I have been reading quite a few posts lately describing this or that scenario where "someone" told "someone" that martial law was to be impleted before January by "such and such" time.

Our military troop strength in numbers is extremely low, and has shrunk by the 100's of thousands since I bailed out (retired) after Desert Storm. Does anyone that reads these posts honestly believe that our current administration could have a credible ability to impose martial law on 120 major cities in the U.S.A.? We have troops that are currently in South Korea, Bosnia, Kosovo, Southern Turkey, Northern Saudia Arabia, etc. not to mention the others scattered all over the world from S. America, all over Europe and the other parts of the Far East.

People, get a grip! Our fighting force is a hollow shell. Martial law would only work if you had sheeple willing to cooperate on the "honor system," because there aren't enough bodies in uniform that know how to handle a weapon, that could possibly enforce such a plan. Besides that, too many of the young people today don't have the will to fight for the "American way of life." The all volunteer Army plan implemented over two decades ago, has now created a military of opportunists with no concept of patriotism, only an attitude of "what's in it for me?"

The only way an effective post Y2K martial law plan could possibly be implemented would be for Klinton to invite a few million Chinese troops over to keep order in our cities.

Most of todays American "young warriors" are wearing BDU's for the educational benefits, not to risk getting shot.

No offense to the females, but over the past 20 years I witnessed the "feminization" of the U.S. military with increased quotas of women, and women being put in formerly "males only" career fields.

In one of my old career fields we loaded 500 lb, to 2000 lb bombs on tactical aircraft, as well as 20mm, and 30mm ammo, along with various missiles. With very few exceptions, the women were a hindrance to the effective accomplishment of the mission. This is because most lacked the upper body strength to assist in loading AIM-9 missiles on the wingtips of F-16's, as well as other tactical aircraft. They also lacked the physical strength to peform much of the required maintenance that was performed on a daily basis. And if the woman on your load crew was supposed to connect the ALS to the access panel on the aircraft, you were doubly screwed, as most couldn't lift the interface up high enough to connect it to the panel. During integrated combat turnarounds (ICT's) time is critical, so on a 3-person loading crew, you actually are a 2.5 person crew, as someone always has to help the "helpless" female.

I know this is going to blow some air up some feminists skirt, but the truth always hurts. As far as Y2K and martial law goes, I can just see some partime female National Guardsmen attempting to secure an area of a city, but their arms are tired from carrying that "big" rifle. Geez, give me a break! Except for the few "Butch" shemales that are capable of carrying heavy loads, and the guts to carry out the mission, the rest should stick to what they do best, whatever that is.

Our "politically correct" government policies have created a military force that is much more polite. They don't swear near as much, and they look and smell much cleaner than our military forces from previous wars. If we didn't have a technological superiority in our high tech weaponry, we would have gotten our butts kicked a long time ago. It's the truth people, deal with it.

-- Grill Sergeant (USAFRET@takinit.easy), September 19, 1999

Answers

Its a good thing you are out of the service, you are a angry old, insecure little man.

So what if a woman doesnt have the upper body strength of a man, they can do thousands of other things just as good as a man.

Go stare at yourself in the mirror, you probably have some kind of a personal complex you need to deal with.

-- hamster (hamster@mycage.com), September 19, 1999.

Grill Sarg,

Boy are you going to get in trouble over those statements about females. From my own personal experience I find that women easily outdo us in many areas. They tend to stick to things longer without complaint. They manage to move heavy objects around without resorting to simple brute muscle. I have marveled at how my wife constantly moves furniture around (to get a "different look) which I would have been really huffing and straining over.

As to martial law, you are looking too closely at military issues only. Martial law would be enforced through FEMA, and they would utilize all police and quasi-police groups, including firefighters. The population in areas such as cities will probably welcome this sort of control if it brings in food, water, and fuel. Whether there is resistance in the longer run will depend on how the "authorities" deal with basic human rights and property ownership. For instance, if they decide to try to confiscate a lot of personal property, including guns, there may very well be a stong reaction from some folks.

-- Gordon (gpconnolly@aol.com), September 19, 1999.

Darn. I thought this thread would tell me how we could impose martial law on the men.

-- Mara Wayne (MaraWayne@aol.com), September 19, 1999.

It doesn't appear to me that you have any clue as to what "feminism" is. Contrary to the PR in the last 15-20 years, it is not about equity, or joining the boys' club. It is a worldview, and a way of living that is not about militarism, among other things. I frankly can't understand why any woman would want to be a part of any military, but if some do, fine; but all women who join the prevailing system, thinking they'll change it, only continue to give their energy to a closed, destructive, and eventually defunct system. Women remain totally male-identified in 1999 because they have to be, not because they've thought it out. And most women who say they are feminists (although most say "I'm not a feminist BUT) are not.

Those who want peace live peacefully every moment.

-- Tiger Swallowtail (outofourminds@wildfire.com), September 19, 1999.

We have never tested the feminized military in combat. When the women come home in the body bags, policies will change.

The Israelis used to put women in combat positions, but ceased doing so when they discovered that the males in the unit instinctively protected the woman at the detriment of taking the risks needed to accomplish the mission. The Israelis now limit the role of women, without any political backlash in Israel, probably because the people there accept the fact that victory is utterly essential for survival.

There are simply places women do not belong. This is not politically correct, but reality, and reality wins all arguments. Our recent wars have been so close to casualty-free that we have been given a free ride for now on this issue. If and when we start to fight a real war with real deaths, this will change, because reality will re-assert itself. Then our current policy will be seen historically as one of the oddball social engineering effects of the recent political environment.

I have never been in the service, but I am surrounded by people who have been and are still. Morale is very low and going lower. Almost none of them respect Clinton or the brass anymore, nor would they follow him if y2k led to martial law. If we have to fight any real wars soon, we will have to depend on the draft.

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), September 19, 1999.

Hamster, Your name says it all. Stay in your cage. I am not the one that put when in the military in jobs that they cannot do physically. Don't kill the messenger because you don't like the message. Israel is right on target. Get them out of the combat related career fields and give them other responsibilities. As for the guy huffing and puffing, lose that beer belly, and learn to walk. Oh by the way, I retired at age 38, and am now 43. I don't think that really qualifies me as an angry old man. My original statements still stand. Women shouldn't play soldier, they can't do it effectively.

-- Grill Sergeant (USAFRET@takinit.easy), September 19, 1999.

Much as I hate to admit it, I must agree with the grill sergeant. I was in the Army for 4 years. I had women in our unit that could out work many of the men. But they were few and far between. The rest of them were busying making babies. I was in the infantry and damn glad I never had to see any combat action. I know that had I been wounded, I would have died on the battlefied if I had to depend on any woman to dead lift me (200 lbs) out of any hostile fire area.

-- John Waynski (555@hut234.mil), September 19, 1999.

As a firefighter/EMT for years I have a few comments to make. I have always believed there should be physical agility and ability minimums for both men and women for some jobs (like soldiering, firefighting, etc.). I know quite a few women probably as strong as you who are well suited for the physical side of things. I also believe that there are some areas in the military where women, in general, would excel (or smaller statured men as well).

On the flip side I also have witnessed affirmative action, consent decree, and other "politically correct" efforts distorted and producing a huge mess: Women using hair spray and complaining of "cramps" while heading to forest fires, reverse descrimination in hiring, etc.

There are no simple answers but please do not stereotype and paint everyone with the same brush. I may have had to use a nylon strap (always in my pocket) to drag/extricate an unconscious person of 250 lbs or more from a fire (in training) but the job got done and done well. I have also witnessed macho ribbing which encourages young men (and women - I was one) to do stupid power-lifts and screw up their backs forever. Sigh..... sorry for the rant..... It all seems so messed up! I guess I should mention I am a 5'3" woman.

-- Kristi (securxsys@cs.com), September 19, 1999.

What is the agenda of NOW, other than promoting lesbianism, hating men and having a blind eye and silent tongue to Bill's and Hillary's soap opera?

-- Sir Laughsalot (Manamong@man.com), September 19, 1999.

This reminds me of a joke,

Question: What do you get if all the men in the world disappear overnight?

Answer: A lot of fat happy women, and no crime rate.

I like this joke,...but the reality is that men aren't going to disappear, and neither will women and feminism.

Like it or not we have to deal with each other on a professional basis. I understand that change is hard, but grow up.

The feminist movement has been around for a long time it's been through a couple of name changes, like suffragettes and the temperance movement, but it's the same thing. You can bet as long as there is unfair treatment, the movement will continue.

Because of unfair treatment, women have had to fight and win their rights. Women have fought this battle in all arenas,politically, personally, and even physically. Grill, no one gave us anything. No one hands over power...you of all people should understand that truth.

Finally, your whole argument against women in the military is that they lack upper body strength. If that's the major problem, then I have a solution. You can do the grunt work, while women do the thinking.

In your case Grill, you would be wise to take that deal since thinking isn't one of your strong points.

-- Mabel Dodge (cynical@me.net), September 19, 1999.

Mabel, I will agree with you on one of your points, which is really my entire point. Women shouldn't be doing "man" work. Let them do the clerical, food service, office work, etc.

Don't put them, in the name of "women's rights" into physically challenging jobs that most are incapable of, and many of the rest can only feebly perform.

One of the biggest jokes in military clothing is the maternity battle dress uniform (BDU). There is not a branch of service in the United States, that is going to knowingly send a pregnant female into combat. Let's stop all the bantering and get real. The maternity BDU uniform was designed to make those women that are already "dead space" in a combat unit, feel more comfortable in uniform, while they have their boot waiver and wear their white tennis shoes, because of being bloated during pregnancy. I call them "dead space" because if a military unit has to deploy, the unit will be one short because momma to be can't go attend to her pre-natal visits when expecting, and fight a war. Please, help your fellow women. Take them out of the "grunt" fields, and put them behind a desk lifting heavy things like coffee mugs and pencils.

-- Grill Sergeant (USAFRET@takinit.easy), September 19, 1999.

What!?! Maternity BDU's? Reminds me of this little riddle...

In 1964, the women went out to war...

They lost their guns, and used their bums...

and that was the end of the war.

Lets put more women in combat units, there may never be another battle fought.

-- Joseph (taxpayer@irs.com), September 19, 1999.

Women in the military? Sure, why not. But they must conform to the SAME physical standards and rigors that the males do. Currently they are not as high. Why not? National security needs to take a higher priority than EO stipulations. Military and civilian spheres are entirely different and separate. In the military things must be done toward the end of necessity. In the civic realm things must be done toward the end of liberty. When it comes to killing people, getting your ass shot off, and blowing things up, liberty and necessity are incompatible.

Women in forward combat positions? No, thank you. Civilization is based on the instinctual drive of the men to protect and cherish the women and children. Once we lose that instinct (we already ARE losing it, in large degree), we start churning out garbage in the media which glorifies the defilement, abuse, and destruction of women and children.

I think women are special. They are unique, different, and on a different plane of existence than men. They need every opportunity to succeed and fulfil their dreams--with the exception of being shot at.

Men and boys often LIKE beating the crap out of each other and being cold and impersonal to each other; it wins them applause and affection. It gets them the babes. But if men treat women the same way they treat other men, women get stepped on, impregnated, raped, and hung out to dry...and that's the sad reality. Men often like to play rough, get smelly and dirty, break some bones, and talk about things in a not-so- nice way in the locker room. Men are in competition with one another to Be Number One by any means necessary. Is it no surprise that women who want to be treated "equally" often get treated "equally badly?" This barbed comment is in no way meant to "shift the blame" toward women. It's just that equality is not possible. I'm not talking about justifying male superiority and all that macho BS. I'm just scoffing about how possible it is make men and women equal in the same way that circles and squares can be made equal.

Furthermore, as Forrest pointed out, it's bad for morale as per the Isreali example. In our general population there is a higher percentage of physically combat-worthy 18-25 year-old males than 18-25 year-old combat-worthy females. Yes I'm sure that there are some women out there who could kick some serious butt. However, in a co-ed combat unit the men are going to sacrifice the mission's success in order to protect the women from harm. The combat mission's purpose is not to please the voters at the polls. It is to dismember and grind the enemy into little pieces before the enemy has a chance to do it to you. With women around in the front lines, the men aren't going to fight as hard because unit cohesion will be severely sacrificed.

-- coprolith (coprolith@rocketship.com), September 19, 1999.

Grill, you sound like a manly man, who likes the company of other manly men. I'm sure you're a 200lb buff stud, and would prefer the company of the same. But you are the exception, physical abilities vary with age, genetics, health, ect.

I have seen plenty of shrimpy men in my life and plenty of strong women. Are you suggesting that only buff studs need apply, in today's army?

I'm surprise you made it to Sergeant, I would think that even a Sergeant would have to have basic managerial skills and know how to build a good team, using every talent available. Good managers ignore stereotypes and make decisions on how to best get the job done.

After all that shrimpy man may be a good shot, and that 200 pounder may not have the sense to come in out of the rain.

It pays to look past stereotypes, unless you just want to get your own rocks off.

Were you forced into retirement Grill?

-- Mabel Dodge (cynical@me.net), September 19, 1999.

allow me to reiterate a point made by others long ago:

the power structure does not need MANY armed trops to control an overwhelmingly larger unarmed population;

it just publically executes a few so-called "rabble-rousers or subversives" ["who me?"] quickly, without remorse or compassion ["with extreme cruelty"... } in the very early stages of the imposition of the law, and the rest of the population will cower to the few armed troops left to herd them afterwards;

thus, speculation about the original question ["Does anyone that reads these posts honestly believe that our current administration could have a credible ability to impose martial law on 120 major cities in the U.S.A.?"] is not the right question to be asking;

the real question is : how will YOU react when your neighbor is summarily executed by the invaders in the presence of you and your children? [need I refer you to WACO? or Ruby Ridge?]

a bit of reading of history ought to convince all that the implementation of martial law by a VERY few on the many is VERY possible - with very FEW armed troops

shall we stay on-point? and discuss the real issue, rather than the smokescreen ?

Thanks,

Perry

-- Perry Arnett (pjarnett@pdqnet.net), September 19, 1999.

Women do clerical and food service? LOL! How about nonphysical jobs like General and Admiral--and pilot (since women have better reaction times and are much more detail oriented). No offense to the guys and your nice muscles.

-- Mara Wayne (MaraWayne@aol.com), September 19, 1999.

Mabel, Who is stereotyping who? Have you re-read your past few paragraphs? Am I a manly man? I happen to be a happily married man to a beautiful woman that I have been married to for 20 years. We have five beautiful children!

Enough already with the not so hidden insinuations. Was I forced to retire? Give me another break. I jumped at the opportunity to get out of a PC organization that our military has become. FYI when I did decide to retire, I had been a MSGT the last 5 years of my career. Yes, I had plenty of managerial experience. I also had my share of "grunt" work, and I had to make the decisions very often concerning where to place the women in that career field. Don't be so offended by the fact that most women cannot lift 75 lbs up over their heads and connect an ammunition loading system to an aircraft access panel. Accept your role in society as who you are and be happy. I am. I am also saddened that the best come back you can come back with is a put down. That speaks volumes for your intellectual capacity. Now who is stereotyping whom?

-- Grill Sergeant (USAFRET@takinit.easy), September 19, 1999.

Grill: The current cult of gender equality could have risen only in a high tech society in which one's survival does not depend upon physical strength. Throughout history until perhaps the beginning of the 20th century, most work was physical and since men tend to be physically stronger than women, they ran things, which makes sense given those conditions. Once it became possible to survive without relying on physical strength (and accompanying traits such as grit, ruthlessness, a willingness to get violent when necessary to protect ourselves and our families), women were able to demand equality for the first time. Now they have it and they, most of them, like it and don't want to give it up. Unfortunately for them, if Y2K is as bad as I suspect it will be, this whole equality concept is going to be completely obsolete about six months from now.

To all you ladies: It doesn't matter whether you or I think women should be equal to men in all things. What matters is whether this concept is connected to reality or not and for 99.99999999999% of human history it has not been so connected. Y2K is likely to return us to the way things have always been regarding men and women, and there's not a thing we can do about it.

-- cody (cody@y2ksurvive.com), September 19, 1999.

Or, put another way, when muscles rule, men rule; when brains rule, men and women rule together.

-- cody (cody@y2ksurvive.com), September 19, 1999.

Ohhh guess I pressed a few buttons there...don't worry your manhood is still intact.

I'm to "accept" my role in society based on whether or not I can lift 75lbs over my head? Give me a break, you sir are not a manager, or a leader, or anything but a whinny baby. If you can't get your troops to do a job, don't blame feminism blame yourself. The imperfection is definitely yours.

I'm happy to hear your retired, our country doesn't need any more bad management. What it needs are people who aren't afraid to do the job. You may be able to lift 75 lb. over your head, but obviously you're too afraid to confront people when you think they are wrong.

If you feel that a person can't do a job, have the balls to deal with the problem. You stated, " I jumped at the opportunity to get out of a PC organization that our military has become." Bull shit, what you mean to say is that you didn't have the guts to deal so you bailed. Let me guess you ran into a few women, that didn't do their job. You were afraid to correct the situation, because you might get in trouble, poor baby.

In your mind to excuse YOUR imperfection, you tell yourself that ALL women can't do their job.

Leadership isn't easy, and it's not for everyone. I'm glad you have accepted your role in society by retiring.

-- Mabel Dodge (cynical@me.net), September 19, 1999.

Mabel, Obviously you never served in the U.S. Armed Forces for a week, a day, or an hour. Had you done so, you would be fully aware of the repercussions of "going up the chain of command" with a young woman who cannot do her job because of physical limitations, only to be charged with sexual discrimination.

What the military organization obviously needs is more people like yourself who can "SHOUT" their way through any situation. You and all who think like you are one big joke to me. I appreciate a "real" woman who enjoys her femininity, and walks, talks, and speaks like a lady. Much like my beautiful wife, who is perfect in everyway. You on the other hand...could use some self discilpine, and a good dictionary, as evident by your need to use expletives to express yourself forcefully.

I haven't retired from society. My earnings since military retirement have shot up ten fold, thanks to my "can do" attitude coupled with my energy to go through, over, or around the dead weights of the business world. You have used up your alloted time of my energy. Have a nice day!

-- Grill Sergeant (USAFRET@takinit.easy), September 19, 1999.

Grill: I think the highly emotional manner in which some of your female critics have responded to your message shows how right you are. Reality seems to give them a hissy fit or perhaps an attack of the vapors. Next year should be very interesting.

-- cody varian (cody@y2ksurvive.com), September 19, 1999.

Cody, How right you are! But then aren't women supposed to be more emotional than men?

-- Grill Sergeant (USAFRET@takinit.easy), September 19, 1999.

Grill,

Arguements about upper body strength, in regards to women in the military, are enfeebled by the fact that those who use that arguement always seem to proceed from the viewpoint that only women are capable of not being physically up to snuff.

If you have a position that requires brute strength, then have a physical endurance test, that you can justify based on the typical demands of the job. If you happen to be a strong woman, you get the job. If, on the other hand, you are a "muscularly challenged" male, you can't have the job. Period.

I see no reason why who gets to do what, should be based on what's between a person's legs.

I do understand the frustration that comes from dealing with "PC" types, but that's a separate issue. Take it up with the PCers, not with people who are just trying to expand their horizons.

As for everybody just accepting their place? My, my, my, so much for you being a "good " American who will "fight for the American way of life". I thought the whole idea was about freedom. Everyone just shutting up and accepting roles that someone else forced upon them, doesn't sound very free.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), September 19, 1999.

Grill Sergeant--- Your opinion is a reflection of your past experiences. The response/criticism of others who have never lived in the harsh military/war world is not surprising.

We are all equal or so we have been told so often that most people believe it. Emotionally soothing - What you say is not.

I can remember a unit morale buster in VN when the red cross women came around to pass out a few donuts to the enlisted men and then go after the officers all night.

Sex and Guns don't mix well. Women have no busy in a combat unit. If Y2k goes to a 10, I will just smile grimly as the world goes back to normal.

I agree with you and cody.

-- 19E40 (VietNam@67-68.com), September 19, 1999.

Here's to those who have a problem with BBQ man a.k.a. Grill Sergeant...WWAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- Lurk (Lurker@lurking.lurk), September 19, 1999.

Oh give me a break Grill, you can't wait to see what I post as a retort. Well take this thought with you, as you continue on having your nice day.

No I've never served in the U.S. Armed Forces, but I work for the U.S. Government and documentation is the name of the game, no matter where you're at.

As far as being a "real" woman who enjoys her femininity, and walks, talks, and speaks like a lady. Much like my beautiful wife, who is perfect in everyway. (sic) You're right I'm not a "lady", I'm a 44 year old seasoned professional woman, who has fought for everything she has, and has pride enough not to take anything she herself hasn't earned. In short, someone who believes in the "American way".

Since you brought up relationships, I've been happily married for 20 years. My husband is a tough and proud son of a bitch, who doesn't need me to act "girlie" to make him feel like a man, thank God!

Now when you get over your temper tantrum, you may again engage me in debate about feminism. Maybe next time you'll GI.

-- Mabel Dodge (cynical@me.net), September 19, 1999.

Hang in there Mabel, I was just waiting for Grill to insinuate that you were not a "real" woman who "does not enjoy her feminity." As for the point someone made about Y2K possibly turning us back into a primitive pre-industrial society with tasks and power divided only by gender, I say meet Ms. Remington 870. not too much upper body strength needed to pull the trigger which I will do in a heartbeat (as will my husband) to protect our family. Hope Ms. Grill doesn't chip a nail or something keeping her femininity intact if the wolf comes to the door.

-- (y2kfallback@yahoo.com), September 19, 1999.

ROTHLMAO!! Does she allow her husband to lift the lid? Just wondering? Must be time for her premerin, motrin, or whatever she is in dire need of.

-- Sir Laughsalot (Laughin@loud.com), September 19, 1999.

Femi-nazism is alive and well at cynical@me.net Sorry you are a sexually frustrated (trapped in a woman's body, wanna be a man) type. Maybe Dr. Love could help you losen up. I wonder what your wardrobe closet looks like, Professional Woman in the U.S. Government. I'd bet a case of my favorite brew you have more jeans than dresses. Am I right? I thought so. Take your "simple servant" job and go shuffle some papers tomorrow, O.K.?

-- Doctor Love (Luvemanleavem@yahoo.com), September 19, 1999.

Ah, now the "woman as hormonally challenged" card is thrown. What a lot of orignal thinkers we have contributing their valuable insight and experience to the subject of Y2K preparation! Poor little old me was just at a loss without these big brave men.

Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition girls, looks like we're going to need it. I fear some of these would be he-men are secretly hoping for TEOTWAKI so they can "re-assert their own biological imperative"(or is that impair-ative). They think they are Mel Gibson or worse who will be able to enslave lots of pretty cowering feminine girls in need of their protection. Either way, thanks for the heads up Grill et.al. gonna stock up on some more ammo. Goodbye now.

-- (y2kfallback@yahoo.com), September 19, 1999.

Hey, people tell me all the time I look just like Mel Gibson. THANKS, THANKS-A-LOT!

-- Mel (Mel@Gibson.hollywood), September 19, 1999.

LOL Dr. Love, sex is great, but I need money to pay the bills. If it comes down to your love making or a nice big fat raise in my paycheck and a promotion....guess which I'm gonna take! Call me a feminazi but, you can bet my favorite brew (diet coke) that I'll go for the bucks.

-- Mabel Dodge (cynical@me.net), September 19, 1999.

Grill & Mara: I had a good military career(Marines & AF) and came into contact with women both officers and NCO's. I agree with Grill on not letting the ladies into DIRECT combat positions. However, because there are so many semi-males in the US today, the military has no option but to recruit the ladies. After all, in WWII the ladies were holding down positions in the military and civilian world that freed up manpower for combat positions. I retired in the late '70's. I had the privilege of flying my last active duty flight on a C-5 that had a very petite blond handling the yoke. My operations center I was in charge of had two Sergeants(both female) that scored the highest marks in the NCO Academy at Norton AFB up to that time. These two young ladies made their promotions below the zone because of their abilities not their gender. Just as there are some military men I have known that I would not like to be near me in a combat situation, there are women that can't handle the stress. I do agree with Israelies on combat positions. Rosy the riviter was not a figment of someone's imagination!

-- Neil G.Lewis (pnglewis1@yahoo.com), September 19, 1999.

Mien Got! What kind of a stupid slew of nonsense is this? Has it ever occured to any of you that the people who are most likely to survive this shift of ideals, morals, physical wealth, spiritual compass are the ones who push the paradigm's edges, who think outside the mold. Society ain't gonna go back to the way it was no matter how much people try to force it. We're entering totally new ground in which many of you (Grill, Mabel fer instance) will become obsolete. Sorta like Neanderthal man. An interesting historical footnote but a evolutionary dead end nonetheless. Unless you're under thirty you aren't going to have much to do with rebuilding society (if a disaster of sufficient magnitude happens). Cause by the time everything settles down enough your generation'll be over sixty and who wants to listen to a bunch of old farts who only know how to correlate, alphabetize and file bits of bark and drive SUVs? Your generation is mentally flabby and complacent. I know, I've spoken to enough of you old infants.

I don't agree with Grill or Mabel. I guess my view point is shared by none. Oh well. Nothing new.

The freak

-- Typhonblue (typhonblue@hotmail.com), September 19, 1999.

Grill Baby,cool your jets. I faced off with a army that used women just as badly as the men,ie the peoples army of vietnam. I wasn't a flight line ammo jockey ,no offense intended! but acquired a large collection of pretty ribbons for a protracted service as a leader of counterinsurgent forces. No ,women might not be able to load jet ammo, But if history serves me correctly Wasn't molly Pitcher a cannon loader at Bunker Hill? The Ladies could serve beside me ANYTIME and with a Infantry, Airborne,Ranger, Jungle expert, Pathfinder, and Special Forces background I feel I've got a much better grasp of the elements of combat and performance than any flightliner.I'd take an infantry trained woman parachutist over a hairy chested, beerbellied flightline gofor anyday,Get the message sarge? Cpt Eddie,a lover of Joan D' Arc and All brave Women.

-- Ed (merek@aloha.net), September 19, 1999.

Typhonblue a lot of what you say is right. We have left a mess for you, I'm sorry, I truly am.

Just like the previous generation, we sacrificed the future for present gains.

The only thing I can say is, don't follow in our foot steps. It's a dangerous game, and no one ends up winning.

-- Mabel Dodge (cynical@me.net), September 19, 1999.

Getting back to the original statement and passing on the feminist comments, the question is would our commander-in-chief be so dumb as to declare martial law and try to close off the cities?

I guess if they try to just close them off and let them implode, we might have enough troops if we use the guard, police, all available govt agencies, and firefighters, etc. If it's a 10, we won't be able to feed everyone for long anyway. Too many mouths to feed. I forget the exact numbers but didn't the average farm feed 8 people at the turn of the century, and today it feeds 200? Something like that I think. Take away power, fuel, and fertizler for one year and how many could the average farm feed now?

With the way the Prez has handled things so far, spinning everything and not giving any reason to prepare, what other option is left when TSHTF? Stop the welfare gravy train and interrupt JIT inventory for a short time, and the sheeple will go nuts again. Will make the Rodney King riots look like a pre-game warm-up.

If nothing else, martial law would be a good time to try to erase the 2nd Amendment. Round up the guns and everyone will be safer. We are in deep do-do if they try this, it will be a sad day for this country indeed. Guns for food? Wouldn't put it past them. Guess we'll have to watch for discreet troop withdrawals. If they start bringing more of our boys and girls home over the next month or two, could be a sign.

-- Bill (bill@tinfoil.com), September 19, 1999.

Have I somehow been transformed back into early 1972?

Have I mentioned the fact that I was one of the first four women to be "allowed" into "mens" jobs in the military, back in 1972?

Do I have anything to say about what is being said in this thread?

*ROFLMAO*

No

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), September 19, 1999.

What a mess! I stay off the net for a couple days and look what I find. Grill and Mabel shame on you both. Go to your rooms, time out for both of you. Some suggested reading for both of you..."The Total Woman" by Marbel Morgan. Then maybe both of you will GI.

-- Jennifer Townsend (Jennifer@aol.com), September 19, 1999.

The feminization of the U.S. Military is one of the best things to have happened to leviathan It will be realised as a blessing one day. We need to Encourage IT! As Wesley Pruden (Editor of the Washington Times) wrote a couple of years ago, "Can you imagine General Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia fighting today's feminizied, panty-waist U.S. Military?"

I shall borrow from General Nathan Bedford Forrest with only a little change, "Shot everything in U.N. Blue, and keep the skeer on!"

Deo Vindice,

BR

-- brother rat (rldabney@usa.net), September 19, 1999.

What a mess! I stay off the net for a couple days and look what I find. Grill and Mabel shame on you both. Go to your rooms, time out for both of you. Some suggested reading for both of you..."The Total Woman" by Marbel Morgan. Then maybe both of you will GI. -- Jennifer Townsend (Jennifer@aol.com), September 19, 1999.

Oh god...not that, anything but "The Total Woman" garbage...I've got an idea, let's just let the cockroaches take over the world...maybe they can do a better job.

-- Mabel Dodge (cynical@me.net), September 19, 1999.

Ok my nickels worth.

I am a combat vet. I spent my post high school vacation in SEA. I have "seen the elephant" and it is not pretty and I have no wish to see it again.

I have no problem with letting women do whatever they damn well please. I do have a problem with the things they will be expected to do in a front line, ass in the mud, combat unit. Your function is to kill the other guy. Not discuss it with him, not reason with him, but kill him before he kills you. Mentally it can be done by anyone, man or woman. But I can state from my perspective that it will rip a part of you away that you never, ever get back.

So we have here the continuing argument about physical strength, yes it is important, mental toughness, try carrying a poncho with your buddy's body in it, last but not least the "hind brain" protect the female programming we males seem to carry. It could get someone killed. I know some female fighter pilots who are awesome. I know some Army NCO's who are male whimps. Our military is there to protect this country from it's enemys. So yes, I want people who do it right and come back in one piece.

So I believe that women can do many things in the military but that "in the mud" frontline combat is not one of them. I further believe that if women want to compete with men then compete on the same field men compete on. I don't give a damn if you have cramps, get the plane re-armed,we have people dying up there, I don't give a damn if you have to go to the bathroom,piss your pants like the rest of us, get the ammo ready to drop to the line units, I don't give a damn that you think you are special, so was my friend who is in that silver casket.

Combat is not anything like the movies. Unless you have been there don't pretend you know, it could get someone killed because we're "trying to let everyone participate".

A Vet....

-- (owner@yahoo.com), September 19, 1999.

Jennifer: Do you like to mudwrestle?

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.com), September 19, 1999.

coprolith:

Men and boys often LIKE beating the crap out of each other and being cold and impersonal to each other; it wins them applause and affection. It gets them the babes. But if men treat women the same way they treat other men, women get stepped on, impregnated, raped, and hung out to dry...and that's the sad reality. Men often like to play rough, get smelly and dirty, break some bones, and talk about things in a not-so- nice way in the locker room. Men are in competition with one another to Be Number One by any means necessary. Is it no surprise that women who want to be treated "equally" often get treated "equally badly?" This barbed comment is in no way meant to "shift the blame" toward women. It's just that equality is not possible. I'm not talking about justifying male superiority and all that macho BS. I'm just scoffing about how possible it is make men and women equal in the same way that circles and squares can be made equal.

Yes, I know some "men" (if you can call them that) like to act that way. They get the "babes" who are impressed with such behavior, and they are welcome to them. As for me and other civilized men: if we have to defend ourselves or our families with our lives, we will. Otherwise, we will continue to act in a civilized manner. Thinking outclasses mindless violence as a survival tactic, both in "normal" times and in emergencies such as Y2K may bring.

-- Steve Heller (stheller@koyote.com), September 19, 1999.

Thyphonblue,

Owww Owwww Owwwwwwwww....Seems like only yesterday I was shouting out, "Don't trust anyone over thirty, and now here I am an old fart, dodging karma-kazes right and left.

You know, we really did believe we'd change the world, but then the eighties happened. Oooops. De're go de revolution.

Best of luck to you. I hope you do a better job of keeping focus, than we did.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), September 19, 1999.

Mabel...you still here??!?? In the words of Ferris Bueller... it's over...you can go home now....leave.

-- Sir Laughsalot (laughing@outloud.com), September 19, 1999.

What focus? I don't have a focus I just rant. I was actually being facetious. I find the female/male dichotomy distastefull. Most men and women I've met do not embody the "perfect gender" they are just lost souls on a contiuum just like the rest of us. It's one of my gripes about the current "ideal" of romantic love. How can you love a stereotype, not a person? Some of the weakest men I know are the most "macho", some of the most violent(mentally, where it really counts) women I know are the most "feminine." Sigh. Seems like some people understand feminine or masculine but not human.

I don't want to start a revolution. Revolution is just part of the same old same old. It seems the whole problem is with the idea of revolution itself. Perhaps if every mind was a revolution...

The Freak Speaks

-- Typhonblue (typhonblue@hotmail.com), September 19, 1999.

I worked for a couple years as a Paramedic, both Clinical and Street. when i worked with a female partner (Private ambulances run2 person crews) who "Can't lift [snort, nudge wink] " I NEVER had a problem with them in getting our 60 pound cot and 250 pound patient up into the squad (2-person cots into modular squads).

the reason I don't work the streets anymore is simple. I am UNABLE to back my way up stairs with the aformentioned 60# cot and 250+# patient. My legs DO NOT DO THIS. Probably has something to do with the perthis (congenital hip) I was treated for at 16 months old. I am really funny to watch, as I'll back up to the first steep, my foot goes up and that is all!! Unless my partner can push at JUST the RIGHT MOMENT, we're stuck.

EVERY BODY GOTS some limits. JUST GOTS TO KNOW YOURS!!

Chuck

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), September 19, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr near Monterey, California

Grill Sergeant said: Does anyone that reads these posts honestly believe that our current administration could have a credible ability to impose martial law on 120 major cities in the U.S.A.? ...No offense to the females, but over the past 20 years I witnessed the "feminization" of the U.S. military with increased quotas of women, and women being put in formerly "males only" career fields. ...In one of my old career fields we loaded 500 lb, to 2000 lb bombs on tactical aircraft...

Surely you're not suggesting that the job of enforcing martial law would require the National Guard to use bombs against our own citizens. On the contrary, it may be that the strongest skill that will be needed by the uniformed leaders in our neighborhoods will be the ability to quickly size up a social situation and elicit co-operation through non-confrontational public relations. Stereotypically, women have these skills in abundance.

Nurses routinely lift 200 pound soldiers when making hospital beds. Nobody ever questions whether they're lifting too much until they seek to move to a position with potential for upward mobility, or wish to double their pay by getting a construction job. Your agenda becomes clear when you say Women shouldn't be doing "man" work. Let them do the clerical, food service, office work, etc. I suppose you also think leadership and command are "man" work.

I know of no mother who would be more eager to see her son come home in a bag than her daughter. Women often get blamed for men's inadequacies. If a man is more likely to sacrifice the mission in the presence of a woman, then it is he who needs to be retrained, redeployed, demoted, or discharged if necessary.

Now, it sounds like you're saying that if the world self-destructs and becomes a playground for roving hoards of motorcycle monsters, all because the military couldn't keep a lid on things, women will be ultimately to blame for this, too?

Don't forget to pin the Y2K problem itself on Grace Hopper.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), September 20, 1999.

Don't know if I'm getting redundant here but I wish there were more emphasis on social studies. One only has to read accounts of the French,Dutch,Dane,Norse Resistance to the nazi invasion to understand the major role played by WOMEN.From ambush to train interdiction,close in knife work to combat operations,Women played a vital part in the resistance.(this in the days before the rise of a serious womens movement.)So can the retoric, We,Women and Men will rise equally to the demands of combat when our lives,families or way of life is threatened!History has proved this to be true. Warrior is not a defination of sex, Warrior is one who acts irrregardless of personal risk to further the cause or mission!God forbid that ANYONE should have to experience combats' terrors but if one should it's best remember this adage--there are two kinds ,the quick and the dead.

-- Ed (merek@aloha.net), September 20, 1999.

Grill, of course you are right about females in the military. We can thank our gutless congress for it's inability to say no to the feminazis at some point, even when they demand something as ludicrous as mixing the sexes in combat roles.

One of the most insidious effects of females in a combat unit is on the morale of married men in the unit and particularly on their spouses who realize that their husbans are exposed at close quarters to females on extended tours of duty.

The pregnancy rate of female sailors (EGAD, what a phrase) is around 19% and climbing. Standards have been lowered in every military area where women serve with men including the service academies which were integrated in 1976. There is no job in combat roles which men don't do better than women outside of the odd exeption. Using the military for social experimantation is not just reckless it is criminal. Of course that fits nicely with the Clinton administration. Our military is being intentionally demoralized and enervated by a president who hates it.

Give me an island of 200 acres. Put a platoon of female "marines" on one end and a platoon of real jarheads on the other. Objective: kill or capture opposing force and take over island weapons equal. My money's on the guys. Do I hear any PC money on the split-tails?

-- doktorbob (downsouth@dixie.com), September 20, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr near Monterey, California

doctorbob said: Give me an island of 200 acres. Put a platoon of female "marines" on one end and a platoon of real jarheads on the other. Objective: kill or capture opposing force and take over island weapons equal. My money's on the guys...

Do you think that the objective of the military, on a larger scale next year, will be to kill or capture everybody in the world, or just North America, or maybe a smaller island like Manhattan? Wouldn't it be better to elicit co-operation from teams, under challenging circumstances requiring long term endurance, like severe cold? Think Alaska, where men are men and women win the Iditarod.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), September 28, 1999.

Lets see...

Jerking Forum chains... "Grill Sergeant..." et. al.?

On this thread alone...

Grill Sergeant (USAFRET@takinit.easy) = John Waynski (555@hut234.mil) = Sir Laughsalot (Manamong@man.com) = Joseph (taxpayer@irs.com) = Doctor Love (Luvemanleavem@yahoo.com) = Mel (Mel@Gibson.hollywood) = Jennifer Townsend (Jennifer@aol.com)

Tusk, tusk. Get the feeling you REALLY dont like women! (Except as teachers, nurses or housewives?) Your loss.

Give me brains (and compassion) over brawn and game-players any day. And know each individuals strengths and weaknesses, when brute strength is required, and when it is not, then focus on each persons unique strengths... to get a cooperative job done.

Diane

(BTW, during WWII, after Pearl Harbor, my mother was a Rosey the Riveter working in an aircraft manufacturing facility, then, on her own limited dime, worked afterhours to qualify for her pilots license and then to qualify to join the Air Force WASPs as one of the few women ferry pilots. Doubt the combat-ready men took offense. They appreciated all the help they could get during a national crisis situation, that impacted everyone in the country! Amelia inspired many women of her day. And the war was won with everyone pulling their load).

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), September 28, 1999.

I was 11-B for four hellish years.If women(or womynn)were alowed in the infantry they'd most likely spend their four years thinking,like I did,that they where stubborn,proud,arrogant,fools for signing up for the biggest shit job in the army.I wish I'd signed up for supply,I'd have made more friends,enjoyed myself more,and slept better.Take O.C.S.in any M.O.S.,you'll get 11-B training at Benning and almost certianly realize that you're bitching about not being able to do something that you would never want to do.Being a grunt means being tired and miserable and surrounded by people who have met thier full potential by being a grunt.My stupid brain dead 18 year old hormones promted me to join infantry in the hopes of testing my limits,little did I know that after testing my limits during the 16 weeks of o.s.u.t. and then I would spend four years with monosylabic jar heads who only looked foward to the day that they could get live fire trigger time.Some grunts are true warriors who have found thier niche(ranger,path finder,etc)but the average grunt is just a beer swilling moron,nobody you want to hang with,Mabel.

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), September 30, 1999.

Dancr said: "Do you think that the objective of the military, on a larger scale next year, will be to kill or capture everybody in the world, or just North America, or maybe a smaller island like Manhattan? Wouldn't it be better to elicit co-operation from teams, under challenging circumstances requiring long term endurance, like severe cold? Think Alaska, where men are men and women win the Iditarod."

Yes, Dancr!!! I sure like the way you think. I wonder, however, if in regard to no-neck/small-brain types, you know the old saying about "teaching pigs to sing?" Goes something like this:

Never try to teach a pig (add your own animal here,...aardvark, dodo, earthworm, etc.), to sing. It wastes your time, and annoys the pig!

--watching the death throes of the declining paradigm,...

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), September 30, 1999.

Diane,

LOL!!!! Mabes had already figured out that Grill, Laughsalot and Dr.Love were the same person. She'll be quite amused to find out that "the game" was even bigger than she thought.

Zoobie,

It's not about the particular job, but about whether you have the choice to take or reject the job. I have no desire to be a garbage collector, yet if someone were to say "44 year old white guys with beards are not qualified to be "'sanitation engineers'", I'd be pretty miffed, on general principle.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), October 04, 1999.

Well, I probably should stay out of this, but anyway.. All I know is my husband can lift, haul, rake, mow, paint etc with a lot more power and endurance than I can. It used to bother me to ask his help with something physical, but now I realize that he likes to help. Of course there are plenty of women that can kick my ass too. I'm not pretending to represent every woman.

On the other hand, allowing men to raise children is usually unwise. Their attitude toward punishment is that it should be unrelenting. Works in a war situation, but not in a home.

As for men not being emotional, witness their behaviour at sporting events.

-- Amy Leone (leoneamy@aol.com), October 04, 1999.

Just got this e-mail {'scuse the {lack of} formatting & PC-ness}

LESSONS: Dogs, Men, & Women

> >> HOW DOGS AND MEN ARE THE SAME: > >> > >> Both take up too much space on the bed. > >> > >> Both have irrational fears about vacuum cleaning. > >> > >> Both mark their territory. > >> > >> Neither tells you what's bothering them. > >> > >> The smaller ones tend to be more nervous. > >> > >> Neither does any dishes. > >> > >> Both fart shamelessly. > >> > >> Neither of them notice when you get your hair cut. > >> > >> Both like dominance games. > >> > >> Both are suspicious of the postman. > >> > >> Neither understands what you see in cats. > >> > >> > >> HOW DOGS ARE BETTER THAN MEN > >> > >> Dogs do not have problems expressing affection in public. > >> > >> Dogs miss you when you're gone. > >> > >> Dogs feel guilty when they've done something wrong. > >> > >> Dogs admit when they're jealous. > >> > >> Dogs are very direct about wanting to go out. > >> > >> Dogs do not play games with you- - except fetch (and they > >> never laugh At how you throw.) > >> > >> You can train a dog. > >> > >> Dogs are easy to buy for. > >> > >> The worst social disease you can get from dogs is fleas. > >> (OK, the really worst disease you can get from them is rabies, > >> but there's a vaccine for it and you can kill the one that gives it to > >> you). > >> > >> Dogs understand what "no" means. > >> > >> Dogs mean it when they kiss you. > >> > >> > >> THE TOP TEN REASONS WHY A DOG IS BETTER THAN A WOMAN > >> > >> A dog's parents will never visit you. > >> > >> A dog loves you when you leave your clothes on the floor. > >> > >> A dog limits its time in the bathroom to a quick drink. > >> > >> A dog never expects you to telephone. > >> > >> A dog will not get mad at you if you forget its birthday. > >> > >> A dog does not care about the previous dogs in your life. > >> > >> A dog does not get mad at you if you pet another dog. > >> > >> A dog never expects flowers on Valentine's Day. > >> > >> The later you are, the happier a dog is to see you. > >> > >> A dog does not shop. > >> > >> LIFE LESSONS LEARNED FROM A DOG > >> > >> 1. If you stare at someone long enough, eventually you'll get what > >> you want. > >> > >> 2. Don't go out without ID. > >> > >> 3. Be direct with people; let them know exactly how you feel by > >> piddling on their shoes. > >> > >> 4. Be aware of when to hold your tongue, and when to use it. > >> > >> 5. Leave room in your schedule for a good nap. > >> > >> 6. Always give people a friendly greeting. A cold nose in the > >> crotch is effective. > >> > >> 7. When you do something wrong, always take responsibility (as soon > >> as you're dragged out from under the bed). > >> > >> 8. If it's not wet and sloppy, it's not a real kiss. >>

-- flora (***@__._), October 04, 1999.

From Elaine Donnelly, president of the "Center for Military Readiness":

'GI Jane' | Hollywood's fanciful tale perpetuates feminist myths

...experts told [the 1992 Presidential Commission on the Assignment of Women in the Armed Forces] that the entire nation would have to be desensitized to accept the reality of full-scale combat violence against women...

What price victory?

-- Mac (sneak@lurk.hid), October 04, 1999.

What manner of country sends their women to do their fighting for them?

-- Patrick (pmchenry@gradall.com), October 05, 1999.