OK, the subject line is a trawl, but it's getting LOUD in here. This is a serious question both for those like me who SOGI (but don't have multi-year stocks or self sufficient systems) and for doomers who have made serious preparations. Note that I actually don't think that anything big WILL happen, this is mostly for the benefit of doomers who are wondering how Joe Blow will react if they are right. Joe hasn't thought this through yet, but I have, and here's what I've decided.

First, I'm not a sociopath, and I'm NOT happy with the thought of TEOTWAWKI - I am very content with my life the way it is. I am a resonable, gentle, well educated, deferential man. I'm even friendly and courteous to call centre staff when their company screws up my records, and I take the time to be polite and chatty with homeless magazine salespeople. I am a latter day Saint. ( ;) )

But I "only" have a two week stock. I'm betting on a BITR plus human herd response problems, but I've also thought about what I will do if I am wrong and the TEOTWAWKI people are right, and here's what I currently think.

If the power or TV go off around 1/1/1900, I intend to immediately begin looting my local supermarket. If heating fuel, petrol distribution or the phones go off, I'll keep an eye on the supermarket and loot it if Joe Blow (or other GI/SOGI people) starts doing so first. I won't do it out of panic, it'll be a well thought through and reasoned response. I'll be the first to point out that this is irresponsible and utterly selfish, and the power might come back on five minutes after me and Joe clean it out. I've thought it through, and I'm not willing to take that gamble.

The next thought that occurs to me is that my stash is likely to last longer than my immediate DGI neighbours. In a TEOTWAWKI, do I share with them so that we all starve at the same time? No, I pretend to have nothing and try and beg food off of them. It's as simple as that. I'll be happy to help form a neighbourhood defence force, but my food goes into the mouth of me and my loved ones first. I like my neighbours, but I think - I THINK - I will be able to watch them starve while I have full cupboards. I admit I may be wrong on this one, and it's the thing I fear most about a TEOTWAWKI scenario. It's not something that I EVER want to find out.

So a few months down the line, most of my neighbourhood has starved and frozen, but I've made it through. Who do you think my new peer group is? Nice, prepared GI people? I don't think so, especially not in the UK. I think the Brave New World will be peopled mostly by the ruthless and the cruel. Frankly, if TEOTWAWKI comes, I don't think I'll make it even a few months, I'm just not nasty enough.

So here's the question for the doomers. If you're right - and I don't think you are, but I'm interested enough to ask - what do you think your chances are of holding onto your resources until summer 1900?

It seems to me that many of the doomers here are warm, compassionate people who are deeply concerned and caring. Sure, there are "Ha ha" doomers too, but I don't believe that most of those sort have really prepped. I'd hate to think of Africa and India finally arriving to take their long-deserved revenge and rape the West's resources, and finding a landscape ruled by prison inmates and rogue militart units. Yuk.

Doomers: please tell me that you've all got beans, chickens, compassion AND big guns. And that you won't hesitate shoot me on site - compassionately.

:\ <<< wryly: a wry smiley

-- Colin MacDonald (roborogerborg@yahoo.com), November 14, 1999

Answers

I know what you mean, colin. I am prepping. I know that others are aware of it...I haven't been advertising in the last 6 months, but as I said on another post, they don't forget. There have been remarks. I haven't been brave enough to tell them," I won't share with you, because you were too stupid to prepare...." If I thought it would motivate them to prep, I would.....It would only make them angry and I don't want angry folks looking for me when they are hungry...I'd prefer they come ask and I then RUN!

I am planning on more than a BITR, but less than TEOTWAWKI. I plan to hole up in my home as long as I can and then go to the base (I'm military affiliated)....I understand that they DO have plans in place, though they are loathe to discuss them...They are NOT for Y2K , but for any disaster of large proportions.

If that doesn't work, I will get in the car and we'll drive. I don't think we'll survive at that point. Not much of a plan, is it? Living overseas does present unique problems. Can't very well catch a plane home and I have no home or assets there anyway.

Well, not much of a help I'm afraid. As in the television series with the same name, if it goes bad, I figure they'll "Just Shoot Me." I'm a christian and I won't shoot back....couldn't anyway, they won't allow us to arm ourselves here.

-- Ynott (Ynott@incorruptible.com), November 14, 1999.

I am not sure if this whole discourse of yours is a joke and you are only trying to apall people but here is how you describe yourself "I am a resonable, gentle, well educated, deferential man. I'm even friendly and courteous to call centre staff when their company screws up my records, and I take the time to be polite and chatty with homeless magazine salespeople. I am a latter day Saint. ( ;) )"

With thoughts like you have been having with regards to looting yourself--I'd say you flatter yourself needlessly with your description and LDS folks probably feel ashamed that you have identified yourself as such. Most LDS folks are fine human beings that wouldn't toy with the idea of taking what isn't theirs.

You are a strange person that gets his kicks by sitting up in his ivory tower, thinking he is a prince and above all of those folks to whom he is "friendly" as if your presence in their lives (you smile at them and chat with them), is like a great light to them. As if you are blessing them in some way because they have met you.

I think Jesus described people such as yourselves as "whitewashed tombs" that look good on the outside but smell of death and decay inside. Look deeply inside yourself because it seems the only thing that keeps people like you even "looking respectable on the outside" is laws and expectations in society and that if anything disrupts the normal pressure that puts on you, you could become a savage animal. That is not true for many of us regardless of what you think--when God truly gets ahold of your soul--he regenerates it not to think that way.

Don't worry, there is someone greater than you who can protect us "doomers" in the event folks like you decide to try to prevail against us or take advantage of us. And that is God. Many of us are preparing because He has led us to do exactly as we have done. I can see him guiding in every aspect of my preparations to my initial list with timing and supplies and quantities that have been amazingly on target, to receiving free offers of help just in time on preparations that I had no idea how to do (such as putting pins in my doors/windows, putting up my solar lights), to specific people being put in my path to share information with, to finally, in these last days, HIS waking me almost every morning with a very clear impression of things I need to do that day that I had not even thought of. The bible proves over and over how God cares about the minutest details of our life and how he handles egotistical bullies such as yourself.

I hope you'll have a reawakening before this all begins.

-- tt (cuddluppy@yahoo.com), November 14, 1999.

I hope they shoot looters without mercy! It would remove scum like you from the post-Y2k gene pool.

-- Forgetit (booom@one.less), November 14, 1999.

Judge a tree by it's fruit.

-- Tom Beckner (tbeckner@xout.erols.com), November 14, 1999.

I see you live in a country that has very strict gun control.I personaly would not consider immersing myself into a crime mob without an equalizer(if your opponet has on riot gear make sure it's a head shot,first shot).The liability of being incarcerated during a societal breakdown outweighs picking over already picked over bare shelves.Quit being so chicken shit and buy some beans and rice.If it's been awile since you had the shit kicked out of you and you're not a full contact black belt(or soccer hooligan)you may be in for a suprise.And by the way,I would shoot you compassionately.I might need to put down an intruder who poses a threat to me or my family,but I see no need to feel hatred just because someone such as yourself has decided to surrender you essential humanity,as well as your life.(and as a brit.your god given right to defend yourself)R.K.B.A. ALWAYS!

-- zoobie (zoobiezoob@yahoo.com), November 14, 1999.

Colin,

I'm almost completely out of sugar, I guess I'll be coming over to house starting tonight. You know, save time now and beat the rush.

-- (asshole@you.are), November 14, 1999.

Was this written by a shill for the ammunition industry?

-- Mr. Nugget (catsbutt@umailme.com), November 14, 1999.

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks. --Thomas Jefferson, Encyclopedia of T. Jefferson, 318, Foley, Ed., reissued 1967.

-- Thomas Jefferson (shooting sports@give.character), November 14, 1999.

"The supposed quietude of a good mans allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside...Horrid mischief would ensue were one half the world deprived of the use of them..." --Thomas Paine, I Writings of Thomas Paine at 56 (1894).

-- an epitaph for poor Colin (pity@the.British), November 14, 1999.

Most folks I know have no intention of doing anything, but will certainly show up at my door for a hand out - many have so stated their intentions with a nervous laugh. I say simply to them, "You know better and do nothing. You buy cars, but not food nor any defensive postures. Fine. When you come to my house the door will be bolted. While my family is doing without to make supplies, you are partying.

F*CK You when you show up in your new car for a hand out.

-- dead on arrival (doa@doa.com), November 14, 1999.

If someone comes looking for my preps and it might mean the survival of my lovely wife and little daughter, I will shoot them between the eyes without thinking twice. I have had to hurt people in the past in self defense situations in my youth and I will tell you, it's not a good feeling to strike another human. There is hesitation in combat amoung those who've not experienced it. It's a natural repugnance to hurting someone else. Unless it's been tested you don't know how you'll react.

Survival ain't pretty, it's just survival.

I am perplexed by your apparent willingness to look your local grocer rather than do a little more prepping right now.

-- Gordon (g_gecko_69@hotmail.com), November 14, 1999.

Colin, you are NOT LDS. The LDS church strongly advocates each family having ONE YEAR of food and water at all times. Were you truly LDS, you would have been "prepping" for many years, until you reached the required level. Also, LDS people KNOW that in times of trouble, the Church will take care of its own, and that there are massive storehouses from which food is distributed to less fortunate members.

I for one am offended that you claim to be of my faith.

-- Dennis (djolson@cherco.net), November 14, 1999.

Colin,

I bet you're a bureaucrat....you talk like one.

-- Mabel Dodge (cynical@me.net), November 14, 1999.

Dennis: I am guessing here, but I don't think he LITERALLY meant LDS.

Colin: Just FYI, I have prepped extensively, have probably a years worth of food and water supplies and enough first aid supplies to stock a couple of ambulances. I have made up baggies of dehydration mix to add with water in case the need arises, I have grown and canned some of my own food, etc. And yes, we are armed. But, yes, we are also compassionate. Not to the point of letting people steal our food and watching our daughter starve, but compassionate nevertheless. I wouldn't turn my family away.

however, I do NOT live in the UK. I live in the states, tucked away in a bedroom community of Dallas. Look around you, what are YOUR neighbors like?

-- not my usual handle (notmyusualhandle@here.now), November 14, 1999.

You are my nightmare! I have lost sleep worring over just your kind. You are aware of the posibilitys and yet your too LAZY to do anything about it. But you have thought thru how capable of lawlessness you are TO THE POINT OF TIMING IT! My husband is N.G. and has promised his life to protect the constitution and your freedoms under it. Its "nice men" like you who weigh on my mind. If your so worried about what this country may degenerate into why don't you go BUY NOT STEAL some beans now and stay home! At least then my husband might know who the "bad guys" are.

You disgust me

-- Hatti (klavine@tco.com), November 14, 1999.

All that one writes and posted can be used against oneself in a court of law. What you have done Colin is state to the globe that you are premeditating a robbery. That is enough evidence to have you arrested.

-- Paula (chowbabe@pacbell.net), November 14, 1999.

Colin-

You are the absolute lowest troll. A complete hypocrite. I said in an earlier post that those who straddle the fence usually wind up getting it in the nuts. You WILL be nutless, probably from some nervous, scared to death GI and his 12 gauge, who never wanted to hurt anyone. That's the shitty part about this whole mess; lazy fucks like you won't get off their ass and DO SOMETHING, so the rest of us have to prepare accordingly by stocking extra food for the clueless, and extra ammo for the assholes like you. I have newfound respect for pollies like Y2Kpro; at least they really believe in BITR, and presumably, have no PLANS to go out looting. Thank God for the second amendment. Sorry they don't have it over in Jolly Ol' England, you twit. Now, excuse me, I need to get back to reloading. .308 168gr. HPBT's today ol' chap. Don't get near my perimeter if you know whats good for you.........

-- cavscout (Ireallyc@n't.believesomepeople), November 14, 1999.

There's some interesting responses here, thanks for the feedback. First, I am dreadfully sorry for having obviously offended some people. In retrospect, my comments were thoughtless and plain stupid at this time when there are genuinely scared and angry people out there - I'm not that scared yet, and am still (obviously) treating the whole thing as an academic thought exercise. In this forum, that was stupid and wrong, and I humbly apologise for the hurt I have caused.

Regarding the insults, I understand and accept your censure. But please, PLEASE don't confuse the person I am now (well fed, warm and content) with the person I will be after three days without food and three months without heating. I really like my neighbours, and would grudge them nothing, even now. I don't think TEOTWAWKI *is* going to happen, I was just speculating on what the behaviour of the non- preppers (including me) is going to be if it DOES come to that. I have no false illusions that my compassion will survive the ready availability of food.

Don't believe me? Look at the recent disaster zone in India. People - decent, hard working people WITHOUT a supermarket mentality - were turning on each other after THREE DAYS without relief. And that was in a localised emergency, with supplies flooding in from outside. It's sad, and it's shocking, but it seems to be human nature.

Sorry, I'll stop now, I'm just being abrasive again. Once more: I don't think TEOTWAWKI will happen, that's why I'm treating it so lightly. All I was wondering was what the well prepped people thought would happen SOCIALLY if they were right.

But once again, I am truly sorry for being so thoughtless and offensive. :(

-- Colin MacDonald (roborogerborg@yahoo.com), November 14, 1999.

the real question, it seems, is, what part of ones makeup surfaces most prominantly under what type situation?

i.e. - we are all 'animal'; we all need food to live; at some point [and that point will vary for various people in various situations], the animal in us all will come out - or we will die - and some of us WILL die because we will allow our 'civilized' nature to dominate over our need to survive.

the irony of the Y2K event is that it may require some of us to find ourselves in a quandry of immense proportions we may have never encountered before, i.e. - having to ask ourselves:

is this a situation in which I should act as a gentleman, learned, sophisticated, moral, schooled in the 'rule of law'; or is this a situation in which I "survive" - by whatever means or methods I have at my disposal?

the innate need to survive is far more ingrained in us all than is the need to be kind, or gracious, or most of the other attributes we consider to part of one who is called 'civilized'.

Colin asks a great question:

it is up to each of us to form our own individual response...and the mental exercise necessary to do that is MOST worthwhile, for it gets to the heart of what it is -

to be alive,

to be male,

to be human,

to be civlized,

to be worthy of being called a member of humankind.

It's easy for some to flip off quick and easy answers, but for others, these are the questions of the sages:

who am I?

from whence have I come?

where might I be going?

what shall I have done while I have been here?

shall this place have been made any better by my passing here?

the food in the nearest 7-11 may define who we are more than we care to admit...

-- Perry Arnett (pjarnett@pdqnet.net), November 14, 1999.

Perry,

Thanks for all the psychobabble bullshit, but the fact remains that MOST of the DGI population has made a decision, conciously or not, that everything will be ok, so they are not planning for disaster. Colin, on the other hand has made a VERY conscious decision not to do anything, because AW, WHAT the HELL, he can just loot a store, or TRY and rob from some of us "DOOMERS" if TSHTF. He's like some asshole who carries no insurance and hits you with his car, then tries to sue you for being in the way. He sucks.

-- cavscout (cavscout@fix.net), November 14, 1999.

still sorry to differ with you colin but just because you have to go without food and heat for three days should not turn you in to a raving monster. give me a break. some people shine in the midst of adversity. it is under those circumstances that our true character is revealed.

-- tt (cuddluppy@yahoo.com), November 14, 1999.

I'm afraid that "Colin" sounds A LOT like a troll that posts here now and then under the names of "Buddy", "DC Buddy", and "Doomslayer". A very gentlemanly manner, but with posts designed to get people pissed so that they explain exactly WHAT THEY WOULD DO if someone came to take away the preparations that they had worked so hard for.

Buddy then cuts & pastes the responses and posts them over at a so-called "de-bunking Y2K" forum that he oversees (along with Paul Davis, another looney-toone), and they comment and "prove" to everyone how "crazy" those Yourdon Forum doomers are.

The names change, but the game stays the same. Right, Buddy?

-- King of Spain (madrid@aol.cum), November 14, 1999.

Colin, you sound "nasty enough" to me.

-- Randolph (dinosaur@williams-net.com), November 14, 1999.

Oh no, no, no. I've just realised what LDS stands for. It's Latter Day Saint, isn't it? It was NOT my intention to imply that I belonged to that church, and a special apology goes to them for that particular piece of idiocy. Especially as they have been giving long term sensible advice about preparation. I really didn't realise what I was doing, I used a half familiar phrase without thinking. This just gets worse and worse, and I actually feel sick with remorse in a way that I haven't felt for years. I can't believe I've been so hurtful to people that only last week I was admiring for being warm and compassionate.

If this demonstrates anything, it shows just how easily a person can turn into a spiteful moron when they're scared. If it helps you to understand my post any, I'll freely admit that I am increasingly scared by Y2K, but I don't have the courage to do anything about it and with every day that passes, I'm increasingly aware of how little time there is left. I know how stupid that is, and I despise myself for not having done more to prepare. That's why I was lashing out at the preppers. Petty spite. :(

My loving partner definitely doesn't get it, and I've pushed her tolerance about as far as I dare with my stocking, which I've just today increased to a pitiful three weeks each. I'm scared to not stock more, and thank you to those who have told me that it's not too late to "buy beans", but I'm also scared that if I do stock more at this late date, I'm just going to take food out of someone else's mouth, probably my neighbours, who I *do* know and really like. I'm scared for them too, and I don't really believe for a second that I could watch them and their children suffer without sharing, and that means less for me, so I'm scared again. I know I should have stocked lots, but I should have done it six months or a year ago. If there's one thing that I AM sure of about Y2K, it's that everyone and their dog is going to try and stock up in late December. Where is it going to come from now? I'm scared to even discuss it with the woman I love because we've had many long, reasonable discussions about it, and she STILL doesn't believe there's any cause for concern, and now she's even starting to get angry at my "irrational" behaviour. So I'm scared to take action to protect her, and I'm scared not to.

I may as well get it all off my chest. We agreed that it would be prudent to withdrawn a little cash, but I've withdrawn MOST of it and hidden it, because I'm really worried about the banks going down. But if they go, everything goes, so what's the point of having cash? I'll have a few hours to spend it, no more. It's doing too little, too late. I feel so bad about lying to her, especially as she trusts me to look after our finances. I'm considering buying a significant stock, and hiding it in the garage - which ironically has an electric door, so I'll have to leave the window open to be sure of getting to it. If she finds it pre Y2K (or after, in a BITR), she'll flip. But how can I not do it? Does it matter if she flips, as long as she's not starving? I know she'll forgive me, but I'm still betting on a BITR, and she would lose some respect and trust for me if I stocked against her will. If she finds out about the money, that will really her, and how could I ask her to trust me after that, even if I was doing it out of concern for her..

This must look really wierd following such a venemous post. To explain, I was trying to kid myself that I could avoid preparing and still survive a TEOTWAWKI by becoming a real bastard, just like in the movies. I have done several years of training in a weapons martial art which stresses control and personal responsibility, buy hey, I could turn that mindset around in a second and become an invincible Urban Warrior, the world would be mine for the taking, right? But I know I'm just kidding myself. I'm as terrified of the breakdown of law and order as the next person. I've studied history, and I have an idea just how nasty and unfair my society was before we achieved even the stunted social justice that we have today. But I don't even have to study history, I can see it happening on my TV somewhere in the world every day. I've tried to make myself believe that it can't happen here, not in my country, my town, my street. But what if it did? Would I survive, or would I just give up? And if I survived (without a stock) at what cost, to my friends and neighbours, to my partner and to myself? I just don't know, and that scares me more than the thought of the breakdown itself, because it mean that I just don't know how all those around me will react when and if they wake up to find a crisis going on.

However, this was a stupid forum to use to try and deny my fear to people who really didn't need to hear it. In a previous post, I expressed a hope that if things went wrong, we'd see a period of martial law - and yes, I see the irony and stupidity of boasting about looting when I also want soldiers on the streets. Here's what I'm saying: "I'm scared. I don't know what I'll do. I don't know what anyone will do. Someone step in at the last moment and make it all right."

I'll shut up soon. One last thought - I'm pretty disgusted with myself for even writing down those cruel thoughts about my neighbours. Two of them are policemen, and if things DO go wrong even in a minor way, it occurs to me that I'll be relying on them to keep order. I'm going to go and talk to them all, and I'm going to keep trying to persuade them to stock right up to the last moment. I know they'll think I'm wierd, but I'll be happy for them to laugh at me sometime well after Y2K. Maybe I can persuade them to do what I say rather than what I lack the moral fibre to do myself.

Once again, sorry for the offence. If anyone still has a problem with what I said here, please, please contact me and I'll try to make it right.

-- Colin MacDonald (roborogerborg@yahoo.com), November 14, 1999.

Fuck off Colin. Whetehr you're a polly or a polly troll, go get your strokes elsewhere.

-- SH (squirrel@hunter.com), November 14, 1999.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

Now, it sounds as though you're encouraging your neighbors to stock up so that when you inevitably go out on your animalistic looting rampages (since you refuse to prepare yourself) there will actually be someone from whom you can steal.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), November 14, 1999.

Colin,

I just got off work, you better have that sugar ready for me you fuckup, or I'm going to make you my new bitch. I'll be needing a pound a day for the next twenty years. Got that??

-- (asshole@you.are), November 14, 1999.

I've been reading your b.s. and I have only thing to say to you - don't you have a child? Give that child to me. I will feed it, care for it, protect it, teach it, love it. Your child deserves a parent who prepared. Contact me via this forum with your name, phone number, address and the phone number of your legal counsel. I can be in London within 36 hours. Please arrange for you and your children, with their belongings, to be in your legal counsel's office upon my arrival. I would prefer that you sign all pertinent papers prior to arrival and we will not need to meet. If you have more than one child, I'll take them all. Just pack lightly for them.

Does that make your stomach twist? Your children could be gone - forever - whether I take them or not. Because your vision of parenting and preparing is singularly self-centered.

-- adoptive mom (mom@mom.com), November 14, 1999.

colin and other starving dgi,s

when you come to my door wanting food you will get 16 ounces of brown powder and told to add water to make mush/gruel and told to leave and not to come back or i that will kill you!!!

what i will not tell you though is that last year (1999) i purchased 1000 pounds of cheap generic dry dog food and had it ground down to a fine powder. and that is the stuff that i am giving you.

you are low yellow mangy rabid dog and that is all you deserve.

-- xox.oxo (xox@oxo.com), November 14, 1999.

Colin - I understand your situation but I don't understand why you couldn't obtain work on a farm or something. Especially if machinery can't be operated due to lack of gas, they will be needing more hands. Many immigrants who came to America started out working on farms, it's certainly nothing to be ashamed of. Plus couldn't you buy a cow with that money you have hidden away? A few chickens? I'm not in much better straights than you, but I have books about snaring and trapping, cooking from raw grains, farming, etc. It's hard to think when you are afraid. Here are some book recommendations:

"The Encyclopedia of Country Living" Carla Emery

"Living off the land in the country and the city" Ragnar Benson

"Back to Basics: A Preparedness Handbook" by James Talmadge Stevens

Try to operate from a position of strength, not fear. Good luck.

-- Amy Leone (leoneamy@aol.com), November 15, 1999.

Colin,

I'm buying extra rice and beans to feed my neighbors. VERY inexpensive investment. Also buying extra "solar water" distilling materials to build many distillers for my neighbors. Also lots of plastic to catch rain water. I have a 2,500 gal. above ground pool I'm filling as well.

If TEOTWAWKI comes, my family and I will NEED our neighbors. There is safety in numbers. We will band together for protection. We will make it through the winter and spring, I have assured this much.

Come early spring, we will be planting crops. I have already purchased a pressure canner and jars for next year's harvest. I also have a generator and some fuel/oil that will ONLY be used to run our freezer to make ice for everyone next summer. Also, I figure by then, gas in abandoned vehicles will be pleantiful, as well as abandoned generators, freezers, small air conditioners, etc.

If you can make it through the first four months, and get in a new cycle, the rest will be easy. To attempt this without the support of your neighbors is the formula for death, IMHO.

-- GoldReal (GoldReal@aol.com), November 15, 1999.