The following is a bit of speculation. So don't flame me to bad eh? Us Canadians really have a hard time figuring out U.S. folk.

Of course one thing folks haven't considered is that the report is supposed to hit the "light of day" The whole thing smacks of real wierdness.

The information about the chemical refineries, water failures, health failures, international failures and others are in the public eye and add up to be worse than the Navy document. This report puts city names on it. This makes it more real.

This just might be a continuation from the 60 Min. Washington story. It is no mystery that Governments leak information out for their own purposes. How is the US Government going to point out risks such as is in this document? Pretty hard. But if it was a leak from a "old" navy document that was pulled (due to lack of interest?) and pointed towards a respected Y2K pundit that gets the message out, sounds alot more likely than Kosky on CNN. Koskinen's "weeks to months" of failures  hardly produced a ripple of awareness. This is more like a tidle wave.

And how did the Washington Post pick it up so fast. This is the part that really gets me puzzled. The whole thing just reaks. The answers were to pat, like the responce had been planned.

The part about pulling the document of the net is a hint. For example the DOD

 Y2K Analyses for Complex Systems of Systems:

Y2K Analyses for Complex Systems
of Systems: Electric Power Systems
in North America February, 1999
DRAFT

Is still on the net and discribes the potential widespread failure of power supply. In my mind as scary as the Navy document. Yet it sits there with no commentary from the Washington Post. HHHMMMMM.

I know this stretches the imagination and goes agianst the grain of many of this forum but there is a slight possiblility of this being the case.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), August 20, 1999

Answers

sound plausible to me

-- Porky (Porky@in.cellblockD), August 20, 1999.

Psssst. Gary North and Jim Lord give kickbacks on their newsletters and books to John Koskinen. They are all going to make a mint on this. Big cover for upcoming conquering of Canada. Reindeer in tinfoil. And Hillary. Shhhhhh.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), August 20, 1999.

I got the hots to mud wrestle anyone, even old Kosky!!

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), August 20, 1999.

No strech for me Brian. Maybe build the GI population in the time left among those who bother to read? If Peter Jennings burbles the truth then it's Katie bar the door. Wouldn't take him back would you?

-- Carlos (riffraff1@cybertime.net), August 20, 1999.

If it's a planned leak Brian then the gobmint has certainly gone to hell in a handbasket - there are better ways of getting the word out, remember Churchill during WW II, "we will fight them on the beaches etc.", remember the fireside chats of Presidents of yore (no, not some asshole waving his finger at me) -

Culpable homicide comes to mind. On a massive scale. C'est la mort.

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 20, 1999.

Looks like the King of Spain has a thing about mud wrestling.

-- Hates sicko's (Hates@sicko's.com), August 20, 1999.

"If it's a planned leak Brian then the gobmint has certainly gone to hell in a handbasket - there are better ways of getting the word out"

Unless, of course, the purpose of the plan wasn't "getting the word out", but was more in line with "creating acceptance for martial law" (or something like that).

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), August 20, 1999.

Brian,

Interesting idea, but I don't think so. I think the reaction was quick, because this could be a big story, and it was spreading quickly. I think K-man jumped on it in an effort to "keep the lid on." Just my humble opinion...

Tick... Tock... <:00=

-- Sysman (y2kboard@yahoo.com), August 20, 1999.

thanks for the opinions folks

I see this as a watershed for the internet as it motivated the highest level response in the quickest time ever. (IMHO) There has to be something to this we are missing.

Are the internet folk wagging the tail of the dog????

Jim Lord got the attention of the highest authority. Not bad.

Or was it fixed?

The whole thing is strange. Duty, conduct, authority, responsibility and the Navy document looks like a mess. I look through alot of documents about Y2K and the ones that Jim Lord has is not that differant.

It just has locations. That is the differance. Otherwise it would have been past off as another waste of bandwidth. Say if the U.S. Government starts to name cities, they will get into a turmoil as I see the U.S.

But if the Armed Forces do such a thing it is looked at as national security and the political aspect is sidetracked.

That is what the Canadian Government did. Just gave it to DND and said it was national problem you figure out the contingency plans to keep the national security intact.

The U.S. Folk seem to be so damm scared of their military that they don't want them to have the responsibility that they should have. And that is the security of the nation.

I do not know what is the best course of action. Canada choose their military and the US choose the business strategy. But somewhere the military, politics, business, and the public are going to meet during Y2K.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), August 20, 1999.

Andy mentioned; "If it's a planned leak Brian then the gobmint has certainly gone to hell in a handbasket - there are better ways of getting the word out, remember Churchill during WW II, "we will fight them on the beaches etc."

Andy

I would think that is best but "Y2K" is not an enemy it is a flawed business - computing error. Hardly enough to dazzel the masses. To fight a war you need and enemy and that enemy should not be your own system. What is really needed is a lifestyle shift and there is little populist or business will that wants a change from the current status - quo. Y2K is of societies own making unfortunately. They are afraid they have to cut the leg off to save the foot.

Really it is just admitting that the error is so stupid and all those entities would have to admit that. If IT - Management folk get something so simple as the date wrong what else could be screwed up? This to me is more like the real problem. Flames for this I am sure.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), August 20, 1999.

KOS mentioned

"Reindeer in tinfoil".

We don't have Reindeer native to Canada. Just like you don't have vultures in the US. Just hard to tell the differance. And as far as mud goes try Canadian pairie mud, clings to your shoe like....... I am sure you have wrestled in it.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), August 20, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr near Monterey, California

How are we coming on confirming or refuting the existance of this document online prior to two weeks ago? Will it be possible to prove a negative or only potentially a confirmation that it was there?

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage.neener.autospammers--regrets.greenspun), August 20, 1999.

Another indication that the Press are "motivated" from another thread.

CNN is involved to. This is not damage control. This is a message.

 Lord's Pentagon Papers are the tip of the iceberg...

       Hubby and I heard a 'snippet' of a story about this on CNN radio this evening. I
       turned to him and told him to hang onto his hat. Was REAL surprised to hear
       them say anything. We had been out running errands, and had not known that the
       Washington Post and others had picked up on it. My, my, my!

       -- Wilferd (WilferdW@aol.com), August 20, 1999.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), August 20, 1999.

Brian,

I see the drudgereport link has now gone awol...

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), August 20, 1999.

Just a couple of comments on how Kosky handled the Navy report. I do not think he knew in advance what Lord was about to do. It is my view that his (hasty, under pressure) response was discussed and reviewed at the highest levels (perhaps including the guy with the babes and the cigars). Probably the "spin squad" was called into session. Options were reviewed:

They could have:

(1) Denied the story and accused Jim Lord of being trailer trash and produced press leaks showing he was unfit to live on the planet. (2) Denied the story and arrested Jim Lord for leaking classified information. (3) Denied the story and ignore Jim Lord. (4) Issued a non-denial denial minimizing the story--"old news, really was public information but we can't remember where or when, overstates the problem". (5) Authorized individual mayors identified in the report to make public statements confirming the report and beginning public planning and preparation process. (6) Ditto for governors. (7) Have the Boss make a "major speech" about Y2K confirming the report, explain that martial law may have to be declared as we all faced a major crisis, and asking for cooperation with authorities as they implemented contingency plans.

As the Washington Post story indicates, they went for the stuff behind door number 4. If you think about it, it was the perfect compromise. If you have no standards of morality of leadership, don't know what you are doing or where you are going, pick the "moderate" position.

Compare that to Jim Lord. He risked a lot (see choices 1 and 2).

To my eyes Jim is a legitimate hero.

-- cgbg jr (cgbgjr@webtv.net), August 20, 1999.

As the Washington Post story indicates, they went for the stuff behind door number 4. If you think about it, it was the perfect compromise. If you have no standards of morality of leadership, don't know what you are doing or where you are going, pick the "moderate" position.

Compare that to Jim Lord. He risked a lot (see choices 1 and 2).

To my eyes Jim is a legitimate hero.

-- cgbg jr (cgbgjr@webtv.net), August 20, 1999.

cgbg jr

It is clear that Jim Lord did what he thought was right. 28 years in the navy he would know. It was a gut movement alright. Should have been done last year. Better late than never. But it also shows how each of us can contribute to the infomation base in some way. This is in essence a internet political influence. Only the y2k net folk would understand the whole story. The rest will only hear about it. But do it right and you can get peoples attention.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), August 20, 1999.

Brian;

We are not scared of our military. We are scared of the Idiots that give the ORDERS! How's the fishing up there this time of year?

-- FLAME AWAY (BLehman202@aol.com), August 20, 1999.

Was wondering the same thing Brian. Could be that this is to pave the way for "controls" and get them put in place "before" anything happens- ie: gas rationing, money controls, etc......

Wondering too- does the Pentagon have a list of nuclearpower plants expected to fail too?

-- farmer (hillsidefarm@drbs.net), August 20, 1999.

They just talked about it on NBC...I was shocked...named cities the whole nine yard...of course they also said that Mr. K said that it was the worst case outlook....anyway the point being it made national TV.

-- Mary (timmary0@airmail.net), August 20, 1999.

Brian,

I must admit the thought that it was purposely leaked did cross my mind as soon as I saw the Wash. Post article. Mary, thanks for the heads up on NBC - I watched last night and saw nothing and had not turned on the boob tube this morning..... We shall see where this brings the awareness level to.

-- Kristi (securxsys@cs.com), August 20, 1999.

"The U.S. Folk seem to be so damm scared of their military that they don't want them to have the responsibility that they should have. And that is the security of the nation."

America has always had a thing about the military intervening in domestic affairs, for very good reason. In ancient Rome it was illegal for any of the legions to enter the city of Rome, again for good reason.

I have no desire at all to have the military "help" me. If I had I would have made a career of military service.

-- John Beck (eurisko111@aol.com), August 20, 1999.

Today is Friday, I wonder how Stock market will do today. Then this weekend is Gps rollover on top of the navey papers. Let's all take inventory at a local store and see if the beans/rice/etc are any more scarce.

-- Moore Dinty moore (not@thistime.com), August 20, 1999.

One thing that has puzzled me in the last few months, with the expanding economy,and things are outside of the world of Y2K researh, how is the military going to get assets in place and get the american people to back all of what they need to do in a short amount of time. If all of this is for real, things will have to break by september,and if the public cant take a hint with the already available info, well then maybe they need to let a little more out. After all to really pull of the Marshal law thing, you need the people to be afraid, that way they ask to be saved.

-- Les (yoyo@tolate.com), August 20, 1999.

Sorry if I offended the US folk about their military, Canada has you guys as "big brother" and our's is pretty small. It would be a big differance.

So the story hit NBC? Isn't that interesting.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), August 20, 1999.

Brian,

Ill take a swing at this one... recall the most serious and transparent Y2K scenario information is coming from the Naval War College.

Naval War College...

http:// www.nwc.navy.mil/dsd/y2ksited/y2ksite.htm

Mirror site by Dr. Thomas P.M. Barnett, Project Director

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Thinktank/6926/ y2ksite.htm

And now we have Jim Lord... and ex-Navy guy... leaking some disturbing evidence (as Jason McNamara on behalf of John Koskinen) calls it.

See...

Koskinen speaks again. Paging Jim Lord?

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 001GxB

And for further reference see... (trying to add all new thread links to this main one)...

Koskinen's "Take" On Jim Lord's Pentagon Papers (Steve Davis-- Coalition 2000))

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id= 001GgI

Now, we have a consistent level of PUBLICLY AVAILABLE disturbing Y2K scenario information coming from... the U.S. Navy... one more time.

What IF... people at the Naval command (or lower levels) did NOT agree with the Executive Branch of the U.S. Governments handling of the Y2K public awareness and preparation issues... in other words the White House and Y2K Czar, Koskinens uh, to be polite... dis-information campaign.

What could they DO about it? Leak... or post... in plain sight.

Seek... and ye shall find.

There's a... truth.

BTW, In addition to "thanking" the Navy, Id also like to acknowledge the National Guard and the Air National Guard for other reasons.

Oh, and do recall... shift happens... daily.

Are we seeing disturbing evidence of a DoD splintering? Or not?

Questions to ponder.

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), August 20, 1999.

Diane

I have considered giving the Naval War College another look after this "update". There was talk before about the "splinter of DOD" and it wouldn't be to much of a suprise that there would be political motivations eh? Ya the politics of Y2K, thats it :o)

At some point and time we are going to have to get a thread happening with all the links in cronological order. I noticed Tom C. did a good list in one of the threads but there are so many of them it will get lost.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), August 20, 1999.

Brian, It could be a planned leak, or a dissident faction as Diane says. My sense is that they want a certain number of people to GI and maybe not enough have.

But seriously, I'm worried about KoS, his mania to mudwrestle is escalating. He won't harm himself, will he? KoS? Are you okay?

-- Mara Wayne (MaraWayne@aol.com), August 20, 1999.

cgbg jr,

There was one more option for Koskinen---Ignore Jim Lord AND ignore the story. Based on past history, this would have been his normal response. By deviating from his norm this was elevated to mainstream media status overnight. Even so, given that the media has often completely ignored major Y2K stories, it's odd that they picked up on this one at all, let alone so quickly. Something really does seem "off" about this. Of course, it could all be coincidental and totally benign....but. Suppose the story is a "plant" deliberately leaked to Jim Lord---and Kosky, by not ignoring it, is behaving strangely. Because the media is also behaving strangely, some high-level manipulation could have been involved. If it's a trial balloon to see how the citizens would react to this kind of information becoming public, it would require the participation of the media. Kosky could now allow the line to unreel just far enough to test the waters...THEN completely and irrevocably disprove the story, discredit Jim Lord, make the media hyper-reluctant to print ANY further Y2K stories, and reaffirm the impression that those who are preparing (by "hoarding" and taking money out of the bank) are dangerous whackos...all in one fell swoop! Now, that WOULD be convenient.

-- RUOK (RUOK@yesiam.com), August 20, 1999.

Here is a thread Taz started that has more "odd" information

 Here is my electric co's response to Pentagon Papers.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), August 20, 1999.