This may seem redundant to an existing thread, but I wanted to encourage study of the Universal Catechism and at the same time see what other Catholics and our seperated brethern from Protestant communities think about the Just War principle as applied to Kosovo.

So...What do you think???

-- ubi (ubi@petros.com), May 13, 1999

Answers

Dear Ubi

I am not a expert in Theology but in my opinion I believe the war was not needed simply due to the fact that it could have been avoided because there was talk of "peace inforcers" wich could have stoped the various atrocieties and could have prevented a war.

-- E.H.Weiss (weisse@bmts.com), May 14, 1999.

I believe we have a moral obligation to stop violence when we become aware of it. So many sat back and thought about what was happening in Europe during Hitler's madness.

Hopefully we have learned from this experience and know we are a small global village. Son Of Thnder sometimes are not nice guys.

Peace And Well Being.

Jean Bouchard

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 14, 1999.

Now, tell me please, why are the fighting in Kosovo? What is so "righteuos or just" about it?

-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), May 15, 1999.

Dear Jamey

In my opinion the war in Kosovo is not justified or needed because the war has not stoped the atrocities it has only killed lives mainly enemy soldiers and some mistakes wich have killed civilians. It has also done nothing to overthrow the President or (Prime minister) of Kosovo.

-- E.H.Weiss (weisse@bmts.com), May 15, 1999.

I don't believe that our bombing of Kosovo meets the high standards set for a "just war." Just Wars are defensive in nature and they are carried out with a clear set of goals in mind with a high chance of achieving victory. The outcome should yield a situation more beneficial to ALL parties involved. And Just Wars do not target non-combatants. Most people would say that our policy fails these stipulations on all counts. If you want to learn about the war some more, go to this link and read the columns.

-- jon carson (joncarson@yahoo.com), May 15, 1999.

There's only one "just war" and it has not occured yet!

-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), May 15, 1999.

Does anyone know if the Pope has commented on whether or not it is a just war? I would trust his opinion more than everyone's speculation.

-- JR (petro53613@aol.com), May 16, 1999.

1. serbian moslems (aka ethnic albanians). 2. find themselves in the majority in a serbian state known as kosova.3. they decide to form a moslem republic. 4. they form the kla (kosova liberation army. 5. which undertakes an armed revolt against 6. the central government (the serbs) whose capital is belgrade.7. the serbs dispatch troops to put down 8. an armed insurrection in their country. 9. the moslems, who were more prolific than the christians, 10 who had been burning catholic and protestant churches and 11. killing priest, ministers and other christians 12 started to get some retribution from the central government so 12. they went to the u.n. 13 as they did in croatia and 14. in bosnia to 15. get their t.s. card punched but 16. the u.n. wasn't listening as 17. they were sick of croatia and bosnia and 18. they were reluctant to see a 19. moslem republic on 20. european soil. so 21 the moslem serbs aka (ethnic albanians) played the 22. p.r. game with the united states and brittain who 23. wanted to feel good and 24. demonstrate to the rest of the moslems nations of the world who 24 control the oil reserves necessary to run the european economy that 25, we were not playing favorites so 26. being the heavy hitters of n.a.t.o. (north atlantic treaty organization) and desirous of 27. taking attention away from a. monica lewinski, b. the chinese connection and c. northern ireland 27. bill clinton and tony blair 28. decided that a world wide police force was 29. necessary to teach the bad boy of yougoslavia that 30. he should not act to 31. protect the catholic and protestant interest in his country 32. because it did not make good p.r. and 33. refugees streaming to the border make 34 good copy in the news medica and talk shows. but now 35 after serveral errors causing collatteral damage, (timothy mc veigh was called a murderer) we bombed buildings busses and people 36, not to mention the chinese embassy (sorry about that) 37 we also bombed the bridges over the danube river 38, causing the economies of other nations of europe to stagnate as 39. half of the usable shipping is east and 40 of the usable shipping is west of the bombed bridges blocking the river. 40 not to mention the losses of tourism to 41 greece, macedonia, turkey, italy, poland, etc. hope you all get the drift as your tax dollars and your donations will be used to try to mitigate some of the suffering that is going on and getting worse. remember the golden rule "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". bombs anyone???

-- juan (declined@a0l.com), May 16, 1999.

According to CCC #2309, ALL the following must exist - "At one and the same time:

- The damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave and certain.

I believe the actions of Milosevic meet this criteria for a just war.

- All other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective.

Certainly ineffective. Argueable as to whether ALL other means had been tried. Perhaps having Russia negotiate before bombing, but I'll say that this criteria also exists.

- There must be some serious prospect of success.

Airwars do not help when trying to end bullies killing people house, by house. Broadcasting to the world that we would not use ground troops allows Milosevic to ignore ground invasion defenses and use troops in effecient deployment for ethnic cleansing. EVERY US doctrine of war has been ignored, and the worst errors of Vietnam, WWII, and Korea have been repeated and magnified. The way we chose to fight this has little chance of success. FAILS TO MEET THIS TEST FOR JUST WAR.

- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluationg this condition.

We are risking world war. We have inadvertently killed civilians, the same ones we are protecting(?). The way we are waging this war is militarily stupid, and creates many opportunities to cause worse sins against humanity than those Milosevic was committing. FAILS TO MEET TEST.

My read is that according to the moral principles of the Church, as given to us in the gift of the CCC, this is not a just war. I'll be voting for Alan Keyes, he sounds as though he formed his policy position by reading the CCC.

Shalom.

-- ubi (ubi@petros.com), May 17, 1999.

from Catechism of the Catholic Church, English translation copyright 1994 -- Libreria Editrice Vaticana -- Imprimi Potest Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger:

#2309 "The strict conditions for 'legitimate defense by military force' require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

-- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

-- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

-- there must be serious prospects of success;

-- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the 'just war' doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgements of those who have responsibility for the common good."

-- tony brent (ajbrent@mich.com), May 18, 1999.

Tony,

In a representative democracy, ultimate responsibility for determining whether a war serves or harms the common good lies with "we the people".

-- ubi (ubi@petros.com), May 19, 1999.

where can i find the statistics to know the general opinion of americans about the kosovo war?

did clinton ask "we the people" before engaging in it?

my country right or wrong?

ENRIQUE

-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), May 19, 1999.

Dear Enrique,

Unfortunately, I'm not certain that any reliable polls determined the attitudes and opinions of the American people before the "war" began. Polls have become such a tool of politics that very few people trust their validity anymore. Be that as it may, if I recall correctly, most of the opinion polls just prior to the NATO bombings indicated that Americans were pretty much against NATO plans to bomb. It wasn't until photos and news stories about Serb atrocities were published that opinions swayed in favor of the bombings.

-- David (David@matt6:33.com), May 19, 1999.

it may be somewhat long...read my may 16 post...due to a shortage of food attributable to a blockade, for the common good, union troops were denied adequate rations by the confeds. the worst was andersonville. due to a blockade insufficient food was available to adequately feed his countrymen, for the common good, adolf hitler slaughtered some 14 million people, of which 6 million were jew. 17th century philosipher, john locke wrote, "government exists to protect the property of the individual." somewhere in the gospels it say something about the wrong caused by someone stronger taking from the weak.

-- juan (declined@aol.com), May 20, 1999.

"In a representative democracy, ultimate responsibility for determining whether a war serves or harms the common good lies with "we the people".

-- ubi "

Ubi,

We the people do not even hold the right to bear arms fully any longer, so what power do we the people truly have in this world?

Curiuos to your line of reason,

-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), May 21, 1999.