$150 handguns

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http://www.hi-pointfirearms.com $150 autoloaders;nohing I'd want to use,but assuming the worst,a great investment value,think of all those polys that'll want a gun if tshtf

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), May 24, 1999

Answers

Just my opinion, Zoobie, but I think folks just now preparing have a need for food, water, and a means to cook that food MUCH more than they have a need to defend their food.

$150 buys a WHOLE lot of food and water, and if enough people have food, water, and a means to cook same, there would be absolutely NO need for arms.

Again, this is MY opinion. I'm sure I'll get flamed plenty for it, but I don't care. I have absolutely NO intention of buying a gun. I'd rather spend that money on food and water for my neighbors.

Anita

-- Anita Spooner (spoonera@msn.com), May 24, 1999.


that's what the world needs during a crises,guns!you make me sick!

-- outraged (guns@re.bad), May 24, 1999.

sure,Anita,but some people probably WOULD feel better knowing that they have a fire-arm(and we would hope the skill and knowledge to use it safely)food is probably more important than tampons or wood matches,that doesn't mean people shouldn't be able to buy them.this is a prep forum and guns are a part of many(mine included)people's fallback planning.let's hear it for the freedom to choose.plus the manufacturer's guns are several hundred dollars less than the average,again,nothing I'd want.peace.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), May 24, 1999.

There will be guns, make no mistake. The only question is whether you will have one.

A couple months ago, somebody posted here an account of the Hurricane Andrew aftermath. People were looting everything, even their own neighbors. Those who escaped looting were the ones who sat on their front porches, holding a shotgun, smiling pleasantly as people passed them by. No need to get nasty, a simple show of force can be sufficient.

Friend of mine has a Makarov (9mm short, autoloader) for about $150, and is very happy with it. I've shot it, nice little gun.

By the way, I'm getting enough food to feed neighbors, too. But there's no way I can feed everybody.

-- Shimrod (shimrod@lycosmail.com), May 24, 1999.


hey,outraged,I notice you're exercising your freedom of speech,maintained and guaranteed by the 2nd ammendment.Enjoy it,nice,isn't it

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), May 24, 1999.


zoobie,

IMHO a HiPoint would be worse than no gun at all for many people. An experienced shooter could possibly do OK with one if that's all that came to hand but I _would not_ put one in the hands of a beginner. A decent used revolver wouldn't cost much more than that and would be a vast increase in safety for a new shooter. Can't address the reliability aspect of this particular make- no experience with it.

As for the other stuff- first, prepare as you see fit. If you decide to buy a gun for the first time or you have little experience with firearms, get good training and be safe be safe be safe. The Second Amendment says what it says no matter who doesn't like it, and it enumerates another INDIVIDUAL right, period. You don't like it, repeal it or leave it alone. And quit whining.

-- Lee (lplapin@hotmail.com), May 24, 1999.


Hi-points are garbage. They jam more than they fire. They can't hold a decent grouping either. Stick with name brands: S&W, Ruger, Colt, SIG, Glock, etc...

The Yugo was a cheap little car too...

watchin' it rain...

The Dog

-- Dog (cmpennell@juno.com), May 24, 1999.


What has become of a nation of people that violently argue against guns/ownership when it is same that secured their freedom (to whine about them)?? Hey, who is going to help your defenseless butt when the mob finds out you have food and no means to defend yourself? "there is nothing more uncommon than common sense!" Maybe this will help, the only reason we as Americans are still a (free) people, is that we still have arms to defend ourselves from TYRANNY of politicians and tyrants who trample our Constitution daily! They fear only one thing: educated citizens with guns that know who the enemy is. When purchasing a weapon, remember that it might need to save you or your families life some day, so if you buy quality you never remember the price and when you buy junk you never forget!

-- bob (rgt350@aol.com), May 24, 1999.

Hi boys and girls, Sunday, May 23, a local homeowner caught a burgler IN his house. Held the burgler AT GUNPOINT with one of those mean, nasty GUNS untill the cops got there. Can you imagine the nerve of that guy????

-- .50 caliber (80thIl@Inf.1862), May 24, 1999.

Lee, as one pro-gunner to another, take a look at what you said:

"The Second Amendment says what it says no matter who doesn't like it, and it enumerates another INDIVIDUAL right, period. You don't like it, repeal it or leave it alone."

Some anti's would like to do just that. However, even if it were repealed, it would change nothing. The 2nd Amendment (or any other, for that matter) doesn't grant rights, it guarantees them - big difference. The right to bear arms is an unalienable (inherent) right, one that can't be given up, just not exercised if that's what a person chooses, Sharon Stupid Stone's drivel this week notwithstanding.

-- klm (klm@nwhre.not), May 24, 1999.



zoobie - I go along with Lee and the Dog - hipoints are investment cast cr*p. A used .38 special, or a used pump shotgun will run in the same price range, and with a little care and maintenance will undoubtedly be a much better tool under any circumstances.

I once got a dealer of those hi-point things upset at a gun show, because all of his literature said "why pay more" in big letters at the top...so I answered the question for him...:-)

Arlin

[who actually has a preference for .45's for self defense and .44 mag for hunting.]

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), May 24, 1999.


Like they say about motorcycle helmets, if you've got a $10 head, get a $10 helmet.

Some things are NOT worth skimping on, and a gun is one of them. You're better off without one than with one that doesn't work when you need it. If you can't spend much, look for a quality used revolver, and get a couple of knowledgeable opinions before buying.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), May 24, 1999.


Wow Arlin , you can hunt with a .44 mag pistol?!? Zoobie, I think Arlin is right about his stance with high-points and that he Prefers a .45 for defense. You only get 1 life right? If a crazed person is after you and not willing to reason, he may not know he's been even hit with a .22 round. A .44 round will generally knock someone down almost anywhere you shoot him. The crazier they are, the closer to the center of the body you aim, otherwise, try to wound if your into being Karmically correct. As that new alternative song goes...Jesus or a Gun.

-- Feller (feller@wanna.help), May 24, 1999.

Uh, no. Don't ever try to wound. Cops don't do that, neither should you. If you're not in imminent mortal danger, you're not justified in pulling the trigger at all. If you are, you'd better be serious about putting the guy down. Shooting him in the leg still has a pretty good chance of killing him, especially if 911 isn't quite as responsive as usual...but what you really want to do is stop him, right now. Go for center mass, you're less likely to miss and less likely to get shot while he bleeds to death.

-- Shimrod (shimrod@lycosmail.com), May 24, 1999.

Feller,

yeah, the hunting isn't the problem, the patience to let the blankety blank deer get within 30-40 yards (about the max reasonable range for somebody with my skill and eyesight for hunting purposes with a .44 mag revolver) - now THAT'S a problem! :-) know what I mean?

FWIW I don't recommend .44 mag for self-defense simply because unless you're built like an NFL linebacker, the recoil is going to make getting off an *aimed* second shot take longer than it probably should in self-defense situations.

Just my 2 cents' worth, Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), May 25, 1999.



There are two rifles at Walmart which I understand from reading Massad Ayoob and others are pretty good: the Ruger 10/20 and the Mossberg 500.

Do those of you who are experts feel that these inexpensive rifles are too shoddily made to be worthwhile?

Or should I take it that the price of a worthwhile handgun starts at twice the price of a worthwhile rifle?

-- GA Russell (garussell@russellga.com), May 25, 1999.


GA,

Exactly.

-- R. Wright (blaklodg@hotmail.com), May 25, 1999.


Hi GA,

okay first off the Mossberg is a shotgun, and a good one at that! don't let the price fool you, if what you are looking for is a shotgun then the Mossberg is an entirely reasonable choice. A shotgun is an entirely reasonable choice for home defense, in many situations.

The Ruger 10/22 is a good little .22 - but it uses a proprietary magazine (that's the device that feeds the cartridges one at a time to be fired). Because of that, if you buy the 10/22 BE ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN to buy several spare magazines for it. On the other hand you DO NOT repeat DO NOT want to be forced to defend yourself with a .22 - .22's are for squirrels and rabbits...unless of course you're being attacked by squirrels and rabbits! :-)

The important thing here is that if you buy a firearm - ANY firearm - you *must* get proper instruction in how to handle and use it safely and effectively. I recommend you contact the NRA, either through their website at http://www.nra.org/ or by calling them at (703) 267-1000, ask to talk to their training department and then ask the training folks to recommend a list of certified instructors in your area.

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), May 25, 1999.


I have found that .44 specials are more controllable for subsequent shots on target. Use them all the time in my .44 Mag

-- Bruce (bwblanchard@ems.att.com), May 25, 1999.

Thanks for the advice!

By the way, I mentioned to friends at work today Nik's idea that if China is going to send the nukes over, they will do it when Clinton is out of town - and the Clintons are going on vacation this weekend. The point has been reached where I work that *no one* thought the scenario is ridiculous!

-- GA Russell (garussell@russellga.com), May 25, 1999.


oh, all right to wander completely off topic here:

Bruce - have you noticed any problems getting JHP to expand properly? I'd heard that .44 Spec didn't have the required energy to get consistant expansion.

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), May 25, 1999.


They make an after market Mag. for 10/22 I Have Two Larger Volume Mags.

-- && (&&@&&.&), May 25, 1999.

Guns are horrible, offensive, disgusting things, until YOU are in a situation due to no fault of your own, and you wish you had one.

Better to educate yourself now and hope you never need it, than to wish you had one if you ever do have the need.

Hope you never have to say you wish you woulda' listened. Don't say I didn't tell you so.

-- Clyde (clydeblalock@hotmail.com), May 25, 1999.


Hi Arlen, I am using a S&W 44 Mag Revolver, 8" barrel revolver. Haven't had to deal with feed problems. I have no experience with autoloaders. My other revolver is a mod 19 S&W .357 and I do use .357 jhp but do a lot of practice with .38 spec. I have also used 44 Russian in the .44 Mag but like the spec more. BTW, I have found .44 mag medium factory loads a little easier on my rather arthritic wrist.

-- Bruce (bwblanchard@ems.att.com), May 25, 1999.

Arlin, You won't get an argument on the HiPoint PISTOLS!!

HOWEVER, my experience with the 9mm carbine is that it is a nice lil piece for under 100m shooting. After Mrs Driver and I exercised ALL of the mags that came with ours, they fed fine, grouped disgustingly fine out of the box (one needed 2 clicks down 2 clicks left but that was out of the box). the groups were sufficiently close that if I'm trying for the center of the head, the target dies. Center of mass on these means that the target will, eventually, fall over (the drawbacks of the 9mm).

NOW, about those things that they call handguns. I don't think i'd have one if they gave it to me AND a Gold Eagle. They aren't even accurate enough to throw. I suspect it might come apart in mid air and I'd miss what I was throwing it at!!

Chuck

Who STILL likes his Glock 22 best.

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), May 25, 1999.


I just wanted to mention that the Colt Combat Commander .45 Auto I have has a compensator attached to the end of it and It kicks very little when you fire off the whole clip-load. A compensator can be purchased at a gun show, while some compensators are built into the gun itself. It can make a major difference in how you feel about unloading your next clip during target practice. A definite confidence builder for a .45 auto owner.

-- Feller (feller@wanna.help), May 25, 1999.

The Ruger 10/22 is a great little gun for converting crows into fertilizer. On those high capacity magazines, some of the 50 rounders are junk, at least the early Mitchells were. The Ramlines seem to be less prone to jamb.

-- Ken Seger (kenseger@earthlink.net), May 25, 1999.

Bruce - I've got the Ruger Super Redhawk with the 7&1/2 inch barrel - I guess I'd just avoided the .44 special ammo after some stuff I'd read about it. Maybe I'll have to give it a try!

Chuck - I have to admit you're the first person I know who has actually used one of those carbines. Interesting that they're that much better than the handguns...unfortunately my bride-to-be probably wont let me bump that up on the list of supplies we still need to get for our y2k preps...at least not until we finish getting ammo for the firearms we already own. *sigh*

Arlin

-- Arlin H. Adams (ahadams@ix.netcom.com), May 25, 1999.


My suggestion for a first handgun would be a .357 Magnum. You can use .38 Special ammo in it for more control and less kick as you first begin to familiarize yourself with it, then move up to the .357 ammo when you feel comfortable. I would NEVER recomend a semiautomatic as a first handgun, as they are more complicated to learn, and while many models will rarely jam, it would truly suck to have it happen the one time in your lifetime that you might actually have to depend on it to save your life.

With all the recent talk of stricter gun control laws, I have decided to finally go ahead and buy that AR15 I've always wanted while they are still legal to buy. Does anyone have an opinion of Bushmaster (in particular the "Shorty AK") ?

-- Online2Much (ready_for_y2k@mindspring.com), May 25, 1999.


Talking about inexpensive (not cheap) weaponry for defense, look no further that the Ruger autoloader pistols. For between $250 and $350 you will have a RELIABLE comfortable auto pistol that will give you years of dependable service. I own a Ruger P90, .45 and I wouldn't trade for it. It is accurate as a friend of mine's blueprinted 1911 that he has spent over $1500 on, and the magazines are cheap too.

If you are of a smaller stature, check out the new P95 and P97, in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. They are smaller overall than the P89 and P90 which are full size pistols.

No I do not get kickbacks from Ruger, I am just sold on good, honest "American" quality weaponry.

BTW, the Ruger 10/22 rifle is probably the BEST .22 rifle on the market, bar none. You can pick one up new for about $300, and used for $200.

Regarding the Mossberg shotgun... Buy one, they are quality...

Arlin, as far as I am concerned, the .45 ACP is the ultimate defense round. I totally agree with you. I would rather use a 30-30 for hunting though....

watchin' the master clean his pistol...

The Dog

-- Dog (cmpennell@juno.com), May 25, 1999.


klm,

I know what I said (about repealing the Second Amendment) and I meant exactly that. If the majority of the people in this country (or the putative majority anyway) want to trash the Constitution, let'em be up front about it and stop nibbling around the edges. That's why I said the amendment ENUMERATED an individual right. That's also why I said they should repeal it or leave it alone. Either get the show on the road or ring down the curtain.

Ref. later discussion:

We started off talking about handguns and seem to have meandered afield a bit. The Ruger 10-22 is a great little rimfire at a most reasonable price. Do indeed get a couple of spare magazines, not for quick-change stuff but because since they are detachable you might loose one. Put a decent 1"-tube 4X scope on it and leave off the Hollywood stuff (barrel shrouds, folding stocks, flash suppressors). The Mossberg 500 is a good shotgun at a reasonable price. I dislike not being able to get easy access to the magazine tube for cleaning- that's about the only drawback (the milspec Model 590 solves this problem).

Do not count on a .22 for self defense (experts excluded, under limited circumstances). You can't necessarily substitute a rifle or shotgun for a handgun, since you can't holster a long gun or manage it with one hand if the other hand is occupied (with a flashlight, for instance). Depends on your circumstances- you'll have to make your own decisions. Think things through carefully and leave the Rambo fantasies where they belong.

And for short range pest control, a good quality .177 air rifle (the barrel-cocking kind) will be cheaper to keep than a .22 though the acquisition will be about as expensive up front. There's also less worry about overpenetration and ricochets.

-- Lee (lplapin@hotmail.com), May 25, 1999.


Lee, they (benjamin Franklin/Sherman) also make a .22 phneumatic pumping air rifle with pointed pellets for 100$. 8 pumps will send a pellet deeply embedded into a 2 by 4 at medium range. It is the same price as the .177 calibre. They also make a .20 calibre for the same price. Don't mess with the air cartidge type. Phneumatic keeps you free to only have to purchase pellets. Dangerous at 450 - or + yards.

Sincerly, Feller

-- Feller (feller@wanna.help), May 25, 1999.


Re airguns:

a good place to get advice is the Airgun Forum http://www.airgunletter.net/forum/forum.html

Benjamin/Sheradan (now owned by Crosman) are good choices for pump-ups. They can be further improved by an air-smith named Tim McMurry http://www.mindspring.com/~airguns/

Barrel cocking airguns are also an option (no multiple pumps), but require good technique to get optimum accuracy, as they recoil when the piston is released. Point of impact and group size will vary with how you hold them. They also require 'airgun-rated' scopes to keep from vibrating the reticle (crosshair) loose from the two-way snap.

Custom work on spring guns (barrel cockers) is available from Tim McMurry http://www.mindspring.com/~airguns/ and others listed on Airgun forum

A good distributer of various airguns that I've delt with is Golden Toller Guns http://www.freeyellow.com:8080/members6/goldentoller/

Finally, centerfire revolvers can use pellet-firing adapters for inexpensive practice and maybe rat control short range: Convert-a-pell http://www.netm.com/mall/defiance/convert.htm

Take care Jon S

-- Jon S (jstockler@aol.com), May 26, 1999.


well,guess I started somthin' here!like I said,I'd never shoot one of those things,I'm a glock man

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), May 27, 1999.

HiPoint 9mm carbines--

I have read all the "they are garbage/crap--cheap materials, jam, inaccurate, etc." posts by people who obviously have never owned or shot one. For $150 new they are very good weapons: -- they rarely jam (less than my semi-auto MP-5), -- they are very accurate out to 100 yards (the limit for a 9mm cartridge) -- to cost $150 they are made of cheaper materials and are not indestructable -- but, they have a lifetime gaurantee (pretty much no-questions- asked) -- they are great plinkers

Would I choose one for my "10 years in the boonies, survivalist, when th sh*t hits the fan" primary weapon--NO!

However, I do use one for a dependable, fun, accurate pistol-calibre plinker.

And the HiPoint is just fine fine for home defense--especailly when, like mine, it is fittted with a cheap laser sight and small combat flashlight.

-- rkd (rkd99-2@verizon.net), January 21, 2004.


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