I was browsing through the bug out threads and I wanted to add a word of advice. If your thinking about including a firearm in your bug out bag (BOB) or your SUE (survival under extremes) then I have to say that you had better think twice.

If your carrying a firearm (rifle, shotgun, or pistol) for hunting, or if your carrying any of those for personal protection then you will have to be very careful where you go and who sees you. Let's say there are patrols of National Guardsmen roaming the cities and countries. If they see you with a weapon your going to have three options: 1.) Run and hope you escape. 2.) Give up your gun(s) and ammo, leaving yourself at their mercy. Or 3.) Use your firearm, possibly getting yourself in a situation that would be hopelessly doomed.

A patrol would be armed better than you and they would have the advantage of numbers. Even if your thinking of bugging out with many freinds the fact is you'll never come close to matching the forces of the organized authorities.

Let's face a grim fact here. If your out in the wilds and your unarmed your far less dangerous that if you've got a gun. You only paint a bullseye on your back when you pick up a firearm. For those of you who have just recently bought a rifle/pistol you had better think this through before you go walking about with one strapped across your back or hanging from your hip.

For those of you who fully intend on protecting themselves regardless of the circumstances then I wish you the best of luck. Just remember that gun ownership puts you in a very select group that will not be tolerated by the governing authorites in times of disaster.

Instead of lugging around heavy guns and surplus ammo you might seriously want to educate yourselves on the basics of snares, traps and pitfalls. They are easy to construct and with practice you can keep yourself fed without having to fire a single shot.

I write this because I myself have included a pistol in my Bug out Bag. I've been around guns since I was a little kid of nine years old. I am comfortable with them, and I am careful. But even so, in the thirty years I've owned guns, I have had three mishaps. Yes that is right , three. Any one of them could have killed me if luck had not been on my side.

So my last bit of advice is this: Beware the laws of averages. The longer you own, handle and rely on your guns the larger the odds are you'll have an accident. It's not a question of whether your a safe person or not. It's just a matter of time.

Please, if you can, consider an alternative to firearms. They are extremely dangerous in the hands of the inexperieced. Possessing one will raise alarm with authorities. And more importantly, if you pick up a gun sooner or later you'll have to use it. Make sure you have enough confidence to use it correctly and enough training to use it wisely. And above all make sure you always try to resolve a conflict without resorting to a gun.

(On a side not, I think the last sentence is reflective on the types of guns today. The auto loaders that fire a burst of five or ten bullets a second. To me that is indicative of how people "shoot first and ask questions later". If your going to resort to using a gun, make every bullet count. My father used to go hunting with just two bullets. One would be in the gun, and the other would be in his back pocket. He would say that you should never pull the trigger unless your sure you going to hit what your aiming for. And the second was just a backup to finish off the target. That should be a lesson for everyone.)

Thanks everyone. Good luck and God Bless!

-- Jack Gordon (TrnityTest@aol.com), July 06, 1999

Answers

> The auto loaders that fire a burst of five or ten bullets a second...

In what seems like a life time hobby, I need to correct the concepts about "auto loaders".

"Auto loaders" is a misnomer when used to describe how many shots are fired.

The correct and less misleading terms are automatics and semi- automatics. Both are normally auto loaders.

The automatic will fire *more* than one round with one depression of the trigger.

The semi-automatic will fire *only* one round with one depression of the trigger.

The distinction may seem strained to those new to the firearms subject. However the distinction is NOT trivial. Especially to the BATF and all who live in California.

I would buy a ticket to watch someone who can fire 5-10 rounds per second from a semi-automatic.

-Greybear

I know, picky, picky, picky.

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), July 06, 1999.

Your right Greybear,

I didn't mean to lump all the automatic weapons and *auto-loaders into the same category. I myself bought am *auto-loader. But I feel compelled to speak out against guns that can release more than one bullet with one squeeze of the trigger. It's wasteful and dangerous unless your in the combat zone and your only mission is to lay covering fire indiscriminatly against the enemy without trying to hit them.

But that is where I was trying to make a point. These days America has been sppon fed the notion that only "surpressing" fire is the best way to approach a gunfight. When in truth the sniper's credo "one shot, one kill" ideology is best in almost all circumstances.

Sorry for the mix-up with the semantics. From now on I'll just call fully automatic guns "assualt rifles". And semi-automatics "auto- loaders".

In the spirit of Greybear...(who is a personal favorite of mine among the forum),

Got a dictionary?

-- Jack Gordon (TrnityTest@aol.com), July 06, 1999.

GreyBear: I have seen it done, have you ever been to a IPSC match? Oh my, thats shooting! The top guns can draw and fire six rounds into the center of a target at seven yards in less than 1.25 seconds. When I was into it heavy (back in 94,95) I could do it in 1.75. The current national champ can draw fire one, reload, fire one in 1.4 seconds. Thats making A-zone hits.

Jack: We have a saying, "If you shoot enough, it's not if but when will you have an accidental discharge" That old saying, familiarity breeds contempt is true.

-- George in Ne.Pa. (grc0702@aol.com), July 06, 1999.

IPSC - sure. But I wasn't talking about race guns.

But then I guess that does count, technically :0)

-Greybear, whos one that too.

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), July 06, 1999.

I just purchased another weapon for hunting etc. I picked up an SKS which carries a high capacity of a reasonably high caliber (7.62 Nato) round. I'm not planning on stopping for any roadblocks, nor do I think there will be any that will be sustainable.

We barely had enough men and material to fight an ass backward third rate Communist bloc dictatorship. The reason we didn't want a ground war is because we didn't have the men for it. I honor the men and women who went forth and fought, don't get me wrong. But this idea that the military will be able to cordon off entire cities is a little bit of a stretch. I think they may try to keep things organized for a while, but I don't think they can pull off a full stop on all roads to Rome.

They simply won't have the manpower.

-- S. K. Simonov (g_gecko_69@hotmail.com), July 06, 1999.

I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but this is yet another example of why bugging out should be an Absolute Last Resort If All Else Fails -- not "Plan A"!! You can, even at this late date, buy rural property cheaply, and set up your Y2K survival site. You can, today, buy guns -- including decent assault rifles, if you are willing to look at American made "clones" that use original parts -- and prepare to defend. Stocking up means that you need a place to store -- hardly suitable for a "bug out bag".

If I am standing on a set of railroad tracks and a train is approaching -- I move! I don't stay there, and try to figure out how I am going to somehow survive getting run over (as some people who plan to stay in the large cities are apparently trying to do). I don't try to squeeze in between the tracks so that I might narrowly avoid getting squished (like the bug-outers are planning). I move!

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), July 06, 1999.

Folks, if you have to "bug out", you are a refuge. Plain and simple. You are not the top dog predator on the block. Think like a rabbit or a whitetail deer. The night and the dusk are your friends. You freeze when people are near. Avoid population centers, for there is nothing there for you. Avoid small towns, for there you are a stranger and automatically a suspect. If you must make a fire, keep it tiny. Sleep lightly, leave no signs. Don't form habits which can make you predictable. You are PREY....

-- Jon Williamson (jwilliamson003@sprintmail.com), July 06, 1999.

a refugee,or,a guerilla.depending on your mindset.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), July 08, 1999.

Zoobie:

I will go along with that, but a guerrilla normally is operating in/from territory they are familiar with, among people whose support they can more or less count on.

I was referring much more to a bug out where you find yourself on unfamiliar territory. That is NOT the time to get a Rambo complex. Bad enough to be homeless in the winter without adding being actively hunted to the bargain.

-- Jon Williamson (jwilliamson003@sprintmail.com), July 08, 1999.

zoobie,... I know you posted a legit response, but I had to laugh when I read it. Oh bother, does that mean I'm getting Y2K weird?

If I didn't have young ones to consider and protect, I would probably be easily tempted to the roving warfare mindset myself. I imagine there could be alot of frustrated and angry citizens at that point. I often think of a Mr. Decker post, wherein he stated that the best defense is to not be a target, and the futility of defending a fixed location. Alot to weigh and consider with young children.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), July 09, 1999.

One would think that S. K. Simonov, of all people, would know that

the SKS is chambered for 762x39, NOT 7.62x51 NATO aka 308 Win.

-- RT (Rngfr49@yahoo.com), December 28, 1999.