Canonization - What is it and how does it apply to scripture?

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I had asked this same question recently with no responces other then joking. May we try again?

-- jean bouchardRC, (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), August 14, 1999

Answers

Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

I don't see any Biblical foundation for the church canonizing certain dead people as saints, much less praying to them or asking them to intercede on our behalf. Why don't you check out a standard RC work like Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott for a presentation of the RC view.

-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@hotmail.com), August 14, 1999.

Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

I don't see any Biblical foundation for the church canonizing certain dead people as saints, much less praying to them or asking them to intercede on our behalf.

So what? That everything has to be in the Bible is a fiction, a fabrication, a false gospel.

-- Lane Core Jr. (elcore@sgi.net), August 14, 1999.


Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

Canon of the Old Testament
Canon of the New Testament

-- Lane Core Jr. (elcore@sgi.net), August 14, 1999.

Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

Core apparently thinks that sola scriptura is a "false Gospel" and that the Roman Catholic Church is divinely established to interpret the Bible. Now, I would like to know where the contemporary (i.e. Vatican II) RC church teaches that sola scriptura is a "false Gospel."

Is Core a Traditionalist? I checked out his web site and I don't think he is. Core just picks and chooses what he wants to believe, just like the big bad Protestants.

-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@hotmail.com), August 14, 1999.


Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

So Steve,

When are you going to quit throwing rocks like an angry adolescent and start defending your own beliefs? You did promise us a biblical defense of sola fide, but instead of living up to your word you just decided to keep throwing rocks. Are you just one of those guys who likes to dish it out, but can't take the heat when it comes back his way?

How about you read my biblical critique of sola fide at the following site and get back to us:

http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ155.HTM

(The section on justification proper is at the end of the document).

Oh, and here's Vatican II on sola Scriptura:

"Hence sacred Tradition and Scripture are bound together in a close and reciprocal relationship. They flow from the same wellspring, merge together to some extent, and are on course towards the same end. Scripture is the utterance of God as it is set down in writing under the guidance of God's Spirit; Tradition preserves the word of God as it was entrusted to the apostles by Christ our Lord and the Holy Spirit, and transmits it to their successors, so that these in turn, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, may faithfully preserve, expound and disseminate the Word by their preaching. Consequently, the Church's certainty about all that is revealed is not drawn from Holy Scripture along; both Scripture and Tradition are to be accepted and honoured with like devotion and reverence" (Dei Verbum, 9).

Earlier in this same document the Council explicitly says that it is very Gospel that is so handed on via these two streams of revelation. So yeah, lopping off and discarding a great portion of God's Word sounds like a "false gospel" according to the Council.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), August 14, 1999.



Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

Again fundamentalists on the site are dead wrong for the Bible is not as stated earlier cannonized. It is a process of showing the laity a rod or standard of behavior as a follower of Christ to be emulated.

I for one do pray and ask for intercession from the devout Christians who went before us. For those who believe in the spirit of man and Christ's spirit among us there is not question. For those who do not I feel end up cheating themselves of offered help leading to grace from the Father through Christ. Family affair so to speak.+Peace+

-- jean bouchardRC (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), August 15, 1999.


Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

Core apparently thinks that sola scriptura is a "false Gospel" and that the Roman Catholic Church is divinely established to interpret the Bible. Now, I would like to know where the contemporary (i.e. Vatican II) RC church teaches that sola scriptura is a "false Gospel."

Is Core a Traditionalist? I checked out his web site and I don't think he is. Core just picks and chooses what he wants to believe, just like the big bad Protestants.

I must really have ticked you off when I pointed out that you should quit worrying about Pope John Paul when the real heretic, apostate and schismatic was Martin Luther. :-)

-- Lane Core Jr. (elcore@sgi.net), September 07, 1999.


Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

Yes, you must have done... aren't you a clever boy...

-- Matthew (mdpope@hotmail.com), September 07, 1999.

Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

What do you mean Jean? The cannon of the scriptures or the process of cannonization of a saint?

-- Atila (me@somewhere.com), September 08, 1999.

Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

Atila - I am attempting to understand if the Bible and Scriptures are actually cannonized as the Saints are. My understanding of the process of cannonization is that which shows us as follows of Christ a " standard or rod " to emulate.

This is a confusion in me due to input from non-Catholics n the site over the past weeks. +Peace+

-- jean bouchardRay, (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), September 08, 1999.



Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

I think there is a confusion up there. The word "canon" means something like "law" in greek. So, it is applied to very different things.

One thing is the Cannon of the scriptures, which is the decision of the Church as to what scriptures must be considered sacred (much according to the Jews oppinion). This is considered one of the most important decisions of Tradition (by the way, it was Tradition who sepparated true from false God-inspired books; protestants have a hard time to deffend the "sola scriptura" theory, for the "scripture" is what Tradition says it is).

Other completely different thing is the cannonization of the Saints. It is a proposal from the Church as to the people who are examples of sanctity to be followed. Although it is not yet defined as a dogma, it is believed that the Church4s infallibility extends to cannonization, that is, when the Church declares a person as a Saint, it is sure that this person is in Heaven.

-- Atila (me@somewhere.com), September 09, 1999.


Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

Atila - I thank you and others for helping to me to understand.

-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), September 10, 1999.

Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

Hi Steve,

Your Back! How was the trip???? I want to comment about sola scriptura and the False Gospel. It is very possible without the teacher of antquity to have sola scriptura lead to many false teachings . After all even Martin Luther believed in the development of the creeds and such. Without the early church fathers and antiquity (Written& unwritten apostalic traditions) the radicals have completely disgarded the sacraments and treasures of the church. Martin Chemnitz (the second Luther) stated that we confess also that we disagree with those who invent opinions which have no testimony from any period in the church. We also hold that no dogma that is new in the churches AND IN CONFLICT WITH ALL ANTIQUITY should be accepted. Concerning Traditions from An Examination on the Council of Trent p.258. Just a side note to all of this. I must state something that will shock some. Are you ready? All the reformers including Luther and the Book of Concord accepted the 2 church dogmas concerning Mary. ( Mother of God and Ever-Virgin) The latter 2 of the Assumption (luther believed because of tradition even though he could not make this binding on his church and Immaculate Conception which he denied only to believe that it was not at her conception, but before her birth that she was sinless by the grace of God and remained so throughout her life. It would certainly follow that he would also believe her body that carried the Lord would not decay but be carried then by her Son to her heavenly home with Him. In Luther's tomb in Whittenburg there is a statue of the coronation of Mary with him. There is a Latin inscription that obviously states that she is the honored Queen of Heaven. Lutherans today aren't Orthodox Luther at all. I believe that the disunity of Christiandom has been a tradgety. To the early church fathers and apostles unity was of the highest importance. Modernity has taken the mysteries of God and pushed them right out the back door. People are hungry and searching for these mysteries of God. Protestants are going the wrong direction. Come Back!!!!!

-- Pamela (Rosylace@aol.com), September 11, 1999.


Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

Pamela _ I applaud you for the reasearch and insight into the Lutheran issue. This Catholic has read Luther's devotion and acceptance of Our Holy Mother.

As to modern Lutherans I have wondered if due to the Neitche idioms along with C.G. Jung the Germanic mind has been infected deeply. On another site I go to MaryTalk some fool has everyone running in circles with the following ( historical facts ) on Hitler.

Hitler was Roman Catholic who did not leave the Church and was not involved with astrology or satan activites. I was of the impression he was Jewish. I was astounded to follow the thread as some catholics buy and support this in full.

My argument on that thread was as stated above and the continued long- term propanda of Goebels with the guidance of C.G. Jung. When I was studying pyscho-analysis in the late 60's up to the mid 70's there was something about C.G. Jung that did not ring true. Recently a book has been published on his involvement with the Third Riech. Quite remarkable to say the least. +Peace+

-- jean bouchardRC (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), September 11, 1999.


Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

Jean. What is the deal. I have run across a site that maintains that Hitler was a RC. What is the truth here????

-- Pamela (Rosylace@aol.com), September 11, 1999.


Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

Jean, What is this othert site. I would be interested in finding it. Can you e-mail to me the address or hyberlink. Thanks

-- Pamela (Rosylace@aol.com), September 11, 1999.

Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

Pamela - May I ask please for the site you have reffered to. AS for myself my source(s) have been reading of history. I feel history is being re-written as I have met young Germans who are totally unaware of the role Hilter played in WW11.

-- jean bouchardRC (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), September 12, 1999.

Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

Dear Jean and Pamela, Adolf Hitler was an Austrian who was born a Roman Catholic. He could have possibly had a Jewish grandfather, but it is never stated whether this is by race or by religion--there is a big difference. You can go to Altavista.com and type in "Adolf Hitler" and get many sites on this unfortunate person. You can also get information at http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/born.htm I hope this helps. Jean, what does any of this have to do with cannonization? Ellen

-- Ellen K. Hornby (dkh@canada.com), September 12, 1999.

Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

Ellen, Thank you for the info. I guess this is just one more attack by Satan to try to cast a bad shadow on the RC Church. Atila, I briefly ran across your greek term for canon. It is more in line with the use of rule than law. This is an important distinction when talking to protestants that believe church rule (canon law) is adding to Christ's fulfillment of the law. Law was fulfilled but not abolished. It is highly illogical view since they will be the first to say many things should or should not be done in the church because of law. They pick and choose.

-- Pamela (Rosylace@aol.com), September 13, 1999.

Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

Jean, Where can I find this Marytalk you were discussing??? Is this a special site? Part of one??? Curious

-- Pamela (Rosylace@aol.com), September 13, 1999.

Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

Dear Pamela, Marytalk is at http://www.monmouth.com/~samus/marytalk/mtmtalk.html or if you want other Marian links they are at http://www.monmouth.com/~samus/marytalk/mtlink.html. Hope this helps. Ellen

-- Ellen K. Hornby (dkh@canada.com), September 14, 1999.

Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

Thanks Ellen

-- Pamela (Rosylace@aol.com), September 14, 1999.

Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

Thanks Pamela for the clarification on the etymology of "canon".

-- Atila (me@somewhere.com), September 14, 1999.

Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

well no one has given me an answer i need this for school how rude

-- jean brouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), November 28, 2000.

Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

Dear Jean,
The Holy Bible itself has been canonized, by the Holy Catholic Church. You insist on proof of biblical authenticity from the pages of the Bible; which itself depends on the Church for its authenticity!

Into such vicious circles are Bible-thumpers cast who question the authority of Jesus Christ's own Church. The Holy Bible is the inspired Word of God. But only books accepted into the canon are acceptable to the Church. As things stand, the King James version-- not authorized by Rome-- is missing seven entire books from its ''canon''. Protestants are not reading a complete Bible.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 28, 2000.


Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

Dear Mr. Bouchard--
Must we apply canonization to the scriptures? Do you want to infer that it must be seen in some part of the Bible to have credibility? That's the sense I get from this question. I think we can search for a little while and find some indication. But even if there were none, that wouldn't invalidate it. A canon is a certified LIST, or summing up, of any category. In our Holy Bible, the early Church arrived at a prescribed list; a number of books, or gospels, acts, letters, etc., and named it the Holy Bible -- the divinely inspired Word of God. It disqualified a number of other books, some of them quite worthwhile, and set them aside. They weren't included in the Canon. A few of them are outright false and not inspired at all. Some are apocryphal; having some validity, but not enough that they're considered the inspired Word of God. It is almost the same with the saints. A collection, or canon of certified or certifiable (by tradition) holy persons including martyrs, clergy, and lay persons, is ''raised to the altar'' or named a true Saint. The authority of the Church gives them status as role models of sanctity. Prayers for their intercession for sinners in this life is approved, if not encouraged. In all cases, a decision of the Church and its Magisterium is needed for inclusion in the Canon-- from this word comes canonization. Canonization is a legal term.

Needless to say, there are numerous true saints today and in the past who have been extraordinarily holy and saintly in private life; and have not reached canonization. There may be some in this very board. Their final canonization will surely take place at the Last Judgement; when our Lord rewards them with an eternal crown.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 29, 2000.


Response to Cannonization - What is it and how does it apply to scriture?

While it is true that the holy scriptures do not impliedly refer to intercession at all. However to ask the saints to become a sort of link between the creator and the created does sound logical. It sounds logical because after all God to get in touch with his humanity used the Prophets or as the Christian belief is Jesus son of God. So if God and use a link between himself and the created then surely we can also pray to the saints for ourselves to acquire from Gods what we pray for.

If the holy scripture was for ordinary understanding God would not have sent down jesus with the book but rather just sent his Arch Angel to deliever the book for everyone to read and understand.

Therefore I feel cannonization is in order and should be supported by the christain community. Saints are rightly the commanders of the heaven on earth.

-- Ali Hussain (rojhan@hotmail.com), April 22, 2003.


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