What are the Ten Commandments according to the rcc?

-- Kenneth (bulldawg1@hotmail.com), June 06, 1999

Answers

You can find them in Exodus 20:1-18 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21.

-- Br. Rich S.F.O. (repsfo@prodigy.net), June 06, 1999.

Why don't you just give them to me,from official rcc doctrine?

-- kenneth (bulldawg1@hotmail.com), June 06, 1999.

Let me see,the second biblical commandment states that Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,or any likeness of any thing that is heaven above,or that is in the earth beneath,or that is in the water under the earth.Now why is this commandment nonexistant in the catholic "version"?Look at number 10 in the biblical commandments,it says,Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house,thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife,nor his maidservent,nor his ox,nor his ass,nor anything that is thy neighbor's.Now in order for the rcc to still have ten commandments,they took thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife out of the biblical #10 commandment and made it seperatly,unto #9.Pretty deceptive,the rcc's teaching just don't add up to the Word of God.If a person does not study the Word,and compare what he is being taught to the Word,it is very easy to be deceived.Study the Word,open your mind.There is a LOT of deception that looks and sounds like the Word,with scripture mixed in and ever so slightly changed so if you do not SEEK the truth you will be fooled.Remember satan comes as an angel of light,not as a terrible beast,it's going to sound and look good,but it is DEATH.Now i know that someone will come back with a real good sounding answer to this,so let me say in advance,The HOLY BIBLE does not lie,it is the truth,so compare your pope made doctrine to the Word of God,that's the only thing you need to do to see through this.

-- kenneth (bulldawg1@hotmail.com), June 06, 1999.

I do agree that there is a bit of deception here and it started with the way you asked your question. You seem to forget the debt that you owe the Catholic Church. Since it was the Catholic Church that made it possible for you to have the Bible that you are now able to mis-interpret. You seem to forget that the original Hebrew does not have any paragraph or line numbers so one must look to history to determine which parts are combined under which commandments. For there is nothing in the Scriptures themselves that groups them into the 1st and 2nd and so on. Could you please point out where in the Scriptures it says this is the first commandment this is the second commandment, etc.

-- Br. Rich S.F.O. (repsfo@prodigy.net), June 07, 1999.

fantastic answer, bro. Rich! Who, where and when invented the word decalogue (ten words)?

no doubt this is really good forum if you want to learn things!

ENRIQUE

-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), June 07, 1999.

Thank you Br. Rich for your detailed answer. I'd just like to add on that, as long as the commandments are correct & not in exact numeric order, the real essence should be obeying them, rather than number them, for when we are tempted in life, we're not tempted in order of commandments, temptations come at random. If I'm wrong, please do correct me.

-- Mucha Matambanadzo (chumielobb@yahoo.com), June 07, 1999.

I owe the catholic church nothing,God gave us the commandments,you change them.You think you can change the Word to suit your own selves,using your false logic,why is each book of the bible where it is,just chance i guess.The commandments were given by God,in the order and way He wanted us to have them.You take away,change the Words so you can deceive people.Look at the real commandments,The first 4 relate to God the last 6 to man.Why is this you suppose being you claim it doesn't matter.The message is clear God comes first.You have completely removed one and replaced it with one that was included in the 10th.There is no doubt that you manipulate the Words of the Bible to so you can add mans teachings to it.The pope has no God given authority to add anything or take anything away from the Bible.To say he does is a flat out lie.You are saying that God made a mistake and didn't include everything we need.You are fond of saying protestants follow solo scripture,hey you got me,i do follow scripture,what do you follow?

-- kenneth (bulldawg1@hotmail.com), June 07, 1999.

CHRIST!

-- Br. Rich S.F.O. (repsfo@prodigy.net), June 07, 1999.

LOL Brother Rich. You had me going on that one. When I first read your post, I thought you were using the Lord's Name in vain. I thought, rather inappropriate for a member of the clergy also ironic on a thread dealing with the 10 commandments. Then I thought maybe someone was posting in your name in an attempt to be funny. Then I re-read the post before yours and realized you were simply, emphatically stating in response to a question that it is CHRIST that you follow.

Got a chuckle from my confusion :-))

-- David (David@matt6:33.com), June 07, 1999.

Kenneth,

I was taken aback with your statement of ' I owe nothing to The Catholic Church." Not to admonish you but rather to point out when a community offers you love kindness shelter dialogue a sholder to rest on patience understanding guidance perimeters and one does not say thank you. Then I see that individual as ungratefull and ungracious. Tiem to grow up.

Jean B.

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.netj), June 08, 1999.

"debt to the RCC"

Does catholicism teach to pay homage to the church?

Or, should i say does catholicism teach that a person must recieve a sign or seal in acknowledgeing the fact that she changed the sabbath?

"In recognition to the RCC and it's leaders all must rest on sunday and observe the sabbath that she has invented"...............why does this remind me of a story in the book of Daniel concerning Nebuchadnezzar? Is there a mystery to be solved here?

-- Michael(non-catholic) (mdroe@erinet.com), June 08, 1999.

It is unfortunate that many who claim to follow Scripture don't seem to understand it. Maybe this is why the first Pope of the Christian Church said that "first of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (2Peter 1:20-21). Indeed, Peter continues that false prophets would arise (maybe in the fifteenth century onward?) who were once "bought" by Christ (2:1) and knew Christ as "Lord and Savior" (2:20) but who would bring in destructive heresies which would eventually bring swift destruction to them.

Or maybe this is what Peter was talking about when he said that "there are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures" (2Peter 3:16).

The Commandments are clearly summed up by Christ. "'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?' Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and the greatest commandment. And the second commandment is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hand on these two commandments" (Matt 22:36-40).

As to the changing of the Sabbath, Christ was Lord over the Sabbath and could change it. The topic of the Sabbath was a great source contention between Jesus and the scribes and Pharisees. Jesus clearly indicated to them that the Sabbath was meant for man not vice versa (Mark 2:27). Christ's Church instituted changes in disciplines as well as defining doctrine after Christ's ascension with His full authority and that of the Holy Spirit's (Acts 15:28-29). The Church is the Bride of Christ (2Cor 11:2; Eph 5:21-32; Rev 22:17) and His Mystical Body (1Cor 12:1-11; Eph 1:18-23) and act in union with Him. For the Scriptures refer to the Church in exact terms as the "PILLAR and FOUNDATION of the truth" (1Tim 3:15). The Church cannot err. If the Church teaches false doctrine then Scripture is wrong in describing the Church as a pillar. A pillar is something that supports and maintains something else (in this case truth). She (the Bride) has been promised by Jesus that She cannot teach falsely and would never be overcome by evil (Matt 16:18-19).

The Bride changed the Sabbath to Sunday in honor of her Husband. This is the day Christ arose from the dead to bring us life and the day the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost (see John 20:1). This is clear in that the Early Christians had their worship services on Sunday, the first day of the week (Acts 20:7; 1Cor 16:2). Even Paul, who would go to the Jewish services on Saturday to talk to the Jews about Christ, made it clear that Saturday worship was no longer obligatory. "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration, or a Sabbath day" (Col 2:16). Paul warned the Galations of this very thing: "You are observing special days and months and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you" (Gal 4:9). Christ is the end of the Jewish Law (Rom 10:4; Eph 2:13- 16). Thus Catholics observe the Sabbath on the Lord's Day, Sunday(Rev 1:10). As noted above, this is what the "pillar and foundation" of truth teaches.

-- Jorge (jtrujillo7203@hotmail.com), June 20, 1999.

in one of the postings above i read:

Let me see,the second biblical commandment states that Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image,or any likeness of any thing that is heaven above,or that is in the earth beneath,or that is in the water under the earth.Now why is this commandment nonexistant in the catholic "version"?Look at number 10 in the biblical

Poor Moses putting two cherubim on top of the arc of the covenant!!! why didn't he protest: Lord it goes against your second commandment? (Ex 28,18)

Did the Lord order Solomon to do something similar? (2K 6,23)

did these two obey or disobey God's law?

ENRIQUE

-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), June 20, 1999.

I think you are a little confused about who the church is,and did they worship the cheribums,as you do mary?

-- kenneth (bulldawg1@hotmail.com), June 23, 1999.

Kenneth. do you honestly think that catholics worship Mary as the eternal creator of the universe, worth of praise and love from all people as we do with YAHWEH? he is the only one we recognize as the ONE GOD, and no human, however saint he or she may be, can recieve the adoration due Him.

By the way you didn't answer my question about Moses and Solomon.

ENRIQUE

-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), June 24, 1999.

Hey kenneth,

One of those commandments that you claim to love so much is "Thou shalt not bear false witness against your neighbor." Unless you have decided that Catholics aren't your neighbors then perhaps you can 'fess up to your own lying about our beliefs.

Does it sound harsh for me to call you a liar? Well, here's the way I look at it. Anti-Catholics like you have for a long time been able to knock Catholics over with a feather, claiming that the Church teaches that pope is God or that we should worship Mary. Unfortunately too many Catholics just didn't know how to respond to those charges. Well times are a'changing, my friend. We're not just going to roll over and let you spread slanderous lies. So it's time to call a spade a spade. You are a liar, in violation of the commandments of God.

To dispel the charge that you are a liar you must do two things:

1) Show us documented proof that the papal mitre has the words that you allege are printed there.

2) Show us in any official document of the Church where the Catholic Church says that Catholics are to give to Mary the same veneration reserved for God Himself.

If you cannot do those two things (and you can't) then you are a liar.

But if you confess this sin, God will forgive you. And if you are so gracious as to admit your sin to us too, then we'll also forgive you. Then perhaps we can have a constructive and charitable dialogue about our differences.

Waiting for your answers to the two point above or (better yet) your confession.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), June 24, 1999.

Let me ask you something,are you a complete idiot?The rcc perverts the Word of God,that is a fact.Why don't you prove all this stuff about mary,purgatory and all this other crap you insert into God's Word.Let me ask you something,does the words hail mary mean anything to you?

-- kenneth (bulldawg1@hotmail.com), June 24, 1999.

You're right Kenneth.

Those naughty Catholics have done it again. They honor those holy creatures of God and should pay more attention to Scripture and not follow Israel's advice. While on his deathbed, Israel prayed to God and an angel in the same breath: "The [true] God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, The [true] God who has been shepherding me during all my existence until this day, THE ANGEL who has been recovering me from all calamity, BLESS THE BOYS, And let my name be called upon them and the name of my fathers, Abraham and Isaac, And let them increase to a multitude in the midst of the earth" (Gen 48:15-16). Since Israel specifically addresses an angel in prayer, he must "mistakenly" think that angels can intercede for God's people when prayed to. And that they are given golden incense vessels "to offer it with the prayers of the holy ones upon the golden altar that was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense ascended from the hand of the angel with the prayers of the holy ones before God" (Rev 8:3-4; 8:3; Tob 12:12). Boy is Israel (and John the Apostle) wrong in attributing prayers to angels!

Or maybe, Catholics should not show honor to God's holy creatures like Joshua did: "To this he said: 'No, but I - as prince of the army of Yahweh I have now come.' With that Joshua fell on his face to the earth and prostrated himself and said to him: 'What is my lord saying to his servant?' In turn the prince of the army of Yahweh said to Joshua: 'Draw your sandals from off your feet, because the place on which you are standing is holy.' At once Joshua did so" (Joshua 5:14- 15; see also Dan 8:17; Tob 12:16).

Or maybe, Catholics should not follow Solomon's example and fill God's house (the Holy of Holies) with image works of angels (2Chron 3:10-13. Poor Solomon probably thought that holy images can serve a divine purpose (Numbers 21:7-9).

Poor Catholics, please pay more attention to Scripture.

-- Jorge (JTrujillo7203@hotmail.com), June 25, 1999.

<< Let me ask you something,are you a complete idiot? >>

My, my, we are getting testy aren't we Kenneth? Can I take your failure to document your allegations on the two points I raised to mean that you agree with me that you are lying, but that you don't have the guts to admit it here?

<< Why don't you prove all this stuff about mary,purgatory and all this other crap you insert into God's Word. >>

Why don't you tell us why you violate the Scriptures by discarding God's Word passed on orally: "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (2 Thess 2:15).

<< Let me ask you something,does the words hail mary mean anything to you? >>

Sure. That would be addressing Mary in the same way that an angel in Scripture does. "And Gabriel came to her and said, 'Hail, Full of Grace, the Lord is with you!'" (Luke 1:28). Was the angel Gabriel worshipping Mary, Kenneth?

I will ask you one more time: document where the Catholic Church has ever taught that Mary is to receive the adoration and worship due to God. Otherwise we will very rightly conclude that you don't give a rip about the commandments of God, at least about bearing false witness.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), June 25, 1999.

Jorge,

You da man! ;=D.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), June 25, 1999.

david palm:

1 -i asked kenneth sometime ago to show the plcture of the pretended latin text in the pope's miter.

2- i asked whether Moses and Solomon disobeyed God's law when follo- ing the ORDERS of Yahweh himself placed figures of angels on the arc of the covenant and in the temple.

So far no answer!!!!!!

i think we must give up on getting a reply.

i bet that if we get one it will be something like this: the rcc is a false religion, you don't follow the word of God, you worship Mary, you are in error and are going to hell...and so on and on. But we won't get a straight answer to very clear and definite questions.

ENRIQUE

-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), June 26, 1999.

Kenneth,

God is the supreme author of Scripture. What God says in one place cannot contradict what God said in another place. That you are misunderstanding Scripture is clear in that God would be saying that God commands not to make images as part of a commandment and then later on goes on to say to Moses to break that very commandment (Numbers 21:7-9). God is Truth and therefore cannot do something contrary to His nature.

As a matter of fact, God is pleased with holy image work. When Solomon built the Temple, he adorned it with all sorts of carved image work (1Kings 6:23, 27-29; 7:25; 7:36). After he finished the House of God, Yahweh appeared to him a second time. "And the Lord said to him, 'I have heard your prayer and your supplication, which you have made before me; I have consecrated this house which you have built, and put my name there forever; my eyes and my heart will be there for all time. And as for you, if you will walk before me, as David your father walked, with intergrity of heart and uprightness, doing according to all that I have commanded you, and keeping my statutes and my ordinances, then I will establish your royal throne over Israel for ever. . ." (1Kings 9:3-5). OOPS! Did God not know what Solomon placed in the Temple (carved images)? Apparently, Solomon had God's full approval because God "consecrated" the Temple which was full of images.

It is also interesting to note how an extremely holy creature of God (an angel) approached Mary. Angels are said to be of a superior nature to humans (Heb 2:6). Angels are also in the direct presence of God and therefore must be sinless, glorified, and completely holy (Rev 21:27). Thus for such a holy creature to approach Mary, a mere human, with the words "Rejoice! Having been transformed by God's grace, the Lord is with you" [traditionally: "Hail, Full of Grace"] is clearly an indication that Mary was priveleged and blessed beyond any creature in the universe. These important words to Mary came from an Archangel for that matter. (Gabriel describes himself as an angel that is in the presence of God [Tradition assigns seven archangels before the throne of God: Tobit 12:15; Rev 1:4; 4:5; 5:6; 8:2; 15:5- 8]). Mary did not fall to the floor as is common for humans to do before a holy angel (Joshua 5:14-15; Dan 8:17; 10:11; etc.). In turn, the Angel Gabriel honors Mary and recognizes Mary's unique position in relation to God and creatures. Mary is honored above all creatures. God alone is worshipped and adored. Mary is what she is only because of God (Luke 1:38).

-- Jorge (JTrujillo7203@hotmail.com), June 26, 1999.

Enrique and Jorge,

God also commanded the jews to kill anything that breathes life when they first entered the holy land but, before hand he commanded them that "thou shalt not kill".

Why?

-- Michael(non-catholic) (mdroe@erinet.com), June 27, 1999.

Are you accusing God of being contradictory, Michael?

I say you and Kenneth are thoroughly dishonest when you accuse us of "changing the commandments" and "worshipping graven images" but when we show you Biblical examples to demonstrate that having images in our places of worship is not in violation of God's commandments you try to change the subject or just go silent. Then after a couple of weeks of silence you just pose the very same accusation, as if nobody had ever explained it to you. That's dishonest. You guys are not interested in truth; you're just interested in bashing Catholics.

Now, answer the question; if God really meant by the commandment that there were to be no statues or images in places of worship then why does He command His people to place images and statues in His Tabernacle and Temple?

(Oh, and by the way Michael, the commandment is "Thou shalt not murder" and what God commanded the Israelites to do was not murder. There, now answer our questions.)

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), June 27, 1999.

David Palm wrote***Are you accusing God of being contradictory, Michael?***

Absolutely not! I have asked the question to show the right answer: When God makes a specific command it is good and lawful but, can you show me where God gave the specific command for the allowance of idols in the RCC? Where God commanded the RCC to kill(murder) heretics?

No you can not!

You seem not to understand the word of God. Those figures or idols have you, were representations of things in heaven. The Jews at the time were seeking a earthly kingdom and not a heavenly one until the Messiah came, therefore they were given earthly things. Once the Messiah was sacrificed those figures then become only heavenly figures. Don't you ever wonder why there has not been a Jewish tabernacle since the times of the Messiah and why the temple vail was torn? It is in heaven, read revelations. Jesus is in heaven just as he should be in your heart and the arc of the covenant(God's laws) is in heaven (Revelations) as it should be in your heart just as Moses spoke of in Deut. and the circumscision will be in their heart when they return to the holy land.

-- Michael(non-catholic) (mdroe@erinet.com), June 28, 1999.

We have no idols in Catholic Churches. An idol is something you worship; we don't worship statues. If you think otherwise (despite having this explained to you probably a dozen times now) then by all means show us the official teaching of the Catholic Church that says that we are to give to an inanimate object the same adoration due to God. Show us that, Michael, and you will have won your case.

If you can't do that then you break the commandment against bearing false witness against your neighbor. I can't abide hypocrites.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), June 28, 1999.

First David you must understand idolatry. It is bowing down OR serving an image that is in the likeness of something in heaven( crucifix? Mary?) or in the earth beneath or in the waters under the earth. Show me where any of theses idols in the Days of Judaism were bowed down to or served?

-- Michael(non-catholic) (mdroe@erinet.com), June 28, 1999.

Michael,

You are fond of quoting Webster's dictionary to us. Now Webster's defines idolatry as "the worship of a physical object as a god." That is exactly right and that is what Catholics never do, indeed are forbidden to do by the Catholic Church.

Bowing by itself can simply be a sign of respect, as is evidenced many times in Scripture (I have written to you about this before). Joseph's brothers bow before him. Solomon bows when he comes into the presence of his mother Bathsheba. None of these are acts of worship; they are acts of respect.

When a Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Christian bows to an icon or a statue they are not worshipping that physical object as a god. Rather, they are honoring that which that object represents. It is very much like kissing a picture of your mother or your wife; you are not venerating a piece of paper but rather what that paper represents.

But, you may ask, why make the icon at all? Why not simply have spiritual thoughts about these things? It is because the Lord Jesus was not merely a Spirit but took on flesh and blood. God made flesh. The Incarnation. This changes the whole character of Christian worship. It was not merely our spirits that Jesus came to save; He came to redeem our bodies as well. And so Christians have always used physical representations in their worship, not as idols but as reminders to our physical senses of heavenly realities. If you can grasp that simple fact, that Christian worship is to engage our whole selves, body and spirit and not merely our spirit then you will understand a lot more about the incense and icons and candles and other physical objects that Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians use in their worship.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), June 29, 1999.

michael, do you stand up when you hear the national anthem? do you salute the flag? do the japanese or hindus practice idolatry when they BOW to each other?

i wonder.

ENRIQUE

-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), June 29, 1999.

So what does god say about capital punishment??????Just a question??????

-- r. j (scarecrow63@yahoo.com), January 28, 2001.

Jmj

Hi, r.j.. God speaks to us through his written Word and through his Son's vicar, the pope (and the Catholic bishops in union with him).

I like Rich Pohlman's answer to your question (which he posted on this forum about 18 months ago), because I believe it to be succinct and correct. I hope that he won't mind my quoting it:
"The [Catholic] Church has always granted that a justly constituted civil authority had the right to punish a criminal found guilty of a very grave crime by death. [This is based on Genesis 9:6 -- Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.].
"This was only granted to the civil authorities, not to individuals, for the protection of the society. This was to insure that the criminal could not possibly commit the crime again. St. Thomas Aquinas the moral theologian [of the 13th century] addresses this in his Summa Q63-71.
"What Pope John Paul II and the Catholic Bishops have said recently is that, in our modern society with the current prison systems it is no longer necessary to put a criminal to death to protect society. It is now possible to really put a criminal in prison for life and they will without a doubt never see the outside again. So the Church is saying that society still has the right to inflect the death penalty, but in most cases, no longer has the need to exercise that right. [Naturally, there are exceptions -- most notably "undeveloped" nations that have undependable prison systems. More on exceptions below. JFG] Remember society can kill a criminal only as a punishment, inflicted by public authority, for the common good and protection and only for a very grave crime. It should never be looked at as retribution, satisfaction, vengeance, etc.. "So sacred is human life that no public authority, no private person, can directly kill an innocent person for any reason.
(repsfo@prodigy.net), July 20, 1999."

I need to add that the actual words used in the Catechism of the Catholic Church on this subject are the following, which leave just enough "leeway" for Catholic people in government of developed nations to attempt to justify their own roles in capital punishment by making prudential judgments. (The pope has not declared that such people with sincerely held beliefs are sinning or are excommunicated.):
2267. "The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor. 'If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. 'Today, in fact, given the means at the State's disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today ... are very rare, if not practically non-existent.' [Cf. Gen 4:10 -- And the Lord said, 'What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground.']"

Some governors/executives argue that, although their prison systems could permanently protect society from killers, the judicial branches of their governments too often allow some killers to go free without serving "life sentences." To prevent society from being thus endangered, they believe that capital punishment is still justifiable in our modern age.

May Jesus hear the prayers of Our Lady and St. James on our behalf.
God bless you.
John


-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 28, 2001.

Very interesting discussions between two religions. I guess because of adam and eve who disobeyed God to eat the tree of knowledge of good an evil thats why we all have these interesting topics(but I don't think God is happy with this) about what is right and it seems that everybody thinks that he is right. I think He feels sorry for you guys and since you are all believers, I guess we just had to be one with God. Please do remember Christ died for our sins and He loved us so much. If we are all in union with Christ, then we should all love each other as He loved us. God bless you all!!

-- (rodge0611@hotmail.com), January 20, 2004.