I had a misunderstanding with people really close to me about speaking in tongues, in the end, I was told that I'm confused. I was asked whether or not I speak in tongues, I told them the truth, I said no. I was told that i should start speaking in tongues for it's good for one's edification of the soul. My argument was that, when the apostles received the gift of speaking in tongues on the Day of Pentecost, they weren't expecting it & thus I maintained that I would not force myself to speak in tongues to please people, I would rather pray to receive the gifts of the Holy Ghost, tongues included. Tell me, was I wrong or not? How can one justify the speaking of tongues?

-- Mucha Matambanadzo (chumielobb@yahoo.com), June 07, 1999

Answers

mucha: you are right. if speaking in tongues is a gift from God, how can we presume we have it? you are right to ask from the Lord that what he can freely give or not give.

ENRIQUE

-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), June 07, 1999.

Mucha, I agree with you and Enrique. Speaking in Tongues is indeed a Gift from and of the Holy Spirit. Pray for the infilling of the Holy Spirit and ask for the Gift of tongues. If you know of a church around you that conducts a "Life In the Spirit" class, that would be most helpful. I believe that class is still used in Catholic Charismatic circles. They teach about the Holy Spirit and pray for those to receive.

-- David (David@matt6:33.com), June 07, 1999.

MM,

I have recently had this discussion with those close to me as well (Catholic and Non-Catholic). You were right to pray to recieve the gifts of the Holy Spirit in their fullness with whatever God would choose to give you. Its interesting to see, though, that the apostles knew they were to be baptized with the Holy Spirit, whether they knew what that meant or not... its hard to tell, but they were expecting it, and they should have because Jesus told them to. Read Acts chapters 1 and 2 they are very cool. The "problem" with spiritual gifts is that anyone can proclaim to have them and may not really have them. 1 Corinthians 12-14 are really good to read too! A couple of points from them:

1 Cor. 12: 8 -10 ----- this verse is very clear in stating that perhaps not all people will recieve the same gifts. 1 Cor. 12: 27 - 31 (THIS IS A GOOD ONE!) Paul show us that God has designated people with gifts. And it seems that there is a very understandable order of importance... with tounges being at the end. I think that I would rather be an Apostle than speak in tounges. And I would also rather be a teacher than speak in tounges. But of course I am open to what God has planned for me that is very important.

It is very easy to see many different ideas on the spiritual gifts, but the most important thing to remember is that they are "gifts" and that God will give you them as He wishes.

Another problem you may run into is the fear of open yourself to the spiritual realm and perhaps gaining a evil spirit instead of the Holy Spirit. But realistically God is bigger and stronger and better than any evil spirit... including satan! If you ask God to fill you with the Holy Spirit, I promise you that as long as your heart is on God no evil will come upon you. Don't get me wrong though... satan does not, in any way, like the fact that people love God, or that they want the Holy Spirit... you may come into greater temptations and may find yourself in greater sin unnoticeably, but if you focus on God and the Truth you will prosper.

-- Matthew Daniel (muse21@hotmail.com), June 07, 1999.

Mucha,

I understand your confusion totally because I have friends who are charismatics telling me that I need to speak in tongues in order to receive salvation. I raised the issue in RCIA and consulted the Bible for an answer. Guess what? In the Acts of the Apostles, Paul wrote that he wished that we could speak in tongues but it's not a must. Paul'd rather us follow the teachings of the Lord and practice it. The 7 other gifts of the Holy Spirit (e.g. wisdom, awe, courage, etc) are also important. In my humble opinion, I think that reverence for the Lord is more important than speaking in tongues. Of course, if you do speak in tongues, good for you. That's a holy gift, but if we don't that doesn't mean that we'll be condemned. In the Bible, Jesus criticized the Jewish priests and Pharasees for paying lip service to God. We need to look at the larger picture. What is Jesus really trying to teach us? Speaking in tongues or live a better life so that we may obtain eternal salvation?!

-- Ethan (ethan_hawk@usa.net), November 03, 2000.

It is not in living a better life that we gain eternity, but in believing that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Making Him the Lord of all you do. Eph.2:8-9.."It is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast". None of us can live up to Gods standard.So Jesus paid the price for us. Ask Him to come into your heart and make you a New person in Him.Then all your good works and better life will reflect Jesus.

-- Susan Shepherd-Magistro (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), November 03, 2000.

Matthew's Gospel reads:

When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32: Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33: and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34: Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35: for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36: I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37: Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38: And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39: And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40: And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'

And I ask: did Jesus mentioned anything about speaking of tongues in order to be with Him in his glory?

Enrique 41

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), November 04, 2000.

Jmj
Hi, Susan.

Yes, I noticed Ethan's words yesterday ["What is Jesus really trying to teach us? Speaking in tongues or live a better life so that we may obtain eternal salvation?!], and I considered replying to ask him for a clarification. But I decided to wait and see if you or another of our Protestant visitors would object to what he wrote. You see, I am pretty confident that he just used a "short-hand" form of speaking about how a person comes to be saved, when he mentioned "liv[ing] a better life." I am confident that he is well aware that a person must first have faith in Jesus as his savior, must repent of his sins, and must be baptized -- not just "live a better life."

But if I am mistaken and Ethan really means that a person simply needs to "live a better life," then he could not be a Catholic. The idea of "earning" one's salvation simply by one's own good deeds is the heresy of Pelagianism, which was condemned by the Catholic Church many centuries before Protestantism began to exist.

Unfortunately, the alternative doctrine to which you seemed to have attached yourself after leaving Catholicism, Susan, arose from a different heresy. It is known as the principle of "sola fide" -- salvation by faith alone -- and it arose less than 500 years ago. No body of Christians prior to the rise of those who followed Father Martin Luther are known to have believed in this principle. But now many [by no means all] Protestants believe in it. This is a complex topic, about which gallons of ink have been spelled in the last 500 years. I would rather not spill more than a few more words about it. I would rather recommend the "tracts" and recorded (Real Audio) radio programs that can be read/heard by going to this site.

What Christians have actually believed since Jesus founded the Church is that we are initially justified by grace that leads us to faith, a gift to which we should respond by acceptance, repentance, and (if we know of its necessity) the Sacrament of Baptism. That is initial justification. After this, in order to remain justified, we must avoid mortal sin and we must practice "good works" -- or better stated, we must be open to allowing the Holy Spirit to guard us against grave sin and we must allow Jesus to perform good works through us, his "Body." This is what St. Paul more than once called "the obedience of faith."

As Jesus told us and made abundantly clear, it is not enough just to have a "believing faith." It must be a "faith in action." That is why, Susan, I have to disagree partly with what you told Ethan:
"It is not in living a better life that we gain eternity, but in believing that Jesus died on the cross for our sins."
Why is this formula incomplete? Because even satan "believ[es] that Jesus died on the cross for our sins," but he does not "gain eternity" simply by believing this. Clearly, the idea of "sola fide" is lacking something big. That is why so many Protestants (including learned pastors) who have held to "sola fide" have become Catholics, after they have been made aware of its incompleteness and lack of historical roots.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), November 04, 2000.

Look at the big picture (i.e.: context) of Paul's letters to the Corinthian Church (I & II Corinthians). The Corinthians were backsliding horribly and, like many charismatic churches today, were emphasizing the gifts that were most 'visible'. Gifts that took shape in physical manifestations (i.e.: tounges). Tounges, specifically, were being abused, like they are now (Paul talks about them a lot!). Worse, the Corinthian Church was without order. Paul was entreating for some sense of order, describing God's appointments (I Cor. 12:28), emphasizing (in I Cor. ch13, early ch14), that all gifts must all be used in love and for edification of the body. He urged that if one spoke in tounges, there MUST be a translation, otherwise it's pointless. What edification is brought to others (the body) if no one can understand you? Read I Cor. 13:11 to 14:19. The purpose of tounges, described in I Cor. 14:22-23, is thus: "So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe, but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers, but to those who believe. If therefore whe whole church should assemble together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say you are mad?" Read on for more clarification.

As read in I Cor. 12, we have each been given *a* gift or, possibly, *multiple* gifts. There is nothing wrong, obviously, in praying for your gift(s) to be revealed to you. However, if you are praying specifically for, say, tounges, you could be praying for a gift that was not given to you, and are basically saying, "God, I'm not happy with the ones I have, and I don't feel 'filled' by them. Give me this one." You can be filled with the Spirit when you use your gifts (like mine, giving & helping) in love. Your 'filling' does not necessarily take on a physical manifestation. But, because there are Spiritually immature Christians out there, they are fed the lie that they have to speak in tounges in order to be filled. Yes, God may grant this manifestation, but it is to show them that He is there. If tounges are in fact not their gift, the believer will see the error or their ways.

Let me reiterate that there is nothing wrong with using your spiritual gift of tounges. There is no gift that is greater than then other -- each is needed (read I Cor. 12), however, teaching & prophesy clearly bring greater edification to the body. Why charismatics seek what has been termed as one of the 'lesser gifts' I don't know. However, it must be used carefully (with order & interpretation), lest you will edify only yourself.

-- E Fisher (efish@ix.netcom.com), December 26, 2001.

Tounges is a gift from God. Don't you worry about pleasing man. What alot of people do not understand is that God has us where he wants us. Sometimes some that are very mature in Christ and have expirenced the Babtisim in the Holy Spirt forget what it was like before. The word of God also says that God gives diffrent gifts to diffrent belivers. God loves you very much ! You are God's child and he loves you more than any earthly parent ever could. God only wants you to seek his face in your life and he will walk with you day by day. Serving God is not what you can do or how many times you speak in tounges or anything of the sort. God wants you to submit to him fully and put your hand in his knowing that it is by grace that we are saved and we can do nothing to earn it or obtain it. I think that every beliver should pray for the babtisim in the Holy Ghost and I belive he will honor that request. The word of God says that if we ask for any good thing he will not turn deney us. God loves you more than you can ever know, think or feel !

-- Mark (Mgarcia844@charter.net), May 18, 2003.

-maybe the message posted here would be more effective if posted in 'tongues'?

-- Daniel Hawkenberry (dlm@catholic.org), May 18, 2003.

Greetings! As wonderful and mysterious as the gifts of the Spirit are, and how much controversy they cause between God's sons and daughters, it would be more profitable if we all returned to the basics of salvation and the Gospel message. If you speak in tounges... fine, if you don't... that's fine too. Remember, not all prophesy, not all speak in tounges, etc... God gives the gifts as He wills, not as we will. I am afraid the bride of Christ has become more fascinated with being "spiritual" than in bringing the message of Christ's sacrifice to a lost, hurting, and hell bound world. I wonder if Christ will be more please with those who spent their time obsessing over tounges more than the lost. By the way, I also speak in tounges... keep the mission in focus brothers and sisters.

-- Don Boulanger (dboulang@velcro.com), June 17, 2003.

Good...Good...Good... Thank you for your post, Don. I too am a convert, who came from a Charismatic background. Therefore, I am now a Catholic charismatic. Many of my Catholic brothers and sisters are curious about speaking in tongues and other gifts of the Holy Spirit when they find out I used to be Pentecostal. However, I feel...as you do...that the important thing is our mission to the world, not how "special" we are because we speak in tongues (or have any other gift of the Spirit) and someone else doesn't. That's just pride, which of course, is a sin.

The advice I would give [my advice and my opinion only…not authoritative] to people that are curious, or actively seeking the gifts of the Holy Spirit, is to USE CAUTION. What I mean by that is: if the Holy Spirit wants to bless you with any gift...He will. HOWEVER, He usually does this because He is calling you to DO some sort of ministry with this gift. That's why… unless you are totally willing to go anywhere and do anything…you may not be ready to ask the Holy Spirit for such a gift, if it means you will then be accountable to use it! Remember, the people at Pentecost were empowered to enable them do their mission...they also died horrible deaths as martyrs (excluding St. John, of course.) They were ready and willing to take it “all the way”.

In my experience, if a person has asked the Holy Spirit for His gifts, he or she better be prepared to receive and use those gifts. They aren't just given to a person so that he or she can say they have them. There's a responsibility that goes along with them. If you aren't serious about ministry, I would hesitate to ask Him until you are.

-- Victoria (tecdork99@pvfnet.com), June 22, 2003.

I justify speaking in tongues by reading this passage...1 Cor. 14:19..."I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in tongue." There are also several other passages in this chapter that talk about the importance of tongues. Such as 1 Cor. 14: 22...Tongues then are a sign, not for believers, but for all unbelievers; prophecy however, is for believers, not unbelievers. So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in, Will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare." If that doesn't answer your question about speaking in tongues, then I don't know what else will. I personally agree with the Bible, and think it is best not to, and honestly, I don't believe many have that gift these days...if any. God saves that gift for times of need. I don't think it is needed right now, especially with all the technology that breaks down the barriers of language. I have been to a pentacostle church, and have listened to the "speaking of tongues"...it sounds not like another language, which it is suppose to be, but a bunch of jiberish and noise they are making up. If you are offended by my answer, please feel free to email me. Julie

-- Julianne Smith (spike0139@hotmail.com), October 17, 2003.

I have been to a pentacostle church, and have listened to the "speaking of tongues"...it sounds not like another language, which it is suppose to be, but a bunch of jiberish and noise they are making up.

There's a good reason for that.

-- jake (jake1REMOVE@pngusa.net), October 18, 2003.

if you really want to know the truth about speaking in tongues, you need to read ALL of the new testament. i am pentecostal and i speak in tongues. i used to be methodist. i thought the same thing you did. i t took me forever to get the Holy Ghost. everybody from my old church told me that i already had it, but i knew there was a lot more. dont just look at acts 2:38. if some pentecostal is trying to convert you with just that scripture, then they dont know the word very well. if you REALLY want the TRUE baptism of the holy ghost, all you have to do is just get that preconceived idea out of who God is out of your head, and get on your knees, and say whatever you have for me, i want it, and if there is more God, i want it because you promised it to me, and he'll bless you for that i promise. dont get so wrapped up in what everybody says, you find it for yourself in the word. in your secret closet, that is were you will find the truth. the speaking in tongues will come, if you really want it. dont let anyone tell you that you have Gods spirit, your soul is your soul. God loves you and waiting for your defining moment. its not about doctrine, its all about love and an experience. when you finally decide, just tell God, and he'll take you away to a place where you have never been before, something that you have never experienced before, and you'll never want to leave. just get in your secret closet, and stay there. dont decide your belief on someone elses experience. remember, tell God to give you that gift that he promised, and whatever that comes with. and if your honest and true, i promised it will happen -kyle,

-- kyle (buckweet0684@aol.com), January 13, 2004.

Hi Kyle, and welcome,

As a Protestant it is interesting that you suggest we should read “ALL” of the New Testament. Did you know that for 1500 years after Christ there existed 7 additional books from scripture that have since been removed? It was only 500 years ago that someone decided to remove them based on his interpretation of what God was telling him. Catholics have been reading “ALL” of scripture, both the Old and New Testaments, all along.

Catholics as a whole don’t prescribe to the practice of disregarding “that preconceived idea” of who God is. When Jesus walked this earth as a man He assigned the chore of preserving His memory and His Church to Peter from whom we take our direction. In this way we don’t have as many different interpretations of scripture as there are people.

Kyle you say “it’s not about doctrine”. Catholics couldn’t disagree with you more. Doctrine to us is knowledge handed down to us by Jesus Christ, Himself. Doctrine to us is sacred and as such is to be preserved for our benefit. It is synonymous with our Catechism. It gives structure to our faith to prevent us from splintering into hundreds of different groups with varying degrees of Truth in their possession. You can’t “just get into a closet and stay there”. Jesus meant for his followers to be family. We humans are creatures of love not isolation. To love someone you must have interaction with them. Jesus also asked us to go out and spread the Good News to others. You can’t do much of that if you’re locked away in some closet.

I am happy you’ve been bestowed the gift of tongues. Please use it wisely for God’s purpose in your life. Be careful not to be too infused with the Spirit that you can’t control your gift. Humility is the key to using any gift from God. Now that I think of it, I could use a little more of that myself.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), January 13, 2004.

Wow Ed, good answer!! (and I'm not just sucking up to the new moderator.)

Benedict Groeschel has written about the manifestation of speaking in tongues. It occurs in different ways and is in no way inconsistent with any Catholic Doctrine. He describes it in psychological terms.

The "speaking in tongues" phenomena, as Groeschel analyses it, when it is genuine and not contrived, is kind of a release of the subconscience. It may be guided by the Holy Spirit and it may not. Much depends on the individual speaking, their interior emotional development and their spiritual disposition. The Holy Spirit may also be involved.

Based on this, I would think it is not something to be sought after. Then it would be contrived. And there are many many established ways of receiving the Holy Spirit, such as the fountains of grace coming from prayer and the Sacraments. But if the "speaking" does come as a natural consequence, then just accept it.

-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), January 13, 2004.

Thanks Pat! (No suckup taken - LOL!) You are quite correct, the gift of tongues is just that - an outright gift. It's a gift from the Holy Spirit mentioned by Saint Paul (1 Cor. 12:7-11) and no matter how hard you try, you can't acquire it simply because you want it. Some get it and some don't. It all depends on what the Holy Spirit wants for you.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), January 13, 2004.

Ed,

Just to clarify, the Protestant and Catholic New Testament are identical. The "7 additional books", the "deuterocanonical" books, are Old Testament books that were originally categorized by the early church (e.g., Jerome in the 4th century) as being less than scripture. These books were not available in Hebrew and not considered canonical by the Jews, so Jerome said they were OK as models of faith and conduct, but should not be used to establish doctrine. These books were categorized that way by the entire church (including the fledgling Protestant movement which did not, at that time, remove the books) until the Council of Trent which changed there designation to include them in the canon. Once the Catholic Church decided to make them canon, the Protestants decided to remove them entirely.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), January 13, 2004.

Stuff 'n' nonsense!

St. Jerome was not "the early church." He wasn't even in the hierarchy. The Church assured him that he was wrong, and he gave in. If he had not, he would not be known as a saint today.

The OT canon was determined by 400, including all 46 books, and was followed thusly for 1100 more years. Then the truth that had already been believed for over a millennium by the whole Catholic Church -- and had therefore been taught infallibly by the Universal and Ordinary Magisterium -- was merely solemnly defined at Trent because heretics had started disputing it and dropping books.

-- (JustThe@Facts.Ma'am), January 13, 2004.

David I never said the Protestant and Catholic New Testatments were not identical. I merely said there were seven books removed from "scripture". I am well aware these books are from the Old Testament. Perhaps I should have been more explicit in my post.

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), January 13, 2004.

It's just that you kinda jumped on Kyle for something that his post never intended. I don't think he ever implied that Catholics don't have the whole NT. He was just being enthusiastic about all of the wonderful things that Christians are called to in the NT and encouraging everyone to read the NT thoroughly. I suspect he's not familiar to the forum which is loaded with folks very passionate and knowledgable about their faith and certainly would have read every word of the NT multiple times, that's just the nature of the folks on this board. But that's not common, which was his intent - I believe.

Anyway, sorry for picking nits.

Dave

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), January 13, 2004.

HEY YOU GUYS, THIS IS KYLE AGAIN. I WANT TO CLARIFY THAT I WASNT SAYING PEOPLE HAVEN'T READ THE WHOLE NT. I HAVE MET A LOT OF "UN- EDUCATED PENTECOSTALS" THAT ONLY KNOW THE SCRIPTURE ACTS 2:38. WHAT I MEAN BY THIS IS THEY PUSH THIS SCRIPTURE ON OTHER PEOPLE AND HAVE NO OTHER BIBLICAL SCRIPTURES TO EXPLAIN AND UPHOLD WHAT THEY BELEIVE. THIS REALLY GETS ON MY NERVES. I PERSONALLY BELEIVE THAT ACTS 2:38 IS IMPORTANT BUT THERE ARE SO MANY OTHER SCRIPTURES TO READ. YOU HAVE TO TAKE ALL THE SCRIPTURES AND APPLY ALL OF THEM. IM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE "GIFT OF TONGUES", IM TALKING ABOUT PRAYING IN TONGUES...TO GOD... FOR YOUR OWN EDIFICATION. THEY ARE, IN FACT, TWO SEPARATE ENTITIES. I DONT HAVE THE GIFT OF TONGUES. I WISH I DID. THAT WOULD BE COOL. I ALSO DONT HAVE THE GIFT OF PROPHECY. I AM A NURSE, AND I BELEIVE THAT I HAVE A COMFORTING TOUCH TO HELP PEOPLE HEAL. THANK YOU JESUS FOR THAT. BUT, HOWEVER, WHEN I PRAY, I PRAY IN TONGUES TO GOD. IM NOT SPEAKING TO ANY ONE ELSE. THE ONLY ONE I AM SPEAKING TO IS JESUS. ITS NOT MADE UP, ITS NOT "MUMBO JUMBO" LIKE SOME MAY BELEIVE, IT IS A VERY REAL LANGUAGE, HEAVENLY LANGUAGE. AND GOD LOVES IT. "FROM MY BELLY, FLOWS RIVERS OF LIVING WATER" JESUS SAYS THAT NO ONE WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD UNLESS YOU ARE BORN OF THE WATER AND OF SPIRIT. ACTS 8:14. PETER AND HIS GUYS WERE LAYING THEIR HANDS ON PEOPLE AND ASKING GOD TO FILL THEM WITH THE HOLY GHOST. THE SCRIPTURE SAYS THAT THEY HADN'T BEEN FILLED WITH THE HOLY GHOST. THEN PETER AND JOHN PLACED THEIR HANDS ON THEM AND PRAYED FOR THEM AND THEN THEY RECIEVED THE HOLY GHOST. HOW DID PETER AND JOHN KNOW THAT THEY RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST? THERE HAD TO HAVE BEEN SOME KIND OF SIGN WHEN THE HOLY GHOST FELL ON THEM. BECAUSE WHEN SIMON SEEN THAT THEY GOT THE HOLY GHOST HE WANTED THIS GIFT AS PETER AND JOHN HAD. SO, HOW DID SIMON KNOW THEY WERE FILLED. HE HAD TO HAVE SEEN OR HEARD SOMETHING. SPEAKING IN TONGUES IS SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS AS THE SPIRIT GIVES THE UTTERANCE. ITS NOT JUST SOMETHING YOU CAN JUST SAY LIKE, "WATCH ME, I CAN SPEAK IN TONGUES". ITS PRAYERFUL, AND SPIRITUAL. I DONT WANT TO BE "PENTECOSTAL". I WANT TO LIVE MY LIFE LIKE THE APOSTLES DID, APOSTOLIC. THAT MEANS I BELEIVE, TEACH AND EXPERIENCE AND PRACTICE ALL THE THINGS THE APOSTLES DID IN THAT TIME LIKE JESUS HAD INSTRUCTED THEM TO DO. PLEASE WRITE BACK YOU GUYS, I HOPE I DONT OFFEND YOU GUYS, MAYBE I CAN LEARN SOMETHING FROM YOU ALL ALSO. BYE, AND GOD BLESS

KYLE

-- KYLE (BUCKWEET0684@AOL.COM), February 05, 2004.

Kyle, Your post is very hard to read. Please don't type all in caps and break your thoughts up into paragraphs.

thank you, Bill Nelson

-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), February 05, 2004.

Well I discoverd this place and this discusion because i was in a bit of a rut. Today in my first block class (YES IM A SOPHOMORE IN HIGH SCHOOL LOL) a friend of mine and I were talking about salvation, and somehow she brought up speaking in tounges! Well I'm a Missionary Baptist, and I'll tell you the truth, I freak out when I hear people speak in tounges! Im sorry but Im just not used to it! Well I have no clue what religion she is but she said that if i didnt i was denying God and that i was commiting the unforgivable sin! I'll have to tell you I got kind of upset because I Love God and i KNOW that i know that i know that if I were to die right now i woud go to heaven, speaking tounges or not. But thank you all for your input, at least Ill KNOW how to explain how i believe. But I have something to say too!:) Well If I feel the spirit ill do what God tells me to do, Since I know no other language Itll more than likely be in english, and since God knows all languages, hell know that im praising him, and thats all that matters, that God gets the Glory, and sometimes I feel that some people are just "Speaking in Tounges" for the show, and i really dont agree with that. So In short FOLLOW GOD and DO HIS WILL, not what others tell you to do, Listen to God, NOT MAN! and Ethan you are VERY wise!:) thanx and God Bless!

-- Rachel Knox (angel_wings_37857@hotmail.com), February 05, 2004.

i cant talk long, but i have a question, just out of curiosity for everyone who doesnt think that speaking in tongues is """"part"""" of the plan of salvation. (and part meaning that it is certainly not the most important thing of salvation). do you have anyone in your church or a church like your that "have the gift of tongues", meaning, they give a message to the church FROM GOD and the same person interprets or someone else in the church interprets it for them. not to offend anyone, but just out of curiosity. thanks you guys

kyle

-- kyle (buckweet0684@aol.com), February 07, 2004.

one more thing for rachel,

whoever told you that you are committing the "unforgivable sin" is wrong and they need to look at their own walk with God. they shouldnt have judged you and no one has the right to tell anyone that they are going to hell.

Another thing. Ask God, literally say, "God, I am yours, you own me Jesus. I want to do you will and what you have for me. But God, if there is anything, anything that you have left, I WANT IT. If i dont have it and you will for me to have it, give it to me." And I think that everbody that walks the face of this earth get up every morning and say that.

thanks you guys, kyle

-- kyle (buckweet0684@aol.com), February 07, 2004.

I haven't read all the posts, so please excuse if this is redundant, but wasn't there supposed to be a purpose for speaking in tongues? Like if a Frenchman, not knowing English, spoke to me in English (to spread God's word)? Or if a Spaniard spoke (Spanish) and at the same time, both the Frenchman and I understood? Does speaking in tongues benefit anyone if neither the speaker nor the listener understands?

-- Mark Advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), February 07, 2004.

wasn't there supposed to be a purpose for speaking in tongues? Like if a Frenchman, not knowing English, spoke to me in English (to spread God's word)? Or if a Spaniard spoke (Spanish) and at the same time, both the Frenchman and I understood?

Exactly. The purpose was for the rapid propogation of the Faith. It was a miracle of grace which God gradually withdrew as it became less & less necessary.

Does speaking in tongues benefit anyone if neither the speaker nor the listener understands?

You mean like this?

No. No benefit at all, other than the rush of false emotion that Penecostalists/Charismaniacs seem to get out of acting that way in public.

-- jake (j@k.e), February 08, 2004.

"wasn't there supposed to be a purpose for speaking in tongues?"

A: Yes, there is indeed a very important purpose for praying in tongues, but not the purpose you described. The principle purpose of praying in tongues is to elevate our prayer to a level of greater perfection, as described in Romans 8:

"In the same way the Spirit also helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8:26-27)

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 08, 2004.

Paul- I'm not sure I understand what the second paragraph of your submission means. Are "groanings" the same as tongues? Does each occurance of "He" refer to the Holy Spirit? Thanks.

-- Mark Advent (adventm5477@earthlink.net), February 08, 2004.

jake, i think you are very immature for your comment that you made about pentecostals and charasmatic people speaking in tongues and you think that it is false emotions. obviously youve never spoken with tongues. because when you realize that all the immature comments you have said about speaking with tongues are just said "without education", your gonna feel real stupid. im sorry, im just offended.

(Does speaking in tongues benefit anyone if neither the speaker nor the listener understands?

You mean like this?) (this is what jake wrote)!

and then your web site that you put on there for everybody to go to was very immature. im sure that there are things about your faith that everbody could pick on, but ADULTS just dont do that.

and yes, im pentecostal, but i grew up methodist and ive been baptized in Jesus name and had the Holy Ghost for one year, my parents dont like me anymore, neither does most of my friends, but God told me that one day, my parents and friends are going to be saved. Yeah, they believe in God, but that doesnt get you saved, the devil believes in God too, and he's not saved. anyways, Gods going to save them and they're going to see the light. and i hope that God puts someone in your life, Jake, someone like me, that will talk with you and show you that "false emotions" arent so false after all. and you will know God in SPIRIT and in TRUTH!!!!!

-- kyle (buckweet0684@aol.com), February 09, 2004.

jake, i think you are very immature for your comment that you made about pentecostals and charasmatic people speaking in tongues and you think that it is false emotions.

You're perfectly entitled to that. I guess I should clarify that I think the unintelligible gibberish muttered by charismaniacs is not "speaking in tongues" at all. I think it's, at best, some sort of ego-boosting mass-hysteria phenomenon, in short a substitute for doctrine and morals.

obviously youve never spoken with tongues. because when you realize that all the immature comments you have said about speaking with tongues are just said "without education", your gonna feel real stupid. im sorry, im just offended.

No, I never have, and if I ever start, I pray my wife has the presence of mind to commit me at once to a mental hospital, *after* dragging me at once to confession & Communion.

How much "education" does it take to do this: "Kolamosotokitikaba no say so sa ba ta komo?"

Heck, I could do that all day long, if I were so inclined. I just can't imagine any circumstance that would so incline me. Sorry you're offended. I just calls 'em like I sees 'em.

and yes, im pentecostal, but i grew up methodist and ive been baptized in Jesus name and had the Holy Ghost for one year

What does that mean, exactly? Are you Catholic? If not, please don't speak to me about religion until you're ready to become one.

Seriously.

-- jake (j@k.e), February 09, 2004.

Hi Paul Id like to repeat Marks question as to what you think groanings refer to? Persoanlly I share Jakes skepticism, (though not the condemnation or denial) that the pentecostal bent have taken this and other passages that refer to groaning far too literally. Pope JOnh Paul II has written extensively on prayer life and groaning, to me at least is a metaphor for how we must relate to God as our "Saviour". WE must genuinely implore in , groan and cry to Christ for forgivness to show our weakness before him in prayer. It is by doing this that we dignify ourselves before God by acknowledgeing ourselves as fallen and God as saviour. That is what real human dignity is all about and what groaning refers to IMO is ....

" NOT when he (man in prayer) expresses himself, but when he lets God be most fully present in prayer"

-- Kiwi (csisherwood@hotmail.com), February 09, 2004.

Ok, here's what the passage says to me ...

The passage: "In the same way the Spirit also helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."

My understanding of the passage: Sometimes in our relationship with God, we cannot find the words to express what we truly feel, for the words simply do not exist. At such times, the Holy Spirit enables us to pray in a way which transcends the need for thinking of the right words. And God, who knows the mind of the Spirit, understands this prayer, since the Spirit Himself is its source; and because the Spirit is its source, such prayer, unlike prayer formed of our own words, is always in accord with God's holy will.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 10, 2004.

Paul, your post is about as good as it gets. Excellent post!

-- Ed (catholic4444@yahoo.ca), February 10, 2004.

Ok everyone!!! Jake get a cookie for being right. But i think im going to continue doing my little "ego-boosting mass hysteria phenomenon", as a matter of fact, im going to double up on it!!! maybe you can look me up in the mental institution. Jesus was right when he said that we christians would be hated for His names sake.!!!!!

Paul, you are a very wise man, and you are very connected to God purpose.

-- kyle (buckweet0684@aol.com), February 10, 2004.

But i think im going to continue doing my little "ego-boosting mass hysteria phenomenon", as a matter of fact, im going to double up on it!!!

Knock yerself out.

-- jake (j@k.e), February 10, 2004.