Good Morning:

I have recently and reluctantly decided I must beef up my firearms inventory. There is myself, my wife, an adult son, and a very mature 14 year old daughter.

So, the following questions:

Pistols: What calibers would you recommend? I had thought first of 9mm and using 9mm rifles so as to have interchangeable ammo, but the sales staff at both stores I went to last night recommended either a .38 or a .357. Now, my wife is kinda "itty bitty, but I do want to get identical pistols for the 2 of us, again to standardize ammo.

Rifles: For longer range defense, what calibers would you recommend? At this time, I have a 30-06 bolt action, a Ruger .22 long rifle and (don't laugh, they were/are for hunting) two .50 caliber muzzleloaders.

Shotguns: At this time, I have an Ithica 12 gauge pump, 5 shot capacity if you remove the plug, and a single shot 20 gauge. My wife simple doesn't have the arm length to handle even that short, 20 gauge youth model (it's my favorite squirrel gun). I am probably going to pick up two of the short barrel, 7-9 shell capacity 12 gauge pumps available. How do you feel about the Mossberg "defender" type with the pistol grip versus the shoulder stock versions?

any and all advice is greatly appreciated.

-- Jon Williamson (pssomerville@sprintmail.com), July 03, 1999

Answers

jonnie,

i've been thinking about your weapon problem thingie but my mind keeps returning to "very mature." is she merely very mature, or in a pinch could she pass for very, very mature?

-- corrine l (corrine@iwaynet.net), July 03, 1999.

corrine, I don't normally reply to your posts, but I'll say one thing this time. I'd trust her to watch my back with a loaded weapon. 'Nuff said?

-- Jon Williamson (pssomerville@sprintmail.com), July 03, 1999.

A 9mm is a nice semiauto, but they can jam and require 2 hands. A 38 revolver comes in different lenghts and can accomodate your wife and daughter and they are real reliable. Consider a 30-30 lever action rifle to augment your other long guns. Have your family take a defensive shooting course. Check with a local lawyer for local rules. Then practise together at a range.

-- Ruth the Moab (aapm@aapainmanage.org), July 03, 1999.

Jon---you failed to mention if money had any influence on your purchase--so I am assuming that it doesn't. If you guys are fairly proficient I would stay away from the revolver scenario and go with something high capacity--maybe a Sig .40 caliber or 9mm--you may consider the Berettas also--not bad recoil and reliable in a pinch--plus surplus quantity ammo purchases won't hurt your wallet too bad. As for a rifle I would go for a military configuration. My preference would be a Yugoslavian AK in .308 caliber--they are available and I recently saw on for $850 bucks but plan on at least a grand. I would lean toward an AK because of their simplicity and realiability. You can pick up a Polytech for about $1,000 but I would go with either the Yugo or a Hungarian SA-85--about 600 bucks. High cap mags are available for both and surplus ammo is plentiful and cheap (for now). Hope I have been helpful.

-- T. Jewell (jetav8r@theglobe.com), July 03, 1999.

than the answer is, "very very mature"?

-- corrine l (corrine@iwaynet.net), July 03, 1999.

Jon,

Sounds like you have a good inventory there. The 30-06 is a good rifle, and with a scope can be an excellent long range one. As far as pistols, I was talking to a guy who seems to have some good ideas on this and I will pass it on. For a heavy hitting home defense type pistol, look at the Glock model 22C in 40 cal. The Glock is popular with police, the ammunition is readily available, and the gun can take a lot of mistreatment and still function. The 22C model is compensated (the C) which means it has vents in the top of the barrel to push it down with each firing, this helps to reduce the upward kick that normally happens with this size round. For a "pocket pistol" that is easily carried and handled by women and smaller adults look at the Smith & Wesson model 380 Sigma Series. It fires the .380 ACP round and is very good for close range. It is very light and easily fits in a pocker or purse. It is also a double action only pistol, meaning that there is no need of any safety, since it will only fire if the trigger is pulled all the way for each shot. This is a very important safety feature if you want it in a pocket. Be sure to have at least 2 more extra clips/magazines for either of these.

-- Gordon (gpconnolly@aol.com), July 03, 1999.

Shotguns: For folks who don't have the opportunity to practice often and become familiar with the shotgun, I recommend the Mossberg 500 models. For one specific reason: unlike other brands which place the safety in a potentially-confusing crossbolt configuration, the Mossberg safety is placed atop the comb. It operates in a straightforward, fore-and-aft direction. Want to get ready to shoot? Just push it forward, in the same direction the shot will leave the barrel. Hard to forget, in the stress of an encounter.

-- Norm Harrold (nharrold@tymewyse.com), July 03, 1999.

My wife sounds alot like she's the size of yours, so, I bought her a .22 semi-auto pistol, don't laugh, more folks been killed with a .22 LR in peace time than any other weapon, using a Stinger .22 LR hollow point and you've got a weapon that will do the job, it's recoil is light therefore she's not scared to death of it and it uses the same ammo as your .22 Ruger rifle, go with a Browning Buckmark or a Ruger Mark II, Mossberg shotguns are a great dependable simplistic gun, hard to beat, esp. for the money, I don't like the pistol grip version though, buy the regular one and ( still short barrell ) and buy the pistol grip seperate then try it out and decide for yourself, we own a Sporting Goods Store and the pistol grip is only 30 bucks or so, again, versatility, long range, either a .308 or a Ruger #1 .220 Swift, AWESOME gun, don't sell your 30-06 short though, it'll reach on out there, you should go with a .45 ACP, aim for the center of the chest and if your off 6 inches in any direction it won't matter, there still down, a 9MM doesn't have enough knock down power, round here most people prefer the .22 to a 9MM, hope this helps and if I can be of any further help, just email me, the email address given is correct and I'm in NC........

-- Charles (shot@perigee.net), July 03, 1999.

Hi Jon, here is an old thread that might help:

Guns for Survival

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 03, 1999.

Old saying on pistols: .25 (or .22) calibers are nice, if you don't have a gun. They aren't so hot at range, in brush, firing thru much of anything to hit your target (wall, door), or against a target wearing heavy winter clothing. (Read Massad Ayoob for more info).

I have a brief article about firearms & Y2K on my website (URL below) you may find useful. It was looked over by a retired Marine officer who was an expert with small arms.

Oh, and don't forget that .357 magnums can generally handle .38 caliber rounds (Not the other way around, though!).

www.y2ksafeminnesota.com

-- MinnesotaSmith (y2ksafeminnesota@hotmail.com), July 03, 1999.

My DREAM list.

2 Berretas 9mm M-9 military. There going for 650.00 comes with a belt, holster, 2-mag pouch and 1 15 round mag. get 2 extra mags each then your set.There rated at 5,000 rounds without a jam. Most don't think of how your going to carry a pistol untill after they buy it. There resale value will be very good just in case you decide to sell them next year.

You allready have the best long range rifle, the 30-06 , now get 2 more 22s and lots of ammo for them. Its cheap and will be good barter item. Plus you'll want to practice a lot.

Mossberg "defender" perfect. get 2 and lots more ammo, light buck, 00 and slugs.

If everyone we're this prepared, I think a war would be a big mistake for any country.

Good luck.

-- Rooster Cogburn (Gotitlate@wow.com), July 03, 1999.

To those of you who gave advice.. how would it differ if it were for a real beginner? I used to go target practicing with my dad and mom when I was a kid, but have NO guns now. Didn't believe in having guns and even turned down my inheritance of guns when my dad died. Now I'm also thinking gottagettagun... gottagettagun... gottagettagun... and don't know where to start.

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), July 03, 1999.

Depending on a 22 to kill anything other than a squirrel or bird will get you killed. That being said, I have a Ruger 10/22 scoped out and several thousand rounds to kill squirrels and rabbits with.

Tell the wife to get some barbells and buy a pistol grip or folding stock for your shotgun. I myself recommend the more military models unmodified (no stock or pistol grip) tell her to hold it waist high and point at center mass. The barbells will allow her to get it done. I have a Norinco 12 guage (nockoff of the Remington 870).

For pistolas I recommend at least a 40 caliber, but if you're worried about her handling it, certainly go to a .38 in a snubby or even one of the newer titaniums.

As for the home defense/long range hunting weapon, I am currently trying to obtain an SKS assault rifle. Range is 300 or so yards, and the 7.62 Nato (equivalent to a .308) is avail on the cheap! 1000 rounds for $129. The gun itself is somewhere around $250 or $200 Try to stick to the Russian ones, as the Chinese are less accurate. Ps. this bad boy holds 30, countem 30 in the magazine! Yeah baby.

-- L. Otts-Ofammo (defending@myhome.com), July 03, 1999.

Hello,

I am a 5'3" gal who loves her Glock Model 23 (compact 40 S&W). Excellent gun, very durable and even a good concealed carry weapon in the winter. Unless you all REALLY plan on practicing ALOT I STRONGLY recommend the .357 magnum REVOLVER, dbl. action because under stress all you do is point and pull the trigger. Also if it is decent quality (Ruger or Smith & Wesson, etc.) these are extremely strong and reliable weapons - jamming of rounds is almost unheard of... semi- autos are a lot easier to jam (for example if you don't hold it in a steady grip you may get your first round off but the slide might "stovepipe"/catch the expelling spent shell and/or not load the next round in the chamber properly.... then you are screwed until you clear it - I know :>). Ammo for .357/.38 is so cheap, so available and so easy to pour bullets and reload for (if need be) that I really think it is a solid choice for a lot of folks instead of semi-auto. But if you really want semi-auto I highly recommend the Glock and .40 S&W is a great round.

To the guy (Minnesota?) who lumps .25 and .22 LR together as being insufficient to get through heavy clothing........ WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING? Yes .25 cal is wimpy but .22? As an EMT I can tell you (even without looking up ballistic data) that .22 LR can kill and does so frequently - not a lot of initial "stopping power" but once inside the body can do a lot of damage. .25 Cal. is somewhat effective as well but not nearly as reliable for self defense. To anyone new to this do not underestimate the value of a good old reliable (and under $200!) .22 LR revolver or semi-auto rifle and other rounds like .38/.357 magnum. Also the shotguns previously mentioned.... Good luck!

-- Kristi (securx@succeed.net), July 03, 1999.

Jon: With the limited experience of your family, & even if they were well experienced , the keep it simple guideline is my recommendation.... a 357 SW which will handle the 38 shell for less recoil.... & as has been pointed out- simple and very reliable PLUS hard to mistake whether a shell is in the chamber or not as with a clip pistol..the revolver is much safer for those you care about. As for the close range weapon of choice - has to be the 870 Rem shotgun or the Moss equiv. in 12 ga with std stock as the pistol grip is more show than go...& based on your description of the Mrs she will not fire it more than once if equipped with the pistol grip. Your bolt 30-06 is one of the best long rge rifles likely ever made so use your $$ for ammo & practice , practice w/ the 30-06. If you desire another rifle-- why not a 357 lever action.... common ammo with the 357 SW. Another choice that I would rec you consider for the Mrs would be the M1 carbine, but it's 30 cal, but a very good gun for the "lighter weight" members of your family and in its own right a very good mid-range rifle . All the above are still reasonable in $$ to acquire but buy plenty of ammo & please teach them how to handle their weapons safely. The address is correct if can be of help.

-- john (jahalder@infinet.com), July 03, 1999.

Whatever firearms you end up with, I highly recommend reading ( Twice! )

"In The Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob. Amazon.com has it.

Ever gun owner who has a firearm for self defense should read this book. It details the When, where, why and how of using deadly force for self defense.

It covers, in a general way, deadly force laws throughout the country

More importantly, it details when NOT to use deadly force, and when using deadly force will end up getting you in trouble with the law. There may be dangerous times for you personally before and after Y2K when the law will be upheld and you could go to jail for using or attempting to use deadly force illegally.

If you own a firearm, you should read this book.

-- (Minuteman@Concord.com), July 03, 1999.

Get yourself a decent semi-automatic rifle in .223 - the light recoil means even your daughter can become proficient with it, the ammo is cheap, and you can carry lots of it. A Ruger Mini-14 if you're on a budget, but preferably a Colt AR-15 or equivalent with heavy barrel if you can afford to lay out a grand or so. Bolt-actions are accurate, but the day may come when you'll appreciate the firepower of a gas-operated weapon.

Go with a 9mm for you and the wife - accurate, modest recoil. S&W makes good ones, personally I avoid Glocks like the plague. Avoid any magnum cartridge or the .45 auto, unless you don't mind missing what you're shooting at. These big guns require LOTS of practice to become expert with.

As for Kristi's comments re: .22 caliber: "As an EMT I can tell you (even without looking up ballistic data) that .22 LR can kill and does so frequently - not a lot of initial "stopping power" but once inside the body can do a lot of damage."

Typical EMT hubris. Kristi, the point being made is that even a .22 LR will not reliably go through a heavy winter jacket, shirt and thermal underwear. It's not getting INTO the body, comprende?

-- capper (--@-.-), July 03, 1999.

This kind of question always generates a wide variety of opinion. First rule is: if you can't hit the target then the weapon is useless. Pistols are very difficult weapons to handle with accuracy in high stress/more than 5 yards range situations. My wife loves her Glock 26 9mm. Loaded with +P ammo it has 93% of the stopping power of a .45. The Glock has never jammed! .38 revolver is very reasonable alternative. The rest of your weapons are fine. Still, I like my SKS and my Chinese version will group 3" at 100 yards with iron sites. Beware of old 7.62 ammo - is performance can be very questionable.

-- RD. ->H (drherr@erols.com), July 03, 1999.

Mr Williamson,

Handguns? If you won't practice get revolvers, .357 magnum Smith & Wesson 66 comes to mind. Lots of police trade in's in the 300.00 range on the market today. You can also get a Marlin 1894CS in .357 mag which will do what most people think a pistol in that caliber will do. Good Urban assault rifle.

If you will practice I'd go with a Browning Hipower(P-35). It's got the 13round magazine and a good pedegree. Also it's got lots of magazines out there and lots of spare parts.

Rifles? Long Range? You never said what that was. Where I live 600Yds is not excessive. Since you said your wife was small I'd go with an AR-15. You can go 500+ yards with it and It won't beat small framed people up.

You should shoot the Defender prior to buying it. Lots of people don't have strong enough hands to handle the recoil. In this case I'd fit the wife with her own shotgun.

If you want more info contact me at my hotmail address.

-- nine (nine_fingers@hotmail.com), July 03, 1999.

Everyone:

Thanks for all of the good advice. I think we will go with the S&W .357, that was what we were looking at at the store yesterday.

Yes, the old 30-06 with 180 grain bullets does have some stopping power.

I was looking at the Norinco/Remington's as well as the Mossbergs. We have a couple of nice gun stores here.

I see 2-4 of the revolvers, 2-3 more .22 rifles, 3 of the 12 gauge shotguns, and another 30-06. I really do want to keep the number of calibers/gauges to a minimum. If things go real bad, however, I don't want ANYONE outside the house unarmed. Shotgun and pistol, probably.

I'm still open for suggestions, and I'm sure others out there are also interested.

-- Jon Williamson (pssomerville@sprintmail.com), July 03, 1999.

Stick to NATO types. 9mm, .223, .308, 12 gauge. Anything else you are taking chances on the future availability of ammo.

Other popular sizes are: 30-30, 30-06, .45.

I would avoid .40, .357, etc. I just don't think that if TSHTF, you will be able to get ammo. Unless you reload.

-- Villain (villain@thedoghousemail.com), July 04, 1999.

I'd go with the 9mm auto for a handgun, preferably a beretta, taurus 92-99, or browning hi-power. If it's a browning get one of the older ones with the steel frame, it'll last a lot longer. A lot of people think a 9mm doesn't have much stopping power, but from personal experience I can tell you that is pure bull. I have stopped 400 lb. wild hog with one shot to the head with my taurus using federal hydra- shock and the hardball ammo will blow all the way through a car, while the .45 acp will knock a dent in it and fall on the ground. And yes I have owned a half dozen colt government .45's and they pretty much suck. Off the shelf they will invariably jam with either hollowpoints or hardball but in no case will they funtion reliably with both. A Taurus 9mm will digest anything you feed it and laugh, while holding 16 rounds. My other favorite carry gun is a Smith and Wesson model 57 in .41 magnum, but it aint for everyone. However if you feel the need to decapitate your opponents it will do the job nicely, with about half the percieved recoil of a .44 magnum.

For a rifle the Ar-15 family is unquestionably the way to go. Military ammo and spare parts will not only fit the rifle, the spare parts will upgrade you to select fire capability and take only minimum skills to install. .223 ammo in softpoint is extremely deadly out to 300 yards, and will get the job done out to around 700 yards if you shoot the heavier 63 or 70 grain bullets. AK style weapons are nice, I have one myself, but the ammo will become unavailable real quick if things get ugly. For long range work the 30-06 is a good weapon, but I would prefer a 7mm magnum, 300 winmag, or plain old .270 winchester. Remember you can't hit it if you can't see it so invest in a QUALITY high power variable scope and a solid set of mounts. Accuracy between different rifles of even the sme model varies greatly, don't buy one till you have tried it out. Used is the only route to go here. Try some of the ones your buddies at the range have for sale, and make sure they shoot as advetised. I have seen a lot of off the shelf name brand bolt action rifles that wouldn't group less then 3 inches at 100 yards off sandbags with a scope. Totally useless past 300 yards. Never buy a ruger mini 14, had two and they are inaccurate as hell. Glocks are not for beginners. The bastardized trigger pull which is neither single nor double action is extremely inaccurate, especially under stressful situations. Even in slow paced target fire they are hard to control and my Taurus 99 will eat one for lunch every time. If it sounds like I'm pushing the Taurus, I am. Mine has had over 3000 rounds run through it, lives under the seat of my pickup, and has never jammed no matter how much dirt and crud got into it. Reliability, power and accuracy are the name of the game in defensive handgunning.

-- Nikoli Krushev (doomsday@y2000.com), July 04, 1999.

Depends on where you are planning on using your guns.

If you expect close quarters in your house, use small caliber (.380, .22) as the bullet won't go through three or four walls and possibly hit the ones you are trying to defend! (plus the neighbors, their dog, and the farmer three blocks away).

You've a nice cache of arms anyway, but maybe a nice close quarters shotgun would be a .410. Not many people think of it, but I'm sure it would work very well at less than 10 yards. Compact, easy to handle, hide, and your wife could use it as well.

If you need to reach out and touch someone, the rifle you have would seem to work well.

I have a .380 that's very compact. But it's loud as hell and I've shot nice 9mm with less kickback (well...they are heavier!).

But hey, it sounds like you have it under control, though.

-- JAW (clueless@pollyanna.com), July 04, 1999.

Hello again,

Sorry Capper, it is not my "EMT hubris" that makes me think that 22 LR kills folks - peeling a winter jacket, flannel shirt and thermal underwear off a dying man shot several times in the chest by a 22 LR revolver so we could evaluate him before loading him onto the helicopter convinces me. Yes, he died enroute. Also have put many rounds into wet telephone books, averaging 8 to 12 inches before stopping. A friend of mine (sargeant in the local S.O.) said it's not the larger caliber handguns they are so worried about when entering homes, it is the lousy little 22's that have such high velocity they can penetrate their protective gear. No, I am not saying that 22 LR is an ideal personal protection round but lumping it together with 25 acp is not even close to accurate. Yes, 25 acp is notorious for being stopped due to the very slow velocity.

Jon, it sounds like you are making good choices. I am no expert but had to explore this subject seriously for my own family as well. Let's hope this is all just for an "insurance policy". :)

-- Kristi (securx@succeed.net), July 04, 1999.

Kristi:

.22 LR will go through such clothing, but not consistently... that's the whole point. Just 'cause you happened on someone who died from a .22 doesn't mean that one should rely on such a round for personal defense. Short of a well-placed head shot, the .22 isn't a stopper - a killer, yes - but NOT a stopper. That's a big consideration if you're in a do-or-die situation. Plenty of folks have been killed by perps AFTER they emptied a magazine-full of .22 LR into them.

As far as being so concerned with "lousy little 22's that have such high velocity they can penetrate their protective gear", I'd like to know just what type of "protective gear" is threatened by .22 rimfire, while impervious to centerfire ammunition. It just doesn't make sense to me.

-- capper (--@-.-), July 04, 1999.

There was a drug deal gone bad in our small town. The "buyer" shot the "seller" three times with a .25 cal. pistol. The seller died on route to the hospital from those "small" gun shot wounds. What happened to the buyer? The seller grabed his .45 after being shot three times by the .25, put one shot in the buyers head, he died instantly. A .22 and .25 can kill, a .45 will kill.

My weapon of choice: 12 gauge shotgun with 8 round capacity loaded with 00 buckshot. Ultimate in stopping power, 50 yard range (self defense range), point and shoot is somewhat forgiving. Downside: hard to manuver in tight quarters (mine has a 20 in barrel with a pistol grip which helps)

-- Bill (y2khippo@yahoo.com), July 04, 1999.

Bill's tale of the drug deal shootout says it all: stopping power is what counts! When you shoot somebody, you want them to stop, cease, and desist -- whether they die or not is immaterial. Handguns, due to their low velocity, are generally poor manstoppers unless you go for the larger calibers. If you have already decided on a revolver for your handgun, why not take what you intended to do with the .357 magnum shooting .38 special, but extended it to the .44? That is, get a .44 magnum (heavy frame) revolver but shoot .44 special ammo to reduce the recoil. (Remington's 44 S&W SPECIAL 246 GRAIN LEAD RN would be a good match here.) Now you have a very managable handgun with a manstopping caliber.

Like most everyone else says, absolutely a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with #4 (or 00) buckshot is the best close quarters weapon you can have. Additionally, if you have a short barrel (18" minimum by law) and pistol grip with either no stock or a folding stock, it becomes very manuverable if you are moving within the rooms of a house. Definitely try to get an extended magazine so you can get 7 or 8 shot capacity. I have both a Remington 870 and a Mossberg 500A. They are both great, though I tend to lean a shade more towards the 870.

Regarding rifles: Forget the muzzleloaders, obviously. The 30-06 bolt action (similar to a Mauser that I have) certainly is an excellent manstopper, but the slowness of re-chambering a round plus the limited capacity makes it questionable for home defense use. In spite of a decade of restrictive laws trying to outlaw assault rifles, you can still, today, legally buy a good, affordable one of excellent HK 91 quality, rather than the Mini-14 and AR-15 ones that have been recommended. You do have to work at it a little, though (limited to "used" parts in many instances). Once the "Preparation Only Please" forum starts up, I'll post a thread on how I recently was able to do this.

Good luck!

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), July 04, 1999.

Folks,

Short range pieces I am comfortable with: 9mm Hi Point carbines (pair) these are NOT high volume guns as they Do tend to warm up a bit under high volume work. My bride and I have worn in the clips, and the pieces work out quite well in trems of 50 yd accuracy ( I DID say SHORT RANGE), as a playing card covers the off-hand groups.

HAnd gun, I am happy with my Glock 22. Can't see what the compensator barrel would do to improve it, but then again, the last time I ahd mine out,I worked a Model 19 (9mm) and its recoil was noticeably sharper than my 40 S&W.. I've also been saitsfied with a Charter Backup in 38 which sneaks into my slacks now and again. STILL haven't exercised the Stevens 32 Long yet. Haven't secured the rear sight.

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), July 05, 1999.

Aug.99 issue of Handguns magazine, there's an article by Chuck Taylor, who decided a while back to see how tough a Glock 17 really is. He shot the first 10,000 rounds without cleaning it. He had two failures to feed, due to the springs breaking in the magazines, after which he loaded them to only 15 rounds instead of full 17. Other than that, no problem, just slowed down a bit. After 10,000 rounds, he started cleaning it, and had no further malfunctions for the next 155,000 rounds! He abused it horribly. He fired 750 rounds by emptying a magazine rapid-fire, throwing the gun in the snow for 20 minutes, and repeating. On a trip to Hawaii he left it submerged in seawater for a week. He ran tap water over it, put it in his freezer for a week, pulled it out and fired it. He's dunked it in mud and sand, and fired all sorts of ammo through it. Never a problem.

I would have to disagree on Glock accuracy and trigger. I think it must depend, like any gun, on how it fits your particular hand. In my case, I took a combat pistol course a couple months ago, borrowing a Glock 19 for the course. Had never fired one (and had limited shooting experience in general). At the end of the day I was doing fast draws and hitting two steel plates twice each in rapid fire at 7 yards. It felt very natural. It's easy to use, no manual safety just pick it up and shoot, just like a revolver. Under stress it's easy to forget the safety, in fact in the course a couple guys did just that.

Someone mentioned the Sigma .380, which is a sweet little gun, but also (unless they've changed it) has a zinc slide which is only rated to take 2000 rounds (or might have been 3000). Personally I want to practice a lot and know the gun won't be bothered.

A useful accessory: in this course we did some night shooting. It's really hard, and none of us were hitting our targets much. Until one guy went "plink plink plink plink." The reason--he had night sights. Those little glowing dots make a big difference.

-- Shimrod (shimrod@lycosmail.com), July 05, 1999.

At the risk of upsetting the more touchy feely pc types.You might want to consider cocealibility as a factor for handguns.Ya just don't know what kind of world we're moving into.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), July 05, 1999.

You may be able to load the 12 gauge shotguns, or at least one of the contenders, lightly enough to reduce the worry about recoil. There are some specialty loads down to 2=" shells with reduced recoil and small shot. Up to 15 or 20 yards it won't really matter what shot you use if you hit someone (buckshot or No. 7) - it won't have spread too far to have the desired effect. However, the smaller shot won't penetrate as far through buildings if you miss - keep the buckshot for outdoor use if you can. It may be worth making sure that any additional shotguns you purchase can handle short shells and light loads.

For the rifles, have you considered the .303 British? As I understand it, they and their ammunition are very reasonably priced in the USA - enough so that you can afford to buy multiples. Bolt action, very accurate (my uncle used to shoot a standard one competitively using iron sights out to 1100 yards), 10 shot magazine standard and I understand you can get larger, ballistics up near the 30-06 and ahead of the .308/7.62mm Nato but with a less abrupt shoulder on the cartridge (better feeding, brass lasts longer for re-loading), almost the same bullets as the 30-06, rifle comes with a built-in peep (ghost-ring) sight. However, DON'T get the jungle carbine; and do appreciate that if you want to fit telescopic sights you'll need a special adaptor.

Basically, if you can't hit it, then there's not much point in shooting at it. If it takes reducing recoil, or even using a smaller calibre, to let someone hit the target, then that's what you've got to do. It's better to be able to hit the target with a .22 rimfire than miss with a larger calibre. If you do your own reloading then you needn't worry about recoil - just back off on the charge (and possibly shot/bullet weight) until it's comfortable - most shots are taken wayyyyy under the maximum range, so reducing velocity by say 300 fps isn't going to have any practical effect (assuming that you're using a manually-operated action, or that you don't go under some critical pressure for a gas-operated self-loader). You could reduce a .303 or .308 or 30-06 down to 30-30 ballistics or even less for your ladies, and it would still be a killer way out to past where most people can shoot accurately. Heck, you could even reduce them to 7.62/39mm ballistics and still count on hurting your target severely some of the time. In fact, this has the same effect as using .38 Special ammo in a .357 Magnum revolver (by the way, if you get those make sure you get several speed-loaders).

Regards.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), July 05, 1999.

What do you folks recommend in .223? I've heard bad things from many sources about the reliability of M-16's and thus probably AR-15's. I've heard from one source that Mini-14's are not accurate. Is that true? If so what is a good but not too expensive .223 ?

-- (y2kbiker@worldnet.att.net), July 06, 1999.