Y2K and Waco September 7, 1999

As Waco headlines continue to grab the nation's attention, a large number of Americans are just now waking up to the reality that most Y2K Newswire readers have known for a long time: the government has been lying to you for (at least) six years.

The important Y2K lesson here is missed by most people: when a cover-up is politically convenient, a cover-up will be pursued. Furthermore, when one part of the cover-up is revealed, the rest of the lie will be maintained for as long as possible. For example, here's what we're getting on the Waco incident:

First, the U.S. government insists it didn't fire "a single shot" at the compound. This, despite the fact that dozens of Branch Davidians died from gunshot wounds. The government's position? "They all just shot themselves."

Second, the U.S. government insists it didn't fire incendiary devices into the compound. In fact, members of the government swore to this testimony under oath.

Now, six years after the incident, it turns out that government officials were sitting on evidence directly contradicting these claims. Incendiary devices were, in fact found on the premises.

Next, we find the tape that proves incendiary devices were, in fact, fired at the compound by government troops. Hearing this, the government says okay, maybe that's true, but they didn't start any fires.

Just a few days later, we learn that secret U.S. Army Delta Force members were illegally on the scene, breaking an important law that prevents any government from staging military assaults on U.S. civilians. The government's explanation? They were only there as "advisors."

Now, today, according to a report filed by Matt Drudge, we learn "...A former government officer has told investigators that members of the secret Army unit Delta Force said they participated in a shoot-out during the final assault on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco." We have yet to see the government reaction to this one, but you can bet it will be something along the lines of, "Okay, maybe they did participate, but they didn't shoot.

Taking all this one step further, we're also learning that congressional investigators are increasingly having to admit the infrared videos shown in the "Rules of Engagement" video documentary do show government troops firing fully-automatic weapons into the compound.

When you get to the bottom of all this, you realize the truth is probably much, much deeper. Here's probably what happened at Waco:

The U.S. government used armored personnel carriers to transport troops who took up strategic positions and fired fully automatic weapons into the compound, killing perhaps dozens of men, women and children.

Government troops also fired incendiary devices into the compound that either started the fire or contributed to the spread of the fire.

People trying to escape the fires were gunned down by government troops.

Realizing they had just shot civilians, the government needed a cover story. The solution? Let the compound burn by preventing the fire department from arriving on the scene. In fact, this is exactly what happened. The compound burned to the ground, conveniently destroying critical evidence.

Now, making this grave mistake, rather than apologizing to the American people and resigning their offices, our country's leaders decided to cover it up. And as the truth was being learned piece by piece, they held their ground on the remaining lies.

Because of this seemingly-desperate attempt to cover up a major law-enforcement mistake, our leaders are setting themselves up for an unprecedented time of government distrust by the general population. And not just by the "radicals," by the way. Most regular folks, when made aware of the facts surrounding Waco, are left speechless. In the same way they don't want to think about Y2K, most people simply stop thinking about what happened at Waco. They don't want to come to grips with the rather credible idea that this government -- of the People, by the People and for the People -- is gunning down some of its People.

Let's face it: as Americans, we easily accept the idea that other countries' governments murder people and then make up cover stories to fool the public. Take China, for example, and the Tiananmen Square incident (June 4, 1989). Using tanks and automatic weapons, they squashed a demonstration calling for freedom. Chinese authorities then fed the "official version" of what happened to their government-controlled press, leaving the rest of the country with the impression that government troops hadn't fired "a single shot."

But most of us are slow to accept the idea that this could happen in America. And it is for exactly the same reason most of us are slow to recognize the real threat of Y2K. We want to believe in our country. We are a patriotic people. And yet, as an example of how tyrranical this country's leadership has become, even the word "patriot" now has negative connotations. Folks, we are not that far from a day when waving the American flag and shouting "Freedom!" will be considered a radical act perpetrated by whackos and militia members. Come to think of it, we may already be there. Try it and see if you get arrested.

The Waco story isn't over, however. This government has a lot of explaining to do. They have still not leveled with the people.

AND THE Y2K ANGLE IS...? Waco directly impacts public perception of Y2K. Here's why: the bigger this Waco story gets, the more the public distrusts the government. And since the primary peddler of the "no big deal" Y2K myth is the government, an erosion of trust in government equals an erosion of belief in explanations covering Y2K. Or, put another way, when the vast majority of Americans finally realize they've been lied to about Waco for six years, they're going to wonder what other lies they're being told.

NOW TAKE A LOOK AT THE RECEDING Y2K DENIALS Examine the parallels between the receding Waco denials and the timeline of Y2K denials:

First, Y2K was a "hoax." It didn't exist.

Later, they admitted it wasn't a hoax. It was a serious problem, but it could all be solved in plenty of time. By September 30, 1998, in fact.

When September arrived and nobody made the deadline, government shifted its deadline to March, 1999 while private business aimed for December 31, 1998. The mainstream line? "We'll all make it by the deadline, don't worry.

Well, when almost nobody made the December 1998 deadline, private industry stopped talking about deadlines are started talking about being "Y2K Ready" instead of "Y2K Compliant." Meanwhile, government discovered it could create the illusion of compliance by redefining which systems were "mission critical."

March, 1999 rolls around and still, nobody is ready. Only this time around, instead of providing documentation of independent audits and hard-core Y2K remediation work, the government hires public relations firms to devise a strategy for attacking factual Y2K information. Their goal? To replace facts with spin in the minds of the American public. The simple fact that nobody was compliant had to be flipped head-over-heels to make people believe that everybody was ready.

As evidence was discovered that pointed to a potential Y2K crisis, government spinmeisters created bizarre explanations that, frankly, sounded a lot like the Waco explanation of "everybody just shot themselves." For example, when Jim Lord went public with the Navy documents that clearly stated "total failure likely" when referencing critical infrastructure in major U.S. cities, our federal government yanked the document from the Navy web site, modified all the data to say, basically, "status unknown," then re-posted the document and issued a barrage of press releases to reassure the American people that what they read wasn't really what they read. "Total failure likely" actually means, "status unknown," didn't you know? Apparently, you don't speak the same language as the U.S. Navy.

As more and more deadlines were missed and things looked worse in the real world, the government's explanations sounded better and better. Apparently, the further we are behind, the better off we'll be. Why? Because Y2K is just a three-day storm.

A look ahead: as we get to December and systems are still not ready, expect the denials to continue. Using some off-world logic, they will figure that even though only thirty days are remaining, everybody is still "on schedule."

MORE Y2K / WACO SIMILARITIES The government's actions on Waco and Y2K demonstrate a gross disregard for the safety of the American public. Consider some of the major things in common:

In both cases, government officials asked you to "trust them" while making sure you don't have access to any evidence that would back up their story.

Mistakes made by government officials result in lost lives.

The government believes that public perception is far more important than fact.

Denials will be upheld for an unlimited duration (or until evidence somehow finds its way to the public arena)

The press will not investigate any story that sounds "too radical" even though it is probably true (they wouldn't touch the pyrotechnic accusation because "credible" government officials had already denied it)

Any real news will only come from an independent, non-mainstream source (in this case, McNulty, the producer of the documentary)

Credible accusations will be called "conspiracy theories" right up to the day they are proven. And once they are proven, the attacks will begin on the messenger.

Proving one lie will never end the denials in other areas. Government officials will defend isolated pockets of lies, one by one, until each one is uncovered.

The federal government is wholly incapable of policing itself.

There will always be brain-numbed soldiers ready to follow the orders of government officials, even if those orders direct them to fire fully-automatic weapons on civilians trying to escape a fire.

Government will always create lies to sway public opinion and justify the escalation of force (i.e. the rumors of "drugs" and "child abuse" about the Waco compound, none of which had any basis in fact -- now we're hearing rumors of "Y2K terrorists." Will they start using the phrase, "Y2K child abuse" soon, too?)

Here's another similarity: people who understand the threat of Y2K are not surprised by the Waco revelations. As it turns out, those Americans who think for themselves have figured out the truth on both counts. For those who already distrust the federal government, to discover one more lie is no surprise. The only people surprised by Waco are those who are just having their eyes propped open for the first time. It's a rude awakening, yes.

THE INVESTIGATION After the Y2K rollover, there will be investigations. Count on it. Someone will be blamed for the mess. The vast majority of Y2K Newswire readers, according to our poll, believe government will attempt to blame those who prepared. This is already being put into place, by the way, with phrases like, "hoarding" and "stockpiling." But if Y2K turns out the way we think it will (and, of course, that's debatable), the real blame rests on those who knowingly understated the Y2K threat -- at the expense of American lives. How will history treat those responsible for the deaths of innocent civilians? Let's face it: if Y2K Newswire is wrong about Y2K, most people end up with some extra water and food in the pantry. No big deal. If the government is wrong about Y2K, there will be fatalities.

Interestingly, half the Y2K Newswire readers who took our "Blame" poll said they would support a criminal trial to bring people to justice for misleading the American people about Y2K. Such a trial is highly unlikely to ever take place, of course (especially under Reno), because the government considers itself immune to most lawsuits. Today's explanation of, "Everybody is ready, nobody is responsible" will soon become, "Nobody was ready, nobody is responsible." Government is not accountable.

But in fact, the accountability of every government stems from the people. Government is only as accountable as the people demand. Thus, it is indirectly the People's responsibility to hold government officials accountable for gross abuses of military power like we saw at Waco. It is also going to be up to the People to hold government officials accountable for their attempts to leave us vulnerable to Y2K.

YOUR TASK Y2K Newswire suggests you keep good records of Y2K assurances from your government, your power company, your water company, your bank, your vendors, and other organizations on which you depend. If failures occur, don't accept a polite apology. Demand resignations. Demand real accountability. Ask the executives who ignored the problems to pay for the damages out of their own pockets.

Sensing the possibility of this type of action, of course, Big Business tag-teamed with Big Government to pass sweeping Y2K liability legislation earlier this year. That means it's going to be almost impossible to sue any organization over Y2K failures for at least 60 days. As a result, if you are physically or financially harmed by Y2K disruptions, that's just too bad. Nobody is accountable.

This isn't sarcasm. This is law.

When you get right down to it, it only takes the courageous actions of a few individuals to change things. McNulty is one example. Without his effort in producing the Waco documentary, some of these facts would not have come to light. In the Y2K arena, there are perhaps a dozen personalities who have already changed the course of history. (According to our poll, Y2K Newswire readers think Gary North has done the most to increase awareness of Y2K.)

The key question here -- and this is one we ask you to consider over the next few days -- is this one: how can you add your own name to history's list of people who helped expose the truth? One way is by e-mailing Y2K Newswire with Y2K-related tips. If you see people in your industry or profession fudging the truth about Y2K, e-mail us at tips@y2knewswire.com

-- Watching the Storm (look@out.com), September 07, 1999

Answers

remember this?: 'I did not have sexual relations with that young lady!' That particular liar is still in office. People simply do not care any more, just so long as the teevees are still full of pretty pictures, and their bellies are full of food. If that ceases to be the case, then watch out!

-- claude (cjwarner@yahoo.com), September 07, 1999.

TV... opiate of the masses.

-- Linda (lwmb@psln.com), September 07, 1999.

I'm basically in agreement with the above essay, with a couple of minor quibbles. I am convinced that there were Delta Force operatives present. I'm equally convinced they assisted the effort, and they may even have done some of the shooting.

I DO NOT accept the description of them as "brain numbed soldiers", however. The sorts of things they do is done on reflexes so fast that the typical observer hasn't had time to make anything like a determination of Friend-Foe by the time they have finished the job. NONE of the evidence put out contains what the briefing was as far as what they were told going in. I would assume that they were given a tactical SitRep at some point and went from there on their own observations. We can only surmise what they were told, and it probably was NOT that there were X men Y women and Z children in there period. They would have seen the abortive initial attempt to "serve the warrant" that ended up with the original shootings, etc. They would have been told about inteligence ref th epossible armaments in the compound, and the design and construction of the compound. Their briefer would have painted the inhabitants as blood thirsty, pointed toothed, red eyed, devils with super-human reflexes. The Delta Force members would then have watched civilians doing what they had been very well and expensively trained to do and watched it being done badly. I can sympathise with the urge to correct the people doing the job badly. I have the same urge when I arive at the scene of an accident, and see the responders doing something incorrect, or at least incorrect according to my training. [And, yes, I am NOT shy about doing the correction, to the point of stepping in, stepping on toes, and doing it right. And, no, I don't make friends, but the victims get the correct care. (Has something to do with the paragod/paragoddess mindset).]

was their intervention wrong? Undoubtably. Was it to be expected? Equally undoubtably. "Let's detail a bunch of the best in the world, to the situation there, so they can advise on the best way to handle things, and we'll just watch and see what happens", with LOTS of unspoken, nudge-nudge-wink-wink expectations.

This is why I expect that a waiver will be "found" in the presidential files of the time period.

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), September 07, 1999.

Chuck, you have brought out some critical points with your post. If, in fact, the Delta Force people were actively involved in Waco, then you may rest assured that they had full command of the situation and a designed game plan to meet their assigned objectives. In the last couple of weeks we have been bombarded with revelations and conspiracy theories, some too absurd to imagine. Myself, I believe that we will never know all of the details and various agendas that came into play over the course of the incident and the following years of cover-up.

I lived in Texas during the incident and had daily contact with a retired FBI field agent that had been a Texas Ranger prior to joining the Bureau. Although we were close friends he rarely spoke of his past activities and would only occasionally comment on the Waco situation as it developed. However, about a week before the final day, we had an interesting conversation where he suggested that one of the Davidian compound insiders had let it be known that Koresh and his right hand group had strategically placed incinderary devices throughout the various buildings. This became the overwhelming concern for the FBI as they felt that Koresh was determined to do a Jim Jones.

Before youall leap on this post, let me state that this information is not confirmable and should fall into the category of possible. Ive seen the various videos of the compound fire when it started and I am convinced that multiple, strategically placed, fires were started simultaneously and raged out of control in seconds. If the incinderary devices that the government forces had allegedly used were responsible for these fires, they would have had to landed in pools of gasoline and all gone off at the same time. Not likely.

What I think really happened is that the government forces felt they had to isolate and immobilize Koresh in order that the rest of his followers could survive. Thus, the tear-gas containers that were fired at the concrete bunker in the final hours and minutes. Just like Jim Jones, Koresh set into motion the final acts that destroyed the compound and all those within. I also believe that many were shot prior to the fires being set, including David Koresh himself.

-- What (do@you.think), September 07, 1999.

Hey, Mr.What..do you ever think?, perhaps you could perhaps watch the documentary befoe giving us your opinion. I'm on the other side of the world, and I've managed to see it four times. (Made easy because our state-run Jackie Chan, premiere league soccer and Euro soft-porn broadcaster, SBS, ran the show in prime time.)

The incendiary devices need not have "landed in pools of gasoline" because the teargas, which was present in huge quantities throughout these people's home, was highly flammable. And the gas was not used only in the last few hours and minutes, it had been there much longer than that. Yes, Koresh was shot prior to the final day, you can see his bullet wound on the video that came out of their house some time during the seige. I don't know if he was again shot and killed before the fire, I haven't cared to look at the autopsy section of the Waco holocaust memorial website, but you can if you wish.

I think Newswire's article is pretty good; they outline the similarity between y2k and Waco very well. Chuck, I agree that the Delta force people are ultra-efficient soldiers, undoubtedly with amazing reflexes etc, but maybe what he was getting at with that "brain numbed soldiers" line is not that their physical capacities are impaired, but perhaps only their moral ones. I suppose they could say that "Ve vere jhust followink orders," but they, and the rest of the alphabet crew, were party to a heinous crime, and that's the kind of thing that you can find yourself involved in whenever you abdicate your moral autonomy to a chain-of-command. It's routine, and no-one questions it much, but that doesn't make it ok.

-- number six (iam_not_a_number@hotmail.com), September 07, 1999.

I am hardly a fan of Koresh, but I realize one man's cult is another man's religion. In this context I can easily compare how the Branch Davidians died to the famous last stand of the Jews at Masada against the Romans. They died for the same reason- there was nothing for them on the outside.

Koresh and the others knew that nothing awaited them but prison or death. Indeed, the survivors were found innocent at trial but then the judge reversed the ruling and jailed them. (There goes our right to a jury trial.) From the psychlogical tactics used against them, the Davidians were correct to assume that they were going to be crushed and destroyed.

The Feds had nothing to offer in the way of 'negotiations'. I wouldn't have come out, either.

We all assume that life, and staying alive, is the highest value. But it isn't always. All your killer can do is deprive you of time, of years. And years of what? Prison? Death row? I don't think so.

As soon as the jackboots arrive at your door, it's over for you. Whether you've done anything or not, you are going away for good. Even a jury won't be able to help you. Would you prefer to live disgraced in a cage, or trade future years of misery for a principled last stand?

I don't think the Davidians were all that crazy in retrospect. Koresh may yet triumph over his enemies, what an irony.

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), September 07, 1999.

Number Six

Ive seen the video and have come to my own conclusions just as you and many others have. I realize that Koresh was wounded early on but that is not what I referred to in my comments. I dont agree with your analysis of the tear gas containers but I could surely be wrong, just as you could. IMHO, it was Koresh who decided the fate of his followers. I doubt if the main body of Davidians had any say as to the final outcome. Now, lets see if these new revelations will result in any real truths being divulged. The irony at this point is that nothing will be believed across the board and the truth, whatever that may be, will be lost in the shuffle.

-- What (do@you.think), September 07, 1999.

What,

You are full of shit, and you know it. You are pandering to people's desire NOT to know what happened there, their desire to think well of their government, and to trust the people who are assuming ever-greater dictatorial control over their lives.

What about the Forward Looking Infrared camera footage, interpreted by the patent-holder for that camera, which shows CLEARLY the tanks setting the fire, and machine-gunners murdering the burning occupants? That's what the guy who invented the camera, for the purpose of detecting just this phenomenon, says is what happened. We all need to wake up and face the facts: this was THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT MAKING WAR ON THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. And if we listen to soothing lies like "we may never know what happened..." instead of SEARCHING HARD FOR THE TRUTH, AND HOLDING ON TO IT TIGHT ONCE WE'VE FOUND IT, we are all of us going to end up like those gassed, burned, shot, crushed children - on the way to a totalitarian "brave new world."

Anyone who WANTS to know what happened there should rent or purchase the video "Waco: The Rules of Engagement." Enough lying already.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 07, 1999.

The FLIR Tape: Evidence That The FBI Started The Fire?

FBI obtained pyrophoric ammunition from army

David Hardy is the Tucson lawyer that has been pestering the federal government with Freedom of Information requests for Waco related material.

One of the items Hardy has unearthed is a memo showing that some eleven days into the Davidian siege, the FBI obtained 40 mm illuminating ammunition from the army.

From this page of Hardy's site we learn that:

The illuminating ammunition is pyrophoric (capable of igniting spontaneously in air) The FBI had previously set fire to a cabin using 40 mm illuminating ammunition The FBI acquired 50 rounds of 40 mm illuminating ammunition 11 days after the Davidian siege began. The Davidian buildings burned to the ground The FBI was allowed to keep the 'unfired' illuminating ammunition

Hardy points out that since the Davidian buildings were illuminated with million-candle-power search lights (e.g. click here), that it is difficult to understand the need for the illuminating ammunition.

Moreover, with the FBI allowing to keep the unfired ammunition, there was no need for paperwork showing the number of rounds returned to the army; no paperwork indicating if any of the pyrophoric rounds had been fired.

McNulty finds pyrophoric ammunition in Waco evidence

On Sunday, 5 September, David Hardy and Michael McNulty, producer for the film Waco: The Rules of Engagement and Waco: A New Revelation, appeared on Fox News Sunday (a portion of that the transcript appears at the end of this article.)

Tony Snow asked about the possibility that the conflagration at the Davidian complex was started by the FBI or Delta Force; Juan Williams followed up with a question to McNulty and McNulty said:

40 mm projectiles which preliminary analysis shows to be pyrophoric ammunition, were found in the evidence held by the Texas Rangers There are indications that the 40 mm pyrophoric ammunition passed through the Davidian building. That the 40 mm pyrophoric ammunition had a 'submunition' (apparently and explosive used to disperse the pyrophoric material into the air; in other words, the submunition would fire first dispersing the pyrophoric material, which would then ignite).

Double flash visible in FLIR tape

A sequence from the film Waco: The Rules of Engagement shows a tank backing away from the Davidian complex. As the tank retreats, the FLIR picks up a double flash inside the Building.

Here is how Dr. Allard describes this double flash in Waco: The Rules of Engagement:

That flash was so bright that the operator of the FLIR thought it was so significant that he decided to fix his cursor in that area to remind him or other people looking at the tape that there was a very significant flash in the window.

Now when we see it in slow motion, and we see the flash, it appears to be a single flash, but it is not a single flash. It is actually two flashes, a primary flash and a secondary flash and both of these flashes last about 1/2 second each.

They are most likely detonations inside the building itself.

Evidence of a pyrophoric round igniting inside the Davidian complex?

Infrared does not record light, but heat. Reflected sunlight does not generate enough heat to record on infrared film.

Therefore, the flashes recorded on the FLIR is not the result of reflected sunlight as officially claimed.

So what caused the double flash recorded on the FBI FLIR tape?

Could the double flash visible on the FLIR tape the result of an illuminating round that was fired into the Davidian complex?

Was the first flash caused by the submunition firing and the second flash caused by the ignition of the pyrophoric material in the round?

Fox News Sunday

The following is a portion of the transcript of Fox News Sunday for September 5, 1999, emphasis is mine. The full transcript may be read here: . . .

WILLIAMS: Mr. McNulty, let me just quickly ask: you have gone through some of these evidence bunkers held by the Texas Rangers. We know about the first pair of projectiles that you argue may have started this fire. But now I hear that you're saying there's a second pair. Is that correct?

MCNULTY: Yes, sir. And, in fact, I'm afraid the Texas Rangers don't have any bunkers that they keep their evidence in but they are lockers. And one of the devices that is indeed basically problematical here, we've talked about devices that yield a tear gas residue or tear gas smoke.

In fact, we found other devices -- 40 millimeter projectiles -- that were in the process of testing. They look very similar to these. However, this is a dummy round so the cameraman doesn't have to be concerned.

But the rounds that we found looked very similar to these. They're black and silver in color. They had a residue in them from a **submunition that we're in the process of analyzing at this time**.

Our team, that's part of the MGA Films production team, in fact has been working on this for several months. **We believe that the residue as well -- we know that the residues are at least pyrotechnic; and indeed, they may be pyroforic (ph) or, as some people have been throwing the word around loosely, incendiary**.

WILLIAMS: Well, now, an editor for Jane's Defense Weekly said this week that looking at those canisters, he can see that they're not scorched; they're not blistered; and, therefore, could not have ignited a blaze.

MCNULTY: Well, I'm not quite sure which canisters he's speaking about. **We're talking about 40 millimeter projectiles. These projectiles -- there are some indicators in our analysis that say that indeed these projectiles passed through the building**.

-- Liberty (liberty@thready.now), September 07, 1999.

Mr. Liberty,

Ive seen the movie Waco, rules of engagement and find it to be a cleverly crafted anti-government spin-o-rama. There are undoubtedly many little truths in the content but to suggest that this is the ultimate truth is irrational. The fact that you are on a crusade to promote this film just certifies its appeal to extremists such as yourself. The real danger is having nut cases like you spouting your bullshit as if it were the gospel. You dont know what happened anymore than I and for you to spend so much time touting this film makes your motivations and agenda suspect. You sound like another of lifes losers looking for someone or something to blame for your miserable existence. This forum seems to be overly populated with far right weirdos so I will expect to see a steady procession of foaming- at-the-mouth responses. Fortunately, as corrupted as our system of government may be, it can still keep curs like you in check. Remember Mr. Liberty, the concept of freedom is also extended to those who live in moderation and bring more to this Nations table than you are capable of.

-- What (do@you.think), September 07, 1999.

Thank you for your kind words, "What." Unfortunately, you've stepped on your own tounge in suggesting that people such as myself be supressed for holding a non-approved opinion. Isn't that why the Davidians were such an expendable target? Allowing this evil game of (as one TB2000 poster put it) "beat up the weirdo" is going to come back and hit us ALL in the face, eventually. That's the whole idea of keeping the military out of law enforcement; like "civil forfeiture," (police stealing property on mere suspicion), the founding fathers recognized the use of troops against citizens -for ANY reason- as an act of tyranny. But if you view your political and cultural enemies as "curs," I suppose it's easier to "keep them in check" - with tanks and gas and bullets, if necessary, the Constitution and the law be damned.

Where did I say that the Waco film was "the ultimate truth?" This is an obviously absurd idea, and therefore easy for you to dismiss with an angry flourish. If there's proof beyond a reasonable doubt, that's enough - no use whining if you don't like it. The McNulty films aren't "ultimate truth;" they DID, however, prompt the current probe into the use of Delta Force troops. They've been studiously ignored by congress and the media - until very recently. Some of this change is due to the lawsuits, but a lot of it is because "extremists" like me (and other of "life's losers" who work for a living and have kids and go to church on Sunday) have talked about this evidence, and demanded justice. There is now a groundswell of public opinion, that the government was at fault at Waco. And the FBI admits they LIED to Congress. Am I more "antigovernment" than the FBI itself?

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 07, 1999.

Vernon Howell (AKA: David Koresh) was no more than a spineless egomaniac, using the cover of religion to mask his illegal activities. He hid behind the women and children and the 50 biggest mistakes made by the government forces were the number of days they waited before taking aggressive action and taking him out. Hey Liberty, screw your version of a perfect world. If that chicken shit Howell would have let the women and children leave, he could have gone up in flames by hisself-no loss there. Where in the hell do you live Liberty? The next time the SHTF in your area lets make sure none of the evil law enforcement folks come to save your sorry ass. If your idea of freedom is letting the crazies run amuck, then Ill gladly except some restrictions.

-- Enough (of@this.shit), September 07, 1999.

"Enough,"

And would you have confiscated the remains of the Davidians and fed them to your pit bulls, if you were in charge? A lot of Viet Nam Vets were unjustly called "babykiller," but here we have the real thing...

Listen closely to these apologists for Waco, folks. They are your future. They are voicing the opinion that the jackbooted thugs and their masters are concealing. There will come a day when they no longer have to conceal their true feelings for you. It will be the day after the last gun has been confiscated from the last citizen.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 07, 1999.

And Koresh was a run of the mill gun dealer, a convenient target for a high-profile raid, due to his "kooky" religious beliefs. There was and remains no evidence that he did or possessed anything illegal. The only "crazies" "running amok" were the BATF, the FBI and Delta Force - at the behest of the White House, in violation of the Posse Comitatus Act.

You are an ignorant thug, "Enough." When you are old enough to have a child, perhaps you will understand the meaning of what was lost at Waco.

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 07, 1999.

Liberty, you are an ignorant asshole. I have 3 grandchildren, each of who have more common sense then you will ever obtain. You keep adding these statements like feeding the remains to pit bulls. Dude, you are just a disturbed little nobody and your take on Waco is so distorted as to not be taken with a grain of salt. You are a disgrace to the word liberty and should change your name to fantasy.

-- Enough (of@this.shit), September 07, 1999.

Enough

Dont be hard on ole Liberty. He is extremely passionate in his beliefs; most of them developed from watching his pet film over and over. The problem is he conveniently leaves out some very important facts, such as Koresh going back on his word to surrender. Thats right folks, I did say surrender, which correctly describes the state of affairs after the ATF agents were shot by the Davidians. Liberty is willing to forgive Koresh for his actions in order that he maximizes the blame onto the government forces. But to call him an ignorant asshole may be a tad harsh. He is just an extremist with tunnel vision and cant bear to find some middle ground on Waco. He is able to paint the Davidians as total victims and that is where I find fault with his opinions. To his credit, he has not yet subscribed to some of the more outlandish scenarios that have attached themselves to Waco. Liberty, we do agree on one aspect of this tragedy. Hopefully, it will be the platform for ridding this country of Clinton, Janet Reno, and others that will shoulder blame where proven. Koresh may be beyond prosecution but not persecution for his deeds.

-- For (your@info.com), September 07, 1999.

Liberty: "Listen closely to these apologists for Waco, folks. They are your future."

Liberty "gets it". Fifty years ago, if Liberty had been a Jew in Germany, he/she would have had the wisdom to leave in time, but probably would have stayed behind to smuggle as many children out as possible.

There are some troubling unanswered questions about Waco. Perhaps instead of cussing and name calling, you could give a reasonable answer?

Can you explain why the BATF didn't arrest Koresh the day they accepted his invitation to practice target shooting?

Can you explain why the BATF declined the sheriff's offer to pick up Koresh on one of his REGULAR visits to town?

Can you explain why an Arkansas-based BATF agent, known to be a friend of Bill C., was working on trying to drum up a charge of child abuse long before the raid?

Can you explain why Len Horiuchi, the Ruby Ridge murderer, was also at Waco?

Can you explain why the Feds removed and destroyed evidence?

Can you explain why the Feds insisted that the women and children died of being crushed and suffocated by the ceiling of the concrete food storage room falling, when it actually did not fall until long after they had died? Can you explain why the bodies found there were in extremely varying stages of decomposition? Can you explain why maggots were present, the kind from flies that would not have been able to lay them, had the bodies been buried all along? Can you explain why so many bodies were mutilated, dismembered and decapitated? Including children! All they found of one little girl were her legs! (A falling ceiling does not magically remove body parts into thin air.)

Can you explain why a military person is risking his life to testify that Delta force was actively involved in firing on American citizens?

Can you explain why the raid occurred when the charges of illegal weapons, illegal drugs, and child abuse were all investigated and found to have no substantive evidence to uphold them? Can you explain why the government would get involved to that degree when child abuse is not under federal jurisdiction? Do you know what the charge against them was? (Supposedly some small amount of money of unpaid weapon taxes...)

Can you be sure that Promis had nothing to do with this?

Can you explain why you believe those people could not leave, when the Fed's own videotape taken right before the slaughter clearly shows otherwise? Can you explain why the Feds withheld this videotape, other than it portraying the "Cult Monsters" as seemingly normal people? (At least too normal for 'comfort')

Can you explain why you judge Koresh for delaying and negotiating terms of surrender, when the Feds reneged on their promise to show a taped message, and a 911 call verifies that the Feds were shooting like wildmen into the compound, while an attorney, Mr. Martin, frantically begs for them to stop, because Davidians are being shot?

Can you explain why the Feds can produce no evidence that the Davidians even fired back, other than four BATF agents? Can you explain why those four BATF agents were shot in a manner that a professional sniper/assasin would use? Why three of those dead agents had identical head shots, and the other an expertly placed shot that severed the aorta to his heart? Can you explain the coincidence that these four dead agents had formerly been involved with Bill Clinton, the Lethal Carrier of the "Arkansas Flu"?

Can you explain why, in the name of protecting children, they gassed with a deadly banned gas?

Can you explain why they used psychological warfare, such as bright lights, and the sounds of a rabbit being murdered, against the advice of expert negotiators?

Can you explain why the *&#$@*&#@$ hurry, when the lives of innocent children were at stake?

Can you explain why we allow a travesty of justice, rights being trampled, and people slaughtered, and we just excuse and justify it because we don't like their religion, and accept as gospel truth the spin that he was an abusive monster?

Are we brain dead? Are we heartless? ARE WE NEXT?

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 08, 1999.

Mumsie asks 'are we brain dead'. Yes, you appear to be based on your post. To compare Waco to the Holocaust is an unforgivable insult and you should turn yourself in for treatment. When this new investigation is over, the results wont matter to you will they? You and others will write everything off as another government conspiracy unless all of your far-fetched theories are proven beyond doubt. In the end, you will see that regardless of what you think happened, it was Koresh and his close knit group of Davidian enforcers that set the fires. In the end, you will see that the intimidating actions of the government were designed to separate the Davidians from Koresh and bring a peaceful conclusion to the siege. In the end, you will see what kind of person Vernon Howell was and why HE is responsible for the outcome. In the end, you will feel betrayed by your own mind for imagining such crap. In the end, you can refocus your efforts on that terrible monster, Congressman Ryan that caused all of those poor women and children to die so horribly in Jonestown.

-- For (your@info.com), September 08, 1999.

http://www.dabney.com/WacoMuseum/

-- J (jart5@bellsouth.net), September 08, 1999.

For your....

You sound very short-sighted, and once again, you sling mud rather than deal with specifics.

Regarding the Holocaust, the terrible genocide that was perpetrated in the infamous camps, was preceded by and laid upon a foundation that was carefully built by Hitler and his henchmen. I am not comparing Waco, in and of itself, to the Holocaust. (I did compare Liberty to the type of person that fought the Holocaust. ) That is a leap that your mind took without critically thinking. I am comparing Waco to what foreshadowed the Holocaust and the kind of incidents that the Nazis perpetrated that led to their ultimately being able to round up people into ghettos, to arrest them illegally without any other indictment against them other than their being a dirty Jew and make them disappear into the night, and finally murder them in mind-boggling numbers in the death camps. The fear that incident after incident of maligning and violently persecuting Jews created led to an atmosphere where people would rather shrug off what happened to the dirty crazy monstrous Jews than to deal with any moral accountability and complicity. I have Jewish ancestors, so if I had lived there then, I would have been rounded up as well. Waco is not even Krystal Nacht, but it is leading to one. You have obviously swallowed whatever the government and its personal press wanted you to. Do you think the government is lying about lying? I have not made any solid conclusions about Waco yet, but my questions remain unanswered. Those unanswered questions have sinister implications. Who is more foolish? One who believes in the "goodness" of government, or one who believes that government is typically made up of corruptible, fallible, often power seeking people who will cheat, steal, and yes, LIE, if it is a self-serving action that will COVER THEIR ASS! And, according to your naive theory, that the government wanted to merely intimidate and separate Koresh from his followers, why didn't the BATF just arrest him when they were out shooting together? Why did the Feds decline the local sheriff's offer to pick up Koresh when he made one of his predictably frequent visits to town? Stop insulting those who disagree with you, and answer some questions logically. Give us your reasonable explanation to the questions above. Or are you merely a sycophant of the government?

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 08, 1999.

Thanks Mumsie, that about sums it up. It's an "Emperor's New Clothes" situation, to a T. People like "For" are not going to answer your questions, because they have no answers to give. They will continue to demonize their Davidian victims, and accuse them of crimes for which that have not the least shred of proof. In dealing with those who wish to keep the Federal government restrained from assaults on the People and the Constitution, they will just keep calling names, threatening people, and working toward a time when they can rewrite the history of Waco, finally and decisively. Let's make that as difficult as possible for them, shall we?

Liberty

-- Liberty (liberty@theready.now), September 08, 1999.

Liberty, my email is legit if you ever care to correspond.

-- Mumsie (Shezdremn@aol.com), September 08, 1999.

Liberty and Mumsie..

This will be my last post regarding the Waco situation. I will wait, as will you and the rest of the world, to see the final outcome from the investigation. When it is all said and done, and your version of Waco turns out to be correct, I will publicly apologize for disbelieving the government plot you are putting forth. There is no reasoning with you on this subject so why bother. I can only trust that you have not completely given up on our government and will have some degree of faith in the findings of the appointed committee. Whats the alternative? You folks sound like nobody in government service can be trusted, so where do we go from here? Who would you have run our country? If we have digressed as far as you would have us believe, how can we recover? Present a problem, present a solution. BTW, the FBI sharpshooter (Lloyd) was at Ruby Ridge and Waco because he works for the FBI. You would expect him to be present at both of these incidents, would you not? This cant be too hard to understand can it? Im not going to completely give up on our government, because I have faith in our constitution and the ability of Americans to set things straight. And I will never forgive people like Vernon Howell who drag innocent, gullible people into their hellish sewers.

-- For (your@info.com), September 08, 1999.

Scuse'...make that (Len) not (Lloyd).

-- For (your@info.com), September 08, 1999.

World History, Fall Exam

Question 1:

Name two governments in this century that purposely segregated a religious minority among its own citizens, terrorized it with overwhelming force, gassed it, burnt its remains, and then denied any wrongdoing.

Question 2:

Why does a government become everything it once despised?

Question 3:

Should you care?

-- Nathan (nospam@all.com), September 08, 1999.