There is some information about Jesus as a child and then bsasically nothing until He's 30. Where was He, or does anybody know?

-- Ellen K Hornby (dkh@canada.com), July 05, 1999

Answers

The Scripture and Apostolic Tradition are silent on this time. There are some early writings that speak of this time but they have not been accepted as authentic by the Catholic Church.

Br. Rich S.F.O.

-- Br. Rich S.F.O. (repsfo@prodigy.net), July 05, 1999.

Some of the historical/mystcal writers have suggested Christ live among the Essenes for a long period of time. I would like to thonk is true. =Peace=Jean

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), July 05, 1999.

I think he's in Nazareth with his family.

-- julian Antonio pacificador (babytac@goplay.com), July 06, 1999.

Maybe he went backpacking...

-- Matthew (mdpope@hotmail.com), July 11, 1999.

You can read "Poem of the Man-God" by Maria Valtorta. I am in Volume 5 (it is 7 books contained in 5 volumes) and explores and discussed deeply the life of Christ from before the Virgin Mary is conceived until after the Assumption of Mary. It describes "the Hidden Life" of Jesus before his public ministry. There are conflicting opinions on the authenticity of Maria's visions and dictations, but I personally believe they are true and the Blessed Mother has said at Medjugorie (spelling?) this work is true. Peace be with you.

-- LorriAnn (latornay@aol.com), July 15, 1999.

It should be noted for the benefit of non-Catholics that no private revelation, even if it is alleged to be from the Blessed Virgin Mary or from Jesus Himself, is binding on any Catholic. We are only bound by the Church to believe what has been publicly revealed to God's People in the deposit of faith handed on by the Apostles; that deposit was complete at the death of the last Apostle and will not be added to prior to the Second Coming.

Catholics are permitted to believe that approved apparitions, such as those of Lourdes and Fatima, are authentic. Medjugorie [sp?] is not approved.

This will seem to some non-Catholics to be too much and by some Catholics to be wrongly diminishing the apparitions. But it's important to keep the teaching of the Church on such things clear in our minds.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), July 16, 1999.

Just out of curiosity, anyone know the current status of Medjugorie? Last I heard, the "visions" were still occurring (with messages being posted on the internet), but the internal strife in Yugoslavia has prevented formal church inquiries. If memory serves correctly, a bishop in Yugoslavia is very much against the visions due to increasingly conflicting reports from the "visionaries" and due to some of the messages contradicting Catholic doctrine/dogma etc.

-- David Bowerman (dbowerman@blazenet.net), July 16, 1999.

You've got the details right, David. It is important to note that the Church never rules on these things until after the apparitions cease. This is to prevent something weird coming along after a ruling has been made and messing things up.

I have very mixed feelings about Medjugorie. I have quite a number of friends and acquaintences who have been there and have experienced serious conversions as a result. These are conversion to deeper relationship to Christ, not to unbalanced focus on the Mother of God so they appear to be very genuine acts of the Holy Spirit. It is said that authentic Marian devotion always points us toward her Son, Jesus; in that regard I've seen much good in the Christ-focus coming out of what started as a Marian interest. On the other hand, I am personally concerned about some of what has allegedly been said there.

Frankly I think these things can be a real mix. I believe that the Blessed Virgin Mary does in fact reveal herself to individuals; I think the credentials of the approved apparitions are excellent. On the other hand, if there is real good coming from something like that you can be sure that Satan would love to get in there and spread confusion and error; so things could get tainted and "spoil the whole batch" as it were.

I personally do not spend a lot of time finding out what was said at any of the Marian apparitions, approved or not, because I already have God's Word in the Scriptures, sacred Tradition, the Magisterium of the Church and most important of all, God's Incarnate Word in the Holy Eucharist. I feel no need for any other "revelations".

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), July 16, 1999.

Regarding Marian followers my being one of I trust in Our Holy Mother's continued efforts to bring Her Children close to Christ as that is Her function in the Church.+Peace+

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), July 16, 1999.

There have been no conflicting reports by the visionaries in Medjugorje... There has never been a message, attributed to The Blessed Mother in Medjugorje, reported by the visionaries that contradicts Catholic doctrine or dogma. The bishop who has been referred to here has been opposed to the alledged apparitions for many years, however, John Paul II himself, has been unofficially quoted as praising the fruits of whatever it is that is occurring in Medjugorje.

The Church cannot, and will not approve these, or any apparitions as long as the apparitions continue. There are many, many books available that pertain to the alleged apparitions in Medjugore. If you are interested in reading any I recommend "The Message", written by Wayne Wieble, a non-Catholic (Lutheran, I believe).

-- Mary...Catholic (dangato@earthlink.net), July 17, 1999.

Mary, not to belabor the point, but to demonstrate that I was not just making up deflammatory statements regarding Medjugorje, perhaps this a few illustrations will suffice.

According to visionary Maria Pavlovic and later confirmed through visionary Vicka Ivankovic, the book entitled Poem of the Man-God was endorsed by the "Virgin of Medjugorje" as being "good Christian literature".

This 1900 page book was written in 1947 by Maria Valtorta who claimed to have received it through divine dictation (an occultic reference to an evil spirit dwelling within the writer who uses the writer to record the manuscript). The book contradicts New Testament teachings about Jesus, Old Testament teachings about Adam and Eve and is generally considered vulgar, blasphemus and fraudulent by all Christians. It was placed on the Vatican's Index of Forbidden Books on December 16, 1959 under the authority of Pope John XXIII. The official church ban was confirmed in 1985 by Jospeh Cardinal Ratzinger, the head of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Father Mitchell Pacwa has also denounced Poem of the Man-God and has stated that if Medjugorje is to have any credibility as a potentially authentic apparition, then the visionaries must respond in obedience to the church's official teaching and reject the book.

In my opinion, even if they reject the book at this late date despite numerous calls for them to do so, it should call into question the validity of the apparitions in every Christian's mind.

A similar incident occurred in 1981 after a priest asked the visionaries, "Are all religions good?". Their answer was that the lady says, "All religions are good before God". Follow-up messages stated that the lady said, "you are not a Christian if you do not respect other religions" and "division among the religions is caused by man, not God." Such statements have disturbed many Catholic clergy who would otherwise like to endorse the apparitions.

There is much more if you'd like to do some digging. But that's enough for me. I just wanted to clarify that I had reason for making my statement.

-- David Bowerman (dbowerman@blazenet.net), July 17, 1999.

Hi David... I am, by no means, very educated on the subject of Medjugorje. I thank you for your response to my remarks, and would like to do further research. Where can I find more about the "Poem of the Man-God", and what was said about it by the visionaries in Medjugorje?

I apologize if it appeared I was accusing you of "rabble-rousing". I am new to this forum and am, admittedly, a little sensitive. I have followed along some of the debates in here and have just about decided that I am in way over my head here. There are some very intelligent and well-spoken (although misguided, in my opinion) individuals participating in here. The insults and raging do cloud the messages, however.

You, David, appear to handle yourself, for the most part, like a gentleman, and I thank you again for your response to my comments.

-- Mary...Catholic (dangato@earthlink.net), July 18, 1999.

Hi Mary,

Thank you for your comments. I understand how you feel. These internet forums bring together quite a dynamic mix of personalities, beliefs and intellects. It can be overwhelming at times. I often find myself disagreeing with something and would like to express that, but don't feel I have enough information to base my disagreement on. And these folks will clock you on it if you haven't done your homework :-) And rightfully so. If I as a visitor in a Catholic forum can't substantiate my statements, I should clarify that in my post and make sure I state that it is my opinion only or be prepared to back it up. In regards to my first post above, that is the kind of qualification I was trying to insert. My information on Medjudgorje is minimal. I've read a few dozen messages first-hand on the Medjudgorje web site and read a few references to the apparitions in other texts I have in my library.

In regards to your post, I didn't consider it an accusation of rabble-rousing so much as a statement of your opinion, which is cool. When I read it, I initially didn't think it appropriate to respond. You are, after all, entitled to your opinion :-) And I do not like to unnecessarily stir up trouble, but I realized that, in light of the earlier endorsement of the Poem of the Man-God, that I should at least post what I know about it as a warning to those who may be tempted to accept it as truth when in reality it's origins are either complete fiction on the part of the author or a product of demonic inspiration. So if you hadn't posted your message, I never would have thought to clarify that . . . so, thank you.

By the way, information on to the book Poem of the Man-God as it relates to Medjudgorje can be obtained from Father Mitchell Pacwa, S.J., Professor of Theology at Loyola University of Chicago. Photocopies of his documentation can be requested by contacting the Christian Research Institute, P.O. Box 500, San Juan Capistrano, CA 92693 (a $5 donation is requested for copying and shipping costs). I hope this helps.

As to questioning whether or not to participate, if a vote from one of the "misguided's" counts, please continue. :-) Your thoughts and opinions are always welcome and whatever information you can add to the discussions is always appreciated. Please feel free to jump right in.

-- David Bowerman (dbowerman@blazenet.net), July 18, 1999.

Thanks David!

-- Mary...Catholic (dangato@earthlink.net), July 18, 1999.

Just for the record, Fr. Mitch Pacwa is no longer at Loyola University. He's at University of Dalls. We had the great priviledge of getting to know Fr. Pacwa while he (and we) were in Chicago; we had him to our home several times and he helped us greatly in our journey toward the Catholic Church.

Anybody who says that there aren't any great Jesuits anymore just don't know Fr. Pacwa!

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), July 18, 1999.

David - my referral to the Jesuits was not to say the are not some very fine ones as I know one for sure. My point being the Order as whole have put themselves above others which is wrong to my mind.

I attended Conzega College - Spokane Wa. and so first hand the Order. Again as a Fransiacan I follow a different path.+Peace+

-- jean bouchardRC (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), July 18, 1999.

Basically, the Bible does not say where Jesus was or what he did from the time he was 12 years old to 30 years old. Although there are many theories about this 'time gap', one possible explaination can be deduced by knowing Jewish culture at the time of Christ.

Being born a Jew and having Jewish parents, he no doubt grew up learning the ways of Judaism: attending the synagogues, participating in Jewish festivals and activities, and traveling to the Temple in Jerusalem for the annual Passover. Jesus, no doubt, learned the Torah and the other books of the Hebrew canon, such as Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, etc. His keen knowledge of the Hebrew writings is indicated in the incident at the Temple, when being just 12 years old, Jesus was in a deep discussion with some priests and rabbis. These older men were astounded at this boy's knowledge.

In addition, being the oldest boy, Jesus no doubt learned the trade and skill of his father Joseph, which was carpentry. It was customary in those times for most oldest sons to learn their father's trade, so that they could support the family in case something happened to the father. Hence this explaination gives some insight as to why Jesus is refered to at times as a 'carpenter.'

Likely, Jesus was involved in carpentry up until he was anointed at 30 years of age. And of course, one can read the rest of his story in the Gospels.

-- Hugo Mitre (hugmit@cs.com), October 26, 2000.

Dear Mary and David,

I happened to find myself on this page by chance, and I came across your comments on Maria Valtorta and Medjugorie.

David, with all due respect for your opinions, nowhere in Vatican investigations was Maria Valtorta linked to the occult or considered satanically inspired. Your allegations amaze me.

Likewise, the messages from Medjugorie are anything but contradictory. But this claim from you didn't surprise me - many people state the Bible itself is a myriad of contradictions. Yet this is the same Bible you call your mainstay.

You are correct when you say we should adhere to the Catholic Church's teachings. I agree with this. This is the papal infallibility we find in Mathew 16:19.

But the Pope's infallibility is singular - what he binds, is correct and true. But this does not mean anything he does not immediately bind, is false. Fatima was also thoroughly investigated prior to approval. Yet it was approved. Many people believed when it was too late - when the apparitions were over.

I believe people should feel free to investigate private revelations and weigh the messages for themselves. The key with private revelations is to look at the fruits. What are the fruits? What does this message ask you to do?

In Medjugorie, we are asked to 'Pray, fast and be converted'. Even more, we are asked to fast on 'bread and water' if we can. Of course this message will receive opposition! How many people do you know who are willing to make this loving sacrifice for God?

Likewise, concerning Maria Valtorta, if you can read this literature and it can increase your love for God, how is it detrimental? Again, ask yourself, what are the fruits? Does it destroy your faith - take away your peace? Or does it increase your love and action for God?

David, I believe you have good intentions and it's wonderful you have the true, apostolic faith in your life. But sometimes I think we need to allow others the freedom to explore their faith. Perhaps they want to delve deeper, come to know God more intimately. Maybe their spiritual path is different to yours.

For those who remain with the Church's teachings, I say, well done! I encourage them in this. For those who investigate deeper to where their hearts lead them, I say, "Thank you Father for revealing Yourself to little children, and for keeping these things from the learned."

God bless and thank you,

Dana

-- Dana (dana_01@start.com.au), April 15, 2002.

Hello, Dana.

Don't take David Bowermans comments to personal about Medjugorje! He is a very nice man, but he does not believe in our holy Catholic relegion. I think if you go back and read most of the old posts, you will see him trying to get his doubts across, like usual!

I look at him as " Doubting David". But he is a gentleman, and is very knowledgable of the Bible, but he belongs to the 95 year old pentecostal denomination. He has even talked negative about Our Lady's promise of those who wear the brown scapular. David, has, said, that those are "the words of satan himself"! He is not in a postion, to say, one way or the other, about Medjugorje.

God bless you.

David S

-- David S (asdzxc8176@aol.com), April 15, 2002.

Hi, Dana.
You wrote: "Fatima was also thoroughly investigated prior to approval. Yet it was approved. Many people believed when it was too late -- when the apparitions were over."

When it comes to Fatima, it is never "too late." Oh, sure, it was too late for those people to be physically present during one of the few apparitions, but that is not important at all. The important thing is their subsequent living out of the Fatima message.

Similarly, it is not important for us to visit alleged current sites of visions. I have never been to any of them, despite being a fervent Catholic. And, if the visions should cease at one of them -- followed by Church approval -- I will not be saying, "Oh, no. Now I am 'too late.' I should not have sent those checks to help the needy contemplative nuns! I could have used that money for plane fare to Europe!" No. I will not then be "too late" to follow the message that was given at that site. And I will then be able to visit that site in the future, with confidence that its message is, as the Church says, "worthy of belief" (a confidence that we cannot yet have now).

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), April 17, 2002.

Dana,

My conclusions regarding the "Poem of the man-God" were indeed my own. I was taking the author at her word when she said it was given to her in a spiritual vision and that she was under some sort of spiritual power when she physically wrote it. When the contents of the books are read and clearly condemned by all Christians and especially the Catholic Church as blasphemy and heresy, then the true source of the work must either be from 1 of 3 choices:

1. the author contrived a total fiction written for profit sake 2. the author did write this as a result of a spiritual experience but the source of the experience could not be God because of the errors and heresies, so it must have been from the devil 3. the author is mentally ill and the book is a product of that illness

I chose to believe option # 2 mostly because the lies in the book came across as particularly satanic (e.g. Jesus is portrayed as a homosexual who chatters endlessly and who has to be taught and convinced that he is God and how he should act) - I considered posting some quotes to substantiate (especially the homosexual parts) but they are too offensive to post here; suffice it to say that the book clearly writes of a homosexual relationship between Jesus and James and also Jesus and John. I don't know about you, but that speaks of a demonic source to me and I had trouble even reading some of the excerpts from the books just to prepare my response to this thread, it was spiritually evil material.

I believe most of the Catholic leaders who condemned the book chose option # 3, that she was mentally ill (as assessed by Cardinal Ratzinger). Either way, they maintain to this day that it is forbidden for a Catholic to read this book (or rather series of books). And the fact that the visions at Medjudgorie have endorsed it poses many problems for those who would otherwise like to believe.

As for evaluating the spiritual value of something based on your personal perceptions, that's a dangerous path of moral relativism. Does it help you to believe that Jesus was a practicing homosexual, which is what that book tries to state? Don't you see that such a lie conflicts with the truth that homosexuality is an abomination before God and that Jesus was without sin and could have no part in such things? So how could reading such garbage in any way helpful to your faith? We have sufficient revelation for our faith, Jesus made sure of that. We don't need demonic or gnostic lies to try to fill in the gaps for us.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), April 17, 2002.

David, I believe we are speaking about an entirely different 'Poem of the Man-God'.

I will keep you in my prayers.

God bless,

Dana

-- Dana (dana_01@start.com.au), April 26, 2002.

No, Dana. There is only one "Poem of the Man-God" -- the one by Maria Valtorta. (I believe that her name means "twisted valley.")

-- (@@@.@), April 27, 2002.

I agree with David on the question of Medjugorje and Maria Valtorta's book 'the Poem of the Man God'. I was in Medjugorje three times since 1989 and believed in it without asking any questions. But over the last few months i started to have doubts and began to do some digging. The fact that 'Our Lady' says that this particular book which was condemned by the Catholic Church, is okay to read is completely flying in the face of the Church. The humble handmaid of God telling us to be disobedient to the Church, I don't think so. This is dangerous stuff. One bad apple can destroy a whole barrel of good ones. I accept that there are good fruits but really there are also alot of questions that need to be asked and brought out in to the open.

-- Anne (ACahalan@vodafone.ie), August 07, 2004.

I noted the above contraversy and thought I might help provide an answer. Below is a link to a website outlining (through letters, etc. amongst Bishops) the channels that the work The Poem of the Man God has gone through in the eyes of the Church. It is a lot to read, but I hope it provides you with some information. I just happened to stumble upon your website when this opportunity to contribute came up. http://www.bardstown.com/%7Ebrchrys/Chrchval.html God Bless,

Kevin

-- Kevin (sullykm@yahoo.com), October 05, 2004.

I don't think the link came up properly:

http://www.bardstown.com/%7Ebrchrys/Chrchval.html

-- Kevin (sullykm@yahoo.com), October 05, 2004.

Wow, I didn't realize any of these old posts were still out there. Thought they were lost with the great purge a while back. Funny to see things I wrote over 5 years ago when I first tripped across this forum.

Just popped my head in to see what's up. Haven't visited for months. Hope everyone is well.

God bless.

David

-- non-Catholic Christian (dlbowerman@yahoo.com), October 05, 2004.