To whomever,

I was starting to go into another thesis on this subeject, but realized it would be irrelevant to you anyway, but the search was quite interesting.

There were another groups that believed in more than one class. The Waldenses were one ca: late 1100's. Ill let you read their history if you like. You wont believe my sources anyway. Because the Catholics have put them into a category with the Cathari , even though there are very few similarities, especially when dealing with the belief in Christ. They were a peaceful group, who were killed (burned at the stake, should have used a cross :>)) and persecuted by pope Innocent III and his crusaders. (Even though he is considered a humanitarian.) Some are still around, though modified from the original.

How can a pope receive Christ in the eucharist then go out and say kill your neighbors? Oh, I forgot, it wasnt really him that ordered all those men around was it? Of course not. *smile*

Originally they were banned from preaching by the pope, unless under supervision by the clergy, because they were only laymen. Sound familiar? Who is the largest christian religious organization in France? Who was almost banned from preaching? What about Russia? Another christian church banning those whom it disagrees because they are heretics? Coincidence?

But, what is a heritic? Websters heritic: Gk fr hairein - to take. Now, who was actually taking in the Middle ages? Cathedrals are not built with rice. Coin collections are bought with alleluias. Painters were not paid in bread. As said, your history is written in your architecture. On the backs of the laymen/common man under the yoke of the clergy.

Of particular note too me, how could the Waldenses be right on this preaching work? They were only laymen.

What about being a preacher or head of a congregation? Could a Shepard (ie David)? Could a carpenter be a preacher? The Pharisees said no, right? What about a bunch of little-ole fishermen? Surely not a tax-collector? These arent scholars. Theyre laymen.

So only scholars should be preachers, right? Now, tell me who the scholars of Jesus day were?

And, to David P comments as to M. Luther being the first to preach sola scripture or sola fide is also an error. The Waldenses were doing so at least 300 years before. Luther was even accused of using these people to base some of his ideas on. And, of course the CC claims he was wrong on ever thing, right? Was he really?

So why does the church have two classes? Priest, laymen? If were all going to heaven, why two? Who will those priest in heaven be priest over? The animals on earth like Pamela was talking of? Or, are only the redeemed Israelites to be priest? All the rest going to be in some circle like the move Powder spinning around God?

Many of you here are better educated than any priest, pope, etc. simply because you are laymen. You have practical experiences that only comes from experiencing life. Yet, these experiences are denied to the clergy, unless of course your a convert - then you can keep your wife. Do you realize that this forum goes against all that was taught during the Middle ages by the church? Many here are preaching the Good News from your own point of view and thats is wrong according to the church.

The Waldenses also didnt originally believe in fighting. That to must be in error, since there is a such thing as a just human war, right?

Choose your history carefully, the one written by the crusaders, or the ones killed by the crusaders. Choose the history written by the ones who took a vow of poverty, or the ones who took a vow to destroy. Choose the ones who wanted to preach the Good News, or the ones who wanted to force it down some ones throat, or else. Thats what Jesus said to us, isnt it? Judge others of their sins, since all great educated clergy know a mans heart? Of course I must have forgot. *sarcasm*

The actions you church shows today has not always been the one it was built on. By their fruits you will know them, isnt that what you stated David P.? Pope Innocent must have been right in calling the crusaders? Luther was wrong in saying the church was in error for being paid to pray for the dead - right? Thank God I dont live in the middle ages, Id have been burned by now. Luther apparently wasnt even the beginning of the Reformation as many here say, the Waldenses had him beat by several hundred years. Wonder how many other smaller groups were obliterated before this?

If you want you can also read the parable of the ten virgins and then tell me Jesus was speaking of only one class. The 5 virgins were really part of the bride, right? OK? Simple or scholarly, youve chosen. Everybody goes to heaven. Come complete circle? Me? God designed all this, just so all of us can sit in heaven, and view it like a zoo? The earth is going to be one big pen for the animals. Remember, your pope says heavens not a place, its a relationship (sounds like Nirvana too me!).

So have I. I am from a farm, I know Im made from dirt. I was not designed to float. I was designed to LIVE in paradise. Thats all I ask, to live with The Father through His Son Sacrifice for me to do so, in the Paradise He Created - as it was Purposed and will be again - THE NEW EARTH. Thats the Good News, The New Kingdom, Gods - on earth as it is in Heaven.

Now, you can also read the Book of Enoch which the NAB quotes to prove hell-fire from even though the church doesnt consider it inspired. Again, Nor do the Witnesses, even though it actually complements many of their points.

Compare: Enoch 1:1; 50:4; 60:4; 61:18; 64:11,

Really interesting compare Dan 4:14 (NJB) and Enoch 92:3

Again, Witnesses do not study the Book of Enoch. Like the rest of people, they dont even know it exist. Thats partially the CC fought as many were banned, burned and not found again until the late 1700s in an Ethiopian church and then in the Dead Sea scrolls.

As Ive said you have a long history. Just because you can pick the parts you want to follow and only believe the good, I cannot. I dont have that kind of faith. And, you question my honesty to question your authority? You hold the Bible as inspired because some council in the 400's told you too. Many people had already had accepted it long before your council said it was inspired. They already knew it in their hearts, from God. I hold it so, because I try to read it and compare and pray for Gods understanding.

I find it holds up to study against all thats been said against it.

And, you deny my Faith. And, follow men whove preached love in eye, and hate and blood in the other.

Now those of you who want, can go into the Witnesss and their errors and mis-applications of theology if you want. You can hammer them into the ground for all their blunders according to catholic knowledge. Misapply their words as you accuse me of doing yours. Burn them at the stake too. But, remember their history is not as long as yours.

And, those like David P, whom I believe are sincere, but ignoring a few things. The Reformation did not start with Luther. If it did, why did most of northern Europe just side with him out of the blue. Was that actually the case, or was there a boiling underlying, serious question of validity? Would Luther have also been burned at the stake if the leaders of Germany had not have protected him?

Another important question too me, if there is just going to be "one" group in heaven of us converted humans, why does the Catholic Church stress so much the difference between clergy and laymen? Are we laymen stupid as compared to the higher clergy?

Jamey (MGP)

-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), August 22, 1999

Answers

Jamey, i don't intend to enter a discussion with you or any other person. i just want to express some thoughts:

if the bible says taht only 144,000 will be saved ,why worry about the rest?

if David P and others are truly ignorant of church history, i wonder why a mere human institution is still standing, strong and alive, after 2000 years? ( may be i'am also ignorant of history).

why don't you open a teaching position where we can learn the truth from you without any errors from men?

if whatever you are going to teach us is already in the bible, let's just read it and don't waste so much time trying to interpret it. let everyone understand whatever his mind allows him to do, and let the rest alone.

enrique

-- enrique ortiz (eaortiz2@yahoo.com), August 22, 1999.

Enrique ,

I've never said there is only one class, the 144,000. The catholics say there is only one class, ie great crowd w/ the 144,000.

The post above is just saying what you have just said: read it for yourself withour "my" interpretation. I'm just pointing out there is another possibility contrary to yours.

I said many month's ago I did not come to this site to try and convert anybody, just to compare thoughts/interpretation.

The Catholic position as I see it is based on something they deny. The are "two" different types of people. We are not all made with the same capabilities and we will never be so. The earth was not created that way and I do not believe the "new earth" is just going to mysterialy become so.

-- Jamey (jcreel@hcsmail.com), August 22, 1999.