Some regulars have asked for a thread that will help them think through a variety of personal and home defense measures that do not rely on guns. Let's not rehash whether such is wise or not. The fact is, there will be plenty of good folks in this situation for reasons of conviction.

If you can offer them some simple, meaningful advice on ways to behave, prepare their home, relate risks to bug-out and, of course, suggest weapons that are defensive but non-lethal, I know they will be quite grateful.

Links to other threads on this forum, the classic forum or across the Net are welcome.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), October 13, 1999

Answers

I have seen taser guns and stun guns recommended. They give your opponent an electric shock and momentarily stun them. I suppose they could work if combined with handcuffs. The basic problem is, if you don't kill them, then how do you prevent them from coming back at you?

-- Amy Leone (leoneamy@aol.com), October 13, 1999.

While I have weapons, ammunition and the bent to use them if necessary, I can appreciate those who prefer a non-lethal approach.

Stun guns do work well, but proximity is required, and that can be a problem. Same for pepper spray or something similar.

Some folks tout the use of attack dogs, but they're at risk from poisoning, gunshots, etc.

Location has a great deal to do with decision-making. What will work for me in the country won't work for an apartment dweller in Dallas. If you are unarmed and wish to stay that way, then discretion is, indeed, the better part of valor. Keep a low profile or...

Go the other way. There's strength in numbers. A group armed with baseball bats is more formidable than an individual with a gun or knife.

-- Vic (Rdrunner@internetwork.net), October 13, 1999.

for general purposes, the presence of a dog is a big help.

preferably a black dog.

The houses on either side of us have been messed with at one point or another, but not ours, all we had was a black dog that barked.

It was a standard poodle.

go figure. (?)

a few small fire extinguishers might come in handy for temporarily blinding or disabling someone.

The baseball bats are a very good idea. A few aluminum bats sequestered throughout the house is not a bad idea.

-- plonk! (realaddress@hotmail.com), October 13, 1999.

Summary of an answer I posted in the thread titled: "This is the month I have to fortify my old house for better security and safety. How?"

Prop a bee hive up against the door. (Spoils their aim at the very least. Perhaps they drop THEIR guns and run screaming out of the house...then you're armed and have to get tips from another message thread :)

Drill oversize holes part way into stair treds. Drop in nails, pointy end up, so they attach to the shoe sole on the first step and drive into the food on the second step.

Fill "soaker" water pistols with amonia and chili oil.

Also: lots of things you can do with shipping pallets you find disgarded everywhere. Nail them to the floor in front of a door. Drop them from the ceiling or the top of the stairs. Build compost bins in your back yard filled with all the disgarded leaves in the neighborhood...then build a last resort hiding place under the bins (but check out The $50 and Up Underground House Book first and the authors #3 video).

-- Dennis Law (PaulLaw@aol.com), October 13, 1999.

This is only good for very close contact, but we have bought a Myotron. (There is a website about it.) It's sort of like a stun gun, and you have to actually touch the person with it, but it puts them out of commission until you can decide what to do with them. If they start to get up before you have decided, give them another shot. We also have guns, but you never know what kinds of situations you might end up in.

-- Pearlie Sweetcake (storestuff@home.now), October 13, 1999.

Pepper mace.

-- SH (Squirrel@hunter.com), October 13, 1999.

One of my alternatives is a canned 'foghorn', really loud. You hear them at football games and such. Got mine at a military surplus store, but I am sure marine supply stores should carry them. This may help deter in the abscence of a dog as loud noises draw attention (usually). If you have neighbors (apts, condos etc) talk to them about assistance when the foghorn does it's thing. Have lots of alternatives if you are not going to have a firearm for safety.

-- Sammie Davis (sammie0x@hotmail.com), October 13, 1999.

Rent and watch the videos "Home Alone" and "Home Alone II: Lost in New York" for ideas.

-- Libby Alexander (libbyalex@aol.com), October 13, 1999.

Cayenne Pepper ground fine is a great equalizer. (black pepper ground fine works too)

Thrown at close range into the face - coughing, sneezing, watering and burning eyes - can impair movement - followup with the proverbial aluminum bat (also will deter dogs or other animals from attacking)

Mixed with water and put into a Super Soaker squirt gun(shake well before spraying) (This will give you a little more distance from the attacker) will do the same thing if sprayed into the face

Tobasco or Habenero Hot Pepper Sauce (the hotter the better) will also work when sprayed into the face (Super Soaker) (This will provide better results than just water and powdered pepper and will most likely rout your attacker unless he is hopped up on drugs)

Liquid Dish soap and water (alot of soap) sprayed into the eyes at close range also I believe lemon or lime juice will do the same with lesser effect though it will not incapacitate it should slow them down enough for escape or so you can hit them with the aluminum bat

Other household chemicals may be used but could cause serious harm to the attacker (ie blindness, poisoning or death)

-- ExCop (Yinadral@juno.com), October 13, 1999.

Would you really defend yourself or your family? How much force, how precisely focused must it be, and how masterful is your delivery? Are you a good judge of people, animals, and situations, how quickly can you make such judgements, and are there things that you will not do (no matter what)? How courageous, temperate, prudent, compassionate, and just are you? Should you just hide or run away? These are some questions to think about before deciding on a method of self defense.

-- Stan Faryna (faryna@groupmail.com), October 13, 1999.

Thinking of your situation (location and climate), water may be your best choice. If you can rig some sort of pressurizing system you can have a water cannon type of weapon. If there are baddies about, just hose 'em down. In the middle of winter where you're located, getting a good soaking would be a fatal encounter.

In a pre-emptive move, if you have water to spare use it to create ice barriers along the roads approaching your place. Simply find a grade which gets bad when there's ice and snow on the pavement and make more ice. If things are really bad and there's no fuel for non- essential use, you won't have to worry about road crews plowing your barriers off the road.

And it might be a very long time before a good, thick ice sheet will melt by sun and warm weather along. Like late April or early May in a really good year.

WW

-- Wildweasel (vtmldm@epix.net), October 13, 1999.

I my self am partial to electric fencing. A unit can be purchased for less than $60 and then a "curtian" of wire can be put around the house. It can be a shocker!

(Make sure to turn the unit off before you touch the wire)

-- Electric (Protection@It.Works), October 13, 1999.

I have been wondering how effective those nasty cans of wasp/hornet spray would be.. you know the ones that you can stand back and send a stream up into the rafters and kills them and black widows in seconds?

Stan, I would not hesitate to kill if need be to protect my family. And I would not be trying to "wound" them either - always a mistake. If my life (and my family's) was so worthless to him/her that they endanger us then they mean nothing to me. I try to think of all sorts of ways to help others and avoid that scenario, but if need be it will be done with no hesitation. Sorry to disappoint you. (If it helps, I hate to even have to butcher the extra roosters around here - that's why I have 12 young crowers at 4:30 this a.m., but when I do them in I try my darnedest to be quick and as painless/no anticipation as possible for the birds - I do my best).

-- Kristi (securxsys@cs.com), October 13, 1999.

this is retarded. you have to qualify what you mean by "personal security" does that mean killing people as effectively as possibly w/o guns? or does it mean keeping bad people away... without guns because rosie o'donnell told me they were evil and made loud noises? Or is it I don't want any guns because i can't hit a damn thing with them? look, if you want to defend your house w/o guns, get a few god swords, pikes halberds, crossbows, etc, and a whole bunch of claymore mines. when the baddies approach, encouraged by your release of easily shot dogs, and you ineffectual waving of stupid medieval implements, you can set off your charges, and squee gee them off the front windows. really, get serious. Squirt guns? HA HA! pallets? HA HA HA! Home alone movies!! HA HA HA HA HA HA!!! you guys better hope nothing bad happens. Now, you may take offense at what I just said.... but, seriously, if you can't muster the guts or the cash or the skills to defend your own home, then do what people have always done: PAY SOMEONE ELSE TO DO THE DIRTY WORK FOR YOU!!! that's right, the division of labor, (ie I grow veggies, you shoot marauders) just beware, the higher prestige job usually goes to the guy with the guns. (you might hear something about contract renegotiations involving your daughter come springtime) But don't, whatever you do, convince yourslef you can really defend your home witha squirt gun and a doberman... please... stop kidding yourselves. find a professional, or prepare to face the consequences.

-- Jeremiah (braponspdetroit@hotmail.com), October 14, 1999.

If you're lucky the looters will just molest you and your children and not kill you before taking your food.

-- (Apokoliptik@yahoo.com), October 14, 1999.

Kristi didn't disappoint me (smile). My questions are not loaded. I think people need to think about these very personal things very carefully. Most importantly, know thyself. With such self-knowledge, you can make contingency plans that are appropriate for you. For example, I think Jeremiah makes some good points. If you have it in you to use deadly force on an aggressor who is threatening you or your family and you don't want a gun, I think you need to really explore why it is that you don't want to have a gun for self-defense. Are you being reasonable.

If you fear the legal consequences, I believe that if you are going to be prosecuted for manslaughter, it may not make much of a difference whether you shot the aggressor, beat them with an aluminum baseball bat, or bash their skull in with a big rock. Then, again, it might make a difference. Baseball bats, sticks, knives, cars, etc... these are often considered deadly weapons in normal times. And the force and determination it takes to physically kill an aggressor with such means... may be construed as problematic or excessive in a court of law.

For example, did you continue to bash in the skull of the aggressor when he was already subdued? Did you stab the aggressor thirty times? If you disabled an agressor and held them captive for 14 days in what might be construed as a cruel and unusual manner, what will judge and jury think? It seems to me that this may be evaluated much differently than three shots in the chest of an armed aggressor that was facing you when you shot them. Of course, I'm not a lawyer, but you may want to consult a criminal defense attorney and find out how courts act in such cases.

Moreover, if you are going to disable aggressors, you will need to restrain them, and you may need to feed and water them as well. Have you prepared a brig of sorts with food, water, and medicine? If you tie them to a tree outside and they die of exposure, etc., and its not teotwawki, you may have to do some time for that... as well as your accomplices. Are you mentally and physically prepared to go to prison or a work camp for your actions? Or are you prepared to flee as soon as you can-- if you do something that may lead to an arrest and/or conviction?

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (faryna@groupmail.com), October 14, 1999.

If it gets bad there is NO substitute for a firearm. I sell bulletproof vests, but my advice is to buy a gun BEFORE you buy a bulletproof vest. At the risk of encouraging it, here is my experience with non-gun options

NON-GUN OPTIONS:

These are good for encounters with intruders who don't have a gun--and can help cut off escalations of verbal confrontations:

PEPPER SPRAY: I carried pepper spray for several years before chasing down a car thief and spraying him with it--I was too close and backsprayed myself as well--it is highly effective in shutting down vision! :-( Pepper spray can work--IF THEY DON'T HAVE A GUN--and you don't spray it too close, or upwind, or they don't swing an arm at the wrong moment and deflect it back to you, etc., etc. ... Have it handy, but don't bet your life on it. It has worked perfectly on an attacking dog for me--spraying downwind!

CLUBS: I'd stick with the simplicity of a long stout club, e.g., 3- 5 feet. of heavy curtain rod. One big advantage is you can thrust with the point to disable or keep intruders at bay, as well as strike sideways. A good martial arts instructor should be able to show you the basic moves--keep it simple! Legally you can't carry a "club" in my state--but, unless modified, it is just a curtain rod. :-) 5 STARS ;-)

MAGLITES: The 4 or 6, 'D' cell Maglites are a great combination of flashlight and club, if held overhand (like the cops hold them, over your head). Keep by your bedside table. 5 STARS ;-)

KEYCHAIN STRIKER: For convenience I am never without my 6 inch keychain striker--gives your closed fist a 2 inch spike of aluminum sticking out the end. It is great because it is usually at hand and increases the power of a closed hand, five or ten-fold.

KNIVES: I remember what my defensive tactics instructor (and his assistant instructor, a street cop) always said--if you are in a knife fight, expect to be cut. The street cop also said that they have great intimidation value--if you look like you want to use it. Personally my threshold for using a club is a lot lower than for a knife, so that is my preference. But you are going to need a knife anyway for many uses--have it as a backup.

STUN GUNS: Do you really want to depend on the batteries not failing, or not too much heavy clothing, when the threat is at close to zero range? Nope!

YOUR BRAIN: The most important self defense tool. Y2K could be a field day (or month, or year...) for criminals. Law-abiding citizens operate under a huge disadvantage when confronted by criminals, because the criminal is usually the one initiating the attack. By design you are REacting in catch-up mode. Plus, you are trying to follow moral and legal rules--double handicap. Anticipation of dangerous situations, and mental visualization of your response is critical.

Whatever option you choose, testing it, training with it, and then mentally rehearsing it is absolutely critical . Under extreme stress or adrenalin, you will only do well, what you have trained yourself to do well.

Be safe,

Nick ======================================================= - Bulletproof Vests for Law-Abiding Civilians -

888-374-7029 * 512-647-7147 * solutions@access1.net =======================================================

-- CONCEALABLE BODY ARMOR (solutions@access1.net), October 14, 1999.

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"OC" Grenades: Non-flammable, reduces pauses and hesitation encountered with incendiary devices. Toss this device out your window into the front or back yard to disrupt an attack.

Extraction Device: (controlled release) This device comes with a flexible tube that can be inserted into any cracks, suspended ceilings or available openings. Drill a hole into your doors and windows and use it to discourage entry at those positions.

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-- Stan Faryna (faryna@groupmail.com), October 14, 1999.

This question about lethality and consequences is critical on both sides. Unless law and order entirely breaks down, use of lethal force is perilous legally IF non-lethal force can be used successfully.

OTOH, as has been pointed out, the use of non-lethal force leaves an adversary "intact" for future threat.

In general, each one has to consider how much force they are prepared to apply in given situations and take full responsibility for the consequences that follow.

This is not necessarily a binary problem. Some situations favor putting ice on the roads or using pepper spray even IF one has a Mossberg available for the next level of danger/threat, as indicated.

-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), October 14, 1999.

You do not have to get up close with the taser gun, which is a stun gun that sends its rays out many, many feet! These are available in Northern VA, and must be around the country. Cost is the same as a gun, but if you are seeking non-lethal in which you do not have to touch the perpetrator, this is it. However, again, what do you do with this dangerous person after you stun him and he comes to after the promised 15 minutes?

Also, see the thread about protecting one's house from a couple of days ago, where a number of suggestions were offered.

I think that barbed or razor wire around one's window/patio access would be a real deterrent also. (Where does one find the latter?)

-- Elaine Seavey (Gods1sheep@aol.com), October 14, 1999.

Beyond concerns about arrest and conviction for man slaughter and/or premeditated murder (didn't you write that you were going to shoot a trespasser on the TB2000 forum? And here are your very words in the archive!), consider also the potential for civil actions for wounding a person (directly or indirectly). Wild Weasel's icing the road is clever, but if a neighbor saw you do it, will they be a witness against you if someone crashed their car and/or was injured as a result. If someone cuts themselves on your concertina or slips on your icy sidewalk, I hope they don't sue you for your house and gold (didn't you mention you had gold American Eagle coins on the TB2000 forum?).

The problem with coming short of teotwawki should be very obvious by now. We are constrained by laws in devising practical methods of self-defense. Don't expect a DGI or DWGI jury to have any sympathy for you, after all, a prosecutor may demonstrate that you were a whacko survivalist. So when you evaluate any of the various weapons that may be used for your self-defense, do seek legal counsel and understand the local laws and cases where the defendant claimed that they acted in self-defense. My purpose here is not to discourage you in thinking about and making contingency plans for self defense, but to explore all the ramifications of choosing a specific or a variety of tactics.

There are several non-violent measures that can be taken: strong doors (fiberglass or steel, for example) with good locks and, possible a 2 x 4 brace. Cover easily accesible windows with marine plywood or even something stronger. Of course, if you have lots of money to put into non-violent home defense, you can install fire doors on steel frames, shatter-resistant windows with steel shudders, etc. Build safe rooms. Work with your neighbors to get a 24 hour neighborhood watch going and equip them with CBs. Be sure to coordinate with local police and fire departments to use a channel for emergencies. If you take action as a neighborhood against outsiders, you stand a better chance of not being a target.

Running a 24 hour neighborhood watch team that is securing the whole neighborhood will be very difficult. Most people are likely to not pay enough attention to what is going on, fall asleep, etc. If they are armed, they probably don't have a license to be an armed guard (if your local area or state requires such). They might get in trouble. And you should be prepared to pay for their legal defense and to take care of their family for months to years-- whether or not you agree that they did the right thing (if it comes to that). Those who patrol the neighborhood with guard dogs might need the same kind of support if the dogs end up biting someone. On these matters, neighbors will be divided.

In fact, the neighborhood might want to hire a retired police officer to watch the neighborhood. If you do hire an armed security guard, treat them very well or they may just turn their back on you in a real crunch. Make sure someone brings your armed guard hot coffee through out the night. Alternate homes that are open to him througout the day or night: he'll need to warm up, use the bathroom, get something to eat, etc. If you don't like or trust your armed guard enough to have him in your homes, you better find you that you can trust and have in your homes. You might also provide him with provisions for his family including food, water, kerosene heater, kerosene, blankets, etc.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (faryna@groupmail.com), October 14, 1999.

During my last years as an undergraduate, I worked as a night time security guard for a company owned and managed by former Israeli commanders. During one incident, I completely unloaded a high powered pepper spray into an assailant's face to no satisfying result. The first blast enraged the assailant. Was this the Hulk? I wondered in terror. After I recovered consciousness several hours later, I decided that pepper spray was not an effective measure of self defense. Of course, mileage will vary.

Sincerely, Stan Faryna

-- Stan Faryna (faryna@groupmail.com), October 14, 1999.

Check out the great answers regarding mirrors, flashlights, etc in:

http://server2.ezboard.com:8080/fhoodlumsy2krumorsandpreparations.show Message?topicID=80.topic&index=20

(Note: the Hoodlems take their name from the person who runs the www.survival.com website: Dr. Ron Hood.)

-- Dennis Law (PaulLaw@aol.com), October 14, 1999.

My $.02...

Never ever, EVER, take a (your non-lethal weapon here) to a gunfight...

scratchin'...

The Dog

-- Dog (Desert Dog@-sand.com), October 17, 1999.

One more thing, I read a story a couple of years back of an intruder who the homeowner sprayed with pepper spray. It did NOT hamper the very large man. It pissed off the intruder so much that he tortured the man's family in front of him, before killing them all, leaving the man alive to live with it. I can't remember where I read it, but I think it happened in Italy. Can you imagine? I can't...

Think about your family before using non-lethal means.

And dogs...: ) we will deter an intruder just by barking... best damn alarm system money can buy...; )

nippin' at an itch....

The Dog

-- Dog (Desert Dog@-sand.com), October 17, 1999.

What ever happened to num-chucks?

-- Amy Leone (leoneamy@aol.com), October 18, 1999.

Pepper spray grenades: http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/grenade.htm

Pepper spray neutralizer wipes: http://www.teleweb.net/web123/prod04.htm

Also, if you have a few moments before someone breaks in the door: consider a shopping cart clipped to the floor and/or filled with somthing heavy that's tied into the cart so it can't be dumped out (ie books, bricks) placed in front of the door so the intruder has to push it out of the way. The natural response is to grab it by the handle...and if the handle is covered with crazy glue: it's tar baby time! Then all you need is a club... or even a plastic bag.

-- Dennis Law (PaulLaw@aol.com), October 19, 1999.

Gateway electronics has a motion detector kit (minor ammount of soldering and elect. knoledge req.) 9.95=sh 4.5+/-, anyhow this is a great little motion sensor works up to 2 mi. on a twisted pair of copper wire. (your phone box usually has an extra pair that goes all the way out by driveway. usually 4-5 day ups shipping. I have ordered 8 on two separate orders. very satisfied. www.gateway.com I think.

-- Brent (lopro.@aol.com), December 06, 1999.