"The outcome of the Protestant standpoint, individual judgment: no authority outside of oneself. However ignorant, however stupid, however unlettered, you may -- indeed you are bound -- to cut and carve out a Bible and a religion for yourself. No pope, no council, no church shall enlighten you or dictate or hand down the doctrines of Christ. The result we have seen is the corruption of God's Holy Word."

Henry G. Graham, Where We Got the Bible, chapter V

(Right Reverend Henry G. Graham (1874-1959) was a Scotch Presbyterian minister of a family line of Presbyterian ministers going back unbroken through two centuries. He converted to the Catholic Church at age 29, was ordained a presbyter in 1906, and was consecrated a bishop in 1917.)

-- Lane Core Jr. (elcore@sgi.net), June 30, 1999

Answers

Response to "No pope, no council, no church...."

I am confused with this post. Are you saying the Church should not teach? Very confused indeed at this end. - Jean B.

-- jean bouchardRC, (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), June 30, 1999.

Response to "No pope, no council, no church...."

Jean,

Lane is citing Fr. Graham to mean that without the pope, the ecumenical councils, and the teaching Church each individual must by necessity fall back on his individual resources in interpretation of the Bible and laying out Christian doctrine. The end result is based on such complete subjectivity that it ends up doctrinal chaos. Ironically it is exactly the opposite end intended by our Protestant brothers and sisters; the laudible goal of making the Word directly accessible to each individual ends up corrupting that very Word through subjective and selective interpretation.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), July 01, 1999.

Response to "No pope, no council, no church...."

Actually, I agree that while the differences in Biblical interpretation between Protestant denominations can be frustrating, but I must disagree with the characterization that interpretation for every denomination is up to each individual resulting in chaos.

Most Protestant denominations do have detailed statements of faith that have been birthed over decades and even centuries of study by theologians and ministers. While there are indeed differences between the Protestant doctrines, it is interesting to note that most agree on where they disagree with the Catholic church (i.e. doctrines regarding the papacy, treatment of Mary and saints, purgatory, etc.).

Most Protestant denominations teach new members their doctrines which must be accepted when joining the church. In my fellowship, individuals take several months studying the doctrines in a course taught by a pastor.

Personal note. While I do not pretend to have all the answers myself, I would love to find a denomination that had both doctrinal purity along with a people who bore the fruit of the Holy Spirit. In other words, the perfect church. I haven't found it quite frankly. I've settled for the one I am in because above all of the others I have tried, I agree with the majority of their doctrines and practices, the people are passionately pursuing Jesus Christ and we experience many wonderful denomstrations of God's power that is not evident elsewhere. I do however disgree with some of the doctrines.

For a few examples: We celebrate the Lord's supper once a month -- I believe it should be weekly. They consider drinking alcohol a sin -- I believe that getting drunk (a big difference) is a sin. they believe that the evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit is speaking in other tongues -- I tend to think it's not quite as clear cut as that. I have known several individual who did not speak in tongues yet had other gifts of the Spirit functioning through them.

One friend is a waitress who once had a customer whose upper body was wrapped in bandages. He was recently released from the hospital with severe burns and was still in a great deal of pain. She timidly asked if she could pray for him. He agreed and was surprised when she gently laid her hand on a part of his arm that was not bandaged and prayed for him to be healed in the name of Jesus. He testified that he could feel something happening and that the pain disappeared immediately. He returned to the restaurant several days later with no bandages and showed how new skin had grown over all of the burned areas. He knew beyond the shadow of a doubt that God has touched him. Later, that waitress (who was a student in a class I was teaching on the baptism of the Holy Spirit) asked to be baptism in the Holy Spirit. I explained that since she had already functioned in the gift of healing, that she apparently had already been filled with the Holy Spirit even though she was unable to speak in tongues. Later, she did receive her prayer language.

Anyway, this post is already too long, sorry for rambling folks. Not even sure I made a point there.

-- David Bowerman (dbowerman@blazenet.net), July 01, 1999.

Response to "No pope, no council, no church...."

David,

Beautiful story of the waitress. I love it fo rit again lets me know that so many Catholics I being one a cradle catholic think they have it made without effort. For myself I am working my butt off.

The perfect Church? Not possible in practise only on paper. Peace - Jean B.

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), July 01, 1999.

Response to "No pope, no council, no church...."

The "Perfect Church" I would think that the one founded by Christ would be that?

-- Br. Rich S.F.O. (repsfo@prodigy.net), July 01, 1999.

Response to "No pope, no council, no church...."

Had a thought regarding the original question re: No Pope No council No Church. I believe that was once in existance if historical writnings are correct. A group used to gather outside a cave gnaw bones and huddle when the storm clouds gathered and roared. Their communil prayer was termed - BINK - this being knocking one fragment of bone to another. We have come a long way since then - THANK GOD - Peace - Jean B.

-- jean bouchardRay, (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), July 02, 1999.

Response to "No pope, no council, no church...."

I don't understand...where in the scriptures is there a Pope?

Joe.

-- Joe Crow (joecrow1978@hotmail.com), December 06, 2001.

Response to "No pope, no council, no church...."

Dear Mr. Crowe,
We see in holy scripture the plain fact Jesus Christ founded His Church. The ones He sent to preach to all the nations His Gospel were the Holy Apostles, and their disciples.

One was the first Pope: Peter, who became the bishop of Rome. No strict words in scripture call the bishop of Rome Pope. It is merely a word meaning Father. It's a traditional title. There's ample biblical proof that Peter had the responsibility given Him by Jesus to lead the infant Church. Since his see was the city of Rome, all the bishops of Rome are Peter's successors. Hence, these are Popes, ''Fathers''.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 06, 2001.

Response to "No pope, no council, no church...."

"I don't understand...where in the scriptures is there a Pope?"

A more basic question and answer to consider, Mr. Crow is this one, which your question generates:
Where, in the Scriptures, does it say that there must be a pope (or any other specific doctrine) in the Scriptures? Nowhere.
In other words, Christians in the Church that Jesus founded have never said that the Bible is the only source of religious truth. It is not the only deposit of divine revelation.

In this case, as Eugene has explained, the primacy of St. Peter is recorded in the Bible -- but not all Church doctrines are so explicitly recorded there. They don't need to be.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), December 06, 2001.