Y2k bug 'will bring cars to a standstill'

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http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/dynamic/news/story.html?in_review_id=221249&in_review_text_id=171648

Link Y2K bug 'will bring cars to a standstill'

by David Williams Motoring Correspondent

Thousands of cars could be stricken by the millennium bug, leaving their drivers stranded at the roadside during New Year celebrations, the AA warned today.

Safety systems such as life-saving airbags or anti-lock braking are bug-proof, but highly sophisticated engine management devices might fail, the organisation said after putting 10 "tough but pertinent" questions to all major vehicle and component manufacturers.

The AA's head of technical policy, John Stubbs, said today: "Most responded only by saying they could not see why their products should be affected.

"Even a statement by the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders falls short of saying that no vehicles could malfunction because of the bug."

According to the AA, the most likely equipment to fail as the clocks strike midnight on New Year's Eve is that used for navigation, or service "logging" which is date-dependent.

Engine management systems will be especially prone; problems might upset timing or fuel delivery, impairing or halting the engine's performance.

Electronic chips buried in other hi-tech car systems could fail, including on-board computers.

"The good news is that safety-related systems can be relied upon," said Mr Stubbs.

"The almost-as-good news is that if your car won't start on New Year's Day, it is much more likely to be a failed battery than an attack of the millennium bug."

With 23 million vehicles on the roads, however, breakdown services would receive.thousands of distress calls even if a tiny proportion of cars fail owing to the bug.

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) Associated Newspapers Ltd., 21 October 1999 Terms and Conditions This Is London

-- Homer Beanfang (Bats@inbellfry.com), October 21, 1999

Answers

Hmmmm. To the best of my current knowledge, this will a very minor problem if it is a problem at all. We've all heard about problems with industrial/commercial vehicles (some firetrucks, for example).

But I know of no documented cases where a Joe Average vehicle has been shown to be at risk of failure due to Y2K. Maybe one - there were those motorcycles in England (what was the name?)

I just don't see this a huge risk. I'm more concerned about fuel and parts manufacturing and distribution pipelines (both literal and metaphorical).

But I can't say I been following this issue closely in recent weeks. Does anyone have specific data that would suggest this article is anything more than idle speculation?

-- Arnie Rimmer (Arnie_Rimmer@usa.net), October 21, 1999.


I know of nothing new - there never has been any indication, nor any actual tests, to show a potential problem with cars.

Me thinks idle speculation based on poor research. However - what is ignored is the teriary effects:

- No power/power interuption/telephone/satellite/credit card interuption that prevents gas from being pumped: never mentioned.

- Screwed up state/local/regional computer that prevents tax records/new license forms from being sent/being received/being processed/being properly processed.

- Screwed up state computers that screw up driver license programs - already happened! Several times!!!

- Screwed up insurance or police "scan" databases for stolen cars, wanted criminals, etc.

- Screwed up emmissions tests, emmisions license cards and permits, or even the emmision test computer itself.....

- Screwed up state payroll/tax/excise tax computers that prevent registration/sales/exchanges/new car sales.....

-- Robert A. Cook, PE (Marietta, GA) (cook.r@csaatl.com), October 21, 1999.


Nissan Sentra's will be whizzing by any stalled cars. I made sure to find that out last Fall.

-- Paula (chowbabe@pacbell.net), October 21, 1999.

OK: I've been dying to ask this: Does anybody else drive a Dodge Ram that needs no servicing but still is flashing the CHECK ENGINE dummy lite??????

-- lisa (lisa@work.now), October 21, 1999.

* * * 19991021 Thursday

Hmm... My response in another thread [Oldsmobile Cutlass '90 Computer Problems, anyone (coprolith, coprolith@rocketship.com, 1999- 10-20) -- at < http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch- msg.tcl?msg_id=001cCK > ] seems adroitly apropos here, too!

Regards, Bob Mangus

* * *

* * * 19991020 Wednesday

[snip]

I've explained the following on this forum a long time ago. For the benefit of newbies, I'll try it again.

-------------------- Background-

I have experience programming (F.O.R.D.) embedded vehicle control modules/systems and a need-to-know familiarity with On Board Diagnostic (OBD) functionality (1990-1996).

Case History-

To the best of my nitty-gritty knowledge, I recall one confirmed story late last year (1998) about a Toyoyta vehicle acknowledged to have a "date" problem. I presume that's been taken care of with a "recall."

General Characteristics of Vehicle Control Systems-

Vehicle control systems of all types are probably the most robust embedded systems deployed today. Why? ... Safety and da lawyers!

Generally, vehicle modules are designed not to be "show" (operability) stoppers. That is, if the juice (power) source to the is "dead" or cattywompus (that's a "technical" term for goofy), the operability of the vehicle MUST not pose any safety risk.

If "normal" operating parameters/specs are not maintained the functionality of the "failed" system or subsystem should default to a "limp along" mode. Cute name, huh?!?

On Board Diagnostic Systems-

On the other hand, the OBD systems are a different animal. On board the vehicle, they are monitor and recording (at predetermined intervals) slaves that may send(feedback) recorded data (status) to another vehicle subsystem for performance purposes.

Here again, the interchange integrity and functionality of the affected vehicle control system(s) should not jeopardize/compromise safety and should permit "limp along" functionality.

The Computers used for diagnosing the vehicle OBD data and functionality specifications of subsystems are likely to harbor date- related Y2K problems.

If a subsystem generates data to be recorded for posterity, it is possible that some chip, some where, may maintain a clock for recording date/time stamp information and/or elapsed timing functions. Recorded data and/or date/time information--stored in special "Keep Alive Memory" (KAM) locations--could be used by external diagnostic computer equipment for, well, diagnosing purposes.

General Info About Vehicle Control System Programmers-

I've seen some pretty "dumb" stuff coded into these itty-bitty (1Kb- 32Kb, these days) systems by some hair brain M.E.'s and E.E.'s. I wouldn't put almost anything past those avocational programming geeks.

Conclusion-

My educated guess is that "limp along" mode will conceal any true Y2K problems from the average driver and passengers. If some problems are found, they'll probably wind up in the "Quiet Recall" queue for FAF (Fix-After-Failure) and JQP none the wiser.

I hope I've succeeded in making this as conceptually simple as possible for GP consumption.

Disclaimer-

This is not to be construed as any warranty against anything at all!!

Check with the respective manufacturer of your vehicle for detailed information. --------------------

Hope this is helpful.

Regards, Bob Mangus

* * *

-- Robert Mangus (rmangus1@yahoo.com), October 21, 1999.

-- Robert Mangus (rmangus1@yahoo.com), October 21, 1999.



It's obvious to me that most of the press is right now at the point in their research that both the Internet-doomers and Internet-pollys were at about 2 years ago. Most are truly as clueless as the doomers and pollys accuse each other of being.

-- Buddy (buddydc@go.com), October 21, 1999.

"Jane, you ignorant slut!"

-- Dan A. Kroid (snl@25.years), October 21, 1999.

I worked with a guy, interviewed him before he was hired, that used to program the engine modules for one of the majors (won't say which one, but Delco is stamped on everything). He told old war stories where they were debuggin the engine software and actually went out in to the loading lots and did the last 'burn' of the engine control software on the car carriers before they pulled out.

-- BH (silentvoice@pobox.com), October 21, 1999.

more lies from those hoping to spread "end of the world" panic.

-- U R (full@of.shit), October 21, 1999.

Someone asked: >OK: I've been dying to ask this: >Does anybody else drive a Dodge >Ram that needs no servicing but >still is flashing the CHECK ENGINE >dummy lite??????

My '91 Ram 150 has that light - it comes on only when I'm towing my race car and then only under heavy load conditions. (Going up a grade pulling about 4000 lbs with the bed all loaded up with another 500 pounds or so.)

It goes out again when I stop and restart the engine. At somewhere around 60K miles, the Maint Required light will also come on and stay on until the reset is pushed when the emission control components are checked and serviced.

Your mileage may vary....

JZ

-- Jeff Zurschmeide (zursch@cyberhighway.net), October 21, 1999.



Thanks, Jeff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I just rolled over 60K ('96) a couple months ago and this has been driving me crazy.

Considered putting black duct tape over the warning because there ain't nothin' wrong w'ma truck!!!!!

-- oh god thanks (lisa@work.now), October 21, 1999.


Our 82 Olds had '99 "check engine light" rollover problems, and our little TV simple quit, kapoof, just before 99 rollover. Ashton's watch had a GPS rollover problem, but it came back on after @ two weeks. The TV still won't turn on. Fortunately we don't have many electronic gadgets. Who knows what will be "inconvenienced?"

-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), October 21, 1999.

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