since the liturgical changes mandated by paul vii (or vi) until now, were these changes necessary to complete an agreement between the lutheran church and the catholic church in-as-much as they are preparing to sign an agreement know as "the joint declaration of justification" on october 31, 1999?

-- juan (declined@aol.com), September 20, 1999

Answers

Juan, Knowing of the Lutheran church, I can tell you that this joint agreement is not universally accepted in all Lutheran denominations. the only one to go along with it is the ELCA. They will get no further with any communion because they ordain women. Luther would never accept such an agreement either because it does not contain the word ALONE after faith which he added to change the course of Protestantism.

-- Pamela (Rosylace@aol.com), September 23, 1999.

The liturgical changes of Paul VI have nothing to do with agreements with the Lutherans. The joint statement on justification is the result of years of theological discussion. If I may be blunt, the Lutherans gave much more than they received; as was pointed out above, the agreements would not be acceptable to Luther and are not acceptable to several Lutheran synods. I'm sure Steve Jackson would have more to say about this if he was lurking around here. Oh Steve.....

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), September 23, 1999.

Ssssurely I hope an open invitation is not forwarded to those who cause strife on the site? Some call it " action " while I term it a nest of nonsense. Perhaps Br. Rich could enlighten us on this issue as it is still in contention currently with further meetings taking place.

We are I trust an ecumunical Church offering and not offending those of other churches.

-- jean bouchardRC (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), September 23, 1999.

chronology of events: 1969 pope paul vi bans tridentine mass and imposes the novus ordo. cardinals Ottaviani and Bacci issue critical study on the novus ordo. also a group of un-named theologians. 1970ish, lecture by archbishop marcel lefebvre compares novus ordo to luther mass. 1988 archbishop lefebvre excommunicated not for his views but for ordaining bishops of his own ilk. 1988 pope john paul ii isues "eccesia dei" motu propio the indult mass.(latin) 1999, lutheran joint declaration to be signed. incidentally it is reported that no less than six protestant ministers worked on the novus ordo. to use an old cliche', if it looks like a duck, talks like a duck and walks like a duck. conclusion......its...a...duck! pax domini.....juan

-- juan (declined@aol.com), September 24, 1999.

jean , I did not understand your last sentence at all. Comments from anyone???

-- Pamela (Rosylace@aol.com), September 24, 1999.

Pam - Earlier in the year several individuals became combatants on the site Steve was one of. I simply hope this does not take place again. I like to feel those of us who confident in our faith are waiting with open arms to offer peace and to console not irritate.

Some outsiders who had been asked to look into the site thought it was evil.

-- jean (John) Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), September 24, 1999.

pope john paul ii writes in his essay "veritatia spledoris" that we must seek truth and "truth will set you free." this is supposedly a site based on catholicism. it beliefs, traditions, liturgies, etc. one thing this thing called the web has done is to bring people together in thought amongst other things. for more than thirty years we have been bottled up and part of the generation supposedly written off. sorry, we have not all died yet. this is not a game or a q&a session to determine how well one knows the bible all of the time. there are many serious liturgical questions screaming for answers. this is not a fight....this is not an exercise in testing ones knowledge. this is a legitimate quest for answers here-to-for not rendered. as it is seen by many, the soul of the church is at stake. pax domini......juan

-- juan (declined@aol.com), September 25, 1999.

how come? when issues regarding the taking of a position and/or defending a position a posed, .......nothing!!!

-- juan (declined@aol.com), October 02, 1999.