Urban area: use of subsonic or shotgun loads in .22

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We live in an urban area. (suburb)

There is no way my wife will pickup my 12 guage and use it, but she might use the .22 rifle.

Given the close proximity of other houses and humans, she would probably only use this in a close range situation as a deterent.

I have a few types of loads for the rifle, depending on the situation, bunch of subsonic for the .22 to minimize the noise, some HP but I also got some "shotgun" loads for the .22

These are normally use for close range ONLY (5-15 ft) to shoot at squirrels and birds in your garage.

Does anyone have any comments positive or negative about the use of these "shotgun" loads for "deterent" self defense? or to scare someone away? please don't forget, this is a SUBURBAN area.

btw- my wife won't prep for anything until the sky falls on her head. and this rifle would be left with her only if I had to leave for some reason, (like to go to the ATM or something. )

-- plonk! (realaddress@hotmail.com), October 13, 1999

Answers

Well, you could blind someone with the .22 birdshot, or really get them angry ...

The birdshot works better in a pistol than a rifle, oddly, probably because the shot has more chance to get spinning as it goes down the rifle barrel, so centrifugal force sprays it wider. It'll punch holes in paper, and would take out a snake at 6 feet or so, but it's not a real stopper. I bought a little of it as an experiment, but that's all it is.

Suggest you look at standard .22 loads and high-capacity magazines. 3 rounds of .22 is about equivalent to a single .38. The same total energy, but missing some of the shock factor. The advantage is that it's not scary to hold and shoot, and a weapon you're not afraid to use is better than a cannon you are afraid of. Also, a .22 puts out virtually no flame, while a larger caliber can flash pretty bright.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), October 13, 1999.


One suggestion ia a powderless .22 shell that fires on the primer alone. These are made in Mexico and should be available from your local gunshop. They are almost noiseless -- just a soft "poof" that is ideal from those who may need to "illegally" discharge a firearm within the city limits, come Y2K. Only thing is, they probably do not have any stopping power; and there is not enough power in the charge to advance your rounds in a semi-auto 22. But if your wife is a steady hand and a quick reload, these might be useful. I'm plannign on using them simply for the deterrent effect of having silent whizzing bullets running my fenceline at night.

-- SH (Squirrel@hunter.com), October 13, 1999.

bw- thanks I never expected the load to be "stopper", but it's gotta be better than a pellet gun.

plus if she missed, the damage would be minimal. This is very important in getting her to even hold the gun or even think of using it. If she thinks she can't kill anyone with it, she is more likely to use it for defensive purposes. If the encounter is scary enough for her, she might "consider" the real shotgun next time.

One step at a time.

plus if she missed, there would still be a shot, so whoever she was shooting at would at least know she was capable of pulling the trigger. Hey, maybe it was a "warning" shot.........

The way I figure it,

1: The presence of the gun alone may deter a certain percentage of unwanted persons.

2: Another percentage who are not detered by the gun itself, or think that she won't shoot at them, will be scared off when she does pull the trigger.

3. The remaining intruders don't care and to be perfectly honest, my wife wouldn't kill anyone if her life depended on it (?) hey, that's the way it is....she just would not pick up a shotgun and use it. period.

Squirrel- I haven't tried the sub-sonic rounds in the .22 yet, hopefully they have enough oomph to allow the semi-auto feature to reload.

I have 3 mags for the thing, 1 will be for hollow-points

1 will be for sub-sonics

1 will be for those shotgun thingies

gotta go-

-- plonk! (realaddress@hotmail.com), October 13, 1999.


The primer-only guys are called BB-caps and CB-caps. BB-caps means it's a big BB. CB-caps means ConicalBall, so it's like a BB with a point. Neither one will make an auto-loader cycle correctly, and both of them are SO SHORT that you need good dexterity to load them at all, much less in the dark or in a hurry.

They were invented for sideshow shooting galleries, for ultra-cheap ammo. Don't think of them as anything to shoot a live target with - they are paper punchers.

BTW - a rifle is an excellent idea. A pistol is hard to handle for a beginner, easy to drop, easy to wobble and shoot yourself. A rifle takes two hands.

All that aside, I still say if you are not familiar with guns, DO NOT buy one just for Y2k. Having guns will get you over-confident and you'll make a mistake that gets you killed. If you do decide to arm yourself, take a firearms safety course. And make sure every family member knows how to make a gun safe - how to decock, how to remove the magazine, how to unload the chamber.

Getting firearms is a big decision and a potentially dangerous one. You want to decrease your risks, not increase them.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), October 13, 1999.


plonk

Is the .22 a semi-auto? If so then get regular .22 long rifle ammo and as high a capacity magazine that you can. Maybe, just maybe, if the wife-ski empties the magazine in to her attacker she may be able to stop the attack. But that is pushing it. This is really misuse of a firearm. Your better off givng her a stun gun or mace. They are at least designed to stop an attack without making much noise.

.22 long rifle shot shells are just hard bug spray. Sure, you wouldn't want it in your eyes, but neither would you want an eye-full of wasp and hornet killer.

Watch six and keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.not), October 13, 1999.



"hard bug spray" -- darn, wish I'd thought to say that!

-- bw (home@puget.sound), October 13, 1999.

the rifle is a Ruger semi-automatic.

Actually the wife may get a chance to fire all the guns ( but not necessarily shoot well with them) in the not too distant future. She has expressed interest in learning to shoot, but a disconnect exists between expressing an interest and actually following through.

It's a long story

anyways, the comments about "hard bug spray" are interesting.

Perhaps what I could do is load a magazine with High Velocity Hollow- Points, but make sure the first 2 out of the mag are those "hard bug sprays". I mean if someone keeps coming after 2 shots of that spray, they deserve the next shot or two or three of HP.

as I said before, I'm just getting feedback at the moment. The only one (in our house) who seems interested in properly using firearms for defense if necessary seems to be me. Therefore, unless circumstances are really bad, I'll be the only one with access to them and the only one to use them only if necessary.

And as for buying guns "just for Y2K", well, there are alot of things I've bought "just for Y2K". but each purchase brings me access to a new world of info or a new tool and I have to learn the proper rules and procedures for each. I enjoy learning. Thanks to my gun purchases, I'm learning what these tools are good for and what they are not good for.

This forum and the rest of the internet is certainly not my only source of info, the guys at the range have been helpful as well.

thanks for all the reminders and suggestions. Hope someone else is taking notes too

-- plonk! (realaddress@hotmail.com), October 13, 1999.


Plonk,

The city of Mill Creek is buying riot gear, mostly because the guys wanted it all along and Y2k is an excuse. I think that's your universal guy response; it sure works for me.

The 10-22 is a rock solid piece of gear. I've put several thousand rounds thru mine, not a single misfeed, different kinds of magazines. You can still get 25-round mags for these, but they are no longer being manufactured. Check pawn shops and gun shows. The Bear Creek folks (I think that's the name) are now making 10-round mags that link together in 3's, for an equivalent system. Kinda cumbersome, looks like to me.

I doubt that the shotshell will make it cycle, and might jam. Try it before you load your mags that way. The .22 is so small that as a rule of thumb you want to shoot the biggest round you can. CCI Mini-Mag LRHP is good.

Whatever you do with firearms, make sure safety comes first. Have everyone who's going to shoot it take a safety course, if possible. Make sure everyone in the house, shooter or not, knows how to unload it and how to handle (or not handle!) a loaded weapon.

-- bw (home@puget.sound), October 14, 1999.


plonk

After further thought I felt I should leave you with this information. The .22 long rifle can and has killed men in one shot. In the hands of a good rifle(wo)man your 10/22 can be an effective weapon, but not with shot shells. The problem is your talking about mating a low powered weapon with an amature operator. You can't have both and expect much better than a 20% chance of stopping the attack. And that takes in to account the psychological factor of being shot.

If your going to go for a low noise attack stopper I repeat, a gun is not for you.

On the other hand, did Clintons '93 Crime Stimulus Package ban silencers? I understand that the transfer tax on them is around $5. Is that still so? bw? Anyone? With a silencer and a sub-sonic bullet you will have a quiet enough gun for what you want. The draw back is that you will have a highly regualted peice of equipment.

bw is dead on about the training and safety aspect of things.

Watch six and keep your...

-- eyes_open (best@wishes.not), October 14, 1999.


Re: "silencers",

Silencers were "banned" in 1928, along with fully automatic weapons; except a person can still buy them by going through all the proper procedures, according to state and local laws. In Texas (and many other states), if you can legally own a handgun, you can legally own a fully automatic weapon. It just takes more paperwork, a lot longer (9 months on my last one), and a $200.00 transfer tax stamp. The $200 may have gone up; I heard it rumored that it was. Silencers are covered in the same law, and procedures and costs are the same.

Gerald

-- Gerald R. Cox (grcox@internetwork.net), October 15, 1999.



Silencers are in the same class as full-auto weapons, and regardless of state law they are severely restricted under federal law. Getting a permit for either involves signing away your 4th-amendment rights-- they can search your home whenever they want, no warrant required. Having a silencer without a permit, or even parts to a silencer without a permit (this can be very simple and common hardware if they show intent) gets you a $10,000 fine and 10 years in federal prison.

Recent research shows a .223 (eg. AR-15) has excellent performance for urban use--very little overpenetration in spite of serious stopping power. A large-caliber hollowpoint, if it passes through wallboard, will fill up its cavity and not expand, tripling its penetration. This is not a problem for standard military .223. Assuming you hit your target, you shouldn't have too much to worry about, though I haven't heard of similar studies on .22. Hit your target. Shotgun loads in a .22 are fine for rodent control but not much more. If you're not confident that your wife can hit a target inside your house using a rifle, you need to take her to a range. Or at least get an air rifle to practice with at home. It's not "prep," it's a fun hobby....

-- Shimrod (shimrod@lycosmail.com), October 27, 1999.


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