Am about to give up on this one but thought someone might have a suggestion. I have an elderly relative living with me who needs supplemental oxygen. He normally has a selection of compressed oxygen and also an oxygen concentrator which supplies most of his needs.

An extended power outage would quickly exhaust the gas supply and we might not be able to get in to town to get more. The oxygen concentrator pulls beaucoup power (even the so-called "portables"). A gas or diesel generator is not good since the requirement is constant; I have talked to a technician who discouraged even thinking of solar or wind. I don't have the multi-thousands of dollars for a steam generator (nor probably enough wood to keep it stoked).

Are there any possibilities I have overlooked?

-- Gypsy (GypsiGold@aol.com), July 08, 1999

Answers

Gypsy,

I am sorry I can't help you with ideas for the oxygen - pretty scarey. My first thought was to do whatever possible to improve your relative's health to reduce the need for the supplemental oxygen. I know that might sound silly and that some folks have already tried their best but MANY folks I know on home O2 still smoke, are obese, don't stay physically active, etc..... I don't feel so sorry for them - they are making a choice. I also know many who still need O2 even if you maximize vitality of the patient. Just thought I would add the thought to the stewpot.

Planning to minimize the mental/physical stress that the person goes through will minimize the need for supplemental oxygen as well. Perhaps plans to move to safer place well before worrisome time, fostering peace of mind by prepping with foods, etc. will help them not worry so much (mental stress can dramatically increase one's need for O2 - increased heartrate, etc.).

Sorry to ramble, hope this is helpful (even a little bit). Good luck!

-- Kristi (securx@succeed.net), July 08, 1999.

Kristi, I've been a Registered Nurse for 32 years, worked mostly in ICU'S, Hospice or research at the NIH. If I had a lung condition like emphysema or COPD,Chronic Bronchitis, etc and was dependant on lo dose O2 supplements, I would do the following: 1) Learn and do postural drainage and percussion on my lungs first thing in the morning to get up all the "goop" thats collected overnight. Use a nebulizer or inhale steam etc, to moisten the mucous and make it easier to cough up. Consider natural expectorants like potasium iodide (SSKI}or stock up on plain Robitussin. drink plenty of fluids (unless conjestive heart failure is part of th problem), just keep the mucous loose and easy to cough up. Use a slant board when there's a lot of mucous and not enough energy or wind to cough it up. This is morning housecleaning and can make some 02 dependant people able to go without. Also, if there is any weight to loose, loose it. It's like carring around a sack of rocks that tire you out.

Good Luck. Zeda

-- Zeda (rickster@n-jcenter.com), July 08, 1999.

My Father-in Law required oxygen also, and coincidently I was purchasing company welding supplies and gsses from the local manufacturer. Prices? Welding oxygen $xx/container. Medical oxygen $xxxxx/container. So, ovbious question is "what's the dif? Answer - same oxygen except medical is filtered for contaminents one additional time, and stored in a _sterilized_ bottle. Thats it. Your friendly neighborhood mechanic buys oxygen, and so can you. The risk is that you should provide additional filtering that is practical given the circumstance. Long term emphysema patients would require a bit more consideration than a short term heart attack victim. That's my practical outlook. Now you medicine 101 grads can point out the error of my way.

-- A. Hambley (a.hambley@usa.net), July 08, 1999.

Generator plus small inverter, batteries, and battery charger. Use the generator to charge the batteries, use the batteries and inverter to power the concentrator. What is 'beaucoup power'? How many watts?

Email me......drop the antispam X out of the address, it's real. Let me know the details of the concentrator.....how much power or how much current at what volts. I'll take a shot at sizing a system for you. Of course, I'll post it for peer review.

-- de (delewis@Xinetone.net), July 08, 1999.

Zeda where do you get that potassium iodide?

-- Shimrod (shimrod@lycosmail.com), July 08, 1999.

A saturated sol. of potassium iodide is one of the oldest expectorants around and most older drug stores /pharmacies still carry it. Your doc will have to write a script for it but it's non narcotic and safe. Zeda

-- Zeda (rickster@n-jcenter.com), July 08, 1999.

If someone has a need for oxygen, how about one of the following sources: 1) find a chemical that gives off O2 when heated )an oxidizer) and stockpile it. I suspect that potassium permanganate might work. (Ask a chemist). 2) Produce O2 by electrolysis of water. You will need an electricity source, and a way to purify the produced oxygen. Passing the (mostly) O2 thru a catalyst at high temperature could work. Hope this gives you some ideas to start from.

www.y2ksafeminnesota.com

-- MinnesotaSmith (y2ksafeminnesota@hotmail.com), July 08, 1999.

hey de--

Thanks for the kick in the butt. That's me in a nutshell. Sometimes I will wake up in the middle of the night with a solution to a problem that's been nagging me, and 'wahla'.

I've been feeling sorry for myself all day, but after reading your gracious gift of help, how can I stay on the damned pity pot any longer while there's still work to do.

My hats off to you and my heart is with you effort. THANKS!!! If there's anything I can do to help, give me a holler, ok?

-- Michael (mikeymac@uswest.net), July 08, 1999.

Hydrogen Peroxide (35% food grade, not the stuff in the drugstore) works well. Effective dose is 20-25 drops 3 x per day, but a person must work up to that by starting at 5 drops 3x per day. H2O2 reacts with the enzyme catalase to create oxygen in the blood steam ( remember the bubbles?) There are precautions to consider. the best advice from here would be to do a SEARCH for H202. you will find all you need.

-- KoFE (your@town.USA), July 08, 1999.

Hydrogen peroxide is a scary name, but it is nothing more than oxygen in water. I take it all the time. An other thing you can do to oxygenate your body is by deep breathing every 5 minutes! Simple and cheap!

The FDA has made buying food grade 35% hydrogen peroxide very difficult. It is not readyly availlable. The FDA does not like cheap home health remedies. The 3% hydrogen preoxyde has stabilizers in it. It can be used if you have to, in order to stay alive, but the 35% food grade is the best to get, if you can get it.

-- freddie (freddie@thefreeloader.com), July 09, 1999.

Thanks so much to everyone for some really good ideas!! Some combination of these may literally save a life.

-- Gypsy (GypsiGold@aol.com), July 09, 1999.

Gypsy,

I emailed this to you, but also post it here for review.

-------------------

Youve indicated that the concentrator draws 5 amps. One thing I dont know is whether oxygen is needed continuously or only for sleeping (8 hours day). The approximate costs listed below do not include a 2500 watt (or greater) generator. So, I provided system configuration versus the amount of time the concentrator runs daily.

-----------------------------

E = volts I = current (amps) P = power (watts) = E x I

If we assume a lossless (no such thing) system,

E x I(battery) = E x I(concentrator), and using a 12 volt battery, 12 x I(battery) = 120 x 5 = 600

(The concentrator is a 600 watt unit.)

And, the battery drain will be:

I(battery) = 600/12 = 50 amps

But, you wont have a lossless system. Allowing for typical losses of 20%

I(battery) = 1.2 x 50 = 60 amps.

The total current used in a 24 hour period is equal to: 60 amps x 24 hours = 1440 amps. This assumes that the concentrator runs full time. If it only runs at night (sleeping) this drops to 480 amps.

Lets construct a table of how long it must run versus batteries needed. Each battery is assumed to be a Trojan T-105 golf cart battery, and costs roughly $80. The 6 volt batteries would be connect with 2 in series to produce 12 volts, with as many parallel chains as needed to make up the required capacity. The discharge can be 117 amps (50% of the rated capacity of 235 amps for these batteries)

Run Time---Amps Used----Batteries*--Cost 1 hr---------60------------2--------$160 2 hr--------120------------2--------$160 4 hr--------240------------4--------$320 8 hr--------480------------8--------$640 12 hr-------720-----------12--------$960 16 hr-------960-----------16-------$1280

* Number of batteries = 2 x Amps Used/117

Example, for 8 hours, # Batteries = 2 x 480/117 = 8.2, rounds to 8

You could use a 2400 watt inverter, which would allow plenty of power for start up. A Trace DR2412 inverter is priced at $995 at WindSun. This is the lowest price Ive seen on these.

Then, you would use a generator, running about 6 hours a day to recharge the batteries, at up to 75 amps. Thats why I stopped the table above at 16 hours. During the time the generator was on it could also supply the concentrator. This gives you coverage for 6 hours more than the table shows.

It can work. The overall cost would be about $2300 to $3000, depending on the number of batteries used. This is expensive, but still quite a bit less than trying to do it with a steam generator.

By the way, if you were to try to do this with solar or wind, you would need to provide the same number of batteries, but the cost of recharging them would be far greater. In order to get reliable power to recharge, youd need several thousand dollars of solar panels and a couple of wind generators.

-- de (delewis@Xinetone.net), July 09, 1999.

Gypsy,

I emailed this to you, but also post it here for review.

-------------------

Youve indicated that the concentrator draws 5 amps. One thing I dont know is whether oxygen is needed continuously or only for sleeping (8 hours day). The approximate costs listed below do not include a 2500 watt (or greater) generator. So, I provided system configuration versus the amount of time the concentrator runs daily.

-----------------------------

E = volts I = current (amps) P = power (watts) = E x I

If we assume a lossless (no such thing) system,

E x I(battery) = E x I(concentrator), and using a 12 volt battery, 12 x I(battery) = 120 x 5 = 600

(The concentrator is a 600 watt unit.)

And, the battery drain will be:

I(battery) = 600/12 = 50 amps

But, you wont have a lossless system. Allowing for typical losses of 20%

I(battery) = 1.2 x 50 = 60 amps.

The total current used in a 24 hour period is equal to: 60 amps x 24 hours = 1440 amps. This assumes that the concentrator runs full time. If it only runs at night (sleeping) this drops to 480 amps.

Lets construct a table of how long it must run versus batteries needed. Each battery is assumed to be a Trojan T-105 golf cart battery, and costs roughly $80. The 6 volt batteries would be connect with 2 in series to produce 12 volts, with as many parallel chains as needed to make up the required capacity. The discharge can be 117 amps (50% of the rated capacity of 235 amps for these batteries)

Run Time---Amps Used----Batteries*--Cost 1 hr---------60------------2--------$160 2 hr--------120------------2--------$160 4 hr--------240------------4--------$320 8 hr--------480------------8--------$640 12 hr-------720-----------12--------$960 16 hr-------960-----------16-------$1280

* Number of batteries = 2 x Amps Used/117

Example, for 8 hours, # Batteries = 2 x 480/117 = 8.2, rounds to 8

You could use a 2400 watt inverter, which would allow plenty of power for start up. A Trace DR2412 inverter is priced at $995 at WindSun. This is the lowest price Ive seen on these.

Then, you would use a generator, running about 6 hours a day to recharge the batteries, at up to 75 amps. Thats why I stopped the table above at 16 hours. During the time the generator was on it could also supply the concentrator. This gives you coverage for 6 hours more than the table shows.

It can work. The overall cost would be about $2300 to $3000, depending on the number of batteries used. This is expensive, but still quite a bit less than trying to do it with a steam generator.

By the way, if you were to try to do this with solar or wind, you would need to provide the same number of batteries, but the cost of recharging them would be far greater. In order to get reliable power to recharge, youd need several thousand dollars of solar panels and a couple of wind generators.

-- de (delewis@Xinetone.net), July 09, 1999.