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05:38 PM ET 11/09/99

Baptists Vote on Wifely Submission

By MICHELLE KOIDIN=

Associated Press Writer=

EL PASO, Texas (AP) _ Texas' Southern Baptists on Tuesday repudiated the denomination's call for women to ``submit graciously'' to their husbands.

The Baptist General Convention of Texas is the largest state organization (2.7 million members) within the nation's 15.7 million-member Southern Baptist Convention and sends it millions of dollars each year. But the state organization is more moderate than the national one.

It is the first state affiliate of the Southern Baptist Convention to reject the ``submit graciously'' stance.

``The Bible doesn't teach that the husband is the general and the wife is a private, but yet that's how it gets interpreted,'' said the Rev. Charles Wade, the executive director of the Texas group.

All but a couple dozen among about 2,200 delegates to the Texas group's annual meeting voted in favor of affirming the Baptist Faith and Message Statement of 1963 _ without an amendment added in 1998.

The amendment marked the first change in the statement of beliefs by the Southern Baptists in 35 years. It defines marriage exclusively in heterosexual terms and says that husbands and wives, while equal before God, have different roles.

``A wife is to submit graciously to the servant leadership of her husband, even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ,'' it says.

During a brief debate on the proposal, only two representatives spoke in favor of following the national group's lead. Paul Taylor, representing a church in Mauriceville, said he believed the amendment ``speaks to the family.''

However, the Rev. Clyde Glazener, the newly elected president of the Texas organization, and Wade had urged Texans to ignore the amendment.

``There's a partnership in Christian marriage,'' Wade said before the debate. ``We're trying to say in our day any attempt to put women `in their place' or somehow limit the contribution that women might have in church goes against the whole spirit of Christ.''

Leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention denounced the decision and noted that the ``submit graciously'' amendment had passed with overwhelming support. They said it is little more than a paraphrase of the apostle Paul's teachings.

R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., called the vote ``an intentional rejection of a clear teaching of the Bible.''

``This is another lamentable sign of the determination of some Texas Baptist leaders to alienate Texas Baptists from the Southern Baptist Convention,'' he said.

-- Cherri (sams@brigadoon.com), November 10, 1999

Answers

Guess you don't have to "do the nasty" anymore, Cherri.

-- (there'sOT@andthere's.OT), November 10, 1999.

This bible passage is so misunderstood and misrepresented.

It was written by Paul. At the time he wrote it, women were considered possessions, along with livestock and other consumer goods.

Paul's message was to elevate women, not beat them down.

-- Pete (pberry1_98@yahoo.com), November 10, 1999.

Lessee now, Cherri. We might assume that, since you posted this article, you must have some opinion about it. Just what might your opinion be, Cherri? Waiting...

-- (TrollPatrol@don't.com), November 10, 1999.

DELETE THIS, please! It is not even remotely connected with the theme of this forum. This is an inexcusable waste of forum bandwidth.

-- cody (cody@y2ksurvive.com), November 10, 1999.

Anyone stupid enough to be a bible-thumper should have no problem with this.

-- A (A@AisA.com), November 10, 1999.

I thought is was about the rollover.

-- Earl (earl.shuholm@worldnet.att.net), November 10, 1999.

Hahahahahaha! I gettit! Wives have to Rollover now! Hahahahahahahahah

-- wife no strife (get@life.rife), November 10, 1999.

such as "rollover, wives"?

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), November 10, 1999.

Yes it's OT, but as long as it's here -

Paul was not trying to elevate women. The Bible passage in question tells wives to obey their husbands and slave to obey their masters - because Paul believed that the second coming of Christ was at hand, and in the meantime there is no point putting your effort into improving your worldly position or looking for justice in this world.

Since Christ did not return on the schedule that the early Christians expected, later Christians have the problem of dealing with all of Paul's verbiage. They just keep trying to reinterpret it so it makes sense. But IT JUST DOESN'T.

-- secular humanist (skeptical@bible.reader), November 10, 1999.

{{THUMP}} {{THUMP}}

(The sound of thousands of Texas Baptist wives tossing their knee pads into the trash can.)

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 10, 1999.

I am a Christian wife, and as Christ died for the Church so must a husband die for his wife (sacrifice) We (wives) are a gift for our husbands. Our husbands are to treat us as the most precious gift ever to have received. A wife can easily submit to that. :-) When both parties truly apply their rolls, the marriage is like heaven. It really does work.

-- wife (What@bout.hubby), November 10, 1999.

Please delete this thread. Discuss this somewhere else folks.

-- dozerdoctor (dozerdoc@yahoo.com), November 10, 1999.

wife: Do you like to mudwrestle? Uhhh, I mean, for your husband, of course.

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), November 10, 1999.

I'm with you KOS, oddly enough. Hey folks lighten up, she said OT. Southern Baptist Texans are not the only people who do not think that wifely submission is the way to run a railroad. I can assure you I have heard almost every biblical interpretation around. Married couples for years have been looking into their hearts and their religious beliefs to deal with this issue. Some are successful, others not. As a former wife of a "fundy", I vote with the Texans.

-- Nancy (wellsnl@hotmail.com), November 11, 1999.

Isn't it difficult enough to keep up with the on-topic posts these days? Please delete.

Joe

-- Joe (paraflyr@cybernet1.com), November 11, 1999.

this is OT right? but too tempting to let pass. i love how non- believers or non-skeptical believers (those who believe the bible is mythology or a nice story but not literal and not gods word) love to pick out this issue as a sign of the flaws of christianity. if you ain't part of it--trust me you won't get it. christianity is for people who are "reborn" and who see things much differently than those who aren't because of the spritual eyes god gives you as he transforms you--which takes time. the bible is love letters to US who are reborn. you don't read other people's mail do you?

just as any good father parents his new baby/child, as our heavenly father, god "reparents" us and one of the major lessons he gets across is obedience and submission. first to god, then to the authorities he places over us (except on issues where they break the laws/principles of god, we can refuse to obey), then within the family structure. (older folks, younger folks, kids, parents, couples). to keep order, to model heavenly relationships, to protect us, build our character--to get us ready for heaven. remember heaven ain't gonna be no democracy--it is a total dictatorship. but what a dictator!

i am a woman and i have no problem with this concept--in the way it is truly intended versus the way the "non-belivers" or "skeptics" interpret it. first of all submission is active--you don't have to be a doormat. people often leave out paul's mandate to the husband which is actually much more than the wife's. what is interesting is the words (i believe in ephesians) that are used in the original greek present an interesting word picture. i believe the word used in relationship to the husband's submission is similar to that of putting the wife on a pedestal. the wife's word in the verses where this is described means to bow to the husband. so picture it--the wife is standing on a pedestal and bowing low, the husband is looking up to the wife on the pedestal--they would meet eye to eye. but yet their positions also show their reverence for one another-- differently than simply standing eye to eye.

i guess the texas southern baptists must be doing this as part of voting on their church doctrines. if this is separating baptists, then so be it. because when we pick and choose doctrines to believe or not believe when they are clearly stated in the bible (i am not talking about grey areas but what part of "submission" don't you understand?) its sort of like using a rusty bucket or a bucket i have used for target practice to carry water. doesn't get you very far before your water runs out and you got nothing to drink.

amen.

-- tt (cuddluppy@yahoo.com), November 11, 1999.

oh yeah, i got carried away---DELETE!!

-- tt (cuddluppy@yahoo.com), November 11, 1999.

My husband tried that crap the first week we were married. Didn't work then and won't work now!! But we are still married and still happy! (or is it that we are so old we are eaten up with inertia??)

Taz

-- Taz (Taz@aol.com), November 11, 1999.

Discipline, folks. Cherri is a hit and run troll, prominent among those who get their jollies stirring the pot on this forum. What better way than to start yet another controversial religious thread. If you think Cherri actually has any interest whatsoever in this article other than to foment conflict, think again.

Cherri, it's easy enough to prove me wrong. Return to this thread that you started (presumably because it is of interest to you :-D)and post your considered opinion of this article. Waiting...

-- (TrollPatrol@don't.com), November 11, 1999.

Taz,

"My husband tried that crap the first week we were married."

It's not too difficult to see who's the big cheese in your home.

-- TM (mercier7@pdnt.com), November 11, 1999.

TrollPatrol: In defense of Cherri (sort of), I would not doubt for a moment, ditsy as she is, that she may have completely forgotten about ever starting this thread. She might even look at the title and think, "What a silly thread title, why would someone post something like that?"

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), November 11, 1999.

Remember, when you mudwrestle the KOS, to add LOTS of salt to the mud, and to wear your genuine porcupine suit!

-- MinnesotaSmith (y2ksafeminnesota@hotmail.com), June 22, 2000.