, not for want of wonders."

I, Pencil, simple though I appear to be, merit your wonder and awe, a claim I shall attempt to prove. In fact, if you can understand me  no, that's too much to ask of anyone  if you can become aware of the miraculousness which I symbolize, you can help save the freedom mankind is so unhappily losing. I have a profound lesson to teach. And I can teach this lesson better than can an automobile or an airplane or a mechanical dishwasher because  well, because I am seemingly so simple.

Simple? Yet, not a single person on the face of this earth knows how to make me. This sounds fantastic, doesn't it? Especially when it is realized that there are about one and one-half billion of my kind produced in the U.S.A. each year.

Pick me up and look me over. What do you see? Not much meets the eye  there's some wood, lacquer, the printed labeling, graphite lead, a bit of metal, and an eraser.

Innumerable Antecedents

Just as you cannot trace your family tree back very far, so is it impossible for me to name and explain all my antecedents. But I would like to suggest enough of them to impress upon you the richness and complexity of my background.

My family tree begins with what in fact is a tree, a cedar of straight grain that grows in Northern California and Oregon. Now contemplate all the saws and trucks and rope and the countless other gear used in harvesting and carting the cedar logs to the railroad siding. Think of all the persons and the numberless skills that went into their fabrication: the mining of ore, the making of steel and its refinement into saws, axes, motors; the growing of hemp and bringing it through all the stages to heavy and strong rope; the logging camps with their beds and mess halls, the cookery and the raising of all the foods. Why, untold thousands of persons had a hand in every cup of coffee the loggers drink!

The logs are shipped to a mill in San Leandro, California. Can you imagine the individuals who make flat cars and rails and railroad engines and who construct and install the communication systems incidental thereto? These legions are among my antecedents.

Consider the millwork in San Leandro. The cedar logs are cut into small, pencil- length slats less than one-fourth of an inch in thickness. These are kiln dried and then tinted for the same reason women put rouge on their faces. People prefer that I look pretty, not a pallid white. The slats are waxed and kiln dried again. How many skills went into the making of the tint and the kilns, into supplying the heat, the light and power, the belts, motors, and all the other things a mill requires? Sweepers in the mill among my ancestors? Yes, and included are the men who poured the concrete for the dam of a Pacific Gas & Electric Company hydroplant which supplies the mill's power!

Don't overlook the ancestors present and distant who have a hand in transporting sixty carloads of slats across the nation.

Once in the pencil factory--$4,000,000 in machinery and building, all capital accumulated by thrifty and saving parents of mine--each slat is given eight grooves by a complex machine, after which another machine lays leads in every other slat, applies glue, and places another slat atop--a lead sandwich, so to speak. Seven brothers and I are mechanically carved from this "wood- clinched'" sandwich.

My "lead'" itself--it contains no lead at all--is complex. The graphite is mined in Ceylon. Consider these miners and those who make their many tools and the makers of the paper sacks in which the graphite is shipped and those who make the string that ties the sacks and those who put them aboard ships and those who make the ships. Even the lighthouse keepers along the way assisted in my birth--and the harbor pilots.

The graphite is mixed with clay from Mississippi in which ammonium hydroxide is used in the refining process. Then wetting agents are added such as sulfonated tallow--animal fats chemically reacted with sulfuric acid. After passing through numerous machines, the mixture finally appears as endless extrusions--as from a sausage grinder--cut to size, dried, and baked for several hours at 1,850 degrees Fahrenheit. To increase their strength and smoothness the leads are then treated with a hot mixture which includes candelilla wax from Mexico, paraffin wax, and hydrogenated natural fats.

My cedar receives six coats of lacquer. Do you know all the ingredients of lacquer? Who would think that the growers of castor beans and the refiners of castor oil are a part of it? They are. Why, even the processes by which the lacquer is made a beautiful yellow involves the skills of more persons than one can enumerate!

Observe the labeling. That's a film formed by applying heat to carbon black mixed with resins. How do you make resins and what, pray, is carbon black?

My bit of metal--the ferrule--is brass. Think of all the persons who mine zinc and copper and those who have the skills to make shiny sheet brass from these products of nature. Those black rings on my ferrule are black nickel. What is black nickel and how is it applied? The complete story of why the center of my ferrule has no black nickel on it would take pages to explain.

Then there's my crowning glory, inelegantly referred to in the trade as "the plug," the part man uses to erase the errors he makes with me. An ingredient called "factice" is what does the erasing. It is a rubber-like product made by reacting rape- seed oil from the Dutch East Indies with sulfur chloride. Rubber, contrary to the common notion, is only for binding purposes. Then, too, there are numerous vulcanizing and accelerating agents. The pumice comes from Italy; and the pigment which gives "the plug" its color is cadmium sulfide.

No One Knows

Does anyone wish to challenge my earlier assertion that no single person on the face of this earth knows how to make me?

Actually, millions of human beings have had a hand in my creation, no one of whom even knows more than a very few of the others. Now, you may say that I go too far in relating the picker of a coffee berry in far off Brazil and food growers elsewhere to my creation; that this is an extreme position. I shall stand by my claim. There isn't a single person in all these millions, including the president of the pencil company, who contributes more than a tiny, infinitesimal bit of know-how. From the standpoint of know-how the only difference between the miner of graphite in Ceylon and the logger in Oregon is in the type of know-how. Neither the miner nor the logger can be dispensed with, any more than can the chemist at the factory or the worker in the oil field--paraffin being a by-product of petroleum.

Here is an astounding fact: Neither the worker in the oil field nor the chemist nor the digger of graphite or clay nor any who mans or makes the ships or trains or trucks nor the one who runs the machine that does the knurling on my bit of metal nor the president of the company performs his singular task because he wants me. Each one wants me less, perhaps, than does a child in the first grade. Indeed, there are some among this vast multitude who never saw a pencil nor would they know how to use one. Their motivation is other than me. Perhaps it is something like this: Each of these millions sees that he can thus exchange his tiny know-how for the goods and services he needs or wants. I may or may not be among these items.

No Master Mind

There is a fact still more astounding: The absence of a master mind, of anyone dictating or forcibly directing these countless actions which bring me into being. No trace of such a person can be found. Instead, we find the Invisible Hand at work. This is the mystery to which I earlier referred.

It has been said that "'only God can make a tree.'" Why do we agree with this? Isn't it because we realize that we ourselves could not make one? Indeed, can we even describe a tree? We cannot, except in superficial terms. We can say, for instance, that a certain molecular configuration manifests itself as a tree. But what mind is there among men that could even record, let alone direct, the constant changes in molecules that transpire in the life span of a tree? Such a feat is utterly unthinkable!

I, Pencil, am a complex combination of miracles: a tree, zinc, copper, graphite, and so on. But to these miracles which manifest themselves in Nature an even more extraordinary miracle has been added: the configuration of creative human energies--millions of tiny know-hows configurating naturally and spontaneously in response to human necessity and desire and in the absence of any human master- minding! Since only God can make a tree, I insist that only God could make me. Man can no more direct these millions of know-hows to bring me into being than he can put molecules together to create a tree.

The above is what I meant when writing, "If you can become aware of the miraculousness which I symbolize, you can help save the freedom mankind is so unhappily losing." For, if one is aware that these know- hows will naturally, yes, automatically, arrange themselves into creative and productive patterns in response to human necessity and demand--that is, in the absence of governmental or any other coercive master-minding  then one will possess an absolutely essential ingredient for freedom: a faith in free people. Freedom is impossible without this faith.

Once government has had a monopoly of a creative activity such, for instance, as the delivery of the mails, most individuals will believe that the mails could not be efficiently delivered by men acting freely. And here is the reason: Each one acknowledges that he himself doesn't know how to do all the things incident to mail delivery. He also recognizes that no other individual could do it. These assumptions are correct. No individual possesses enough know-how to perform a nation's mail delivery any more than any individual possesses enough know-how to make a pencil. Now, in the absence of faith in free people  in the unawareness that millions of tiny know- hows would naturally and miraculously form and cooperate to satisfy this necessity  the individual cannot help but reach the erroneous conclusion that mail can be delivered only by governmental "master- minding."

Testimony Galore

If I, Pencil, were the only item that could offer testimony on what men and women can accomplish when free to try, then those with little faith would have a fair case. However, there is testimony galore; it's all about us and on every hand. Mail delivery is exceedingly simple when compared, for instance, to the making of an automobile or a calculating machine or a grain combine or a milling machine or to tens of thousands of other things. Delivery? Why, in this area where men have been left free to try, they deliver the human voice around the world in less than one second; they deliver an event visually and in motion to any person's home when it is happening; they deliver 150 passengers from Seattle to Baltimore in less than four hours; they deliver gas from Texas to one's range or furnace in New York at unbelievably low rates and without subsidy; they deliver each four pounds of oil from the Persian Gulf to our Eastern Seaboard  halfway around the world  for less money than the government charges for delivering a one-ounce letter across the street!

The lesson I have to teach is this: Leave all creative energies uninhibited. Merely organize society to act in harmony with this lesson. Let society's legal apparatus remove all obstacles the best it can. Permit these creative know-hows freely to flow. Have faith that free men and women will respond to the Invisible Hand. This faith will be confirmed. I, Pencil, seemingly simple though I am, offer the miracle of my creation as testimony that this is a practical faith, as practical as the sun, the rain, a cedar tree, the good earth.

Leonard E. Read

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), May 05, 1999.

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 06, 1999.

Hmm, Dog and Cat again... Look gentlemen, Nik. K, all of you, it comes down to: what do you understand by that term "freedom" ? There are different kinds, most of them fantasies in this world. Are we free of the tyrannies of our bodies ? Are we not in thrall to our possessions ? Don't our familes make demands on our freedom that we find impossible to throw off ? Doesn't religion demand a kind of hegemony over our minds ? Isn't freedom just another word for nothing left to lose ? Your use of this term "freedom" might be seen in some other context as something strictly metaphysical. Remember, Dog, even Athens had slaves. And when Socrates began to speak too "freely" ... well, at least we got the greatest question from him "We go our ways - I to perish, you to live. Which is better, God alone knows"

-- Blue Himalayan (bh@k2.y), May 06, 1999.

Blue--- I love it, Socrates and Janis Joplin. But you aint nothing honey if you aint free. Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benze. My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends. Worked hard all my life time, no help from my friends. So oh Lord won't you buy me, a Mercedes Benze.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 06, 1999.

Blue, of course there are varying levels of freedom, and different people have different comfort zones within the levels. But imagine freedom is a liquid which you are carrying in a glass. It's a large glass, let's say 4 cup capacity. Even if you fill the glass to the rim you still lose some of your freedom sloshing out of the glass as you walk. I think of this lost freedom as the essential's of life, family and morals. It is a crowded sidewalk so you give some of your freedom to this big fella named government to protect your glass from the other travellers. How much do you give him? Well God only ask for 10%, and if that's good enough for him it ought to be more than enough for this government fella. So here you are walking along with your glass of freedom, which still contains about 3 1/2 cups when all of a sudden government sticks a straw in your glass and sucks out a half a cup of your freedom. You're really pissed about this but hey, he's a big guy, you're a little guy, and you'd have probably lost some of the freedom he took anyway bumping into other travellers. A little farther along the path he does it again. You suddenly notice he is doing the same thing to all the other travellers, and he is putting all this freedom into a huge vat, which is now nearly half full. Many of the travellers have lost nearly all their freedom and are pulling governments vat along with ropes. About this time you come to a gunshop.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 06, 1999.

Nik,

My admiration is for mathematics in the abstract, the mathematics of symbolic expression and operation. Perhaps you are at odds with certain applications of mathematics. In that case, mathemetics is just another tool -- like the gun. It can be used by men for good or for ill.

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), May 06, 1999.

a, sorry I didn't get back to you on your U.F.O. post last night. You must have struck a chord in my subconscious because I had one of the most vivid dreams I can remember this morning right before I woke up. I was at an electric power station and the management had gathered everyone into a large conference room for an emergency meeting. The room itself was part of a large one story office complex and three of the walls were of black glass, with a black glass skylight in the roof. About a hundred people were gathered in the room and I noticed a man in a military uniform talking quietly with a lady who I recognized somehow as being the company spokesperson. the people nearest me wee saying there had been an on the job fatality, and that is what the meeting was about. At this point the spokesperson quieted the room and announced that a U.F.O. had attacked and killed three employees working in the field. She also stated that the craft was apparently capable ov dimensional shifts because it would suddenly appear overhead, and then reappear in a different location. As she reached this point there was a flash like lightning on the windows, or like the flash of an arc welder striking. Looking out through the glass wall to the right we could see a pinkish orange diamond shaped object hovering at about 500 ft. and a quarter mile away. From the bottom point of the diamond a weapon was firing at a group of people running down the road toward us. it was slicing them up like a star wars light saber. the beam of the weapon looked like a cross between a laser and a lightning bolt. It was straight like a laser but electric blue and ragged or diffuse around the edges. chunks of pavement were exploding out of the road everywhere it touched. As the few survivors approached the building we were in the UFO popped out of existence and dissapeared. Looking up I saw that it had reappeared directly above us and was preparing to fire through the skylight into the crowded room. I ran for the back of the room which had a solid roof, just as the bolt hit the crowd. I was screaming for people to get out from under the skylight but it was too late, the room was total carnage. At this point my alarm clock went off. Just thought I'd share that, it was just too weird to keep to myself.

I don't know what to think about UFO's and alien species. I have worked outdoors all my life, much of it working nights, and have never seen anything I could label as definitely being a UFO. Personally I would imagine there are other lifeforms in the Universe, and some of them are probably intelligent. Many of them could be millions of years older than our race, as we are the new kids on the block. I don't see any reason why we should assume they would be benevolent either. All of nature is based on the evil garden concept, a concept I'm sure is universal. Any race advanced enough to have conquered lightspeed or timewarp might find us interesting in bug collecting kind of way, or might decide we were disposable if they needed our planet for some reason, but I doubt they would institute contact with a dangerous and primitive species.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 06, 1999.

Nik - they might just want to keep us as a scientific study of their roots, in a parallel kind of way. Rather like humans using chimps to understand humans. Sagan got quite depressed about not hearing anything on the arrays. When he did a look back to his 1970's series, he suggested that maybe the reason we hadn't heard anything was because intelligence is actually counter-survival; once a certain level of technology is reached, the world where it is reached, is doomed. This was before the iron curtain fell, BTW, and while nuclear war was still largely considered non-survivable.

-- Tricia the Canuck (jayles@telusplanet.net), May 07, 1999.

Tricia, I think Sagan was probably correct in a large percentage of cases, still some species must make it past that point. My own opinion on the SETI program is they are listening with the wrong type of equipment. Any species advanced enough to achieve interstellar travel would have also developed faster than light communications which would make radio waves obsolete. They need a tachyon reciever, or an esp monitor. I wonder if radio shack carries them?

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 07, 1999.

Nikoli, they didn't the last time I checked ;-)

I think the esp kind is supposed to be being developed now. I know the Soviets were working on something of the kind, but I've heard no word on their successes (or otherwise). Gives a whole new meaning to the words 'thought police', though, doesn't it?

-- Tricia the Canuck (jayles@telusplanet.net), May 07, 1999.

LOL, that was pretty good Tricia, I bet Janet Reno has a team on it right now.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 07, 1999.

This article is virtual proof that what is a dream today is reality tomorrow. Please read the description of the weapon I dreamed of a few post above, then read this article.

Ray Gun Freezes Victims Without Causing Injury By Max Glaskin www.sunday-times.co.uk 5-9-99

Set your phasers to stun. The Ministry of Defence is looking at a "freeze ray" that may be able to stop people in their tracks without harming them. A prototype of the weapon has yet to be built but laboratory trials of the concept show that it could be ideal for peacekeeping forces or for police facing armed criminals. The head of the MoD's novel weapons team and a colleague from the Defence Evaluation Research Agency in Farnborough recently met Eric Herr, the American inventor who has patented the weapon. The MoD refuses to comment on the meeting, held in San Diego, California, but a spokeswoman says: "We keep our eyes open for anything and everything that may be of interest." The approach from the MoD came out of the blue, says Herr, vice- president of HSV Technologies. "We were surprised that they were interested." The freeze ray works by zapping its victim with an electric current. It uses an ultraviolet laser to create a beam of light particles, called photons. These ionise a path through the air so that it can conduct electricity as if it were a wire leading to the target up to 100 metres away. Then a current of 25 milliamps at a frequency of 100Hz is directed down it to the target. When it hits a person, the current interferes with the tiny electrical charges that control muscles and forces them to contract, stopping the person from moving. Vital, involuntary muscles, like the heart and the diaphragm, are not affected because they are protected by a greater thickness of body tissue. Tasers, weapons that freeze muscles, are already on sale in America but they have to be pressed against an assailant's skin to work and can only be used once - then they have to be recharged. Herr has subjected himself to Taser shocks in the course of his research. His weapon, however, will be effective from a distance and could even work around corners if mirrors are used. Being remote from its target, it could also have a constant power source. The device relies on technology that is only just within the grasp of scientists so Herr has commissioned Dr Richard Scheps at the University of California San Diego to prove the principle is right. "His research created ionised paths that conducted electricity for a significant part of the theoretical maximum range," says Herr. Now he is trying to raise up to $500,000 to build a full working prototype. "Our first prototype would be too large to be convenient for law enforcers or the military," says Herr. "It would be about the size of a small suitcase. However, a new laser diode just developed in Poland has the potential to reduce the size of our weapon to that of a flashlight." Although the electric charge will not injure a person, there is still a question about the safety of the laser needed to create the "wire". It escapes recent legislation aimed at curbing battlefield lasers that blind by injuring the retina but, according to Robert Hill of the National Radiological Protection Board in Didcot, Oxfordshire, it could lead to eye damage, cutting the corneas of whoever is in its path. However, Herr claims it should only cause "irritation and swelling rather than any lasting damage". According to Dr Nick Lewer of the peace studies department at Bradford University, non-lethal weapons like freeze rays would not be practicable in combat. "A recent report by the US Marines says that up to three soldiers are needed to capture and hold a single opponent if he is not to be injured or killed," says Lewer. "The device is more likely to be used by peacekeeping units or by the military police where restraint is the aim." Herr came up with the idea for the freeze ray after seeing the problems police officers face in trying to apprehend criminals. If the MoD decides to fund the weapon's development, it could make life safer for British police. The freeze-ray technology may also have other uses. Herr says it could be tuned to wavelengths that destroy the microchips of motor cars, immobilising them in an instant. His patent also mentions that a lethal variation could be built by increasing the current to more than 250 milliamps to disturb the rhythms of the heart. Herr is not the first to pursue the idea of a freeze ray. In 1924 the respected scientist Harry Grindell-Matthews established a laboratory in Harewood Place, London, where he tried to build the first such machine, which he called the "ray of hope". But the technology of the day was not sophisticated enough. Herr reckons that, with modern lasers, he can build a prototype within a year.

END ARTICLE. I have lots of dreams which come true, have had since I was a young child. Usually it will be something like this, where something concrete will be embedded within a scenario which is unrelated. Sometimes the entire dream rolls out as a verbatim performance, though that is rare. There is also no way to tell which dreams are prophetic and which are just normal dreams, or at least I haven't found a way yet. The point of this is I have been having dreams for the last six or seven months which involve attacks from the air on our power plants, usually by fighter bombers. Just thought I'd toss that out there.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 11, 1999.

Nik: Dreams, UFOs, and synchronicity are all related somehow. Post modern quantum theory is confirming this. Check out some of these links:

http://www.qedcorp.com/Q/ChiaoBell.html

http://www.hia.com/pcr/mmqguide.html

http://www.hia.com/pcr/pcr.html

http://www.hia.com/pcr/mts.html

http://www.stardrive.org/title.shtml

http://www.hia.com/pcr/test1.html

-- a (a@a.a), May 11, 1999.

Nik, I too have had prophetic dreams since childhood -- as well as many dreams and quite wide-awake experiences as vivid as the dream you described. Sometimes I dream about technologies that are new to me. Or events that could certainly happen. I'm still waiting to see if any of them turn up in the world. I tend to get "chaos tags" at the end of dreams where something in that chaos will be concrete -- will be a sort of premonition of something that hits the news in a week or month, something unique enough to be recognizeable if I wrote the dreams down and so remembered them. Most of my dreams and visions though seem to be along the lines of "alternate realities" or "archetypes." Which can be pretty brain scrambling to try and make sense of.

I have a funny story about a hypnotic "progression" I did back in 1990 or so, that involved China and a one-world government and aliens, that I would bore everyone with for humor if it weren't so long. Suffice to say, the world we have here is different but probably just as... er... "interesting."

P.S. Nik are you coming to the Fort Worth TX get-together on the 22nd?

PJ in TX

-- PJ Gaenir (fire@firedocs.com), May 12, 1999.

PJ, I have read as much as I could get my hands on about Dr. Chet Snow and his studies on hypnotic progression. I would be interested in hearing about your experience. You couldn't possibly bore me with your story, that is if/when you have the spare time to email me the tidbits. Much appreciated.

-- OR (orwelliator@biosys.net), May 12, 1999.

a --- that is really very funny. If your antipathy towards Christianity isn't too great, you might want to participate in an off-site "heavy thinkers" forum with a few of us (Christianity not a requirement, BTW). "Protection guaranteed".

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), May 12, 1999.

--a and PJ. First a. I checked out the links you gave, they were pretty interesting. Most of it went over my head as I have never studied Physics and didn't know the definitions of a lot of the terms they were using or any understanding of the source papers they cited. The one segment that did catch my eye was on tunneling. Not im a mathematical sense, but it closely relates to my own theories of space time as it relates to prophetic dreams.

If you look at your entire lifespan it constitutes an unbroken thread through time. (for ease of explanation I'm going to leave space out of this) That is your physical self exist continously, without break, for your entire lifespan. Your mental state however does not exist in a continuous thread, it is broken into periods of consciousness and subconsciousness by the sleep cycle. Of course the two are linked so they are actually the same thread. I represent the thread and the sleep cycle as a wave form. Visualize a series of pipes laid out on the ground, but not connected, with a rope strung through them. One end of the rope is birth, the other death. At each junction where the pipes do not connect pull alternating loops of rope to the right and left of the pipes, these represent periods of wakefulness and sleep. Looking at this model we have constructed you can see that it is impossible to see down the length of the pipe while awake or asleep, but there is a point in the transitional curve where you can see down the pipe, although with an increasingly distorted view as the curve accellerates. This is a transitional mental state between sleep and awareness, which is not a natural state for the human body. Neither the conscious mind nor the subconcious is engaged and if this condition last more than a few seconds the brain will seek input from some source. Where that input comes from is wholly dependent on which direction the mind is pointed at the transitional point. Most people look back, down the pipe which leads to their past, hence dreams of past events or loved ones lost. Another signifigant portion will not look down the pipes at all, but look outside the pipes at alternate realities existing in other dimensions. They pass through these like a ghost for only a few seconds without physical form, or feel they are falling down a bottomless pit because the brain is terrified of that which it does not understand. But some people, a few of millions, will actively seek that path which leads to the future. I believe if more people knew it existed they could train their minds over time to be ready when the opportunity presented itself. I believe the really great prophets, like Edgar Casey, were able to achieve this trance state while keeping the conscious mind operating. Oh, and there is a distinct difference between synchronicity and prescient dreams. they are not anything alike, completely different animals.

Switching gears I thought the Dilbert cartoon was cute, but the dog destroys his own logic. When he starts in on computers being built of progressively smaller electrical components he fails to realize the computer didn't build the components. Man did. The same argument holds true for man. While we are composed of individual cells, minerals, fluids etc., we didn't create ourselves. God did. I hold little respect anymore for Darwins theory of evolution. There are too many missing links, and there is the matter of genetic encoding in DNA, which is completely beyond any explanation of random chance. NO, every lifeform on this planet was designed, and designed by an intelligence the human race will never match. And then it was given life.

PJ, hopefully the answer I gave to a answers some of your questions. I will try to be at the meeting, but I am working on going back to school right now and some conflict may arise. I won't be able to say for sure for another week or so.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 12, 1999.

DOH!! I completely forgot, I would love to hear that regression story too, and it sounds like your dreams are closely matching mine.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 12, 1999.

Nik,

Imagine 5,000 years. Then imagine 5,000,000 years. Then imagine 5,000,000,000 years. Now imagine what could happen in 5,000,000,000. God created evolution.

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), May 12, 1999.

Nathan, if evolution exist, no doubt it was invented by God. I just haven't seen any credible evidence it even exist. Modern archeology is consistently finding that when one version of a species vanishes it is instantly replaced by another version. There is no overlap period in the existence of the two, nor are there partially evolved skeletons which would show that the change occured over a period of centuries or millenium. Add to that the fundamental theory that all life evolved from single celled organisms, which lacked brains, or any sensory input, and the whole thing becomes a farce. How does a brainless protoplasm decide it wants to become a shrimp? Or a Shark? Or an elephant? Once it has reached this impossible decison how is it put into effect? I want to have wings so I can fly, so have all my anscestors. Even with a thinking brain we can't make it happen as a species or as an individual. If a man truly thinks, then he cannot disbelieve in God.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 13, 1999.

Nik,

Thinking, or wishing, or yearning doesn't enter into it. DNA doesn't think, it mutates...instantly. Many mutations are benign. The mutation either succeeds in the current environment or it doesn't. If it doesn't, the mutated strain quickly dies off. The mutation can be dramatic and succeed, but as a rule, successful mutations are extremely minor in their overall change to the organism, extremely suttee.

Our closest relative is the chimpanzee. The active components of our respective DNAs differ from the chimpanzee's by only 0.4% Analysis of active DNA sequences reveal that we are 99.6% chimpanzee, or, if you prefer, in terms of DNA the chimpanzee is 99.6% "human". This is still a substantial difference, for one human differs from another in DNA terms by less than 0.1%, but it does lend credence to the argument that we share some remote common ancestor.

The archeological record shows a series of hominid forms. Some of the major delineations include Australopithecus, Java, Neanderthal, and Cro-Magnon (us). The transitions are mostly there, we just haven't found them all, if they still exist. Some of the record may be at the bottom of the ocean, under a lake, or just plain covered up with stuff.

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), May 13, 1999.

Scratch "extremely suttee", make that "extremely subtle". Well maybe most mutations are "extremely suttee", but I'd have to check up it. :o)

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), May 13, 1999.

Scratch "extremely suttee", make that "extremely subtle". Well maybe most mutations are "extremely suttee", but I'd have to check up on it. :o)

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), May 13, 1999.

Nathan. My sister is an Archeologist and I am well aware of the extinct variations of the ape family which have been found. But that theory still doesn't hold water. In order for a DNA mutation to be responsible for the evolution of man from ape a simultaneous mutation of a sustainable breeding population would be required. Any shift of a single male or female of more than even a miniscule percentage would result in either the mutation being reabsorbed into the species, shunned as an outcast, or rendered unable to reproduce with unmutated members of the species, as man cannot crossbreed with his nearest kin, Chimpanzees, now. Likewise just a single breeding pair wouldn't do it either. Without a viable breeding gene pool the inbreeding would result in extinction of the mutation in short order. For the evolution theory to hold water at all would require that genetic mutations be so small as to be practically unoticeable, species wide simultaneously. This would result not in distinct categories of humanoid but in a slow but steady mutation of the species which would be readily apparent in the fossil records.

What are the odds that after a couple of hundred thousand years several dozen Neanderthals simultaneously delivered modern human children, and didn't bash their heads on rocks at birth? Pretty near nil, I'd say. The much more plausible explanation is that the creator used a laddering concept with DNA much like Bruce Beache's concept of embedded processor programming. This being where you take an off the shelf processor which almost does what you want it too, and add or delete a few lines of code to make it match your application. If you then figure in the timing of the rise and fall of the predominant life forms on the planet then any thought of coincidence becomes ludicrous. First sea plankton established a breathable atmosphere, then dinosaurs laid down a fossil fuel base for man to use during his rise to a independent technological level. Only after the planet had been terraformed into a somewhat benign garden was mankind introduced. The trail laid by the various ape species and sub- humans was a red herring from the creator. If God had created mankind with no relatives it would have been clear from the outset that we were an artificial construct, which would have resulted in his having to constantly babysit a spoiled and lethargic species. He left us instead to mature as a species for 100,000 years or so and begin developing language, civilization, and rudimentary technology before making his presence known. When he did deliver his first message to mankind he couched it in terms that would not be too shocking to a primitive people. This was updated quite a bit with the delivery of the New Testament, and I think will soon be updated again. By any measure you apply the hand of a Creator is clearly visible in the history of this planet.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 13, 1999.

Nik, Nate: Here's a reprint from a post I made a while back. A Readers Digest version of Post-modern QT for you non-physicists out there :)

To E Coli: been there done that with Vallee. His view of the Visitors as a "control system" by higher intelligence is intriguing, but it stops short of explaining where the Visitors come from. Check out Dr. Jack Sarfatti's post-quantum explanation of reality and consciousness at http://www.qedcorp.com/book/index.htm In a nutshell, he and a group of multidisciplined collaborators (Vallee is on his mailing list) have devised a new physics that goes beyond conventional quantum theory and actually predicts such things as remote viewing (RV), ESP and retro-kinesis (RK) (RK is the scientifically "proven" effect (though subtle) of mind over matter. John Walker, founder of Autodesk, Inc. and co-author of AutoCAD software, is heavily involved in RK research and has a page that allows you to conduct a realtime RK experiment over the web at http://www.fourmilab.ch/rpkp/ The mechanism seems to be that information is being transmitted back in time by ourselves (human race) in the future, via the same type of interaction that gives rise to life itself. It's referred to as "back-action" and has to do with the cytoskeleton present in all living cells. Microtubles in the cytoskeleton are tubes lined with countless protein dimers that are switched into one of two configurations based on the spin of one electron. They act as "nanoswitches" in a quantum computer that is driven by quantum standing waves in the ordered water molecules filling the tubes. They have just recently come up with equations that define how a moment of consciousness is created and are very close to being able to design a conscious computer! It is interesting to note that his physics is closely related to Eastern religions in that intelligence is not something that is restricted to the higher animals, but is present in all life forms.

The Y2K, Revelation, and the Torah Code thread was also pretty interesting I think.

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=000LM3

-- a (a@a.a), May 13, 1999.

Nik: I think that God exists, but I will argue with your definition of God. I don't have to entertain a vision of a huge alpha male grabbing up a handful of clay, shaping it in his image then breathing life into it (although if you read between the lines, this is an exact description of organic evolution!). Evolution is a matter of fact. It is responsible for the modern pig, which can no longer successfully mate with the wild boar. Same with the horse and mule.

I think the problem is that the concept of 1000's of years is meaningless to a human, much less the time scale of 100,000's that we see the advent of man unfold under. 1,000,000's for the animal kingdom, and 1,000,000,000's for organic life itself (cells). Incomprehensible. Except to God.

There is no doubt that the fossil record is incomplete. But to me, I think it is miraculous that it is as revealing as it is. Evolution is a theory, and like all theories, it will eventually be replaced with a closer approximation.

-- a (a@a.a), May 13, 1999.

Non Illegitimi Carborundum Est

-- Romulus (et@tu.brutus), May 13, 1999.

"If words were birds we'd be covered in white". Roger Grimsby to Howard Cosell Nik, as so often happens once you say good-bye you can't shut the fuck up.

Just dropped by to say nah-nah-nah-nah-nah. I was wrong though. I said a 4. Looks like a bump in the road.

To all my fans, no need to respond. I don't lurk here.

-- Jimmy Bagga Doughnuts (jim1bets@worldnet.att.net), May 13, 1999.

a-- you are completely wrong on both of the examples you give, both are the result of man's breeding of animals to achieve a desired result, and not evolution. Just as man has bred the domestic and prolific species of dogs from the wolf line he has also bred mules and domestic pigs. Human intervention in the natural order of genetic progression is not evolution. It is intervention. Any Texas boy can tell you that a mule , being a cross between a donkey and a horse, is sterile. Which only re-enforces my point about a minor shift in DNA being unsustainable without a viable gene pool. I don't know where you get your information about pigs, but it is incorrect. We have wild boars here where I live, which we trap, and they routinely crossbreed with domestic pigs. I can see that along the line domestic pigs could be bred to a point of DNA mismatch with wild boars that this would no longer ber the case, but again this is human intervention, not evolution.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 13, 1999.

Romulus---well you can kiss mine too.

-- Nikoli krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 13, 1999.

Nik: I misworded that post. I meant to use the pig example to disprove your claim that species can't mutate and reproduce simultaneously. Should read:

"Evolution is a matter of fact. The same type of genetic selection is responsible for the modern pig, which can no longer successfully mate with the wild boar. Same with the horse and mule."

The point is that evolution works on time scales so vast we can barely understand the underlying forces at work.

-- a (a@a.a), May 13, 1999.

a--No matter how you word it your examples are still the same. What you are failing to understand is that no matter what so called evolution has delivered it was all pre-programmed into the DNA of the species in question. I have no doubt that when genetics are fully understood the technicians will be astounded to discover that apes were reverse engineered from man.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 13, 1999.

I challenge any person reading this thread to give even one example of a species of animal which has exhibited a form of evolution in the recorded history of mankind. 10,000 years, Just one. The game animals we hunt have not developed armor plate, the fish we catch have not developed hook proof jaws, the vegetables we eat have not developed poisons to ward us off. Evolution is bullshit, pure and simple. Untold species have gone extinct during the reign of man, without so much as a whimper of evolutional defense. God is out there, he created all of this, and he is holding us accountable for our actions. Think about it.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 13, 1999.

Antibiotic resistant bacteria.

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), May 13, 1999.

Nathan, incorrectomundo my friend. The bacteria exemplify survival of the fitest, not evolution. The antibiotic kills off all generations of the bacteria which are directly exposed, while leaving those indirecdtly exposed inoculated against repeat attacks. This is a normal funtion of the immune system of any species, not evolution. All vulnerable bacteria have been killed off and only the partially affected remnant remain as breeding stock. In a true case of evolution the DNA makeup of the bacteria would have morphed into a proactive aggressive defense system.

Consider the development of a single cell organism into a lobster. You yourself have stated previously that DNA doesn't THINK, it just mutates instantaneously. How did that single cell organism develop claws, eyes, taste, legs, A BRAIN, all cordinated, without thought? This is what I am talking about when I say evolution. I'm not talking about species getting larger or smaller body wise due to breeding. Or different colors. I'm talking about fundamental change in an organism such as developing flight or breathing air instead of water. Or developing an intelligent mind. From a single cell organism. With no brain. With no sensory input. A single strand of human DNA would encircle the planet if unraveled. It contains more data than a IBM supercomputer can store.Think about it.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 13, 1999.

OK. How about this. We know natural selection is real, look at the peppered moth example. But since only the ratio of black/white moths changed, it is not an example of evolution. However, natural selection over a long period of time (10-100,000 years) will result in a change of the species biological makeup (DNA). Can I prove it? No, but the scientific evidence is compelling. And I think that it is just as wonderfully mysterious as your explaination of God.

Can you prove Creationism?

-- a (a@a.a), May 13, 1999.

Ah HA! Gotcha.

A single strand of DNA (from one human cell) would stand 5 feet tall unraveled.

All of the DNA in the body would stretch to the sun and back 5 times. (93 million miles x 5)

Payback is hell Nik...

-- a (a@a.a), May 13, 1999.

--a, you may have me indeed, I took that quote from a discovery channell program I was watching a few nights ago. I have no backup to confirm it. Are you guys catching my drift though? I don't have the gift of explaining things. The point I am trying to make is that a single celled organism could not possibly have evolved into anything without prior embedded coding in its DNA. A simple concept, yet so hard to express.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 13, 1999.

a--Can I Prove Creationism? It should be self evident by now. forget that crap they have been teaching you in school, use some common sense. A few hundred years ago they still taught that the Earth was Flat. The Earth was the center of the Universe. Modern Genetics is going to show without a doubt, that the human animal is a totally artificial construct. We do not represent the end line of an ape- humanoid evolution, but the reverse. There is no possible way that single celled organisms evolved into the billions of species of plant and animal life that have existed on this planet. Not without outside intelligence and engineering. It is flatly impossible. Once you come to understand that basic fact, the truth is self evident.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 14, 1999.

Nik,

You must believe, then, that in order for an antibiotic resistant strain of bacteria to arise, the genetic variation for resistance already existed in the total population of all bacteria. Where did this variation come from? Was it always there, for billions of years, or did it arise as an opportunistic mutation in the population? If you assert that it was always there, then we should be able to create another antibiotic to kill that population as well. OK, so that didn't work, now we have another resistant strain. How many times will this sequence of events repeat? How much existing variation is there in the bacterial population?

I picked the bacteria member of the animal kingdom to meet your challenge for a reason. Bacteria pass from one generation to the next at a rate hundreds of thousands of times faster than humans and the other higher animals. With this organism, we have a chance of glimpsing mutation and natural selection within human time-frames. Obvious genetic changes take too long, in human terms, to be readily apparent. Yet, the cumulative genetic progression over tens or hundreds of thousands of generations in the higher organisms is unmistakable, compared to the first generation.

Two primary mechanisms explain the effect of evolution. Random mutation, which produces new genetic variations, which may or may not prove beneficial to the species in its current niche, and natural selection, which allows for some level of adaptability of a population to manifest itself within its current genetic repertoire. If environmental changes occur too rapidly, for example a sudden change in the composition of the atmosphere or the ascendance of a competing organism (man for example) many species will not be able to adapt and will extinguish.

The bacteria example provided likely operates in both modes. Some facet of adaptation may consist of natural selection permitting those individuals succeeding due to a minor variation in their DNA compared to the rest of the population. I believe this is the argument you are currently making. But random mutation may also be producing individuals that are more adept at resisting the introduction of a noxious element to the bacteria's environment.

If you are inclined to only use genetic variation to explain natural selection, how do you explain the variation in the first place? Is God this sloppy? Is he trying to confuse us? Experimentally, you may reduce your bacterial population to a single individual. Would you not agree that this single individual has but ONE genetic makeup? Allow this single individual to divide. Expose this nascent colony to sunlight, cold, variations in food supply, chemical non-organic contaminants, and wait of few thousand generations. I believe you will be surprised when the colony's DNA makeup is re-sampled, showing much variation across individual members.

Faith is a wonderful thing, it really is. I suppose God could have created the universe for us and the animals and plants we share the planet with, and placed an incomplete fossil on this soggy rock for us to find and puzzle over. He could have created for us the illusion of the passing of eons in order to confuse us. He could have changed the laws of physics, the speed of light, and the rate of decay of isotopes and then changed these laws again, 6000, or 10000, or 100000 years ago in order to throw us off the path of discovering our origins, the nature of our existence, and our understanding of the physical universe. If so, why the elaborate charade? I would like to believe the Creator is less deceptive than that. I would like to believe there are constant principles guiding the underlying structure and order of both this physical plane and the spiritual.

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), May 14, 1999.

Nathan, I can sympathize with your looking for a scientific constant to explain the universe, but you are looking in the wrong direction. Any person who has studied the Bible understands that God exist outside of Space-Time, and is not bound by the laws of Physics. You keep dodging my basic question of how a single cell, brainless organism could possibly evolve legs, arms, claws, teeth, eyes, lungs, a brain. How does such an organism even concieve of the uses of such devices, let alone their construction? There is your answer in the question. I denied the existence of God for years, even after being raised in the church with a baptist preacher as my grandfather. Arthur C. Clark did the best job of explaining the paradox of modern science I have seen in 2001. The monolith. Mankind was killing itself to find out the use of it, when they should have been asking the how of it. As in our previous discussion on mathematics, modern science is busily anylizing every brush stroke of the painting, while completely ignoring the signature in the corner.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 14, 1999.

Nik,

I most certainly do not deny the existence of a Creator. I have never denied the existence of a Creator. And I likely never will deny the existence of a Creator. However, I do find the concept of Creationism contradictory, groundless, and unnecessarily self-limiting.

I will address you latest question:

How a single cell, brainless organism could possibly evolve legs, arms, claws, teeth, eyes, lungs, a brain. How does such an organism even conceive of the uses of such devices, let alone their construction?

Life is DNA. DNA exists in an environment. The environment is constantly changing. DNA is constantly changing. These are the facts. Here is the theory: Random changes in DNA allow for adaptation to the current environment. Changes in environment allow for opportunistic niches of current genetic configurations. The constant change in environment plus genetic variation provides a complete system for competitive evolution. The Creator created this system. Successful lifeforms flourish. Unsuccessful lifeforms perish. Any random genetic advancement allows for a marginally superior ability to flourish. Any random genetic digression allows for a tendency to perish. Any vacant environmental niche allows for a marginally superior ability to flourish. The disappearance of any environmental niche allows for a tendency to perish.

The most rudimentary and random form of a membrane (a minor, random advancement) may allow for a marginally superior ability to flourish. The most rudimentary and random beginnings of a nervous system may allow for a marginally superior ability to flourish. Advancements towards higher forms tend to flourish at the expense of lower forms. Unexploited niches allow all levels of advancement to flourish in the absence of any competition. These concepts may be extended to legs, arms, etc. Now, add time spans beyond our comprehension and untold successive generations to the mix and one result is the lifeform writing this message.

I'm not saying that all of this is totally explainable. This is merely a rudimentary explanation of the mechanisms of earth-bound, DNA-based evolution. How did the initial spark of DNA-based life come to be? What conditions were required for the spark to ignite? Within what parameters lie the conditions to initiate and sustain life? How much gravity, heat, light, pressure is too much or too little to be hospitable to DNA-based life? What raw materials are needed for organized life to evolve? Is there life elsewhere in the universe? Is this life DNA-based? Are higher lifeforms possible without DNA?

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), May 14, 1999.

Nathan asked if a higher life forms are possible without DNA. I believe the answer is yes. DNA/RNA provide the basic functions of life: presistent storage of information, and replication of information. Sound familiar ?

If y2k doesn't bring it all down, electronic forms of life and intelligence will 'evolve' within 50 years. They'll likely assimilate humans completely (we'll probably acquiesce in our own assimilation, as we have done already to a large degree, and end up like the Chinese silkworms, no longer found in the wild, that cannot exist outside captivity).

-- Blue Himalayan (bh@k2.y), May 14, 1999.

Nik: You said

"How does a single cell, brainless organism could possibly evolve legs, arms, claws, teeth, eyes, lungs, a brain. "

The same way a single cell develops into an adult human. The cell goes through all stages of life on earth, from a wormlike structure, to a jawless fish (complete with gills), to a reptilian looking form (complete with tail), to a more mammalian shape, and finally to a baby. I ask you: How does it do this? The DNA does not explain it. DNA is merely a blueprint. The physical laws of the natural world also do not adequately explain it. Back-action (information tunneling from the future via a Bohm pilot wave) may explain it more completely. But science will only tell us the HOW. Never the WHY.

So don't get me wrong, I also believe in a Creator. But one man's post quantum physics is another man's Christ. :)

Blue: in the links I posted above, they talk about building a consious computer chip (intelligence of an amoeba) in a few years. But I don't think they factored y2k in their plans...

-- a (a@a.a), May 14, 1999.

--a, You make my point for me. Thank you. In order for a single celled organism to evolve into the millions of complex species scientist say it has would require that either the origional DNA encoding of the organism contained the blueprints already, or that they were transmitted to the individual organisms which then simultaneously pursued their designated goals. This is not evolution, it is creation. The explanation of Evolutionary theory given by Nathan is fundamentally flawed in that it does not reflect this basic truth. Unguided cellular growth and mutation has a name, it's called cancer, not evolution.

Since we can look at single celled organisms today which have never evolved into anything even after all these billions of years, and see that they contain only their base dna coding, and we can look at the fossil record which clearly indicates sudden shifts in the designs of all species, it becomes clear that what is happening is that the DNA is recieving external output from some source, or that entirely modified species are being dellivered whole and functional to the planet in sustainable breeding populations while the reproductive ability of old versions are terminated. Personally I favor the last theory as it most closely fits the archeological record.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 14, 1999.

But you did not answer the question. How does a baby form? Is the creator sneaking into the woman's womb when she isn't looking and altering the cellular structures? Of course not. It's autonomous.

And there is no reason to think otherwise in the case of Evolution.

-- a (a@a.a), May 14, 1999.

--a, I'm sorry a, I thought I had answered that. Obviously a baby is formed by cellular division which follows a PREPROGRAMMED DNA sequence. the closest thing to evolutionary theory which has been evidenced in human beings is birth defects. As in when children are born missing limbs, without brains, etc. And these result from deletion or alteration of the preprogrammed genetic code. I don't know how to make it any plainer. Unguided mutation is not viable. Therefore Evolution is bull. For any alteration of Genetic code to result in an improvement of the species, or even to be a viable feature, requires intelligent input. Period.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 14, 1999.

For advanced lifeforms over sufficient time and enough generations, unguided genetic mutation is viable. The wallaby in Hawaii can no longer breed with the wallaby in Australia, even though the wallaby in Hawaii came from Australia. They're not the same species anymore. This entirely new species took only a couple hundred years to evolve. The two do not share the same gene pool, yet both species are separately viable. There are hundreds of examples of this. God didn't have to come down from Heaven and change anything. No aliens replaced the wallaby newly imported to Hawaii by 17th century seamen with a different species in order to trick or confuse us. No secret code from the future needed to descend upon the Hawaiian Islands in order for this new species to arise. No miracle was involved except your ordinary, everyday fundamentally flawed evolution.

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), May 14, 1999.

Nathan, again I have to disagree. The example you give is devolution. Anytime you segregate a small number of any species form the overall gene pool the ineviteable result is inbreeding with subsequent damage to the DNA chain. This, if continued over a period of time results not in a new species, but a branch of the old species which is so genetically damaged it is unable to replicate with members of the origional gene pool. Now If one of those wallaby's has grown gills, learned to talk, or developed a funtioning set of helicopter blades, I will be glad to concede the point, but this straw man just isn't going to do it.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 14, 1999.

Nik,

I guess we are at an impasse. The only parting words I wish to leave you with are not to take ANY dogma at face value -- political, social, religious, scientific, or economic. I prefer to look at the various possibilities, check the evidence, face the facts, and THEN take my leaps of faith, not the other way around. To each his own, I guess.

Take care, my friend.

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), May 14, 1999.

--a and Nathan. I am not trying to be combative on this issue, and I doubt very much if there is any chance at all I will change your beliefs. Still I hold with the basic common sense of my theories and assure you my views will not be changed either. So let us agree to disagree as I tire of debating this subject, and have presented my case as best I am able. And -a, there is one documented case of God reaching into the womb and altering directly a human egg. The virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 14, 1999.

Nikoli,

What the hell's your problem? That was meant as a clarification by an earlier encouragement. Stercus!

-- Romulus (et@tu.brutus), May 14, 1999.

Arggghhh. I just wrote huge post and lost the whole thing. Oh well, here's a summary.

Nik, you're doing a great job. You are well-supported right now by quite a number of scientists who are putting a full-court press on Darwinism.

Check out Darwin's Black Box by Michael Behe and Evolution: A Theory in Crisis by Michael Denton. Both men are scientists; Behe is a biochemist, Denton a paleontologist, I think. Neither is a "creationist", i.e. one who holds to a literal six day creation some 6-10,000 years ago, although both believe in a Creator. What they agree on is that Darwinism is a mess scientifically.

Behe's basic argument is that the individual facets of various biochemical processes are "irreducibly complex", that is, that they have myriad facets that all must operate together in perfect synchronicity or the process doesn't work at all. His argument is that such processes could not have evolved by the small, incremental changes espoused by Darwinian evolution because the process cannot be reduced to individual steps; either the whole works or it doesn't work. Period. Biological organisms have myriad such processes, all working together in an irreducibly complex fashion. Their existence simply cannot be explained by Darwinism.

Denton, on the other hand, argues from the fossil record that Darwinism cannot be sustained. Darwin admitted that the fossil record did not support his theory of natural selection, but he believe that eventually the evidence would be found. It hasn't. Not even close. Again and again, species appear, fully formed, in the fossil record with no evidence of transitional forms. Indeed, the examples given so far by Nathan and "a" are all instances of "micro-evolution"; there simply isn't any evidence for "macro-evolution", that is, evolution across species boundaries.

While neither man is a "creationist" in the sense of believing in a literal six day creation some 6000-10,000 years ago, both believe in a Creator. So, Nathan, "creationism" and Darwinism are not the only two options for a thinking Theist.

There is no scientific justification in any of the known laws of chemistry or physics to allow a complex, information-bearing structure like the DNA strand to exist through spontaneous means.

Obviously, just because science cannot explain the origins of life (least of all Darwinism, which is a bad joke right now scientifically) does not prove that a Creator must have done it. That's bad logic. But at the very least scientists should be a lot more humble concerning origins. And they should stop foisting as fact a scientific theory that is, at best, tottering.

Check out Dr. Hugh Ross's "Reasons to Believe" Web site at www.reasons.org.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), May 15, 1999.

David: Reread my posts. I do not say that Evolutionary theory is complete. There must be another force at work, and for lack of a better term, we can agree to call it God. As I said before, evolution theory will be replaced by a closer approximation in due time. But right now there is no other explanation that fits the evidence as well. Period.

-- a (a@a.a), May 15, 1999.

Thanks David. I think this subject is of paramount importance, because in high school we were taught evolution, which totally undermined my faith in God. Only as I reached Maturity of age and began thinking for myself did I realize that he theory was fundamentally flawed, and we had en masse been lied to as children. I firmly believe the theory of evolution is the main reason for the decline in a belief in God by our children, as it was in my case. This little piece of subterfuge must be laid to rest so tyhat people can make an informed and unbiased decision reguarding faith.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), May 15, 1999.