I must have phrased it wrong....

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I asked the question if the church ever believed in reincarnation---but I think I phrased it wrong. New question-Was reincarnation ever the accepted belief of the people who followed the word of Jesus and they lived around the time of say 1 to 350AD? Considering the fact that most of the world, at that time, and even now believes in reincarnation, it seems quite likely that at some time the early Christians would have believed this also. I know that a lot was written about the early years and that a lot of it isn't accepted by the church, so we really don't hear about anything unless you go digging for it. Actually my question about reincarnation is really a historical question and not really biblical. I've attended school at only Catholic schools and I didn't get a straight answer there, the nuns were either horrified by the question or they just danced around it. Now that I'm just a little shy of 50, I think it's about time I had the straight goods. We're taught that we have to be free from all sin to enter heaven. Most of us don't meet this so in comes the theory of limbo. Nowhere in the bible does Jesus talk of limbo. Therefore someone else has come up with this idea. Why is it that reincarnation is so far-fetched? I'm not talking about coming back as a cat or something. I'm talking about coming back because we haven't reached the level of perfection needed to enter heaven and be with God. Jesus said that there are many houses in His Fathers kingdom, so the ones closest to God would likely be the souls that are the most perfect. The kind of reincarnation I'm talking about is one that we would freely choose so that we might become more perfect, it wouldn't be like a punishment. If on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being the furthest from God and 10 being the closest, a person gets to 3. For some people that is the highest they can go, and they are perfectly happy there. But then there's others who could have easily gotten further up the scale, but didn't, either out of laziness or whatever. It's not that they're bad, but they could have been better. It's like the idea of the two buckets, one holds a gallon and the other one holds 5 gallons, which one is the fullest? Jesus said that man dies once and his soul is judged for what he did with his life. Why is it so ludicrous to think that the soul may choose to come back and live as a mortal and get judged on that life? Each life would be different so basically the saying of one life- one judgement is still the same. The only other option for all of us (the exception being those like Mother Teresa)is to go to some abstract place that Jesus never mentioned and wait in limbo- literally???????????????????

-- Ellen Hornby (dkh@canada.com), July 08, 1999

Answers

Ellen, I applaud your desire to know the truth. While there have been individual efforts throughout church history to try to reconcile reincarnation with the teachings of Jesus, such efforts have always failed and rightly so. They look to comments about Elijah and John the Baptist or Moses and Jesus and try to use the scriptures to justify their beliefs. But the simple truth is that the teachings of Jesus and the theory of reincarnation can never be reconciled. I do not believe that there has ever been any church acceptance of reinacrnation even before 350 AD.

As we mentioned in your prior thread, we have only one live to live. We are appointed to die only one time, and then face judgement. The reason for rejecting reincarnation is not because it is "far-fetched". It is because we accept only the truth that Jesus taught us. That indeed may run contrary to what the rest of the world believes, but that's expected. Jesus told us that we are not to accept the ways of the world and that the truth is a very narrow path that few will walk on.

As far being taught that we have to be free of all sin to enter heaven, there's a little more to it than that. First, let me add that I think you've hit on the crux of the matter with this statement. We do not and can not gain access to heaven by personally achieving holiness in our own strength and on our own merit. That is the very reason Jesus took the form of man and died on the cross. Jesus became the perfect sacrifice to pay the price for our sins. When we accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, and begin living for him, his blood cleanses us from sin. We gain access to heaven not because of our holiness, but because of Jesus's holiness. He freely gives us eternal life for those that embrace him and follow his ways.

Please carefully consider these verses from Paul's letter to the Ephesians (chapter2, verses 1-8): "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of the world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air [Satan], the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ and seated us with him in heavenly realms in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast."

Cool stuff, yes? So through faith in Jesus, we enter heaven. It is not something that we achieve or aspire to. But we must believe and embrace Jesus. Apart from Jesus, we are dead because we are trapped in sin and can never enter heaven. But in Jesus, we are free because he paid the price for us!

Trying to fit reincarnation into what Jesus said and did for us is like trying to tell someone that they must fly . . . but those in the reincarnation camp have to flap their arms as hard as possible to try to get airborn while those in Jesus's camp only have to climb onboard a jet by the name of Jesus. Perhaps a silly example, but it fits.

From a Christians perspective, reincarnation is silly, why would I want another life once I have embraced the life of Jesus? From a non-Christians perspective, reincarnation is tragic for three reasons (1) it's underlying assumption is that heaven can be achieved by human effort, (2)it teaches that you have more than one shot at it, so if you don't get it right, there's always the next life, and (3) it rejects Jesus and the price he already paid for them.

Bottom line Ellen is that reincarnation is a lie taught by the devil who desparately wants people to rebel against Jesus. Jesus Christ is the truth. The question is, who do you want to follow?

I hope this has helped some. I would encourage you to read the New Testament so you can learn the truth for yourself.

-- David Bowerman (dbowerman@blazenet.net), July 08, 1999.


A couple of add-on thoughts . . .

First, bold OFF. I hate when that happens :-))

Second, the verses I quoted provide a fourth reason why reinacrnation is tragic . . . apart from Jesus, we are under wrath. When we die and face judgement, we get to see that wrath first hand. The most tragic part of believing in reincarnation is that it leads to hell.

-- David Bowerman (dbowerman@blazenet.net), July 08, 1999.


Hi Ellen,

"New question-Was reincarnation ever the accepted belief of the people who followed the word of Jesus and they lived around the time of say 1 to 350AD? "

There were some that thought that we would be given new bodies at the resurection. The Church clearly delt with this in several Councils. Some do believe this now. But the Church teaches that, our souls are to be reunited with our bodies at the resurection.

"We're taught that we have to be free from all sin to enter heaven." Most of us don't meet this so in comes the theory of limbo."

I think you mean "Purgatory" You are correct that we must be free of sin and in a state of Sanctifying grace to enter Heaven.

Therefore someone else has come up with this idea. Why is it that reincarnation is so far-fetched? I'm not talking about coming back as a cat or something. I'm talking about coming back because we haven't reached the level of perfection needed to enter heaven and be with God.

Beacuse we are given this life to perfect ourselves with God's grace. He gives us many things to help us attain this goal, The Church and the Sacraments.

Jesus said that there are many houses in His Fathers kingdom, so the ones closest to God would likely be the souls that are the most perfect.

That is correct there are diffent levels in both Heaven and Hell.

Jesus said that man dies once and his soul is judged for what he did with his life. Why is it so ludicrous to think that the soul may choose to come back and live as a mortal and get judged on that life?

Because Jesus said "man dies once and his soul is judged" once not twice or three times.

The only option for us is to live our lives and ask God to help perfect us to immitate His Son Jesus Christ. The merits of the Cross are applied to us through Baptism. We are formed new and perfect in Baptism it is up to us to remain that way.

Br. Rich S.F.O. Each life would be different so basically the saying of one life- one judgement is still the same. The only other option for all of us (the exception being those like Mother Teresa)is to go to some abstract place that Jesus never mentioned and wait in limbo- literally???????????????????

-- Ellen

-- Br. Rich S.F.O. (repsfo@prodigy.net), July 08, 1999.


Hi Ellen,

"New question-Was reincarnation ever the accepted belief of the people who followed the word of Jesus and they lived around the time of say 1 to 350AD? "

There were some that thought that we would be given new bodies at the resurection. The Church clearly delt with this in several Councils. Some do believe this now. But the Church teaches that, our souls are to be reunited with our bodies at the resurection.

"We're taught that we have to be free from all sin to enter heaven." Most of us don't meet this so in comes the theory of limbo."

I think you mean "Purgatory" You are correct that we must be free of sin and in a state of Sanctifying grace to enter Heaven.

Therefore someone else has come up with this idea. Why is it that reincarnation is so far-fetched? I'm not talking about coming back as a cat or something. I'm talking about coming back because we haven't reached the level of perfection needed to enter heaven and be with God.

Beacuse we are given this life to perfect ourselves with God's grace. He gives us many things to help us attain this goal, The Church and the Sacraments.

Jesus said that there are many houses in His Fathers kingdom, so the ones closest to God would likely be the souls that are the most perfect.

That is correct there are diffent levels in both Heaven and Hell.

Jesus said that man dies once and his soul is judged for what he did with his life. Why is it so ludicrous to think that the soul may choose to come back and live as a mortal and get judged on that life?

Because Jesus said "man dies once and his soul is judged" once not twice or three times.

The only option for us is to live our lives and ask God to help perfect us to immitate His Son Jesus Christ. The merits of the Cross are applied to us through Baptism. We are formed new and perfect in Baptism it is up to us to remain that way.

Br. Rich S.F.O.

-- Br. Rich S.F.O. (repsfo@prodigy.net), July 08, 1999.


I agree completely with David on the theological and biblical difficulties with reincarnation. Reincarnation was never embraced by any significant group of Christians even in the first few centuries of the Church; it has always been seen as contrary to Scripture and Tradition.

Now, Ellen wrote:

<< Most of us don't meet this so in comes the theory of limbo. Nowhere in the bible does Jesus talk of limbo. Therefore someone else has come up with this idea. >>

For accuracy's sake we should not speak of "limbo" but "purgatory." You are exactly right as to the necessity of such an intermediate state of purification; Rev 21:27 says that no unclean or impure thing can enter fully into God's presence so it is necessary that we are cleansed from that attachment to sin which virtually all of us will die with. Hence the need for purgatory. The author of Hebrews speaks of the discipline of the Lord toward His children (Heb 12:5-6) so such a place of purification and indeed punishing disipline is not at all contrary to the finished work of Christ.

We've had several threads on the biblical and theological justification of purgatory but I'll briefly rehash the evidence here. The ancient Jews (and modern Jews, for that matter) had a solid belief in an intermediate state of purification after death. Evidence of this is found in Scripture in 2 Macc 12:45f. in which it is said to be "a holy and pious thought" to pray for the dead. This intermediate state is alluded to several times in the New Testament as well: If Matt 5:25-26 has allusion to the Final Judgment (as is likely from the context) then Jesus' talk of "not get[ting] out until you have paid the last farthing" suggests an intermediate state of discipline. St. Paul speaks in 1 Cor 3:13 of purifying fire after death. St. Peter speaks in 1 Pet 3:19-20 of an intermediate state at least for Old Covenant believers until the time of Christ.

Simply put, Christians have always believed in an intermediate state in which one is purified from sin. They have never believed in reincarnation in which one is given a "second (or third, or fourth, or....) chance."

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), July 08, 1999.



Ellen,

I am certainly not an expert in understanding all of scripture. This is the blight of all sinful humanity. We see everything through a veil. It would seem to me that the works spoken of in 1Cor.3 1-23 are about the doctrine of the church and difficuties in divisions. The good work is the truth of the gospel and the unworthy work is the false doctrine of the wise of this world, which is foolishness to God. It has nothing to do with the works of the flesh apart from preaching the true gospel of Christ These verses have to do with the leaders of the church and the followers of their factions. These leaders and their false doctrine will bear great judgement on that day and some will narrowly escape from the fires of hell, but the foundation spoken of in verse 11 will save them.

-- Pamela (Rosylace@aol.com), July 09, 1999.


Pamela,

"It has nothing to do with the works of the flesh apart from preaching the true gospel of Christ" This is correct however your wording could be misunderstood to mean that nothing we do as humans,(works of the flesh) has any bearing. Our works are always judged in relation to Christ, never apart, but they are our works.

Br. Rich S.F.O.

-- Br. Rich S.F.O. (repsfo@prodigy.net), July 10, 1999.


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