At the request of King of Spain, I'm continuing this topic here. The original post is an off-topic discussion of some of the new technologies which may lead toward a fulfillment of Revelation 13 - e.g. laser tattooing and/or biochip implantation.

I'll address a few of the posts here:

On Bill Gates being the Antichrist because his name adds to 666 -- Sorry, I disagree. The ASCII code for "III" would not be 1+1+1. Rather it would be 74+74+74. They said similar things about Ronald Wilson Reagan (6 letters in each name). Hmm, I wonder what Warren Beatty's middle name is (joking). The important thing is that the mark is not a birthmark as depicted in the movie "The Omen" - although Gorbachev does have a very prominent forehead and 2 birthmarks - at least two components of which resemble the [arabic] number 6.

INVAR notes that the mark is symbolic and I agree to an extent. However, if it is only symbolic, then why the dire warning in the context of the rise of the two endtime beasts? Futhermore, since when does receiving the (symbolic only) mark prevent the markbearer from buying and selling? Clearly, there is a physical side to this. Would only acid-inspired metalheads get such a mark (tattoo or implant)? No, not if there are hungry children in the household and financial transactions can only be made via such a system. The grocers and the bankers rule! (Not to mention Child Protective Services). Besides, the mark can be invisible is so desired. But, ulimately both versions of the mark (physical and symbolic) are one in the same in that they represent the false love of mammon.

Regarding the use of biometrics such as fingerprints, etc. These indeed play a role in the systems I've read about. If you'll recall in one of Stallone's movies, he plucks out someone's eye to parade in front of an iris scanner. How would you like your hand to be cut off so someone could access your fingerprints? These are serious topics which have been discussed at length. One solution is to encode a person's biometric data within the mark itself. The most likely scenario, from what I gather, is to type DNA from the person's blood. In other words, each implanted chip iself does the necessary scanning of biometric data, thus no need for a massive array of point-of-sale iris scanners, etc.

Now, none of this is possible if Y2K throws a sufficient monkeywrench into the works, destroying all telecommunications. On the other hand, if just one viable telecommuncations system emerges (ham radio is dubious for data transfer - but I suggest we all at least look into ham) such as the Iridium system, a marking system would be almost tantamount to the restoration of the world's financial systems. I highly suggest the four *.ram format recordings I hyperlinked about 60% into the original discussion. It is a very thorough discussion of virtually everything related to this topic.

-- Zach Anderson (z@figure.8m.com), October 06, 1999

Answers

I wish it weren't Stan Johnson and the profit club doing the Iridium information. This guy is a dirtbag and money grubber to boot. Still, ignore the nasal voice and the stupidity Stan expresses and you might find something useful.

-- Ray (shusters@montanasky.net), October 06, 1999.

Invar,

Thank-you for your input on this topic, But you assumed a few things that I did not say. 1. Rapture (the word is not in the bible you are right.) but the word Bible is not in the Bible yet it exists. But the event the rapture is associated with is (a chatching up)1 Corinthians 15:50-55,1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. Please note those taken were just the ones sleeping (dead) who loved the lord, But those who were still alive. 2. I did not say we would be taken out before the 7 years of tribulation started that would be the pretrib view. What I hold to be in line with GOD'S word is pre-wrath, being raptured before GOD'S wrath starts which if you would reread my above post, you will see that is after the 6th seal was opened but before GOD'S seal (the 7th seal). If not raptured saints in Revelation 7:9-17 (The great multitude of ALL nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues) Than who? I say when John saw this multitude of saints from all walks of life, He did not know it was the same church body he was tring to build in his day that had grown in size. Pre-wrath rapture would have to occur prior to GOD'S wrath ( the opening of the 7th seal). So the timeline for pre-wrath rapture would have to be around the middle of the last 31/2 years prior to GOD'S wrath. I am not setting dates here, But doing what we are commanded to do, Knowing when it is near, right at the door. Matthew 24:33-34 3. As far as the mark of the beast goes I hold to a physical mark, implant chip or something tied to 666 that will be clear to all who take it on their right hand or forehead. Revelation 13:15-18 It will not be due to an accident that people accept the mark, they will chose it. Don't take the mark (Revelation 14:8-12)

Must end on a good note, John 3:16

In Christ

-- (Rwells1069@aol.com), October 06, 1999.

Wanted to say in above post (Those taken were NOT just those who were sleeping.)

thanks

-- (Rwells1069@aol.com), October 06, 1999.

What I was actually asking about, since this seemed to be the right crowd to ask, was about this book I recently stumbled across that was published in 1974. It's entitled "The Vision", by David Wilkerson, who was/is (I have no idea if the dude is still alive) a Penticostal Christian minister. He apparently got his big splash back in the late 1950s by suddenly upping from his rural Pennsylvania town to New York City, and then working with street gangs to help them become Christians and live righteous lives and stuff. There was a book written about it, followed by movie, both called "The Cross and the Switchblade". (These days it would be called "The Cross and the Uzi", I guess.)

Anyway, this little (143 pages) book called "The Vision" (supposed to be Wilkerson's vision that he received in the Summer of 1973), published a quarter of a century ago, just about knocked my socks off, as it describes a future world that seems to me pretty damned close to what we have, and are about to enter with Y2K.

The first chapter in the book, "Economic Confusion", seems in many ways to describe the Y2K scenario that most of us see coming -- a depression or near depression, with mucho bankruptcies of businesses, especially small ones; he urges preparation such as getting out of debt, and forsees a sudden "rush to the country" as people leave the cities to get away from the problems that occur in the cities. His chapter "Drastic Weather Changes and Earthquakes" sure seems to be on target, too. The other chapters seem, at least to me, to be pretty accurate with changes that have occurred in the last 25 years.

Anyway, there is also lots of stuff on Revelation, mark of the beast, etc., etc., and I was just curious if anyone knows anything about "The Vision" book. Thank you!

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 06, 1999.

Dear Brothers and Sisters:

The words of the bible is true. To one and all sinners. What is said in prophecy in the past and the Book of Revelations has and will come to pass. Prophecy will not fail.

Most preachers of today have not spent any time with god to know the truth. Many are misled and doomed, because most all are not interested in the real truth.They wait, and wait for the truth. Many do not ever receive it. Man will save everything, But his soul Everyone be honest. What do you think the four horses of the book of Revelations mean. Not one in a hundred thousand can know the answer without God showing it to them as they truly seek to know.

I have studied The Book Of Revelations for fifty years, Begging God to give me understanding. The prophecies have not and will not fail. The book of Daniel is the key to understanding.

I will debate anyone that truly seeks the truth of prophecy word by word, and line by line, In the Name Above All Names, Jesus Christ.

I really do weep over some of the things that are said over these threads.

Lon

-- Lon (lon1937@aol.com), October 06, 1999.

Please don't pass judgement on Stan Johnson of the Prophecy Club.He is one of the few who are getting out the message via speakers and meetings. I don't agree 100% with every speaker but we all are to use discernment and take the nuggets and leave the rest. King of Spain-you are a funny guy and no, I don't mud-wrestle. Yes David Wilkerson is still around. He is in New York and pastors the Times Square Church. He wrote two books in 98. AMERICA'S LAST CALL(On the brink of a financial holocaust) and GOD'S PLAN TO PROTECT HIS PEOPLE IN THE COMING DEPRESSION. He has all the predictions like before-stock market crash etc. I was disappointed when he stated in his book that "a future Antichrist is of no concern to me, nor should it be to any of God's people. I have no doubt that when the man of sin comes to power, every overcoming believer will already be with Jesus." He believes that the overcoming Church of Jesus Christ will be with the Lord when this marking takes place. I am an overcoming believer and I disagree with him-I feel that we will be here when the Antichrist steps up and we will have to chose or refuse the mark. He also thinks it is unbecoming of Christians to be combative over whether believers will be taken before, during or after the tribulation. I believe it is an issue because many will be diappointed when they realize there is no secret catching away of the "church" and I hope they won't become angry with God. People need to know we must escape, survive and endure the tribulation until the end. David Wilkerson is an annointed man of God and he is absolutely correct that we must tune in to the Lord, learn to hear that still small voice and be spiritually ready for what we are about to go through in the near future. KOS-guess this was more of an answer than you bargained for?! I have his phone # if you want to order the book.

-- (I Believe (Repent@time is now.com)), October 06, 1999.

Today, I paid a visit to Scantech '99 in Chicago, a large annual trade show for the bar code and radio frequency identification industry. Aside from the usual assortment of bar code printers, scanners, smart cards and RF devices, I stumbled on what I had thought until recently was urban myth: the implantable bio-chip. For the scoffers and debunkers alike, this device is very much real and commercially available. The manufacturer, SOKYMAT Identification, is out of Switzerland.

Their brochure describes it as "a family of passive, contactless transponders that communicate with a reader via radio frequency. They are available as read only and read & write devices with different size memories depending on the IC used. The power needed by the transponder is supplied by an electromagnetic field induced by the reader into its internal coil."

The glass encased pellet is 2mm in diameter x 12 mm long and is cylinder shaped. Reading range is 80 mm. The company makes a BIG point of claiming these devices are bio-compatible. It is not hard at all to envision these being implanted under a person's skin. With the correct encryption, it would make personal identification fool-proof which will be necessary before a truly cashless society can be established.

KING OF SPAIN - David Wilkerson (sp?), pastor of the Times Square Church, is still alive and well. A web search on his church name will put you in touch with his organization.

By the way, the 6th letter of the Hebrew alphabet is W. So the "sign" of 666 that one must have to buy and sell goods could stand for www (as in WWW.com)

-- Hawthorne (99@00.com), October 06, 1999.

King of Spain

A sequel to THE VISION by Wilkerson was published in 1976 called RACING TOWARD JUDGMENT. You are correct in thinking he is led by the word of GOD.

-- (Rwells1069@aol.com), October 06, 1999.

The ID bio-chips are currently being implanted in pets (dogs and cats). The implant is extremely useful in identifying/locating lost pets after a major disaster, such as a hurricane. (Can't take your pet to a shelter...)

-- Mad Monk (madmonk@hawaiian.net), October 06, 1999.

Thanks, everyone, for the info on David Wilkerson, and also his '76 sequel. (I never meant to imply that he was led by God, just that he seemed to THINK that he was.)

I'll do some web surfing, now that I have some clues. I'm (obviously) mainly interested to see if he, as of late 1999, believes that what (thought) he saw back in 1973 resembles what he sees today. And if rampant computer failures as a result of Y2K would jive with his financial collapse predictions.

And I think that Revelations is really cool. Its where God kicks ass. I am really learning a lot in your discourses.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 06, 1999.

David Wilkerson's most recent newsletter mentioned he was considering writing a new book regarding the apostacy in the churches and was intending on including personal experiences of others.

I don't know if he will get this book out before the economy crashes, but he is dreading the day people will write to him saying they should have heeded his warnings and did not!

Judgment is coming to America; it will be swift, unexpected and disasterous. There will be uncontrollable panic for those who are not secure in faith.

Who is prepared to go through the fiery trials of the tribulation?

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), October 06, 1999.

To All,

Let me be the first to attempt to upset the apple cart (theologically speaking). Consider for a moment the possibility that the Great Tribulation has already passed us by in history. Consider as well the possibility that the anti-christ, the beast, Babylon the Great, the 7 seals, the 4 horsemen, etc. etc. etc. are historical figures. Consider the possibility that the rapture is reserved for the last second of recorded time on earth...just before the final judgement.

I would have never considered these possibilities up until about 6 months ago. But I came across a book by David Chilton, called "Days of Vengeance" that changed my entire theology. He contends that all but the very last of Revelation has already occured...during the Apostolic period of the 1st century with the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans as the final scene in the closing out of the Old Testament era.

His arguments against our modern day version of the rapture are persuasive. (Note: modern rapture theory was cooked up in the 1830's, and was never even considered by the early church fathers, or any of the reformers.)

It is ironic that our dear old friend, Dr. Gary North, has a website (Free Books I.C.E.) where a online version of this book is available. Please check it out...WARNING...it may scramble your theology a bit.

Bless God Who Reigns Forever!

-- TM (mercier7@pdnt.com), October 07, 1999.

Link to FreeBooks I.C.E.

-- TM (mercier7@pdnt.com), October 07, 1999.

Gary North's eschatology is quite far off in my opinion, although I applaud his Y2K work. One of the best refuters of North's theology is, ironically, Dave Hunt (the polly author of "Y2K: A reasoned Response to Mass Hysteria").

One problem with the North theology concerns the "abomination of desolation" spoken of by Daniel. Many people say that this prophecy has already been fulfilled long ago. They offer Antiochus Epiphanes as the fulfiller. Antiochus commited his abominable acts around 165 BC. However, Jesus, speaking in about 30 AD, referred to the Daniel prophecy as a yet future event: "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet..." (Matthew 24:15).

A note on Daniel. Some of his prohecies which were fulfilled BC were so detailed and accurate (e.g. the precise movement of troops in the wars between the Selucids and the Ptolemies) that many "scholars" contend that the prophecies were written "after the fact" as an historical account in a poetic style known as "apocalyptic". I for one will have to dismiss such teaching as hogwash because Jesus himself clearly stated in the above verse that Daniel was a prophet, not an historian.

Wilkerson is a man very much in tune with God, in my opinion. One of the reasons he does not seem to be shouting Y2K-specific warnings is that he is looking at the bigger picture. One of the things he is best noted for is his prediction of the October '87 crash. He informed his congregation the day before it happened and several members took a tour of Wall Street the next day and saw history unfold before their eyes. Grown men were crying in the streets that day, if you'll recall. He is now (in the recent books noted in the post above) warning of the imminent financial collapse of the United States.

I should note also that Wilkerson had a vision (c. 1990 if my memory serves me) concerning the burning of NYC. He said it lasted about 30 days and that the military would be called in because of rioting, etc.

-- Zach Anderson (z@figure.8m.com), October 07, 1999.

King of Spain,

If you are interested in dreams and visions in the context of Y2K, I suggest the aforementioned Prophecy Club. When I first heard of them, I mused "What's this? Some kind of 700 Club clone?" I was later surprised with the quality of their guest speakers. They screen them about as efficiently as possible in this day and age, in my opinion.

One of their speakers is Dr. Bill Deagle, a physician who has had several extremely detailed visions not only of future events, but also of present-day "classified" projects. Very interesting if not enlightening.

In their July- August '99 Newsletter you will find the following articles which may be of interest:

Neutron Fuse By Dr. Bill Deagle, vision received 2/4/99

The Future of Kosovo and Israel By Dr. Bill Deagle, vision received the week of 4/1/99

Kosovo to the New World Order By Dr. Bill Deagle, vision received 4/24/99

The Mark Will Modify Behavior By Dr. Bill Deagle, vision received 4/29/99

Prepare for Jacob's Trouble, Not Just Y2K By Dr. Bill Deagle, vision received 5/5/99

God's Protection: His Prophetic Warning By Dr. Bill Deagle, vision received 5/10/99

5 Visions By Dr. Bill Deagle:

• Russian Troops Invited/Mark of the Beast Begins
• Red, Blue, and Green Badges & When The Revolution Begins
• Illuminati Blood Oath Against America
• Judgment Against Indianapolis
• The Man In Linen With the Ax

Also, see this article by Deagle in the Jan-Feb '99 Newsletter.

Also, from the PC website, I gleaned the following description of the audio recording series I recommended in the original thread. Has anybody had a chance to hear them yet? If not, perhaps this will whet your appetite (or turn you off completely). It's not for babies:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Nowhere To Hide! Iridium Satellites

Michael Bunker left his job as a Digital Systems Specialist at a fortune 250 technology company to prepare the Body of Christ for the hardest times mankind will ever experience.

Iridium is a system of 66 low orbit satellites that cover every inch of the planet. Michael researched the Iridium satellite system from a different angle than Dr. Bill Deagle. His NEW information will change the way you look at Y2K, preparedness, and the future of this country. He says the Iridium satellite system will be used to totally track, enslave, and persecute all who boldly proclaim Jesus or resist the Mark of the Beast. It is now online and being systematically connected to the internet, every computer, all communications, and all governments on the globe!

It allows a tyrannical government or a despotic leader to track and oppress all people. It was deployed without complaint from Congress or the church. Our enemies now have the means to completely destroy America. Michael methodically lays out the puzzle pieces of world domination. It is no longer a question of will evil rule the world, but when.

Topics: The entire satellite system (Iridium, Teledesic, Globalstar, and others); who made and deployed it; who passed laws enabling the "Iridium" system to track individuals; and how the human bio-chip will be connected.

-- Zach Anderson (z@figure.8m.com), October 07, 1999.

Zach,

You say: Gary North's eschatology is quite far off in my opinion, although I applaud his Y2K work. One of the best refuters of North's theology is, ironically, Dave Hunt (the polly author of "Y2K: A reasoned Response to Mass Hysteria").

I don't necessarily agree with Dr. North's theology all the time either, but the point I was trying to make was that our modern day "love affair" with "end times prophecy" is flat out unscriptural. Check out this article:

The Apocalyptic Faith

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by Rev. Andrew Sandlin

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Some professed Christians exercise greater faith in impending doom than they do in an omnipotent Deity and the promises of Sacred Scripture. This inclination ranges across the theological spectrum from end-of-the-world-imminent-rapture dispensationalists to survivalist God-guns-'n'-gold remnant reconstructionists. Both have been blessed with the great faith that before things get bad, they must get very, very bad. Doomsday dispensationalists have great faith that imminent apostasy precedes the imminent rapture (they are not always certain about which imminence is truly imminent). Remnant reconstructionists, on the other hand, have great faith that godly social transformation is impossible unless preceded by great societal collapse. Societal collapse they consider a mechanism of divine judgment out of whose ruins the Promethean order of a reconstructed Christian culture will emerge, sculptured (of course) by the minute, faithful, remnant reconstructionists themselves. In addition, the divine judgment in the form of social collapse will provide undeniable, visible testimony to the inviolability of God's lawand, not coincidentally, validate many years of economic prognostications ordinarily gone seriously awry. (It is sometimes difficult to distinguish between the desire for divine justification and the desire for self-justification.)

Though the doomsday dispensationalists and the remnant reconstructionists are certain that the magical year 2000 is destined to initiate a massive world-wide apocalypse and consequent Christian boon, both believe the world must get much worse before it can get better. The doomsday dispensationalists believe that the rapture and seven-year tribulation period necessarily precede a great earthly millennium over which Jesus Christ will personally, physically rule, while the remnant reconstructionists hold that massive social collapse will pave the way for the godly remnant to reconstruct society on the ashes of the apocalypse.

Premillennial Apocalypticism

Both are wrong. The parables of the wheat and tares (Mt. 13:24-30), of the mustard seed (Mt. 13:31-32), and of the yeast and loaf (Mt. 13:33) refute both notions. The doomsday dispensationalists believe that twice Christians will be physically separated from the world before the final judgment: first, the Christians living at the rapture will be caught up with the Lord, and second, the deceased Christians at the beginning of the millennium will be resurrected; the living and deceased unregenerate will not be judged, they hold, until the final judgment at the close of the millennium. But the parable of the wheat and tares assures us that there will be no physical separation of the converted from the unconverted until the end of the harvest, the end of the world (Mt. 13:39). There will indeed be a rapture and resurrection for believers, but these will occur at the end of human history at the second Advent of Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 15:24-25). The Bible does teach that near the end of the millennium, Satan is loosed from his present incarceration and permitted to mount one final assault on Christ and his kingdom. His and his followers' rebellion will be short-lived, however, inasmuch as it will be squelched by God's judgment (Rev. 20:7-10).

Postmillennial Apocalypticism

The principal error of the remnant reconstructionists is their trademark assumption that godly social transformation is impossible apart from great societal collapse. History itself, and not only Sacred Scripture, refutes this notion. The erosion of the Roman Empire which created a vacuum filled by establishment Christianity was anything but a collapseit was a gradual atrophy of evil within the society of pagan Rome and correspondingly gradual distention of Christ's kingdom. In other words, it operated precisely as Christ's parables predicted it would. The same is true of the Reformation. The Renaissance, despite much of its intently anti-Christian bias, recovered a scholarly interest in the texts of antiquity and thereby created an atmosphere in which respect for the Sacred Scriptures as the word of God shorn from traditionary accretions could prevail (see Allister McGrath's The Intellectual Origins of the European Reformation [Grand Rapids, 1987], 32-43). The close of the fifteenth and the beginning of the sixteenth century was a time of great transition, but that transition was not generated by any massive social collapse. To the contrary, in many ways the Protestant Reformation as one of the great Christian revivals in history is more accurately identified as the final segment of the Middle Ages than of the initiation of modern times.

In fact, far from heralding a revived Christian civilization, widespread social collapse seems more often to proceed extensive social evils. Think, for instance, of the Turkish invasion of Europe and Byzantium, the French Revolution, and, in more recent times, the Russian Revolution and the Weimar Republic. Widespread social collapse is no precursor to the revival of Christian civilization. It is often the precursor of just the opposite.

None of this means, of course, that the world will soon be spared local and regional pestilences, famine, natural disasters, authoritarian regimes, and the like. Until the millennium blooms, we cannot expect global tranquillity. The absorbing accounts in Otto Friedrich's The End of the World (New York, 1986) rehearse particular historic epochs when for certain individuals and societies, the end of the world did seem imminent. The sack of Rome, the Roman Catholic Inquisition, the Anabaptist terror, the Black Plague, the Lisbon earthquake, the Russian Revolution, and the kingdom of Auschwitz all these seemed to herald the end of the world to the individuals subject to their horrors. Friedrich notes, however, that what seemed to be the end of the world was soon transformed into a return to life's routine and almost the omission of any memory of the tragic past (e. g., p. 64). A sign in the obstetrics wing of the hospital in which all five of my children were born stated the truth succinctly but profoundly: "Babies are proof of God's intention that life should go on." While, therefore, until the fullness of the millennium, we can expect local and regional tragedy, whether it be God's judgment, his testing his people's faith, or any other providential work, it is an aspect of his ultimately inscrutable will for his creation (the remnant reconstructionists are fond of referring to "predictable" sanctions in history--in much the same way that the "sanctions" suffered by Job were "predictable," according to his short- sighted "friends" [ Job. 11:6; 15:16 ; 20:4-5 , 24-29 ; 22:5 , 22- 23 ; 34:7-12 , 31-37 , cf. 42:7-9 ; 21:7-34 ]! Predictable blessing and judgment? Yes. Man's infallible reading of the timing and nature of the sanctions? Not quite. The lust for exhaustive knowledge of God's will is an apostate desire).

If the kingdom of God is to advance slowly and incrementally, almost imperceptibility, we should not expect the sort of massive social collapse that the doomsday dispensationalists and the remnant reconstructionists predict, and which conflict with the incremental leavening effect of the kingdom of God. A globalized version of the localized or regional social collapse which ordinarily produces ungodly civilization is simply incompatible with Christ's promises of the gradual, but relentless, advance of his kingdom in history (Gen. 9:11-17). We must never presume that the collapse of an ungodly civilization is an essential step in establishing Christian civilization. God no more needs to destroy ungodly civilization in order to maintain his advancing kingdom than he needs to destroy the ungodly individual in order to convert him. Make no mistake: God judges individuals, God judges families, God judges churches, God judges nations, and God judges civilizationsin time and history. But God's redemptive work outdistances his retributive work. Grace exceeds judgment (Rom. 5:20).

The apocalyptic faith places greater hope in retribution than in redemption, greater trust in judgment than in grace. But in the advancement of Christ's kingdom, God slays the wicked by his irresistible grace (Ps. 110:5-6; Rev. 19:11-21; cf. Rom. 6:2-11; 2 Cor. 5:14; Gal. 2:19; Col. 2:20; 2 Tim. 2:11). Our faith must be placed in Christ's irresistible kingdom, not in apocalypticism and the end of the world.

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[ Chalcedon Home Page ]

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Copyright ) 1998 The Chalcedon Foundation, all rights reserved. Last updated: 8/23/98 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

-- TM (mercier7@pdnt.com), October 07, 1999.

King, Dave Wilkerson is very heroic. He knows something very, very ominous is about to happen, but he refuses to leave his congregants and anyone who turns to his Times Square church in that time. He not only is a GI, but he has reputedly stockpiled preps for those needy persons as well. A great, very balanced guy who's done wonders with helping those Jesus touched the most tenderly...the outcasts and those who knew they were sinners. He's no flashy televangelist, but a solid rock.

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), October 07, 1999.

Wow, thanks for all the additional info on David Wilkerson.

The thing that I really LIKE is that I can take this little "The Vision" pocketbook, with its 1974 copyright and yellowed pages, and actually SEE stuff that he predicted seemingly coming to pass. (At least in my opinion.) No "symbolism" type stuff, with fire, horses, vials being opened, etc., etc. Just real down to earth type stuff you can sink your teeth into.

This adds an entire new dimension to it all, is what I am trying to say.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), October 07, 1999.

Interesting Points All. I'll throw in a few more.

Zach,

You and I are in agreement. There is a symbolic AND a physical manifestation of this mark. What I'm addressing is everyone's preoccupation with speculation of what the mark "is" instead of what the Bible ALREADY says it is. Is it biometric ID's?, your SS#?, cable TV? What folks are overlooking is that the mark is a representation of a "Beast" of a man-government-religious system that one must participate in willingly, in order to buy or sell.

I think that Patrick had identified the root of this mark quite succinctly in his post on the previous thread. The Devil has transformed himself into an angel of light, and has deceived many into thinking they are worshipping Light, when they are in-fact engaged in vain traditions. Satan has us all scrambling after nonsense.

Rwells,

The words "bible" and "rapture" are not found in scriptural text, yes. However, "Bible" simply comes from the Greek word "Biblios" meaning "book" or compilation of the "writings/letters". It is simply a pronoun.

"Rapture" on the other hand is a concept, a doctrine and an explanation found in 1 Cor. 15. Rapture even in its encompassment of the idea is not biblically accurate. What is referred to in context, is the first of the three biblical ressurections: 1) the resurrection of Firstfruits or saints of God at Messiah's coming, to be Kings and Priests and pillars in the Mountain of God. 2. The Ressurection to physical life of all who have lived AFTER the Millenial Rule of Christ. (The multitude that John saw before the throne, opening the books (bibles?) 3. The resurrection of the condemned to consumation in the Lake of Fire. This is also referred to as the "Second Death" of which has no power over the First Resurrection. There is no "Rapture" of the church from Tribulation as it is commonly understood. God outlines a Place of Safety He provides for His Church, but not a zap- Yer outta there "rapture". The Jews of that period and even today look forward to the Resurrection, not the rapture.

Your explanations of "Pre-Wrath" are confusing in light of scripture. Your chronology of Revelation is incorrect. God seals the 144,000 of each of the remnants of the twelve tribes, but nowhere does it indicate that they are then resurrected BEFORE God pours out His wrath. They are sealed for protection from wrath like the Ancient Hebrews were sealed from the Death Angel at the time of the Exodus. Were the Hebrews whisked out of Egypt BEFORE the plagues were poured out? No. They were protected from the Plagues, just as those god has sealed will be protected during the time of His Wrath. The dead in Christ, and those left alive that are "caught" up into the air to meet Jesus are not changed and resurrected UNTIL the Seventh Trumpet and the return of Christ takes place which is AFTER the wrath of God is poured-out on mankind, who still refuses to repent . They will not repent until the armies gathered together in the valley of Hinnom, and are consumed and destroyed by the Lamb.

I could go into serious study-detail here on the chronology of Revelation, but not tonight. perhaps another time.

I still hold that all who are speculating on bio ID's and physical maniifestations of the "mark", are missing the point. The Beast is a system of governance and worship. It is an ideology. Accepting the ideology, it's practice and benefits for personal wealth and security, is accepting the mark of the beast as much as physically being branded.

In a type, I view modern Democratic Liberalism as a Beast. A mark of acceptance of this "beast" is to abide in the nonsensical political- correctness, to excuse and demouguoge those who demand decency and truth in our society. While we haven't arrived at only DNC cardholders being allowed to conduct business, with all the lawsuits on tobacco, guns and junk food places, we find THEY must provide execution of all this PC garbage, or be litigated into obscurity. It's just a type to make the point.

Acceptance of the ideology in mind, spirit and action is what the biblical definition is currently shown to be. Whether it manifests itself into branding by biometrics or other "papers", is yet to be seen.

But knowing how Satan works, it will be nothing what the masses expected it to be.

TM,

I cannot agree with your speculation. Scripture defines the Tribulation as a time unlike the world has ever seen. If the tribulation occured in its fullness back in 70A.D., then what was all the unmitigated horror we experienced this century? It paled all the misery and tribulations of previous centuries. Jesus described the Tribulation as a time whereby "No flesh would be saved alive, except those days be shortened. And for the Elect's sake, those days WILL be shortened."

I don't recall the Roman seige of Jerusalem bringing the world to the brink of annihilation, requiring God to step in and save us.

Let the plain Word of God found in scripture change your theology, not the words of David Chilton or anyone else.

PROVE ALL THINGS, hold fast to that which is good.

-- INVAR (gundark@sw.net), October 07, 1999.

Something wicked this way comes!

-- K. Stevens (kstevens@ It's ALL going away in January.com), October 07, 1999.

Great comments, everyone!

King of Spain,

It's good haring you enjoy reading "The Vision". It's been a few years since I read it (good books I always tend to give away), but a friend of mine recently re-read it and like you, marvelled at how accurately 99% of it had been fulfilled. In 1974, many of the thing he said were considered far out and he was even criticized for the book. Now the fulfillments seem rather ho-hum to an indifferent world.

Visit you local Christian bookstore and thumb thru Wilkerson's 1993 book, "Set the Trumpet to thy Mouth". It's sort of an updated version. And of course, the two latest ones should be there also. [NOTE: Some "Christian" bookstores will not carry some of Wilkerson's books.]

TM,

Like the author you quote, I am neither dispensational nor reconstructionist. But then again, I am neither Calvinist nor Armenian and neither Catholic nor Protestant. Like you, I see way too much emphasis on "signs of the times", many of which may not even be forthcoming (e.g. the rebuiding of the Jewish temple has never been fully shown to me in scripture). Above all, we are to look for his coming, not just the signs of his coming. Nonetheless, the admonition of Jesus is to "Watch", so there must be some signs floating around. If the signs were fulfilled long ago, what am I to make of Jesus' promise that he would come quicky following these signs? See my article, Jesus Christ on the End of the World for a more thorough discussion.

On the Rapture theories: No, it wasn't invented in 1830 by a girl [Margaret McDonald] who had a bad dream. As hardcore Rapturists will contend, it's been right there in the Bible for almost 2000 years. No matter how you slice it or dice it, a no-rapture theology cannot answer the question: Who are the flesh and blood people (typically called the "tribulation saints") who populate the millennium? There must be some period of time, be it 7 years or one minute, which separates two disinct events: the catching up of those who are alive and remain who receive glorified bodies vs. the beginning of the day of the Lord wherby those who survive enter the millennium without glorified bodies (i.e. they will be able to reproduce). In analogy, the antitype of this time period would be the 40 days of the flood. All who drowned in the flood did not necessarily go to hell, in other words.

Now, as to how long that time period is, I can find no clear clue in the Bible. Therefore, I personally must resort to the time-honored wisdom of preparing for the worst while hoping for the best. And, the context here definitely involves spiritual preparation.

I really don't want to get into a religious discussion, but if you insist, perhaps we should take it to email.

INVAR,

Yes, I think we are in basic agreement. I think you are saying (and if not, this is what I would like to clarify) is that simply refusing the mark will not save you spiritually, but if you ever take the mark then your spiritual discernment at that point will be so far gone that your soul will be beyond prayer.

I know a lot of people who say "No way are they gonna put that thing in me or on me", but they also curse God quite frequently.

-- Zach Anderson (z@figure.8m.com), October 07, 1999.

Those who curse God aloud reveal to perceptive hearers the corruption in their dark hearts.

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), October 07, 1999.

I guess this posting was all pre-Y2K and I may be posting to Internet forum "ghosts", so to speak. However, in skimming through all of your posts I must say that most of you are allowing yourselves to be thoroughly deceived, as was the first woman. I truly believe you are all delving into the deep things of the original "resistors/slanderers" and truly believe in inspired things of "them".

Albeit, one of you here is quite enlightened, the general mindset is that you don't understand:  WHO the beast is,  The image of it,  The meaning of the ancient Greek "XES", or the Apostle John's deliberately cryptic reference to the number of the beast 666 (pronounced in English: six hundred and sixty-six),  You also do not understand what God's purpose is for mankind if you believe in a generalized "rapture" versus a selected one that refers to a specific number also enumerated by John at Patmos.

1) John's wild beast vision refers to ALL of mankind’s world governments, including ancient Rome and now all modern-day manmade governments, including America.

2) The "image of the wild beast" is obviously an earthly manmade organization that historically unsuccessfully tries to unite all world governments or nations – “do the math”, so to speak! That can only be one worldwide organization today!

3) The beast’s number refers NOT to a “person” but to the imperfection of mankind emphasized three times! Remember the battle between David and the genetic-freak giant from Gath named Goliath who was a polydactyl? He had 6 toes and 6 fingers? The number six (6) means imperfect mankind. The number three (3) is God's method of exclamation point!!!

4) There are MANY antichrists not just one – see 1 John 2:18(b)! Can you think of any religious or governmental organizations that has proven false to its so-called Christ-like or godly roots or origins? "Anti" means against... Remember what Christ said about anyone who would harm a child? (Clue? Matt 18:6…)

5) Regarding John’s writing about the wild beast: John was a house- arrest prisoner of the Romans on the penal island of Patmos. They probably proofread everything he wrote. Maybe even destroyed anything they thought was subversive since it was going out to the world. So he was trying to cryptically refer to earthly manmade "governmental authorities" who then sets up a mandatory slave head/hand marking system which, incidentally, was common amongst ancient Israelites. Therefore within John’s sphere of understanding on slave marking. It would also be connected to a future Catch-22-type system of marketing/buying/worship/allegiance, which would make it mandatory to have this “figurative” mark just to do any kind of business in that socio-economic political system. Including going to church or school. The “mark” doesn’t have to be a physical manifestation but could be a simple act of patriotic allegiance to an emblem of that governmental system.

The idea that the mark is literal and not symbolic is just counter- intuitive. IBM chips, invisible bar codes, Iridium satellites, and the patent thing referred to, etc. is all just the "wishful thinking" of misguided biblical readers "who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel" of inaccurate knowledge. This is NOT how it’s going to go down folks!

How is it that everyone has already missed a MAJOR figurative (OK maybe arguably literal) act of religious/political/governmental inspired creature/idol worship? One involving a form of “slavery- marking” to a manmade governmental system which, coincidentally, also involves the act of one's “right hand” and or the Roman- inspired “right hand” to the “forehead”, depending on your government/military affiliation? This act has been enforced in America for decades now, either through legislative indoctrination or severe peer-pressure. It is now TODAY a major Supreme Court issue soon to be enforced on ALL Americans under the guise of some right- wing inspired patriotic act.

It is and was also widely practiced in other countries to the point of torture or death (i.e. Hitler’s Roman-inspired praise salute with the “right hand” level with the “forehead”. Couldn’t do business in Germany without it!). It is presently “enforced” in American public schools, some right-wing churches, all governmental buildings, all military installations, and even some businesses. In the “city of brotherly love”, Philadelphia PA, there was (circa 1967) or still is a city ordinance that all public buildings, INCLUDING churches, are “REQUIRED” to have this figurative/literal symbol of the “mark of the wild beast” somewhere in the building if not erected on a pole outside.

Hmmmm… So all of you so-called “enlightened” and patriotic individuals just missed this one, huh?

6) Regarding this so-called "rapture", which is just another anti- Christian-like Catholic/Protestant invention, the inspired bible writers were referring to a very select number of anointed and faithful humans referred to at Rev 14:1. The Earth is NOT going to be destroyed during Armageddon, not ever! Actually just the evil humans (i.e. true meaning of "the world") on it will be destroyed. That would be those who side, or inadvertently worship, the devil, the wild beast, and his many, already present, Anti-Christs. They don’t want you to see nor understand John’s words at Rev 21:1.

7) It’s unfortunate that the Iridium satellite is advertised as having “66” low orbiting satellites with “6” orbiting back-up satellites on their web site. But this was just someone’s idea of a bad joke at Boeing, the one’s who own Iridium. Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that there is 72 Iridium satellites in orbit today? These satellites or “birds” are not tasked for DoD surveillance. That’s for the much more powerful and super-secret Keyhole birds. These birds are not for IBM chip tracking or people tracking! These birds are for sat-phone calls worldwide. Yes THEY can track an Iridium sat-phone user but they can do that to a regular phone or cell-phone too. IBM radio chips don’t have enough RF power to travel up to a satellite 22,000 miles up even with a hi-gain parabolic antenna. They are used for close range 'expensive artwork' ID, pet ID, and maybe a future marketing tool. This is NOT what John meant by 666 and the possibly coming ‘one world economy’. Look at their web site http://iridium.com/ for a better understanding of this company.

Enforced allegiance to any socio-economic based government just because you were born there, be it democracy, communism, fascism, or some heretofore future enforced allegiance to some possibly future one world anti-Christian dictator is simply wrong and ungodly! If a person believes that ALMIGHTY GOD (and His Son) should be the ONLY rulers of this planet that person(s) should be allowed to demonstrate that allegiance rather than being forced to salute, with “right-hand or forehead”, to some weak imperfect manmade world government. Incidentally a government invented by secretly anti-Christian political entities. Who ostensibly have murky ties to dangerous secret societies that would allow Auguste Bartholdi to put a torch in the “right hand”, a book in the left, and the seven-pointed diadem above the “forehead” of the “Statue of Liberty” (all symbols of a secret society).

Spooky

-- Spooky (spook@thetruth.com), February 20, 2004.