I have tried over the last year to warn people. Now here we are in November. I had the occasion to speak with a lady who goes to my church, and she asked what I thought about y2k. Since we were in a crowded room, I tried to be brief - told her I thought we could expect some disruptions and that she really should store some food and water for a few weeks at least. She looked shocked! And then said, well, I just don't have room for it. But you're just a few blocks away, and I know the kind of Christian person you are, you wouldn't turn us away if we needed something!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I almost fell on the floor. Then I really got angry. This is the way the people in our country have been conditioned to think - "someone else will take care of me". It's bad enough I have my family saying things like this, but this was the last straw for me. I WILL NOT WARN ANOTHER PERSON. We are just too close to rollover, so they'll be sure to remember. I am still angry that this person did this to me - she put me on the spot, and in front of a room full of people, who will probably also remember. At this point, I just intend to worry about my immediate family. Just thought I would share this so it doesn't happen to you!

-- Scarlett (creolady@aol.com), November 07, 1999

Answers

move NOW Scarlett! That is like a death sentence when a whole room full know about your stocks!

-- saying nothing (horrified@laying.low), November 07, 1999.

As Scary Gary likes to say:

They won't prepare, but they WILL remember.

And you can BET that if you turn them away, they'll go straight to THEIR friends and say, "I know these people who have LOTS of stuff. Let's go take it away from them..."

Got guns? Ammo?

54 days.

-- Dennis (djolson@pressenter.com), November 07, 1999.

Scarlett,

We have several neighbors who say the same thing.

You can respond with... "You're welcome to come over to my house... but bring your own food. My family eats our food first, and I won't jepordize their lives for your lack of foresight."

That said... stock "extra" beans 'n rice anyway.

Do like one idea of having small "gift" handout bags of food for those who refuse to care for themselves. You also might want to make copies of town maps and when you know where the shelters are, mark an "X" and offer copies with the handout.

Another thought is to get a big cast iron dutch oven and keep the "community" soup pot going. Remember the story about stone soup?

We're all going to be "tested" on how human and humane we are.

Remember you karma... and "what's important."

It's not always about... "survival" at any cost.

Good luck.

Diane

(And do take that lady aside and tell her how angry you were).

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), November 07, 1999.

Yes, this is one end-game move (see below at 'You don't want to be' thread. ) i'd very much like a discussion of other end game moves.

-- seraphima (seraphima@aol.com), November 07, 1999.

Scarlett, now is the time to be quiet.

-- Linda A. (adahi@muhlon.com), November 07, 1999.

If she doesn't have room for a few cans those kitchen cupboards must be awfully stocked as a norm.

Don't panic. It's unlikely she'll come your way but if she should have a small little "kit" as your show of "Christianity" and end it there. A little bag with a book of matches, a tea light candle, a baggie of some lentils, and a few tea bags. (Or something similiar.) Just be sure you don't ever show or hand out sealed boxes, cans, or packages. You need to always make it appear that you've one large bag as your supplies, and you've shared a bit with someone in crises. And in her case be sure you add some kind of "positive" Bible quote in the "kit." Be very deeply religious. Stand on the porch in a sober fashion, hold her hands, and nod solemnly about "these times."

I doubt you'll see her. I think you'll find her making room somewhere for a few items or she wouldn't have asked. Her mind is chewing it all over. Someone else in her life must be on the subject because she seems to have been verifying information she had heard with you.

-- Paula (chowbabe@pacbell.net), November 07, 1999.

Anyone who says that they don't have the room for preparations, even short term ones, is full of crap. There are plenty of places to store stuff. Under the bed comes to mind, as does inside pieces of furniture. All kinds of places are available, especially if one jettisons some of the crap that we all accumulate.

I personally have some charity supplies set aside. When they are gone, that's it. I could use extra hands to help stand guard, etc, but I don't know anyone who is worth a crap, and can trust. Sad times indeed.

-- Bill (billclo@msgbox.com), November 07, 1999.

Bwahahahhahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!

Scarlett,

You know what is funny? How angry you must be to hear someone talking like that in church. You know, expecting Christians to be caring, giving and sacrificial.

Hey, you remember a little story about a guy named JESUS who walked out into the big bad world of ancient times with NOTHING in his pockets. No money, no food, raggy clothes and a beaten up pair of sandals. THAT GUY was EXPECTING the good LORD to provide for his needs, because you see, HE HAD FAITH.

Where is yours?.

I know you won't see it but there is a two ton chunk of irony that just fell squarely on your head.

-- (anon@anon.com), November 07, 1999.

PS: What is the worst that can happen? You'll die doing the right thing and go to Heaven.

-- (anon@anon.com), November 07, 1999.

Since this incident happened at church, you may want to respond to her with a story from the New Testament. Review with her the parable of the Ten Virgins (Matthew 25:1-13). Remind her that they were all "followers" who were waiting with their lamps for the bridegroom to appear. But, half were wise and half were foolish. The wise had filled their lamps with oil and the foolish had not.

The significance of the oil is subject to different interpretations, each of which may be correct. To many, the oil is the virgin's spiritual worthiness. However, another thought I will suggest to you is that the oil is the virgin's mental and physical preparedness for the event soon to unfold. When the cry went out to the virgins to go out and meet the bridegroom, the wise trimmed their lamps. (They had made the necessary preparations see them through the night of darkness before the bridegroom arrived.) The foolish, on the other hand, had not made the proper preparations and therefore were not prepared to use their oil (preparations). When they ask the wise virgins to share their oil; what was the response? The wise virgins refused. I think that is significant. Wouldn't you generally think that sharing with those who are without is the Christian thing to do? Obviously not this time. Perhaps, your friend will find a correlation between your faithfulness and her sloth. Help her see it is important to be ready both spiritually and with the necessities to sustain one during the tribulation (darkness) before the bridegroom comes.

Just a thought

TH

-- Teague Harper (tharper@cyberhighway.net), November 07, 1999.

...personally, if that ridiculous excuse of an adult had said that to me, i would have asked her if she preferred buckshot or slugs when she crossed over onto my property after a big crash. I am a spiritual person, but i'm not a "turn the other cheek" type d00d. nope. that lady just THREATENED you with theft at a minimum, in church! before i moved from atlanta, i made the rounds of neighbors, givin them all the "rap". one drunk bubba said, well, he got a gun and he was jiss gonna hunt and take what he needed. I told him to not even leave his house if i was still in the neighborhood because i woukld be watching him from then on.and he KNEW he was a drunk bubba and i ain't. every neighborhood has at least family of shouldn't be allowed to breed folks. this is just reality. I tend to be severely non diplomatic about things. I give folks all a chance, I'm honest with them, but I don't give em any wiggle room on that score. what i have is hard earned and aquired, and I'm not just giving it away willy nilly to some slob who sat on their butt watching oprah. screw em. refugees get a polite "move along, please, here's a drink of water, goodbye" that's it. don't have a warehouse, just enough prudent stocks to carry me through an entire gardening season. thas it. on severe rations, a bit more, and I add to it every chance. I have gotten ONE pizza this year. have been to the movies ONCE. have a 5$ black and white tv, sold the 2 colors I had. you get the picture, stockpiling on a severe budget. sacrafice. doing without "normal' type american "things". It's hard for everyone doing this, don't be ashamed of what you are doing to prepare, it's a mutha. and hang on to what ya got. darwin awards 2000

do you know where your local predators are?

-- zog (zzoggy@yahoo.com), November 07, 1999.

God bless the child that's got his own...

-- Mabel Dodge (cynical@me.net), November 07, 1999.

The first obligation, is to keep yourself alive. However, that being done, then what? If the whole point of surviving, is simply more survival, then pardon me for being thick, but I fail to see any point at all.

If we are simply maintaining biomechanical functioning, we are no more human than our car or the lawnmower.

I guess that's just a wordy way of saying, I second Diane's idea. Saying that my first obligation, is to my immediate loved ones, is not the same as saying that I have no obligation, to the rest of the world.

Anon's "two ton chunk of irony" strikes home, regardless of what faith, or lack thereof, you are.

-- Bokonon (bok0non@my-Deja.com), November 07, 1999.

Anon:

Somehow, comparing a 'regular' person to the SON OF GOD (who KNEW that his Father would help, and who's whole purpose in life was to PROVE that God was real) is not a valid comparison. Does that mean that if I were to do as Jesus did, and did it EXACTLY right, that I could expect CRUCIFIXION as my reward...?

Hmmm...?

-- Dennis (djolson@pressenter.com), November 07, 1999.

Getting angry and mad is being human, feeling regretful for it and asking forgiveness is being christian.

-- Carol (glear@usa.net), November 07, 1999.

good response diane.

scarlett we aren't responsible for "filling the lamps of the other five virgins". however, i know how this appears intolerant and uncaring in this crazy society of ours. i think diane is right in that you should tell this person she is being rather unloving herself to assume that you are to be responsible for her especially when her priorities are obviously to live for the here and now--while you are spending your hard earned money and effort for the future. you can't possibly prepare for all of those like her that refuse to be "wise" and heed God's call. actually when i told my former significant other this--he finally got scared and prepared for himself.

i do have two concerns: i have heard people share that god has told them as long as they share, he will replenish their supplies. i don't know what to think about that for myself because i haven't heard it. what i do "know" is that god isn't going to tell me what to do until the time comes. i also don't have enough money to create handout bags--however if someone wants to share what we are eating, that may be a possibility. i will just have to see what happens. i do have a gun but hope not to use it on folks who are in need.

-- tt (cuddluppy@yahoo.com), November 07, 1999.

One thing to be wary of is burning ones own bridges. I read a letter someone had written that Gary North posted. It read there was a power outage, and to the persons horror, the man across the street was knocking on everyones' door giving power outage updates. The writer was aghast and vowed to flee to a "bug out." What he failed to notice was that the man across the street was very nice, running and fussing all about to each door, trying to be of some service to his neighbors in the crises.

Some of those people are going to be the ones with the "in" to some fresh meat or a valued item. They will be open and generous with those they perceive to be "good neighbors caught also in the crises."

What I think one needs to avoid is the full outright rescue or the delaying of anyone who ought to be going with the herd movement.

A number of people are going to be helpful in odd ways both those who prepared and those who did not. For instance I rescued some kittens a few days old that had been left on a neighbors doorstep. This means I have an unopened bag of large baby diapers and an unopened bottle of baby vitamins left over from the experience. (The diapers line a tiny cat carrier.) I haven't any need to "hoard" these items if someone fitting that need profile is in crises. They aren't items in my "stash."

I already had to help someone with cat food. The knock on the door has already happened to me though not related to Y2K.

In some cases I think one will find an inch of help will go a mile and it'll come back a thousand fold.

I've talked at great length with a number of people. The biggest danger concluded on was that show off's will "get it." And a number of people who prepared will be showing off. The scene will be Daisy smiling brightly, looking fantastic, chiper and cheery with canned goods glittering in the sun, a big show for all to see! If Daisy helps it'll be with a bounce in her step and her comfy cozy set up on display in the background. The "unlucky" invited in to witness how "smart" she was or is. Or Larry taking out his trash bag bursting with the wrappings of wonderful food items. A little discretion and humble pie will go a long way.

Remember, other events happened that you did not prepare for. What goes around comes around. We all naysay, we all deny, but we just don't do it on the same things. I prepared for El Nino and I prepared for Y2K but I was lousy on the subject of earthquakes, and may have a neighbor who pictured me coming in through his or her windows "desperate."

I was reading one article some time back about a man back east who vowed he just knew, just knew, he'd be feeding a lot of hungry children because his neighbors were unprepared! This being printed in his local paper. That is so much righteousness there is a set of odds his neighbors would rather die than have HIM feeding their children. Pride goeth before a fall. Will he be looted? Odds are not. He prepared to feed all his neighbors children RIGHTEOUSLY. He'll be right out there "saving" them with his "I told you so!" I suspect his neighbors will be pleading, "Please don't help us, ooh please don't help us. Go away!" Not a knock will come on his door as if he had the plague. Not one person is going to sign up to see that smug and righteous self satisfaction on his face. He is just dying to see those neighbors arrive for "help" and they know it.

-- Paula (chowbabe@pacbell.net), November 07, 1999.

I've said it before, and it's really very simple.

They come to the door and ask? Fine, I got, but no handouts. Instead, everybody works. I am the boss.

Assignments will be made. Some will be assigned to find and bring and chop wood. Bring it to ME. Some will be assigned to chop into icy ponds and carry ice or water to ME. Some will be assigned to scrounge additional food. Some will be assigned to communicate with people in the next development. Some will be assigned to stand outside in the code and watch who goes where. Everybody works except the too young and the too old. The too young? Parents work for them. Too old? I can be charitable, but will want contracts, and payment by cash or check, which just might be useful someday.

No handouts, of course. Assistance, absolutely. But everybody works. Surely they will understand, being fair Christian people.

-- Scarecrow (Somewhere@over.rainbow), November 07, 1999.

There is a one-phrase-fits-all response to this situation.

"God helps those that help themselves"

Remember it, have it handy on the tip of your toungue. Works every time.

-- Dolma Lhamo (I'm@nonymous.now), November 07, 1999.

Scarlett,

Here's what you do next time should this some up between now and January. You make up a list of common, CHEAP items that someone could store, and the prices ... i.e. 25 pounds pinto beans - $8 at XYZ store, 20 lbs. of rice, $__ at Sam's Club. Then very very sweetly, you give it to the person and say, I know JUST what you mean, so many people don't have space. But I have a little room in my shed/barn/backyard where I could fill a trash barrel full of food for you ($10 at Lowes). So if you want me to store some, just get a check to me by (date). Otherwise I'm afraid I won't be able to help, and I don't have the resources to buy for anyone but me and mine. And if they say "oh, I can't afford that!" You say a) well why don't you make it your Christmas gift to your family or b) you could have a garage sale and earn $50 or so or c) you could get a part time job or d) I have some fence building/wood chopping, etc. you could do to earn it or ..... you get the drift.

This could get around the issue of "I have no space to store" and direct it back to what the real issue is ... "I'm to cheap to buy insurance, I want to play now and have fun. I want YOU to absorb the risk and take care of me later." A sincere person would say, 'that's a great offer - I'll write you the check right now.' A deadbeat would just come up with more excuses.

If the person still doesn't "get it" - ask them if their insurance company pays claims if they don't pay their premiums.

IMO, this kind of behavior gives purported Christians (like her) a bad name. My grandparents would be humiliated to accept charity for something they could have done for themselves.

-- (wellshut@mymouth.com), November 07, 1999.

Scarlett, I was in a similar situation. I told 5 neighbors earlier this year that I was preparing, and only 1 of them was interested. I expect the others will remember and visit me if TSHTF. I'd rather not get in a shootout with neighbors, but I also don't want to go hungry because of their neglect. So, I have set aside some charity food just in case, and then I plan to "run out" and have to "go look for more food". See ya later, folks. I stored some food early with my sister, who GI'd before I did and was quiet about it. We can take that to our parents' house if need be.

It's not nice to be sneaky. *sigh*

-- Margaret J (janssm@aol.com), November 07, 1999.

Thanks to all of you for your excellent input!

I am all for helping those in need; however, I tend to adhere more to the tale of the 10 virgins. I will probably have some set aside for those in need, as much as I can afford anyway. I think what made me so angry was her attitude more than anything. It was as though she was saying "I don't want to be bothered, would you do it for me?" I'd like to mention that I have two children depending on me, also. So, I think I'll just be quiet between now and January 1st. Good luck to you all! :-)

-- Scarlett (creolady@aol.com), November 07, 1999.

To Paula: you said "Just be sure you don't ever show or hand out sealed boxes, cans, or packages. You need to always make it appear that you've one large bag as your supplies, and you've shared a bit with someone in crises."

Out of this entire thread - this is the one statement that jolted me. So much for all the beans I vacuum-sealed for "handouts". They now go into out BO bags - You may very well have saved my preps for my family with your eye-opening statement. Thank you.

-- mom (mom@mom.com), November 07, 1999.

Scarlett:

You're quite on target with observance of that attitude. There are several nosy DGIs at work who ask probing questions about my preparations. They are doing nothing at all, so I feel it's none of their business about what I have done. However, I believe it's wrong to lie, so I try to change the subject or walk away. One young man says there's nothing he can do. He'll most likely visit me after TSHTF.

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), November 07, 1999.

mom:

Good thought. And if you're wise, you won't let them inside your house to see your supplies. Loose lips steal preps.

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), November 07, 1999.

Scarlett, your concern is quite justified, and the suggestions/ comments you've recieved run the gauntlet of what to do. All valid depending on your particular situation.

The only thing I'd like to add is the possibility of you talking to your Pastor/Priest 1x1 and express your concerns/issues with them and maybe even organizing a last-minute (literally!) Church pantry or some such event. At the very least express your concern to your Pastor/ Priest about being "outed" in church and how uncomfortable it made you feel.

You shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable in church..........

-- Tuan (Stryder X6@aol.com), November 08, 1999.

There is so much unintended irony in these posts...amazing! I'll point out that the Parable of the Ten Virgins was the Scripture reading in every Roman Catholic church on earth yesterday: if they went, one billion Catholics heard it. And they heard, too, during the homily, that the verse is about being spiritually prepared, for "you know not the day or the hour." We who call ourselves followers of Christ are called to trust Him in EVERYTHING. Do not worry! (stepping away from the pulpit now)...to the thread initiator: remember: there are NO coincidences in this life--God was confronting you, through your interlocuter, in front of the congregation for a reason. Think on it.

-- Spidey (in@jam.wow), November 08, 1999.

On the other hand I got a phone call about a week ago from a church friend who wants me to make a list for her. She wants to know what to store for a week for two people. I like the Red Cross pamphlet "Food and Water in an Emergency" plus I have access to a liquid parrafin candle thing for $5 that I will sell late preparers. It is great in a power outage, not to read by, but to keep the bogeyman at bay.

Also I recommend a little item for kids: keychain squeeze lights. They don't get left on and require new batteries every morning. If the kids are old enough not to get choked on a necklace put the lights on a string around their necks. Gives them a lot of comfort when they are away from the kerosene lamp or need a really bright spotlight.

We live on a farm adjacent to the highway and I told my husband a long time ago that if we had to slaughter a beef and people kept coming by to eat we might as well be prepared to slaughter beeves until they were gone. I will not go to war against my neighbors.

On the third hand I have a cache that is really hardcore hidden in an empty space behind a wall. You know, beans and bleach kinds of stuff.

Becky

-- Becky (rmbolte@wvadventures.net), November 08, 1999.

Scarlett and anyone else in this same situation:

I ran into this when I lived in earthquake country. Having been through a couple of good-sized earthquakes already in my lifetime, I always made sure I had food and water in an accessible place "just in case". My neighbors always laughed and told me they didn't have time for such nonsense, and they'd come to my house if they needed to. I laughed, too--assuming (fool!) that they were just kidding. Who wouldn't take something like an earthquake seriously? You see them-- and their devastating effects--all over the world, and even our local government did its best to get people to prepare an earthquake kit...but then we actually had an earthquake. Thank God it wasn't so devastating that supplies were cut off for more than one morning, because guess who showed up in my yard in various stages of dress? All of my neighbors, of course! No one wanted to go into their homes with all of the aftershocks going on, so they came over for breakfast! So I'm here to tell you that when it's convenient, people have no shame. What I had carefully planned to last my (then) family of 4 for 3 - 4 days was devoured by my neighbors in about 4 hours.

My advice to you is to assume that they'll be coming. Keep anything you buy for yourself separate and safe. I've learned my lesson. I've put aside a few things for anyone who comes to visit--just in case-- but I've also told everyone I know that I don't really have the funds to prep for them (the truth). Therefore, they shouldn't expect ME to be prepared for THEM. I'm having a hard enough time doing it for my own family! (BTW, I moved long ago, and no longer live next to leeches. I think that may help, too!)

-- agent00 (gotsmart@smarter.com), November 08, 1999.

Scarlett, you have already made a serious and possibly fatal mistake by revealing your situation to confirmed DGIs. As with any person, if they are desperate enough, they will not hesistate to kill you and your family and take what you have so that they will survive. Your best advice would be to bug out NOW while you still can. Failing that, do NOT continue to address the issue with anyone. It will only make things worse, and put you and your family in even more danger. It is not your responsibility to prepare for others who will not, especially if it puts your family at risk. If you give them ANYTHING at all, they will remember and they will return WITH MORE PEOPLE.

Say nothing, lay low, have a weapon and be prepared to use it when it becomes necessary. With any luck, she'll be dead before she ever has a chance to find you and take what you have.

-- (its@coming.soon), November 08, 1999.

Scarlett--The lady layed a guilt trip on you: "I know the kind of Christian person you are, you wouldn't turn us away if we needed something!" I would have turned the tables around and used quotes from the Bible as an object lesson. Though this isn't in the Bible, I would have said to her in a sweet way, "the Lord takes care of those tho take care of themselves, and I have only prepared for myself and family." "If know what kind of Christian you are, and don't you think the Lord expects you to take care of yourself and own too?" and, "I understand that there will be BIG WHITE BUSES in town that will take people like you to the soup lines." If that doesn't get her buitt in gear I don't know what will. Don't get mad Scarlett, have some fun with these sheeple.

-- bardou (bardou@baloney.com), November 08, 1999.

This is a very perplexing dilema. It is almost a literal 'life boat' scenario moral choice kind of thing. What to do?

First, you warned them so they are totaly responsible for themselves from that point onward. If they choose not to prepare then that is their choice and their future. If you do not give them anything it is not a matter of moral failure on your part but on theirs.

Second, you have prepared for your family. Your family comes first always, especially the children. You have prepared for a certain amount of time without 'grocery stores'. There is no excess for others in that plan until after the stores reopen, before your supplies run out. It is important to recognize that what you have set aside for your family is not 'available' to others unless you do not need it.

They should always pay for what they get. No IOU's. Cash. Why? Because these folks are supposed to be 'adults' who work and provide for themselves. If they did not provide for themselves before hand then they should do the minimum and pay for what they get from you afterhand. Simple.

Fourth, people are selfish and self centered. Never underestimate the capacity to lie, cheat or steal. They will justify these things based on their anger at you for not 'sharing'. They will do despicable things to you (or at least attempt to do them) and be fully justified in their own eyes. They will not listen to reason. They will not leave you alone. If they are vile people they will try to harm you as a means of robbery. You had better find a way to hide what you have or be able to 'leave Dodge' with it all in a heartbeat should the signs of breakdown begin to appear in their eyes.

Your 'church lady' isn't any different than your 'unchurched' neighbors. See above. In fact I would be more leary of people who are supposed to have or claim to have religious convictions who behave in a corrupt fashion than compared to 'worldly' people who are pretty obvious.

Yeah, you probably should have some goods to give out to others, but you have got to watch what you sow. If word gets out that you are giving food away for free then you will develop a crowd in front of your home. The people you can't help will literally tear your house down or burn it down in anger toward you for having the gall to not feed them for free as well. This is one of the reasons that relief workers come back discourage from helping in emergency situations. Many times they find out what people will do in desperation. Its not pretty. Its better to be 'away' in a quiet place if at all possible. Otherwise you may face very unpleasant situations.

-- ..- (dit@dot.dash), November 08, 1999.

Thanks again to all of you for sharing your wisdom. This is definitely a two-edged sword, which we will probably all face - how much do we help others? I guess I won't know until the time comes. We do have a bug-out plan though. The more I see, the sooner I want to bug out. I cannot risk the lives of my children to save the lives of others - I guess this is part of the "mother instinct". Good luck everyone, and thanks again.

-- Scarlett (creolady@aol.com), November 08, 1999.

Hey Pro -

Got another keeper for the vault for ya:

"Say nothing, lay low, have a weapon and be prepared to use it when it becomes necessary. With any luck, she'll be dead before she ever has a chance to find you and take what you have.

-- (its@coming.soon), November 08, 1999. "

-- Johnny Canuck (j_canuck@hotmail.com), November 08, 1999.

Scarlett,

The key differences between this potential disaster and "regular" natural disasters, is that this one can be planned for and anticipated, which they are choosing not to do. And natural disasters usually are localized, therefore help can come from other sources.

These people can choose not to believe it but they have been warned ahead of time that this one is definitely coming (no surprise) and that it may be so systemic that everyone is affected.

If they choose not to prepare having been informed of the danger, you have no moral obligation to do anything. If you need a biblical justification for your actions, think Noah as in:

"I'm sorry but I'm not preparing for neighbors and others, just my immediate family. After all (smile) Noah wasn't commanded to put the whole village in his ark."

-- (wellshut@mymouth.com), November 09, 1999.

the weak will perish,leaving the world no poorer.Noah did not hate those outside the arc,standing in the rain.Noah did let the others die,it was for the good of the species.

-- hopeful (doomer@home.waiting), November 09, 1999.