why should I fear Martial Law?

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At the risk of being put up against the wall and stoned to death, I have a few questions re martial law. My GI girl friend and I were discussing y2k and civil unrest yesterday and decided we could be begging for martial law if it got bad enuff. Then last night my husband and I decided that maybe we didn't REALLY understand what martial law is. We discussed the desire of having a curfew if TSHTF. We decided we wouldn't mind some national guard walking or driving the roads if there was threats of looting, etc. And if things got really bad, we would want more than that from the troops. So tell me...what is the big fear of martial law. Is it the control that could continue AFTER the crises of riots, etc., passes?

PS: about 10 miles from us is some sort of storage or pumping facility for natural gas. Chubby hubby says its part of the pipe that runs down the center of the State. (Florida) Last wednesday when we went by there, there were 2 army trucks there. Army or NG. I am tempted to drive out there and see if they are still there. I would think they were probably out there making plans on how to protect. A neighbor is one of the head honchos of the local NG. I think that I will go and visit with them.

Taz

-- Taz (Tassie@aol.com), July 15, 1999

Answers

Your Constitutional Rights will be suspended during Martial Law. So, if there is a problem, they will haul everybody off to the slammer and ask questions later.

-- freddie (freddie@thefreeloader.com), July 15, 1999.

Taz,

I have no doubt that the unprepared urban citizens will need and welcome martial law, such as in DeeCee for instance. It will provide some safety and distribution of basic survival goods such as food, water, fuel. However, since supplies are expected to be strained to the limit for these items, I also expect that they will be asking "who knows of someone that has a personal large stockpile," and they will then go to those places and confiscate the stockpiled items (including personal generators) "for the greater good" of many needy people. Thus, with one hand they will give (police security) and with the other they will take away (confiscate). Also, under martial law there will be no debate or resistance to their demands tolerated. You will do as you are told or be arrested and hauled off. That's the way it works. So anyone who thinks they have prepared with extra items will only be a little-general-store for all the "police" who carry out the martial law orders. Could this lead to a long term dictatorship? Absolutely. Count on it. For as long as it takes to try to stabilize a chaotic supply system. It could be years. Just keep this in mind, because the way I see it there *will* be martial law and initially there will be nothing you can do to stop any abuses by those who are ordered to "protect" the greater population.

-- Gordon (gpconnolly@aol.com), July 15, 1999.


"Just keep this in mind, because the way I see it there *will* be martial law and initially there will be nothing you can do to stop any abuses by those who are ordered to "protect" the greater population. "

I fear there is much truth in what you say, but the large percentage of US citizens with guns have set forth a very different view in previous posts. They have guns for a reason.

-- Anonymous99 (Anonymous99@Anonymous99.xxx), July 15, 1999.


Personally, I think there will be some form of martial law, weather in certain states or federal, I don't know. I don't like it, for the fact that, the people who don't require any "assistance" can be forced to "accept" this assistance. For example, if your a GI and fully prepped, they can and will(under martial law) require this or that, which may include: registering at your local shelter, turning in guns, curfew, relocation(if your area is deemed unsafe).

In the end, under those conditions, the pollyunprepared's and the doomergotprepsoutmyass will be on the same-state/federal rations provided(or not) level. That's why, if you are preparing for the worst, but remain within a large city for the rollover, it's all in vain(if martial law does come).

It's my contention that if it does come, it almost HAS to be put in motion BEFORE the rollover. Paniced hord's of braindead, freaked out people, are much easier to deal with before they become paniced. It would be a tactical nightmare to try and get control of a whole city after the fact. Therefore, if troops are not dispersed within your city by late December, I do not think they will. On the other hand, our CIC, Klinton, isn't quite the military stratigest either...Hmmm.

Personally, my new year hang out is far removed from anywhere, and in frozen isolation, but i've got kero,propane,water,food,weap.,medical.

The minute I see convoys, I'm grabbin my wife,dog, and gear and headin north.

Best of luck!

-- CygnusXI (noburnt@toast.net), July 15, 1999.


Name one freedom the govt. has taken away and then given back. What the govt. takes it keeps!

-- Johnny (JLJTM@BELLSOUTH.NET), July 15, 1999.


Thanks for the thoughtful answers and not flaming me for the question.We live out in the forest so wouldn't expect a whole lot of rioting, or troops. And the slammers are already so over loaded that some of the Florida counties have built camps. They are but fences with guard towers and tent top living units. They are learning to use a hoe, too, I understand. In Florida we have prisoners working the roads picking up trash, etc. They wear blue denim with an orange stripe down the side of pants. But in my county, the prisoners are in the old fashioned broadly striped uniforms of old. They are dark green stripes rather than black. They have to mow and care for the grounds of county bldgs, etc. There is a crew that works for chubby hubby at the landfill, too. It is still legal for chain gangs in this state and we are not afraid of the death penalty either. Even tho the frying ability of our old electric chair is in question. They think it takes too long and is cruel. I say its just fine!!! Anyway, my point is, the slammers are all full. Where will they put all these people that you say they are going to haul away. And why put me in a shelter, when its obvious that there is not near enuff shelters for the 99% of the population that will need it. How are they going to shelter all of NYC? Again thanks for the replies.

Taz

-- Taz (Tassie@aol.com), July 15, 1999.


Taz, my mother still talks about martial law in Vallejo, California, during WWII. There were race riots downtown and by the time the Guard came in, many people welcomed them. It didn't last very long. IMHO martial law under Y2K would be a recognition of the failure of local government management and planning. I do believe it will happen and that many citizens will be calling for it. I'm not so sure about seizure of individual stockpiles, though.

I am guessing (just my own opinion, but my prognostications are worth as many electrons as anybody else's) that martial law will involve a nationalization of key sectors of our infrastructure. Think of areas where riots or serious failures are likely to develop if TSHTF: grocery stores, banks, gas stations, power plants, fill in the blank. It is easier to assign finite manpower to protect/guard selected places instead of every home. House-to-house searches, if they occur, would probably involve looking for so-called "ringleaders" of any riots. If the Guard reaches the point where they are searching homes for individual stashes, that will be later in the game and by that time the soldiers will be looking for food for themselves, and to hell with the government. In that case the Commander in Chief will be in charge of nothing and we would be living Mad Max.

I do not think we will reach that point, but I packed a BOB just in case! :>

-- Margaret (janssm@aol.com), July 15, 1999.


Hey, Margaret!

LOL! It was indeed worth the electrons to have your opinion!

Gypsy

-- Gypsy (GypsiGold@aol.com), July 15, 1999.


Where will they put the hoards of people they haul off? They will take over airports and use the hangers, they will use large halls, warehouses (that by that time have been emptied). If all else fails, they will put up barbed wire and herd people inside a make-shift compound and let them shiver or freeze in the cold. But if we see martial law, they will find ways to treat people as cattle.

-- winna (??@??.com), July 15, 1999.

Taz, I challenge you: Research MARTIAL LAW applied over a LONG TIME, and in all of history you see if you can find a single instance where the "protected" were not abused mightily by the "protectors". Sure, when its a temporary thing as the result of some out-of-control event, it does a lot of good -- that is the way it should work. But like the old saying, "After three days, fish and guests start to smell", the use of martial law in a long term scenario -- such as a city that has melted down due to municipal water/sewage failures and civil unrest -- will be a living hell.

By the way, do you and your GI girlfriend ever like to mudwrestle?

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), July 15, 1999.


Johnny (JLJTM@BELLSOUTH.NET),

Habeas corpus

-- No Spam Please (nos_pam_please@hotmail.com), July 15, 1999.


You guys have GOT to read Sorokin's book, "Man and Society in Calamity". Over and over thruout history, gov'ts in famine-struck societies will unceremoniously grab all the food they can, whereever they can find it. They probably won't IMHO forcibly relocate you, but EXPECT to have your food grabbed and exchanged for nonedible worthless paper in 2000 if they can find it. Bury, bury, and not all on your property. Yours in preparation.

www.y2ksafeminnesota.com

-- MinnesotaSmith (y2ksafeminnesota@hotmail.com), July 15, 1999.


The aftermath would be troubling, and I fully support using the death penalty early and often. However, consider that you might not just be hauled off to a prison or a camp under martial law. You could be summarily executed on the spot. Who would challenge such a murder? Your neighbors or friends or family who are subject to the same possibility? To what authority or court would you appeal?

-- nothere nothere (notherethere@hotmail.com), July 15, 1999.

Taz,

If you want a visual idea as to what Martial Law would be like in this country, (and this is a mild stretch), rent and watch "The Seige" with Bruce Willis. You might get an idea about how NG troops would cordon- off and lock-down a city, where dissidents and suspected dissidents are intered, how justice is handled...etc., etc. Now, locallized declarations of Martial Law by Govenors after disasters is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a federal State of Emergency with Martial Law being declared in wide regions.

Remember, Y2K is not just an event that may hamper essential services...but also an opportunity for terrorists both foreign and domestic to wreak further havoc on a confused and frightened nation. "The Seige" and its depictions of hunting terrorists and locking down a city may not even scratch the surface of what we would be in for.

From a realistic perspective, Martial Law could be the launch-point for whatever tyrant wanted absolute control...whether corporate, party or individual. That's the historical result of Martial Law this century. As always from government, it will be packaged like candy...it will be for OUR protection. And the asleep dolts will swallow it whole, and one day wake up and realize they can no longer even speak freely. Don't think that's a stretch. We're on the road towards losing our rights anyway. Read the news?

I have a buddy who grew up in Pakistan, who livede under Martial Law. As he puts it; "Once a National State of Martial law is declared....your experiment in Democracy is officially over. Once the military takes control, it does not go back...EVER. They may give you back small tokens of freedom, like being able to go to market and buy your food, instead of having it rationed, but it never goes back. Then people come to use Martial Law for their own power. It is a very bad thing. Be afraid of Martial Law. If you do not, then your freedom will be taken away forever."

He fled Pakistan to live here. I would trust testimony from one who lived through it, than assurances from government officials that will try to "assure" us of military benevolence..

Historically, nations that live under Martial Law- eventually either become Dictatorships, or armed revolution ensues to break the chains of military slavery. Will we heed the lessons learned in blood from these other nations? (Thinking of Angola, Nicaruaugua, Kenya, Liberia...etc., etc.)

But I know, I know...it won't happen here. Those are thrird world countries. We're civillized! We're America for chrissakes! Nothing like that could happen here! The people run this country, and they wouldn't stand for that --- right?

You folks go ahead and believe that.

It's how the majority of our birthright freedoms have already been taken away. Cigarettes, guns and junk food were just the start. Your speech and the way you think are next.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), July 15, 1999.


I agree that the fact there are so many armed citizens will put a big unknown into the final shakeout under martial law. However, the way the "police" will find either guns, food, fuel, whatever, is by being tipped-off by other folks who are either frightened, hungry, freezing, or just plain want to snuggle up to the authorities. This has always been the case everywhere. If the authorities get little or no cooperation regarding the stockpiles of those who prepared, they will have trouble finding them. There won't be time for house to house searches. BUT, when some folks are starving and they know you have food they will tell the authorities about it. *First* on the list of those who will do that are the Polly crowd, bet on it. Once things start to get really bad, the Polly will try to save face and participate in the *new* order very quickly. Taz, you are probably in a real good position there in Florida, but that won't be the case for the northern half of the nation.

-- Gordon (gpconnolly@aol.com), July 15, 1999.


The military in the USA is under control of civil government unlike many nations in the world at large. Martial law gets close to reversing that tradition. In a state of Emergency the Executive Branch can, with the ascent of Congress, basicly rule by fiat. The longer that situation lasts the more tendency it has of becoming a perpetual state of operations. It is my understanding that we are currently technically still in a 'state of emergency' since FDR invoked same way back in the 1930's. Every year it is renewed by Congress. There is never a discussion of this publicly.

With the low esteem that we now hold both the Presidency as well as the Congress what do you think our chances are of really knowing what their intentions are, what they are willing to do, how corrupted they have become and will become as power is further shifted into the center???

-- ..- (dot@dit.dash), July 15, 1999.


This has been addressed before. They really don't have enough space for everyone. Not by a long shot. My guess is that they would look at prepared GI's as just some people that they don't have to worry about. The more the better. They will have their hands full just trying to house and feed all the DGI's that come knocking on the shelter doors and if we (us GI's) all elect to stay at our homes because we are prepared, that makes the job a little bit easier for the guard.

-- rick (I'mset@home.house), July 15, 1999.

We don't have enough troops to patrol everything, or enough police. But government will try to hang onto whatever it can, and will spread its forces as thin as necessary to try to do that. People don't really want to do evil, but often do it accidentally when under pressure. Remember Kent State? The NG troops weren't evil; these were scared, young guys with guns, lacking guidance.

So the question becomes: How much pain will be caused by the government's clumsy attempts to keep a lid on problems? In recent discussions, I've asked audiences to compare Y2k to their childhood. When you were 4 or 5 and your folks were having a really bad day, you said to yourself "this is not a good day to ask for anything, I'll just go play in my room".

Well, in January 2000 and beyond, your country is going to have a really bad year. Your goal, community by community and neighborhood by neighborhood, is to be so self-sufficient that you don't have to ask for anything. When the state NG head asks your county sheriff "Any problems you can't handle?", you want your sheriff to say "Nope, no problems here". That is the absolute best outcome.

The NG will be delighted to skip your town, they're going to have all they can do to keep a lid on NY, LA, Atlanta, Chicago, you name it.

If we can all do this, if the total of prepared communities is high enough that the NG doesn't panic a la Kent State, then maybe we won't have governmental hysteria. Remember 1966, when every major city seemed to be burning? Be terrific if it got no worse than that. Wow, what a sick statement, huh?

In sum, don't make the government stretch so thin that it panics. By your preparations, you can cut them enough slack to let us all stay functioning.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), July 15, 1999.


In addition to all the above listed good reasons to avoid martial law I see a philisophical reason.

I would call it the Premis or Foundation problem.

We ostensibly have the rule-of-law as the operating foundation in Ameria. If we transition to an extra-legal atmosphere that was not invisioned in the Constitution or the generally accepted interpretions thereof we would move to a "place" where actions of "law" does not have a foundation. Or at least not the one we have now that has a 200+ year history of application to the civilian population.

The only "system" of law that would be left is the Military Code of Justice.

I recognize that our Military has a fine tradition and an extant body of law to apply to it's own people. However, I do not believe that most people, give the choice, are willing to place themselves under this different code of justice. I am not, again, given the choice.

The ancillary problem is that once a state of martial law is declared how do we ever get "back".

These are not trivial issues.

Too much misery and too many lives were the cost to get and keep us where we are today. And as shitty as a lot of things are out there (you don't have time for even *part* of my list), what we have is way ahead of whatever is in second place. Lots an lots of changes are needed. But the changes need to be made *within* the system.

-Greybear, deeply concerned.

-- Greybear (greybear@home.com), July 15, 1999.


A description of Martial law in Northern Ireland for the past 30 years:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/bluesky_insightsspot/19990224_xcins_life_ under.shtml

Read these 2 books by law professor James L. Hirsen. If you have audio capabilities, you can also listen to his interview on the Rense show.

Government by Decree : From President to Dictator Through Executive Orders

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1563841665/o/qid=932059032/sr=8 -3/002-4759883-3060656

The Coming Collision; Global Law Vs U.S. Liberties

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1563841630/o/qid=932059032/sr=8 -2/002-4759883-3060656

URL to the radio broadcast~

http://www.broadcast.com/shows/endoftheline/9905/end0511.ram

What INVAR stated in his post was right on, only I believe our right to free speech is already being stomped on in the radio broadcasting arena with draconian federal regulations against small [read: non establishment/free thinking] broadcasting stations. And as far as affecting the way we think...our prussian based educational system is doing a right fine job of raising a whole generation of mentally crippled citizens and good taxpaying robots!

-- OR (orwelliator@biosys.net), July 15, 1999.


Uh INVAR,

Would that be Amerika?

-- nothere nothere (notherethere@hotmail.com), July 15, 1999.


Says the Grand Inquisitor,

"in the end they will lay their freedom at our feet and say to us, 'Make us your slaves, but feed us.'"

-- Ct Vronsky (vronsky@anna.com), July 15, 1999.


The few can control the many when the former have guns and the latter do not. (California Dreamin'.)

-- Jack (jsprat@eld.net), July 15, 1999.

nothere,

Yes, that would be Amerika with a 'K'.

Or the United Socialist States of Amerika, with Kalifornia as the model province of said Republik.

--Got Comrades?

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), July 15, 1999.


I can imagine a situation where it would be folly to resist relocation. Suppose your friendly petrochemical plant a few miles upwind of where you live, experiences a catastrophic accident, releasing toxic fumes that will kill you if you hang around. The NG, or the local police, or whoever, might go around the affected area letting people know (supposing they're sufficiently organized to do this.)

Would you stay put -- knowing your children are at risk?

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), July 15, 1999.


You asked a good question, Taz, one that many folks may be asking themselves in a few months. California is already considering legislation that would allow the governor to declare an emergency even before one exists. Eugene, Oregon, is this week considering an ordinance that would give the City Manager draconian authority to unilaterally declare martial law and confiscate anything that he felt he needed.

To many unknowledgeable and unaware persons who may see themselves threatened with looting or food shortages come y2k, martial law might seem like a godsend...especially since most folks seem to have the attitude that they are "entitled" to government salvation, anyway.

But to the folks who've prepared, it's not such a welcome prospect. I lived for several years under martial law in a different country, and I'll give you just one example of the kind of thing that was happening. We had a young man, a college student, working for my organization as an interpreter. Apparently he was a rather vocal irritant to the local martial law commander, since he frequently and loudly criticized some of the more egregious actions of the military.

Well, they came in and arrested him on Wednesday, tried him on Thursday, and hung him on Friday. No one dared say a word, not his relatives, friends, neighbors, nobody.

Think it couldn't happen here? Think about it some more. Ask yourself how you'd feel, how you'd react, if the guys in olive drab confiscated your weapons, food, medicine, animals, vehicles, etc. How much of that stuff do you think would actually get to the needy, and how much would end up in some NG guy's pickup to be distributed to his family, or sold to the highest bidder? How would you feel having to go on short rations so that some stupid moron who didn't prepare could keep living and contributing to the gene pool?

Tell you this...most of my neighbors are preparing, and they are quite determined to defend their stores. They are all armed...and any GI or sheriff who tries to confiscate their stuff will be talking to the business end of a 12ga shotgun.

Lots to think about.....

-- Norm Harrold (nharrold@tymewyse.com), July 15, 1999.


Just remember...the Guard and Reserve forces are your next-door neighbors (actually, so few of us it might be a couple of doors away...). Don't be so ready to assume they will herd you up. Also...my heartfelt prayer is that our beloved President will PEACEFULLY leave office. Martial law is not freedom friendly. As an aside...in all my time in the military, I never had to correct a fellow serviceperson about respect towards the Commander-in Chief. Until Clinton.

-- Mr.Mike (mikeabn@aol.com), July 15, 1999.

I don't believe the federal government has enough military personnel to implement martial law. Countries such as N.Korea and Iraq will be watching their actions closely. If the US ties down a lot of troops policing cities, one or more of out enemies may make a move.

However, martial law would give the federal governemt quite a bit of control over local governments and police forces. They could impose all sorts of rationing programs and restrictions. They could accomplish much of this using executive orders and that course is more likely in my opinion.

-- Danny (dcox@ix.netcom.com), July 15, 1999.


Several posts have mentioned "Were would they house all the shelter seekers..." Martial Law places the entire population under military rules. So under martial law, they could house them with YOU.

In the military, when living in on-base housing one of the facts of life is that under certain circumstances (storm or earthquake damage for example) the military would order you to provide shelter to another family who's house was damaged. "Not bad." you might think, "We'd invite friends of ours who's house was damaged and..." Wrong! You have no choice in the matter of who shelters with you. "Next name on the list!"

Under martial law this would likely be put into action amongst the all too recently civilian population. Kinda like the Constitutionally prohibited quartering of troops, but we are talking Martial Law and the Constitution is suspended.

January 8 2000 you get a knock on your door. An Army captain asks you how many bedrooms and family rooms in your house. You answer and then ask "Why?" and are told: "Since the emergency declaration, we have to move in people from areas where they can't stay for one reason or another. The local commander has issued orders that all habitable houses are to shelter one family per bedroom and a minimum of four singles per living room and den. And please don't resist, because resisters are to be shot on the spot."

"Now, let's see. Three bedrooms, a living room, den and a basement family room. Sargent! the next three families and twelve singles!"

You try and splutter out a reply to the captain as three families, all with small screaming children and twelve college-age males begin entering your home. And then the captain adds a cheery reminder; "Oh, and see that everyone gets fed and has their fair turn in the bathroom. Don't forget that what ever you have is available to them if they need it. We'll make reparations when things are under control, just keep a list of what gets used up."

"If the situation gets really bad the sheeple will beg for Martial Law to be declared to give some control and stability to the situation." Yeah, right. The sheeple had better be thinking really hard about what they're asking for or else Martial Law will be the unplanned, unannounced and never to depart visitor like the poor soul mentioned above recieved.

WW

Got Constitutional rights?

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), July 15, 1999.


My view of the impending martial law is the NWO senario. The systems are in place for UN entry into the US and if that dosen't happen the bombs will be dropped on us for sure. On a scale of 1 to 10 I'm an 12.

-- Army Girl (aGirl@ag.com), July 16, 1999.

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