Remotely detecting the new US currency - evidence please?

greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

I'm going to go out on a limb here. Let me explain why.

Last year, when the proposed "Know Your Customer" regulations began to surface, I was more than skeptical. No way, I said. BS. Urban legend. No way anyone in government would seriously propose such an outrageous idea.

Turned out I was wrong.

Last week, some poster claimed that the Fed was seriously considering issuing currency that had, in essence, an 'expiration date'. No way, I said. BS. Urban legend. No way anyone in government would seriously propose such an outrageous idea.

Turned out I was wrong.

Now several post have stated that the new US currency is 'remotely detectable'.

Once again I say BS. Urban legend. No way.

If you have any references to credible sources, put them on the table now. I'm not interested in anecdotal evidence. I'm especially not interested in FOAF data ("friend of a friend"). I will entertain hard evidence or even circumstancial evidence that is documented.

Second, I would also be interested in what technologies are currently available that might possibly make such a system feasible. What substances could be impregnated into currency that would render it 'remotely viewable'.

-- Arnie Rimmer (Arnie_Rimmer@usa.net), November 04, 1999

Answers

Go ahead, take a newer five or ten, get a razor or scissor and cut either end of the thread.

It is a simple narrow band made of polyethylene or something similiar which is bound into the paper when the paper is made. I doesnt come out easily and isnt programmed or have any material which can be used to transmit a signal or designate it different from others.

It is not readable from ANY distance. It is indistinguishable from any other fibers that are made of the same material in your clothes.

Why the hell anyone would think I could have an assortment of cash in my pocket and some cop is going to scan me from a few hundred feet away and see how much I have.?

How could they tell where it was or how to distinguish the money you have from money someone else in the area has.?

Why the hell do cops or anyone else need to know who has money?. If they want to stop you they will and THEN will search you physically for what they are looking for.

This IS an urban legend, just like the hundreds of others that surface here.

-- hamster (hamster@mycage.com), November 04, 1999.


I have not even begun to think about this topic, however the Books in the library have strips in them that set off the alarms if you for get to "check out" the book,

Perhaps they would need a fairly large scanner and be at close range, but if the library can do it, the fed ought to be able to figure it out.

Things will get worse before they get better....

-- Helium (Heliumavid@yahoo.com), November 04, 1999.


Whatever it would be it will NOT work if the money is in a fire safe or any other metal box for that mater. For those reasons I don't think anyone would be stupit enugh to try it.

Radiowaves or other do not penetrate into a close shielded metal box.

-- noway (noway@noway.bog), November 04, 1999.


Some months ago when the US gov't assured people the money couldn't be detected by an airport metal detector, they were correct, but disingenuous. A slightly different detector is used.

This will cost you twenty dollars, since it ruins the bill. Take the strip out, shred it and look at it under a magnifying glass, a powerful one.

Miniscule metallic particles, akin to the oxide coating on recording tape, will reflect cetain radio energy wavelengths depending on their size, (that is the size of the particles is proprtional to a given wavelength) especially a low powered, high frequency radio signal. This obviously makes machine detection and counting a simple technical matter, similar to the way metal detectors work. The distance at which this can be done depends on the power of the applied signal. If the frequency is high enough, even metal containers won't stop it.

Do not expect any law enforcement agency to reveal this publicly, but in turn they can't expect a technologically literate person won't figure this out.

The best and easiest way to control any population is to control the money, and by extension, our right and ability to make a living.

Be wise as a serpent and smart as a fox.

-- Forrest Covington (theforrest@mindspring.com), November 04, 1999.


No way,

Elecrical waves can be shunted by most conductors such as metals, however not all metals provide magnetic sheilding.

Magnetic fields are permiate aluminum and many stainless steels. Thus there are technologies in which any old metal box may not be sufficent.

-- Helium (Heliumavid@yahoo.com), November 04, 1999.



Arnie,

In order for something to be 'seen' at a distance from the object (millimeters to megameters) there must be an energy reflection/transmission/absorbsion/alteration. That energy must travel through the medium interposed between the object and the observer (usually air, but also say the metal of a car door). Typically this is done with 'radio frequency' wavelength electromagnatism (RF).

There are two ways to use RF for detection: reflection or transmission. You can bounce a beam of RF off of an object and read the return (like a radar gun in a patrol car) or the object can generate its own RF signal (requires power and circuitry plus antenna to radiate the signal, like a radio station). There is a third technique (combo of the first two) which uses a beam of one frequency to excite a tuned circuit which radiates a different frequency.

It is highly impractical to embed a radio transmitter into a piece of paper for many reasons, so we are left with reflective techniques only.

Any metal will interfere with these technologies (belt buckle, aluminum foil hats, pens, coinage, car frames/skins, etc). Typically a reflective technique must sort out the 'noise' from the 'signal' and when you have so much metal around there is alot of 'noise' or interference to deal with.

There is one other technique which COULD be used, but is very probably not in the paper money in circulation today: tuned ciruits. These are used on store packages (they must be neutralized before exiting the store), library books and other 'walkable' stuff. You will notice that these devices are much thicker than a paper dollar and tend to be rigid as well. It is possible that they could develop a printing technique which would be embedded between layers of paper currency, but I doubt that it is there in production now.

Another thing to remember is that, by law, there can only be changes to currency every so often (10-20 years???) and it is a really big task to convert all old currency to new currency when the old currency is in huge distribution like the US dollar is. They hardly have gotten the newer, large denomination bills out there with the new design recently (its taken them 5 years to roll the new designs out into circulation).

I would be very, very surprised to learn that the dinky thread in today's new currency is detectable via RF techniques (except maybe from about 3 inches in a clean room).

I would suspect that a 'new' and 'detectable' dollar would be slightly thicker, have opaque areas sandwiched between thin layers of paper or plastic. Ain't seen that yet and don't know that it would be detectable inside a metal or metal foil container

This from an RF kind of guy.

-- ..- (dit@dot.dash), November 04, 1999.


Forrest,

It seems to me that the wavelength of such miniscule metal particles functioning as rf resonators would be close to infra red, if not shorter. If so, a remote sensor's ability to distinguish them from ambient "noise" would seem problematic.

Jerry

-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), November 04, 1999.


I'm going to wrap my money in tinfoil.

-- seriously (any@other.suggestions?), November 04, 1999.

I heard somewhere in the media that the writing on the strip in the bill was platinum. I reamember thinking that is was kind of cool that now the bill actually had some real value.(I know ,trace amounts not worth much). I also remember that it was stated that to pull the strip was a no no, so I quit playing with them. As far as the rumor goes I heard that a long time ago and nothing surprises me anymore.

-- donthaveanytoworryabout (<$@$.$), November 04, 1999.

i learned about the "new" currency almost 8 years ago, i think, from gary kah's talks and his book that was out at that time. "en route to global occupation" he is usually pretty good at including documentation in the appendices to back up claims. he had first hand knowledge of what the money was supposed to do (and one of them was to be able to be detected as it crosses national borders). start with the info in his book and it may lead you to other documents that talk about the specs of the money, etc.

-- tt (cuddluppy@yahoo.com), November 04, 1999.


Arnie

Here is the first thread on the subject.

 Fed V.P. Wants Tracking Technology Embedded in U.S. Currency

Fed V.P. Wants Tracking Technology Embedded in U.S. Currency

       A Senior Vice President of the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond
       has now proposed that Americans be penalized for carrying cash,
       that tracking information be recorded on every dollar, and that
       perhaps the Fed should prevent Americans from withdrawing cash
       altogether. Banker Paranoia has reached new heights...

I have read somewhere that the individual member of the Fed was voicing speculation and he is not a "big wheel" and should be retired.

Possibly just a bit of a sounding board to get an idea of US folks reactions.

Of course Canadian bills have had holograms in them for years....HHHMMM :o)

-- Brian (imager@home.com), November 04, 1999.


ONE bill, sure. The money in your wallet or money clip? Of course. But what about larger amounts? What if you were, say, trying to smuggle a million dollars...?

-- chairborne commando (what-me-worry@armageddon.com), November 04, 1999.

Brian,

That "tracking" proposal is about a different kind of tracking entirely. It's about recording on each bill when it leaves a bank, and when it returns, and charging a fee for the elapsed time it was out of the bank.

The remote detection to which Arnie refers would, for example, be currency in your pocket, while you are driving your car, being detected by a police officer parked on the side of the road.

Jerry

-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), November 04, 1999.


Jerry

I never noticed the issue till this statement came up from the FRB official and then there is this money tracing thing. Maybe one and the same? Arnie maybe right, some kind of urban myth.

-- Brian (imager@home.com), November 04, 1999.


Brian,

Other differences:

One is specifically a proposal attributed to a public statement by a specific FRB official (although it seems not to have made it to his web page), while the other has been alleged to exist and already to be in use by police, but based on friend of a friend anecdotes which seem unconfirmable and, at least to some of us, implausible. :-)

Jerry

-- Jerry B (skeptic76@erols.com), November 04, 1999.



Three or four or five facts all coming together now...

1) Feds starting to print and issues new "funny looking" bills ($100's, $20's, etc. When was that?);

2)Feds minting and issuing new "state" coins (I see a lot from New Jersey here in Nashville, ?? figure that, why NJ?);

3)Year 2000 problems, and talk of bank runs--Feds make $200 Billion more in CASH (bills/coins) available to banks so they can have enough on hand for all the withdrawals;

4)Feds looking for a way to PREVENT the Excess/Extra CASH that we will withdraw, from staying in circulation (because the Feds don't want the banks' reserve level to stay at this higher point long term. It will throw the U.S. monetary system for a loop.);

5) Feds already discussing using the old money along with the new to make up this $200 billion. Even if the old money is due for "turn in." Ragged; wornout.

So, what do we have now?

If "YOU" were the Feds and knew that you had this Y2K money issue ahead of you, wouldn't you do something like all the above?

You might ask: "What does new funny money have to do with it?" Well, if the NEW money that is entering the market (being taken out in cash for 2000 preparations) looks just like the old money that was already in circulation, how could you "monitor" how much NEW money is still out?...and Where it is?...and how and where it is being circulated?

Sure would be easy if the NEW MONEY looked different than the old! We (the Feds being in charge of this) could actually SEE the difference. And it sure would be easy if the NEW MONEY had some way we (Feds) could actually DETECT it when we CAN'T see it (just in case we need to know where its all being hoarded so we can get it back out of circulation.)

When the new "funny looking" bills were first put into circulation the reason given by the government for the new "BIG" look was: "IT WILL MAKE IT EASIER TO DETECT---counterfeits." (Also make it harder to counterfeit.) The reason given for the new "state" coins was (paraphrased): "To honor each state with its own coin." In other words: TO GIVE IDENTITY TO THE INDIVIDUAL COINS.

[The federal government likes to "ease things on us" so we don't know what the real reasons are. You know all those Interstate highway markers every two-tenths of a mile and two on each off-and on-ramp? The "reason" is for our safety, so we can call in an accident and be more accurate. RIGHT? That's what the government wants us to all think. The real reason is that they are convoy markers--position markers for out-of-town drivers (gov) here to help us. But that's okay. Know those "Tourists tune to A.M. 1610" signs (look like the Interstate signs) that started showing up along with the Interstate signs? How many tourists do you think visit Spring Hill, Tennessee? The only thing there (and I mean the ONLY thing) is the Saturn plant. And there's a "Tourist tune to sign" right in the middle of that little tiny, tiny town. Know those bright greenish/yellow (peagreen) state DOT (Dept. Of Transportation) trucks that cruise the interstates? And on the markings it says "Event Response Unit"...what event? We've been told by the State of Tennessee (TDOT)that they are there to assist motorists...and they do that right now. But they also have equipment on them that can scoot up under a car and actually lift it off the road and onto the side, getting it out of the way so as to not block up the traffic. So, we hear a lot of misinformation right now from the government.] I have yet to see any of these new coins except Quarters and as far as I can recall, all from New Jersey (but then, I'm not in a habit of looking at my Quarters real close!). I have not seen a new Tennessee Quarter and I live in Tennessee. Guess the plan was to issue the state coins to other states except that which is on the coin itself. ??)

Could it be that the New Jersey coin was initially introduced in NJ and made its way to Nashville? What a surprise! Being able to see where a Quarter originated and now look where it is! Sure would be nice, if I were a banker, to be able to somehow automatically "sort" all today's NJ Quarters separate from all Florida's Quarters. Then I would be able, on my daily report, to show something like: "All these Quarters came in today and they were all from Florida--number of Quarters and dollar amount" and "All these other Quarters came in today and these were all from Tennessee--number, dollars, etc."

Now that the Quarters look different for each state, wouldn't be too hard to make that happen. How interesting.

Maybe we will start seeing new "funny looking" $50's and $1's and maybe some new "state" dimes and nickles and maybe even a dollar. (If any of these are already in circulation I haven't seen them.)

Ever heard of "Military Payment Certificates?" That was "new money" (also called "script") printed by the U.S. for use by the troops in Viet Nam. Reason was that the U.S. did not want us (I was there with the U.S. Marines) to give the U.S. currency to the Viet Namese...there was a real black market going on there with U.S. dollars. Points: If U.S. dollars get out of the U.S. circuit (in the hands of another country) it messes everything up--simple economic terms! And, the other point is that the Feds can always print a new "script" any time and declare the old "script" no longer of any value--so you can't use it 'cause no one will take it. It is worthless. The new script is then issued in a controlled fashion in order to establish its value and get everything balanced again. We hope.

Well, I didn't intend to be writing my next Year 2000 article here, but it looks like I've done it. Kinda. (Look for me at Gary North's and Westergaard's site. If I knew how, I'd send this to Gary North right now. Don't know how to send Discussion stuff!

Keep it up til it's all over! Warren.

-- warren bone (wbone@home.com), November 05, 1999.


Jerry wrote

"Brian,

Other differences:

One is specifically a proposal attributed to a public statement by a specific FRB official (although it seems not to have made it to his web page)"

Well if tracking lose cash doesn't make it in the FRD speeches then it is speculation. If a simple confermation of tracking real cash is not forthcoming then having new currency is no doubt bogus. Now I like checking out the Fed but don't care about the banks or money as a rule. So I like looking at the top :o).

I think that this ability to track money is a bunch of bullshit to tell you the truth. There is only so far that TPTB can go before TSHTF. It is MHI that technology will disrupt the situation if nothing else.

They are just tempting fate.

When you temp fate you can lose.

Actually technology is a loose cannon in society right now. Regardless of Y2K if it doesn't have heart it won't exist long. But that doesn't mean it won't be easy.

Pretty soon they will be taxing Emails *VBG*

-- Brian (imager@home.com), November 05, 1999.




Congratulations on buying most of the urban legends around!!
Three or four or five facts all coming together now... 1) Feds starting to print and issues new "funny looking" bills ($100's, $20's, etc. When was that?);
Roughly, 1996.
2)Feds minting and issuing new "state" coins (I see a lot from New Jersey here in Nashville, ?? figure that, why NJ?);
One new one each month for the last 6 (+/-) months and for the next 44
3)Year 2000 problems, and talk of bank runs--Feds make $200 Billion more in CASH (bills/coins) available to banks so they can have enough on hand for all the withdrawals;
4)Feds looking for a way to PREVENT the Excess/Extra CASH that we will withdraw, from staying in circulation (because the Feds don't want the banks' reserve level to stay at this higher point long term. It will throw the U.S. monetary system for a loop.);


The additional circulating cash is ABSOLUTELY TRANSPARENT TO THE MONEY SYSTEM/SUPPLY because it is counted in M1 as DEPOSITS until you get it in hand at which time it is counted as M1 (note the similarity here) as circulating cash. It does NOT CHANGE the MONEY SUPPLY as it moves from one component to another as BOTH components are added to get money supply (along with others)


5) Feds already discussing using the old money along with the new to make up this $200 billion. Even if the old money is due for "turn in." Ragged; wornout.

SO??? Looks like a reasonably economical move to ME.

So, what do we have now?
If "YOU" were the Feds and knew that you had this Y2K money issue ahead of you, wouldn't you do something like all the above?
You might ask: "What does new funny money have to do with it?" Well, if the NEW money that is entering the market (being taken out in cash for 2000 preparations) looks just like the old money that was already in circulation, how could you "monitor" how much NEW money is still out?...and Where it is?...and how and where it is being circulated?
Sure would be easy if the NEW MONEY looked different than the old! We (the Feds being in charge of this) could actually SEE the difference. And it sure would be easy if the NEW MONEY had some way we (Feds) could actually DETECT it when we CAN'T see it (just in case we need to know where its all being hoarded so we can get it back out of circulation.)
When the new "funny looking" bills were first put into circulation the reason given by the government for the new "BIG" look was: "IT WILL MAKE IT EASIER TO DETECT---counterfeits." (Also make it harder to counterfeit.) The reason given for the new "state" coins was (paraphrased): "To honor each state with its own coin." In other words: TO GIVE IDENTITY TO THE INDIVIDUAL COINS.

Sorry, but what might your point be?? You haven't quite provided any evidence that the "new money" is detectable at a distance, and who cares whether it is old or new legal tender??

[The federal government likes to "ease things on us" so we don't know what the real reasons are. You know all those Interstate highway markers every two-tenths of a mile and two on each off-and on-ramp? The "reason" is for our safety, so we can call in an accident and be more accurate. RIGHT? That's what the government wants us to all think. The real reason is that they are convoy markers--position markers for out-of-town drivers (gov) here to help us. But that's okay. Know those "Tourists tune to A.M. 1610" signs (look like the Interstate signs) that started showing up along with the Interstate signs? How many tourists do you think visit Spring Hill, Tennessee? The only thing there (and I mean the ONLY thing) is the Saturn plant.
[And we ALL know that the Saturn Plant is NOT a tourist destination. Or was that some OTHER litle auto plant that has the anual many thousands of attendees picnic?]

And there's a "Tourist tune to sign" right in the middle of that little tiny, tiny town. Know those bright greenish/yellow (peagreen) state DOT (Dept. Of Transportation) trucks that cruise the interstates? And on the markings it says "Event Response Unit"...what event? We've been told by the State of Tennessee (TDOT)that they are there to assist motorists...and they do that right now. But they also have equipment on them that can scoot up under a car and actually lift it off the road and onto the side, getting it out of the way so as to not block up the traffic. So, we hear a lot of misinformation right now from the government.] I have yet to see any of these new coins except Quarters and as far as I can recall, all from New Jersey (but then, I'm not in a habit of looking at my Quarters real close!). I have not seen a new Tennessee Quarter and I live in Tennessee. Guess the plan was to issue the state coins to other states except that which is on the coin itself. ??)

Gee you feel left out that you don't have your own quarter yet?? Wait until the full 50 month program is run and you will see yours.
I would continue but your lack of even BASIC research on how coins get issued, and other issues makes it pointless.



I WILL however retract what I said about buying the urban myths at the top of my answer.

It is apparent that instead of buying into them you are helping to invent and promulgate them.

Night train

-- jes an ol footballer (nighttr@in.lane), November 05, 1999.

Tags, tags, my kingdom for autoreset on tags! CLEANUP AFTER YOURSELVES, FOLKS!

-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), November 05, 1999.
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