Flint thinks that "the forum is now dying." This is his quote from Maria's: "Denial, Why Is There So Much? Just Some Thoughts" (Maria) Well, if this forum is dying and it is time for the wheats and tares to be separated, so be it. What do you all say? Is it time to desolve and we go our separate ways? The GI's aren't getting anywhere with the RTGI (refuse to get it). You may be right Flint, it's withered down to ramblings and very little substance to many of these posts. The prepared are prepared, the DGIs don't give a rats ass, and the ones that just want to be crass will continue to be crass whether they are on this sight or somewhere else. Many of us have been here a very long time and maybe this is a good time to ask ourselves why? We have 5 months left and really, what more can any of us offer? We can click onto many different sites and get first hand information on Y2K. Why do we need to post anything here only to be flamed every step of the way? I'm game for moving on and let the flippants jostle with each other.

-- Half Way There (Half Way There@Half Way.com), July 28, 1999

Answers

Well I count 52 threads (for the 27th) and who knows how many posts in the threads. Not bad for the middle of summer.

Quiet maybe, dead no.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), July 28, 1999.

It ain't over till the double naught dings!

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), July 28, 1999.

Stop the forum?? How will I ever be able to present so many O.T. stories?

-- citizen (lost@sea.com), July 28, 1999.

`Find another site to spill your guts.

-- Half Way There (half way there@halfway.com), July 28, 1999.

Prepping for Y2K is more important than reading about it, but this is still the best source I know of for current info on Y2K. I have to wade through a lot here to find the information, but there aren't many other options, and it's hard to imagine a good replacement for this forum.

I don't believe everything I read here (and I don't read everything on this forum), but there are valuable bits of information hard to find anywhere else. Besides, it looks as if news about Y2K is about to heat up considerably. If this forum and the flaming is a distraction to prepping, then cutting back on time here would be a good idea. On the other hand, the government and the financial community could be on the verge of revealing by their actions what they think might happen next year.

-- Linkmeister (link@librarian.edu), July 28, 1999.

I don't know that this forum is dying and I doubt there will be many that are willing to "disolve". I suspect there will many flames to come on this thread, but I'll give you a straight reply.

At first I thought your post was an attempt to stir things up, or to "troll" if you will. After giving it some thought, I think I understand what you are saying and I agree to some extent. The GI's get it, the DGI's don't and I doubt anyone is going to change anyone else's views at this point (at least not anytime soon). As far as being here for a possible rush of GI's later in the year.....well, it will just be too late to do much good anyhow. If a rush does happen, this forum will probably be next to impossible to access. Hell, it can barely handle the traffic that is here now.

So why do I continue to return here? I'm not sure. I'd like to say that I continue to look for signs one way or the other of what the rollover may bring. The truth is, it doesn't really matter now. I'm prepared. I really can't imagine anything happening to make me change my mind and become unprepared (allthough I continue to look). I'll stay this way till sometime in the future when I feel it is safe and the possible dangers are gone.

Sometimes I wonder if this forum isn't used as some sort of stress relief or venting mechanism. I speak solely for myself when I say that I find the whole y2k thing very stressful. I'm constantly fighting with myself over what will happen. Common sense tells me that it's a damn good idea to prepare but then there are times when I look around as I go about everyday life enjoying all the good things, seeing others going merely about their business and I think to myself "It just can't happen. All of this can't turn bad just like that", but then reality sinks back in and I realize that it can. I just don't want it to. It's a difficult battle at times. I struggle forward hoping that time will prove that all the worrying was for naught.

Nope, I don't think I'll be going anywhere. I'm here for the duration of the ride and you'd probably have one hell of a time pushing me out of the car.

-- Ready & Waiting (not@home.com1), July 28, 1999.

The forum isn't dieing, it's being sidetracked. ( by trolls )

There can be no debate about Y2k, you might think we're toast, you might think it will be a bump in the road., does it matter?

You personaly can't do jack about the outcome, what will be, Will be. What you can do is prep for the worst, hope for the best.. No one knows what will happen.

One of the guys I work with Knows Pascel, Cobal, and C++, He's been preping for 2 years. He is not a Doomer, but he is aware..

Ignor the pollys, they have nothing to contribute, and they are a distraction.

-- CT (ct@no.yr), July 28, 1999.

The forum isn't dying and it isn't really being sidetracked. People are bringing together fantastic amounts of information. Why is that helpful? Every time I start to let my mind slide, it brings me back to reality. I love knowing this stuff, anyway. Thanks all.

-- Mara Wayne (MaraWAyne@aol.com), July 28, 1999.

I have just found, or at least gotten around to, this discussion forum for the first time. I hope you all don't leave and take your toys home with you! Seriously, I have been working on a lot of cerebral stuff around Y2K since February and none of it has gotten to the actual physical stage as yet. I understand that it is probably because I have a tendency to see things my own way, as well as a tendency to take a chance working with people who may not be the best choice for the project at hand. Now that I've confessed my weaknesses, don't just run off! There's more.

My "take" on all this is that the only way that makes sense is to "go all the way back" and by that I mean more than a hundred years back. When I started this gathering of information and concepts, I guess you could say, I believed that if we could just get back 100 years we would be fine. Not so. My current view has most recently been influenced by the reading of the booklet on how to bring the waters of the Schuykill (sp?) River to the citizens of Philadelphia in 1795. You know how they did it? By using large steam engines to pump the water up so that it created a gravity flow system.

There is a great resource that includes thousands of titles dating from the earliest colonial days through the beginning of WWI. It is called The Library of American Civilization and is on ULTRAmicrofiche. It requires a special reader and most of them that were bought to use with it in the early 70's when it was published, have gone by the wayside. Ours in the Phoenix Public Library has fared better than most because someone came up with an alternate way to access it. Requires a super strong lens. So I discovered it while looking for information on how to do all those things that our forefathers didn't value enough to pass on, or whatever the reason was for our present lack. If you can find this in your local library system, I thoroughly recommend it while available. Anyway, I had no idea that they had that much technology back then. My areas of study in school didn't take me into those "woods."

Although my list of areas of knowledge that a group would need to possess includes a little mining skill, it doesn't take anything like what would be required to build a steam engine. Yes, blacksmithing, but engineering is quite another thing. I believe we may go all the way back. Evidently, several of you do, too! That gives me hope. I don't have the time to spend trying to convince others. I would rather to find others who are already convinced.

I have spent a fair amount of time interacting with a "list" or two, the members of which share a particular spiritual persuasion, which I don't happen to share. (The other members of "my" small group had located it.) Well, the group is not going too well and will probably fall apart, despite a several months of intense work together. In addition, even though I have talked about the issues with my children and grandchildren, no one is hearing me! Does this sound familiar?

I have identified a place, gone to see it, identified the problems with it and looked into addressing them. But I can't do it alone, and everyone wants their "techno-toys". I think they're wrong and will possibly pay with their lives. When the gas runs out for the generator, and the pump that is dependent on it can't pump the water, and the water from the municipal system is unsafe, how long can one last? Multiply this for each system that can't be sustained without petroleum products, plus the impossibility of replacing the parts that break down, and you'll see where I'm coming from.

I must say that I have the utmost respect for Ed Yourdon and his "Sayonara, Y2K" was well put. But, both he and some of the sentiments I see here, such as this idea that no one else needs help or is even interested in doing anything, is not descriptive of myself. And I may be the tip of the iceberg where this is concerned. I know of several people who are wanting to form groups and get out of cities all over the country and they can't find the others to work with them.

Patricia

-- Patricia (Grrengaia@aol.com), July 28, 1999.

don,t quit now==the polly,s need you know more than ever.the evidence is mounting daily, you =got it. and the glitches are showing out. plus all the=govt-reports. your at the finish-line=GO FOR IT. YOUR MAKING HISTORY.

-- no=quitters. (dogs@zianet.com), July 28, 1999.

This forum is alive and kickin'. What's dying is the pollyanna mentality. Newbies and lurkers follow this forum to make up their minds concerning the future unfolding of Y2K, it's degree of severity, etc.

This forum is also valuable for lawyers, politicians, journalists, managers...

This forum is valuable, period. It's the best Y2K forum in the web.

-- George (jvilches@sminter.com.ar), July 28, 1999.

Pat,

You would be amased at how easy it is to weld, cut, and fabricate tools from the basics. All you need is a pocket knife, some wire, a few trees, some clay, and you can make a forge, simple stuff. If you can live thru the first 6 mos, your community can do well. Network.

-- CT (ct@no.yr), July 28, 1999.

-- Half Way There (Half Way There@Half Way.com)=== Andy Ray?

-- J (jart5@bellsouth.net), July 28, 1999.

It would seem the forum is alive and well

Thank you Half way for your consern :o)

-- Brian (imager@home.com), July 28, 1999.

Patricia- I am a student of our local gold mining history. I am in awe of what these men were able to do with the tools they had and the forces of physics. The miners hand dug a ditch that ran for 80 miles. When they had rock obstacles, they either built a fire on a rock then dashed it with cold water to shatter it, or they built a flume.

They "wing dammed" entire sections of rivers to get at bedrock with dams made of woven willow and mud. They washed mountains into mud with hydraulic "giants." They took heavy heavy "stamp mills" over mountains and around curves with horse teams and rope.

They were an amazing generation of engineers.

-- marsh (armstrng@sisqtel.net), July 28, 1999.

Patricia,

I really appreciate your thoughts and sharing your experiences. I have had much trouble getting through to family and friends about y2k. Most just can not see how to survive it is that bad. I agree with your view on needing community to implement the changes and revive the lost arts, crafts, technologies and ways of life.

I have felt like I had to do it all alone and it has been a very overwhelming year. I know we will need to recreate solutions on an individual community basis. Seeing how few GI's there are really made me realize that most of us will have to survive the rollover and the aftermath in order to be one of the rebuilders. But by then, many people and much information will be lost. But not all.

I would jump at the chance to be part of a community now except I am mom to 2 boys I can not leave. We are sitting on ground zero, Southern California, and no hope of relocation in site. My whole family thinks I may just be crazy. But, there must be many more of us out there who are bracing for the hit and trying to plan to have as much of the information as possible to rebuild and adapt using old and new technologies.

Next trip to the library I will check a little deeper and see what I can find.

The best of luck to you in finding a group that gets a head start.

Lora

-- Lora Ereshan (artemis45@hotmail.com), July 28, 1999.

Ready and Waiting,

I sure agree with you about the stress of y2k. It is a huge source of anxiety, worry and sometimes depression. I especially have a difficult time as there is no one in my real life to talk to or prep with. I really need to touch base here and remind myself that I am not going crazy.

My family is all out having fun this summer, and I find myself wondering the same thing, how could it disappear? And I so want it to all go away. The beaches are so beautiful right now, and I guess I would rather be able to say to myself that everything will be fine so I can have fun instead of worry.

I do give myself time off. But I need to remember that there is only so much time left and get on track to finish whatever preps I can.

I also find enough gems here, even if it is work to wade through, that I would not want to miss out on these leads and great posts.

So, I am for staying with it and ignoring the trolls.

Lora

-- Lora (artemis45@hotmail.com), July 28, 1999.

CT:

There are only 2 things that you CAN'T build with the tools you listed, and thay are the anvil and the hammer. Plus, it is a LOT easier if you have your melting pot before you start, so you can pour the iron to make the rest of the tools you will want.

Yeah, you can do the trench, open forge thing for the first tools, but it is a LOT easier with the basics.

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), July 28, 1999.

The polly-trolls know that they won't change one regular's mind. So why are they here? To prevent newbies from being infected with what the pollies call the "poison meme." Virtually any anti-"doomer" argument you see on this site is written to convince newbies that Y2K is a scam and we "doomers" are "Nutz and DRUGGIES BUT...MOST are ** WHIMPS **" (cpr, see below).

Just imagine--some guy is reading a Y2K article in his local paper, something finally clicks, thinks, "Hmmm, maybe I ought to check this out." Maybe he gets to this site first, maybe it's third or sixth. He sees the titles of Andy Ray's posts and thinks, "Eek! Have I landed in a nest of nuts?" He clicks on a Maria or Chicken Little post and thinks, "Sheesh! More nuts arguing about rubbish with THESE nuts!" And he goes back to reading/watching MacNews for his daily insights.

Take a look at Maria's posts on Debunking Y2K for just two days. There's a reason why she used to call herself "Troll Maria." There may be more illustrative posts but I didn't have time to go back any further. (This post applies equally to most if not all of the Debunker polly-trolls who also post here.)

http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/mbs.cgi/mb237006

July 27: How the Y2k Poison Meme spreads. The circle from NORTH OUTWARDS (cpr) / Put your hands together and say AMEN! (n/t)(Maria)

July 26: Are you a Polly who is storing food? (Andy Ray) / No, I store food for any emergency (Paul Davis) / ditto that (n/t)(Maria)

Post Y2K - It is going to be messy (COBOL_Dinosaur@yahoo.com) / 10-20 ?? Maybe 2,000 on Hyatt-ski's mess?? About normal for a Fringe movement (cpr) / Remember - They are ARMED and have NOTHING to lose! (n/t)(COBOL_Dinosaur@yahoo.com) / Do you think Lisa has a gun? Do you think she knows how to use it? (Maria). . . / And it's just that they are so looney. No one can hold a decent discussion, the fringe group who go seek revenge. (Maria)

There are Nutz and DRUGGIES BUT...MOST are ** WHIMPS ** which is why they are afraid. (cpr) / The Hypesters: EVEN GARY ADMITS MANY SELLING "SUPPLIES" DON"T BELIEVE IN Y2k (cpr) / Yes, they're scardy cats but they are also so emotionally drained by the year long event. (Maria)

Does EY understand Fiscal Year Accounting - I don't think so. (COBOL_Dinosaur@yahoo.com) . . . / Join the fun - it's like a flood in a Fizzy Factory! (n/t)(COBOL_Dinosaur@yahoo.co). . . I always thought Booch had it all over Eddie. He just latches on to the good names and tries to steal the thunder huh? Like this consortium. (n/t) (Maria). . . / You know Ed hasn't spent much time thinking at all. He is good with his imagination however. (Maria) / Here's another fanstasy. Non EY but same "inventiveness". (BTW. His whole BOOK is riddled with that sort of thing.) (cpr) / This guy actually believes he's Yourgod and accepts no responsibility for other's actions. (n/t)(Maria)

-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), July 28, 1999.

Goin' fishin' without a hook again OutingsR, err I mean Old Git?

What am I supposed to conclude from you post Git? Please dot the I's for me! I really wish to see what you see.

-- Raymond Luxury-Yacht (candidate@silly.party), July 28, 1999.

Chuck,

Already have a hammer ( several ), and there are big chunks of steel here and there, also got the metal already dug and refined, some of it in easily worked forms, Y2k won't change that.

-- CT (ct@no.yr), July 28, 1999.

As much as some people might wish that the forum is dying, it really is still the best place where we can recognise the insufficient remediation progress.

-- number six (Iam_not_a_number@hotmail.com), July 28, 1999.

Nice to see you thoughtful newbies! When the real meaty Y2K news starts gushing, the polyanals declare the Forum "dead" and Y2K "solved." The louder they shout, the more you know they're desperately trying to cover up serious factual real news pouring in.

This last week we've watched amazed as several ppl around us are suddenly Veering Towards Considering Y2K Seriously. Little hints in the paper may be lighting a few *beware* bulbs in sleepy brains.

The roller coaster of Happy Face + The End Is Near peaks & precipices is accelerating. As the ride gets wild, clicking thru this Forum should be quite a jolt of news and reactions.
Hardly time to stop keeping track!

For calm useful sanity, go to our Twin Sister Prep Forum:

TBY2K Prep Forum, Recent Answers

3~0 3~0 3~0 3~0 3~0 3~0 3~0 3~0 3~0 3~0 3~0 3~0 3~

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), July 28, 1999.

Flint, PLEASE bless all of the sincere folks here with your PERMANENT absence..

Many Thanks in Advance.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 28, 1999.

The pattern is..... seems like just before really hot Y2K news hits, the trolls switch into 150% mode.

Expect some big news over the next couple days.

Also, it's a full moon.

-- lisa (lisa@work.now), July 28, 1999.

Dead? Slowing down? It's been all I could do to 'touch' 20% of the threads here in the last few days. Been very busy and had several distractions at home. I can't keep up! Dead? In your dreams.

The only thing gasping for breathe around here are the Pollys and trolls!

-- Will continue (farming@home.com), July 28, 1999.

Oh, and BTW, we're hospice caregivers, Death Experts, well-known for being acutely aware of the Signs Of Approaching Death. And this Forum exhibits *none* of those signs :-) This Forum goes thru ebbs & flows, lulls, vacations, rests, and peaks of frenzied activity. Relax. The ride hasn't even started!

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), July 28, 1999.

From a purely seasonal perspective, overall computer usage (volume) peaks in winter and bottoms out in summer.

Regarding the "death" of this particular forum, nah... I just don't see it. There may indeed be a failure to convert DGIs to GIs, but so what? Unless I'm really missing something, that isn't the forum's purpose. To the contrary, I find the clashing POVs to be quite stimulating and instructive (and even entertaining, on occasion).

If nothing else, as others have noted, this is an excellent source for breaking news.

-- M.C. Hicks (mhicks@greenwich.com), July 28, 1999.

There is little point in posting to a forum that has run completely off its tracks. The approval given such trolls as WC, King of Spain and OutingsR/OldGIT is clear evidence that no one over here wants facts or logic. It has reached the point where ANYTHING WHATSOEVER is acceptable - except anything pointing to Y2K as NOT causing a major change in the world.

Posts about contrail poison? Taken in just fine. Posts about alien abduction? Yep, have seen exactly ONE complaint that this was off topic. Stuff reposted from David Icke - the guy who thinks the Queen of England is a shape changing lizard from Mars (no kidding) - went down smooth.

Post something saying Y2K is largely fixed - the place goes up in flames.

I have not been here much lately - and that is the reason. Despite whatever the moderators may tell you - this is no longer a forum for discussion of Y2K. This is a forum for talking about how the world will end. Anything else is not welcome.

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), July 28, 1999.

Paul Davis commented:

"I have not been here much lately - and that is the reason. Despite whatever the moderators may tell you - this is no longer a forum for discussion of Y2K. This is a forum for talking about how the world will end. Anything else is not welcome. "

Paul, MANY THANKS for your absence, it was truly NOT MISSED.Looking forward to no more TROLLING from you

Your Pal, Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 28, 1999.

I think Ray's response to Paul Davis epitomizes what's happened here better than anything I could write. Just read it. THIS is the level to which 'rational discussion' has fallen. You couldn't ask for a clearer illustration of precisely what Davis just said.

You think this forum is still vital? And you admire posts like Ray's? You get what you deserve.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), July 28, 1999.

Paul Davis,

(And Flint).

Just some facts and logic for you...

OT?: William S. Cohen, Secretary of Defense: Preparing For A Grave New World (USIA)

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 0018ov

Blessings. And a recommendation to be "very prepared."

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), July 28, 1999.

Flint, you have been of GREAT DISSERVICE to this forum. You have attempted to DECEIVE the folks trying to make an informed decision about y2k. You have fortunately, NOT been successful.

You now say this is a dying forum, please allow us to perish woithout reading one more of your DECEITFUL posts.

Your Pal, Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 28, 1999.

I have not been here much lately - and that is the reason. Despite whatever the moderators may tell you - this is no longer a forum for discussion of Y2K. This is a forum for talking about how the world will end. Anything else is not welcome.

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), July 28, 1999.

Paul

What is wrong here? The world will end? This is the problem.

It would seem that the mental flexability of folks such as yourself go to extremes without looking at the greys of Y2K. The likelyhood of the world ending over Y2K is nil. There would be very few posters on this forum that would suggest that the world is going to end. Now why would you mention it then?

This is not to say that there are posters that have extreme views but contributing to it by your stance just amplifies the problem. For such an intelligent person you have just posted a statement that is obviously incorrect. It is the social structure that is at risk. Not only is it at risk because of Y2K but a number of other possibilities.

Your blanket coverage of folks worries demands a response and that is why this forum is here. It is not just the "pollies" that are blind but you have demonstrated that your view is incorrect.

Last summer the economic social order just about imploded. LOTS of information about the events and potential disruptions from folks right up at the top (FRB). If this could happen at the hight of economic stability then what is going to happen when Y2K rolls around with uncertianty and failures that could happen. We are indeed in risky times. Saying that the world may or may not end is not going to contribute anything meaningful.

Your above quote is over the top and places you in the position of those you are trying to attack. Look in the mirror for the problem Paul it just might be you.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), July 28, 1999.

Not even close to dying. This is the liveliest place I know.

Ignore trolls and pollies, let them flow around you like thin mud, an inevitable result of working your feet down to solid footing.

Two things a polly can't stand: being wrong and being ignored. Fate gave them the first, we can give them the other. I'm impressed by the consistent willingness of GI's to be wrong, by their generosity of spirit, compared to the shrivelled souls the pollies display. Sorry, don't have time for pollies, we have work to do.

Randolph - thanks for "double ought dings"!

-- bw (home@puget.sound), July 28, 1999.

Flint:

I, for one, appreciate your linguistic skills and abilities, but you're out of line when you give tacit approval to Davis' post.

Surely you cannot sit there and condone his characterization of Old Git as a troll. Please.

Given the accepted definition of a troll, neither can you countenance calling WC, KOS or Outings trolls.

I didn't expect you to fall victim to the apparently steadily rising tide of panic exhibited so very recently by the Pollys.

-- Vic (Rdrunner@internetwork.net), July 28, 1999.

Rats, Double Naught. Thanks anyhow.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), July 28, 1999.

Vic:

I'm not sure what you're saying, so I'm kind of shooting in the dark here.

If you read Paul Davis' post, you find he mentions specific people in only a single sentence. Remove that sentence, and neither the sense nor the accuracy of his observation is compromised. And his observations are spot-on accurate. I'm not condoning his assessment of some people in that single sentence so much as agreeing wholeheartedly that every paranoid fear is fair game here, but the Doom Cult Bullies will gang up on *any* expression of optimism.

You speak of the "accepted definition" of a troll, but fail to give that definition. Accordingly, I'll give my own definition, and perhaps we can come to some agreement here.

To me, a troll is someone whose posts are contrary to the purpose of the forum. But of course this definition begs the question -- just what *is* the purpose of this forum? And my answer here is that this forum is dedicated to evaluating the current and possible future impacts of any date handling bugs in software, and to discussion of possible responses to those impacts. I consider any hypothetical future appropriate here; the challenge is to support your hypotheses with reasoned argument based on whatever data you consider salient.

Accordingly, trolls are posts that are off-topic. Yes, you can argue that since y2k *might* affect almost anything, almost anything is on- topic. But there are strict limits to this argument, since at some point (as Paul Davis points out), the relationship with y2k becomes nothing more than "anything I'm afraid of".

In any case, posts that do nothing more than attack, demean, ridicule or insult another poster contribute nothing but noise. I call these troll posts no matter who the victim of the attack may be. All these posts do is polarize opinion, making conversation extremely difficult and hardening already ossified positions.

To me Old Git posting as OutingsR personifies a troll. The avowed purpose of this Outings persona is to attempt to discredit other posters, contributing nothing of substance to any discussion. These posts are nothing more than childish, mean-spirited noise.

Since I'm sure you're disagreeing by now, I suggest a very simple test -- take any post discussing another poster (rather than the ideas of another poster) and swap the names with names of someone with whom you agree. Sometimes we hold such strong opinions that "X is a jerk" looks like a statement of fact if you hate X, and a vicious attack if you like X. Substitute Y for X, and a reasonable statement of fact has become a vicious attack even if you haven't changed a *single word* in the post other than the names.

If you try this name-substitution trick, you will quickly see that your fellow pessimists are almost solely responsible for the noise level here. If you go further and remove all material from a post that addresses other posters, you will find hardly a single word remaining in ANY post from 'a', Will continue, Ray, King of Spain, and several others. ALL they do is attack other posters, but again this is hard to see if you agree that the victims *deserve* the attacks because you disagree with those victims.

Now, it's my belief that ultimately, what has cranked up the noise level is the sense that the Doomy position is becoming increasingly less tenable. We still have bad news, but the scope and impact of the clear and present dangers is dwindling (except to a few addled fanatics). The pessimists were much more willing to discuss y2k impacts quietly when they felt they held all the cards. Now that it's becoming clear that their hand is no stronger, and may be weaker, than the optimists', they behave as bullies always have, by ganging up and shouting down the 'enemy' rather than discussing.

If you try the name-substitution, you'll be appalled at the doomie denial and meanness. Bullies are cowards at heart.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), July 28, 1999.

Flint said,

"Now, it's my belief that ultimately, what has cranked up the noise level is the sense that the Doomy position is becoming increasingly less tenable. We still have bad news, but the scope and impact of the clear and present dangers is dwindling (except to a few addled fanatics)."

This is the reason why you have increasingly lost respect on this forum, which you interpret as people attacking you. The scope and impact of the clear and present dangers is stable (regrettably), at least. Therefore, this apparently makes me a fanatic in your eyes. Which lessens my respect for you and your posts.

I DO respect the fact that you are finally beginning to express clear opinions about Y2K's impact. But don't mistake the fact that others push back for their being fanatics. It is strikingly odd that you, who accuse just about everyone of being irrational, is so irrationally unaware of your own biases. I must say though, this is not so atypical for people who pride themselve on being THE rational one in a given setting.

As for who is picking on who and such, there is enough nonsense on this forum these days to satisfy/dissatisfy all. It's an utter waste of time to tote up the scoreboard to see who is "worse." It's like a Las Vegas odds line .... "pick-em".

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), July 28, 1999.

Big Dog:

If you read very carefully, you will notice that I emphasize "in my opinion" and "to me, this means" and "It's my belief". In other words, I am careful to qualify my opinions by labeling them as such. Even the paragraph you quoted begins with such a qualification.

In your case, no such qualifications exist. You flatly state "you are unaware of your biases", as though you consider this factual, *despite* my careful labeling of those biases.

Uh, just who is it who's unaware of their biases again?

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), July 28, 1999.

BigDog, I beg to disagree with you but IMHO Flint has an AGENDA and that agenda is to paint a rosy picture for any one who will read his babbling. He is cunning to say the least and I believe well paid.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 28, 1999.

You're absolutely right; no polly will convince any "regular" (the word used in the post but I think it really meant doomer) of anything. But this thread exemplifies doomer logic: polly=troll=someone who doesn't think like me=someone not welcomed on this forum. Sorry guys, it's a forum to discuss Y2K issues no matter how much you try to deny that fact. But I won't go there.

-- Maria (anon@ymous.com), July 28, 1999.

Maria commented:

"but I think it really meant doomer)"

Maria, here's where you get in trouble when you ATTEMPT to THINK !!

Your Pal, Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 28, 1999.

Flint, to say that the OutingsR postings "...attempt to discredit other posters. . ." is absurd. The other posters discredit themselves by their own words in those posts. But when you say "These posts are nothing more than childish, mean-spirited noise," you're right. Since 95% of the OutingsR posts consist of pollytroll utterings, that's an apt description.

Here's an example -- one of yours, talking about this forum --

http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi?acct=mb237006&MyNum=9 25084982&P=Yes&TL=925057082

Debunking Y2k webboard

Some wheat (not much) among the chaff

Sunday, 25-Apr-1999 20:03:02

209.16.243.13 writes:

There are a couple of people on that board who are trying to make sense of things, or who can give occasional insights from personal experience.

But you need to be willing to waste a whole lot of time finding them among the noise. I visit there for the entertainment value, to tweak the loonies and look for the most mindless nonsense. I accepted long ago that you can't change a mind that someone doesn't use.

Flint

-- OutingsR (us@here.yar), July 28, 1999.

OutingsR, it is quite evident that folks like Flint and Maria are beginning to CRUMBLE under the weight of the evidence. They have begun to ramble and scramble and carry on quite irrationally.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 28, 1999.

Outings/Old Git:

You crossposted this before, and I affirmed it before. After all this time, it has become more true than ever. Do you think I post *anything* I'm ashamed of? I've used my own name (it really *is* my name) and address on every post I've ever made. A coward like yourself must get some kind of sick kick, thinking you're sneaking around under a false name and stabbing your superiors in the back. How pathetic. If the doomie viewpoint must be supported by this kind of demented viciousness, we really have nothing to fear.

And if you were capable of thinking about it, you'd realize you are doing your cause far more harm than good. I've been making some effort here to save what I consider to be a potentially valuable forum from being destroyed by a few rotten eggs. And of them all, your stench is most vile. You aren't even *trying* to argue a case.

And as I recall, on one thread where three whole people in a row criticized you, you started screeching incoherently. Why play fair when you can cheat, and scream at others when you're caught, eh? Your entire persona is comtemptible, moreso than any decent human being could fake.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), July 28, 1999.

Flint, it is quite evident that folks like OutingsR and Ray are beginning to CRUMBLE under the weight of the evidence. They have begun to ramble and scramble and carry on quite irrationally.

Not Ray

-- Turning the tables (howz@itsound.now?), July 28, 1999.

OutingsR, I guessed it right, Flint is indeed CRUMBLING. All that KIND up front BS is now turning to vitriol, my my what a shock!!

Flint, if there is anything I can do to alleviate you vindictiveness please let me know.

It appears the end is near!!

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 28, 1999.

Me-O-My, I almost missed this one from our Pal:

"I've been making some effort here to save what I consider to be a potentially valuable forum from being destroyed by a few rotten eggs. And of them all, your stench is most vile. You aren't even *trying* to argue a case. "

Flint, if you want to save this forum PLEASE do the gentlemanly thing and LEAVE now. I promise you the NOISE level will immediately head south dramatically and we will be back to seriously discussing y2k.

Your Pal in these trying times, Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 28, 1999.

Flint, I guessed it right, Ray is indeed CRUMBLING. All that KIND up front BS is now turning to vitriol, my my what a shock!! Ray, if there is anything I can do to alleviate you vindictiveness please let me know.

It appears the end is near!!

Not Ray

-- Turning the tables (howz@thatsound.now?), July 28, 1999.

Ray, if you want to save this forum PLEASE do the gentlemanly thing and LEAVE now. I promise you the NOISE level will immediately head south dramatically and we will be back to seriously discussing y2k.

Your Pal in these trying times,

Not Ray

-- Name twisting for educational purposes (Sounding@good.yet?), July 28, 1999.

Netiquette:

The problem flamer

...People who post flagrantly offensive flames like this are either flexing their net.muscles, or desperately crying out for attention, or some combination of those things. Many (perhaps most) such flamers are college students who have just discovered cyberspace, and whose social skills haven't yet caught up with their technical abilities. A return flame may be just what they want, and in any case probably won't change their behavior.

-- Not (Miss@Manners.com), July 28, 1999.

Wow. Up to a point, this thread was an excellent read. What a pleasure to hear from so many new voices...all of whom sounded intelligent and rational. Too bad it has deteriorated into the typical flame war. Could that have anything to do with the number of newbies who posted good thoughts and received encouragement and welcoming in return?

This tactic really is becoming transparent.

-- RUOK (RUOK@yesiam.com), July 28, 1999.

So is OK when Ray shouts others down, or does it become a flame when ONLY the names are changed to shine a new light on his venom?

-- Mister name twister (funny@isn't it.com), July 28, 1999.

To wit:

------------------------------------------------------

OutingsR, it is quite evident that folks like Flint and Maria are beginning to CRUMBLE under the weight of the evidence. They have begun to ramble and scramble and carry on quite irrationally.

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 28, 1999.

Flint, it is quite evident that folks like OutingsR and Ray are beginning to CRUMBLE under the weight of the evidence. They have begun to ramble and scramble and carry on quite irrationally.

Not Ray

-- Turning the tables (howz@itsound.now?), July 28, 1999.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

OutingsR, I guessed it right, Flint is indeed CRUMBLING. All that KIND up front BS is now turning to vitriol, my my what a shock!! Flint, if there is anything I can do to alleviate you vindictiveness please let me know.

It appears the end is near!!

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 28, 1999.

Flint, I guessed it right, Ray is indeed CRUMBLING. All that KIND up front BS is now turning to vitriol, my my what a shock!! Ray, if there is anything I can do to alleviate you vindictiveness please let me know.

It appears the end is near!!

Not Ray

-- Turning the tables (howz@thatsound.now?), July 28, 1999.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Flint, if you want to save this forum PLEASE do the gentlemanly thing and LEAVE now. I promise you the NOISE level will immediately head south dramatically and we will be back to seriously discussing y2k.

Your Pal in these trying times, Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 28, 1999.

Ray, if you want to save this forum PLEASE do the gentlemanly thing and LEAVE now. I promise you the NOISE level will immediately head south dramatically and we will be back to seriously discussing y2k.

Your Pal in these trying times,

Not Ray

-- Name twisting for educational purposes (Sounding@good.yet?), July 28, 1999.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Do doomer flames count more than polly flames? Or is ugly ugly?

-- Twister (whos@zooming.who?), July 28, 1999.

NO it is NOT OK for ray to be as wrong as he has shown himself to be here, some of us are NOT available to respond until LATE in the night.

Ray, your last 4 or 5 posts here have been VERY out of line, and I really don't mind being the one to point it out.

HOW on EARTH can we have reasoned discourse, which this thread WAS devolving into, when someone suggests that the absence of a person's point of view is what has made the forum beter? After this it's just a very short drop to rediculousness.

COME ON, FOLKS If I didn't know better I'd say this was a bunch of 12 year olds, Ray, Not Ray, and Maria, congratulations for taking things down from where they were going.

Quietly furious Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), July 28, 1999.

Sorry Chuck, I really am. But I, for one, am sick of Ray's assholiness streak. Twas time to point it out.

Twisting the night away.

-- Love (of the forum) hurts (fighting@firewith.fire), July 28, 1999.

This forum suffered a logical death months ago!

Regards,
Andy Ray

-- Andy Ray's Biggest Fan (andymansfan@hotmale.com), July 28, 1999.

Chuck commented:

"Ray, your last 4 or 5 posts here have been VERY out of line, and I really don't mind being the one to point it out. "

Well now Chuck, you can point it out but that doesn't make it so!!

Sometimes I WONDER if you aren't part of the CREW!!

Your Pal,Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 29, 1999.

Hey Chucko, here is a comment by your PAL Flint on another thread:

"Cory's problem is, he could only do that once and the word was out -- Cory will hold open the door, smile, say "after you", and then stab you in the back -- or at least he has developed that reputation with his weather reports. He won't accept any embedded people's challenges, it's his reports, you know. "

Is this "Reasoned Discourse"???

Rest assured Chucko, every time I find Flint trying to DECEIVE I will point it out. This guy has an AGENDA!! Do you????

Your Pal, Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), July 29, 1999.

Just a couple of comments, Flint:

While I appreciate your subtlety, your approach is transparent. I refer to your opening sentence in your reply to me. "I'm not sure what you're saying..." is intended to mean, "You didn't express yourself very well..." Of course, the fact that you then answer me in 12 subsequent paragraphs makes me think you knew exactly what I was saying.

Next, it is completely witless for you to say, "Remove that sentence, and neither the sense nor the accuracy of his observation is compromised." The obverse is, "Do not remove that sentence, and neither the sense nor the accuracy of his observation is not compromised."

The sentence is part and parcel of the post, Flint. It's dishonest to suggest removing it to enhance or prove your position. Davis included that sentence, so you can't remove it to buttress your stance.

You surprised me, too, with this: "Since I'm sure you're disagreeing by now..." How is it that you are sure, Flint? Perhaps you should have said, "You may or may not be disagreeing by now..." Clearly an error of logical argument on your part, Flint.

And, "... posts that do nothing more than attack, demean, ridicule or insult another poster contribute nothing but noise." I submit, Flint, that you engage in that sort of thing all the time. You just do it so well and so subtly that most don't notice.

Finally, you do me (and yourself in the process) a disservice by tarring me with the same brush as some participants (doomers and pollies) who are little more than puerile posters with access to keyboards.

As are you, I am quite capable of independent thought. I can, and do, listen to the opinions of those with whom I disagree. Otherwise, I wouldn't be responding to you right now.

And just to be picky: Can something that's already ossified be hardened?

-- Vic (Rdrunner@internetwork.net), July 29, 1999.

Brian

No, I did not say that all people who are preparing for Y2K are waiting for TEOTW. I said that the purpose of this forum has become the discussion of ways for TEOTW to come about. Nothing else is welcome - a fact abundantly proven over and over again.

I don't think you could find any post about Y2K in the last month where a positive outlook was not met with flames. But you can find plenty of EOTW posts that were based on third hand rumor and speculation - that were welcomed with open arms.

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), July 29, 1999.

Mr. Davis, so generous of you to take some time off from running the Gary North is a Big Fat Idiot Forum. You must be working very hard to try to increase your forum's posts from three or four a day, so we really appreciate your helping us out over here.

-- They (are@every.where), July 29, 1999.

Wow, it took only minutes for an accurate observation to be met with a flame! Since I'm not of a paranoid cast of mind, I won't assume Paul Davis submitted both posts just to prove his own point. As he says, he doesn't need to, plenty here will do it for him.

And to Vic: I wondered when I wrote it whether things could get harder than ossified. That's a good question, but I can't answer it.

And yes, I should not have said I was sure you would disagree. I should have said "Just in case you disagree". You're quite right, I chose the wrong figure of speech.

Finally, after rereading, I still feel the sentence where Paul mentioned some trolls was superfluous to his point. That sentence neither contributed nor detracted from what he was saying. At best it was a good (but not necessary) illustration. And once again, I was agreeing with the *point* he made, however he chose to illustrate it or not.

-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), July 29, 1999.

Paul mentions

Brian

No, I did not say that all people who are preparing for Y2K are waiting for TEOTW. I said that the purpose of this forum has become the discussion of ways for TEOTW to come about. Nothing else is welcome - a fact abundantly proven over and over again.

I don't think you could find any post about Y2K in the last month where a positive outlook was not met with flames. But you can find plenty of EOTW posts that were based on third hand rumor and speculation - that were welcomed with open arms.

-- Paul Davis (davisp1953@yahoo.com), July 29, 1999.

I have posted several times that I expect little disruption where I live with power, dial tone, water, and that my bank and government will be doing business. and never get flamed.

Now I believe it is the blind stupidity of some of the folks that say NOTHING will happen is alot worse than saying that the water, power, banks could fail in their location.

Paul how the hell does anyone really know what is going to happen during the rollover. One thing most can agree on is something is going to break but folks have no idea exactly what will break.

This is a far cry from the EOTW yet could be a particular challange in folks lives if it is their services that have the disruption.

Mean while your crew at the Debunkers are more interested in disinformation and a wait and see approach. Not only that though your venom has contributed to the desire to have this forum shut down.

Now I am wondering about the rational behind folks when there is a high risk in the failure of Water - waste water systems (or just the total lack of information) and there you are saying that Y2K is just hype.

ah I give up.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), July 29, 1999.

Flint - It's amusing to tweak the pollies by positing end of the world scenarios. It gives them something to talk about over on deboinka. All the more amusing that they can't see they are being tweaked.

-- Amy Leone (leoneamy@aol.com), July 29, 1999.