So, is capitalism working in your life? Or do you feel like surplus goods in a world where porductive workers are the only valuable commodity? What do you think it's doing for the people in the formerly communist republics of Europe and Asia? Will the split between rich and poor in the U.S. create a backlash here against the current laissez faire climate?

-- Anonymous, December 15, 1999

Answers

Response to Is Capitalism Good ... fgor You?

Great, my first question in any forum ever, and I put a typo in the title.

To answer my own question, I am getting lukewarm about capitalism. Besides the obvious problem of who is going to take care of me after my productive years are over (if my private retirement investments are unlucky, will I be eating cat food in my 80s?), I worry about public policy. Our government obviously views ensuring economic success as its primary purpose, but we don't hear much about any other values anymore. Even twenty years ago I heard a lot more about other things that "America stands for."

I was reading "King Leopold's War" this week, which discusses the oppression of Africans in the Congo (genocide, really), and the question kept occurring to me, Why? What good were millions of Africans sacrificed to, except putting better cutlery on the tables of Brussels? And then it occurred to me, what is most of my time spent on, except putting better cutlery on my table?

So, does anyone else wonder if all of this getting and spending is a waste of time? Or is the system working for y'all?

-- Anonymous, December 15, 1999

Response to Is Capitalism Good ... fgor You?

As one of the people in the formerly communist republics of Europe I have to say that I do prefer capitalism to the "real life socialism". Americans seem to take their life and freedoms for granted.

To make you understand better I will give you Soviet answer to your question who is going to take care of you after your productive years are over (if your private retirement investments are unlucky, will you be eating cat food in your 80s?)

With the help of the free health care (and you will not be allowed to get any other !) you will be dead before you are 70. So the problem you described will not arise... and, BTW, there were no cat food produced in Soviet Union. And even today the imported cat food is much more expensive than the food I eat daily.

-- Anonymous, December 16, 1999

Response to Is Capitalism Good ... fgor You?

Just to be sure Aet and everyone else understands, I wasn't suggesting that a Marxist-Leninist regime might be an improvement over our American two-party system. There are, of course, alternatives to Manchester school capitalism and Soviet socialism. I don't want to hide my flag: I think that the best alternative is based on Lockean underpinnings and best articulated (if not best practiced) by Thomas Jefferson. I think that it used to exist on this soil, but that it is currently endangered by its own success in creating material prosperity.

I worry when our President goes to the WTO and argues in favor of naked free trade, because I worry that it will do for me what Leopold II's free trade policies did for the citizens of the Congo Free State. I wonder whether the current Administration agreees that it has other obligations to its citizens beyond a healthy economy. To say it another way, I wonder if the Administration believes that those who choose not to make participation in the economy their primary means of pursuing happiness are equally vested as citizens.

My worries are more than theoretical. The suppression of the riots in Seattle was a big blow to our First Amendment Rights. It is outrageous that citizens were driven off the streets in residential neighborhoods, and that a 7 p.m. curfew was imposed. Essentially, the unrest was a political demonstration against the narrow view of American democracy, and its suppression is morally indistinguishable from any other non-lethal suppression of free speech. Are we hearing so little outcry about that because the press is controlled by the very multinational companies that have most to gain from free trade policies?

Aet, I don't mean to overreact, but it seems to me that you got hold of the wrong end of the stick when you suggested that my post takes American freedoms for granted. I would argue that I was participating in the unceasing vigilance that is the price of liberty in a democracy.

I also disagree with you that capitalism is the system that gave the United States its freedoms for which I should be grateful. Capitalism, rather, is the system that gave England her colonies. I am quite interested in hearing your reaction.

-- Anonymous, December 16, 1999

Response to Is Capitalism Good ... fgor You?

>>I would argue that I was participating in the unceasing vigilance that is the price of liberty in a democracy.

I also disagree with you that capitalism is the system that gave the United States its freedoms for which I should be grateful. Capitalism, rather, is the system that gave England her colonies.<<

I agree with you, and found Aet's comments about "Americans" a bit insulting. If I made unflaterring generalizations about various groups of recent immigrants, I'm sure they would feel insulted (so I won't insult them here when *one* of them says something about Americans and how some of us choose to *use* our freedoms, including the freedom to dissent, that comes across as rather uninformed).

One of my favorite political dissenters is Noam Chomsky, and I'd suggest that anyone who wants to take in a non-mainstream view of the kind of (illusions of) democracy and the kind of economic / political system we really have here might read some of his books and essays and interviews. He expresses it all much more clearly than I can, so I will just say read him for starters (starting with "Necessary Illusions" and "Manufacturing Consent" perhaps).

I also agree with you that their are other alternatives to the kind of economics system and two-aprty system that are NOT like the kind of tyrannies which existed in Russia and other communist / socialist countries. That would be about the LAST kind of government system *I* would want to live under.

But criticizing the faults of our *own* system and trying to move towards a better standard of living for *everyone* here is not "un-American" in my view. In my view, it's the most "American" thing in the world.

So thanks for posting your views here, Tom - in case no one else appreciates reading a minority view, I just wanted to let you know that I do appreciate your taking the time to express it here.

-- Anonymous, December 16, 1999

I would suggest reading Friedrich Hayek rather than Noam Chomsky, if you are interested in how high-minded "alternatives" to capitalism invariably end up as the last kind of systems you want to live under. I'd wager Hayek had a better handle on the matter.

Aet was quite right in her response: Tom asked how those in the former communist republics were faring under capitalism, and she answered. I personally do not see what is so inappropriate about her observation that Americans take their freedoms for granted. I have said this myself on numerous occasions, and I see talking heads on television stating the same thing on a regular basis. Am I or these pundits just as out of line for asking this question as Aet? Or were you offended in this case because you misconstrued the source of that generalization as being an immigrant?

If you plan to have a serious discussion here on the merits and drawbacks of capitalism, could you maybe start by defining what capitalism means to you? I find that most people have been taught to associate the term with robber barons, Dickensian sweatshops, zero-sum wealth accumulation and the like, but that is far from the truth. How do you define capitalism, in your own words?

-- Anonymous, December 16, 1999

I'll take the invitation to define "capitalism" from the Man of Two Worlds' post, and I'll also explain my use of "democracy." I offer this post to clarify my position, and not to invalidate anyone else's definitions or insult anyone's intelligence:

"Capitalism" is the economic system whereby the private owner of the means of production of goods or services has the right to sell the goods or services produced, and to retain any profit. "Manchester," or "laissez faire" capitalism occurs when government chooses not to regulate capitalists. I don't think I'm splitting hairs to distinguish between "capitalism" and "mercantilism," because mercantilism does not offer the same opportunities and risk to the non-owners of the means of production.

"Democracy" is the political system whereby the citizens select their ruler. There is no implicit promise that a democracy will be capitalist, and in fact at different times the United States' democratic system has been more and less favorably inclined to capitalism. Also, democracy predates capitalism as I define it. I therefore will need some persuading before I discuss ancient Athens, or even Locke, in terms of capitalism.

The core of my original post could have read, "Do you believe that the current move by the Administration toward laissez fair capitalism is consistent with democracy? Has the increased focus on free trade alienated you from the fruits of your labor, or are you feeling enfranchised? If so, do you think that's true across our society or is there a risk of a backlash by the disfranchised?"

I avoided using Marxist terminology at first because I don't want to align myself with Marxism -- although I seem to have raised Aet's suspicions. Actually, I thought Aet's comments were directly on point and entirely appropriate, although I thought she was conflating democracy and capitalism, as I said in my response. I hope we have not succeeded in silencing her.

I think that the Seattle riots were clear evidence of the potential for a backlash against the effects of the current free trade policies of the U.S. by those who do not control the means of production. We can debate the right and wrong of Seattle: free speech or mob violence? civil order or repression? But I don't think one can honestly argue that the riots were at least somewhat anti-capitalist in nature, and at least somewhat the result of a democratic system.

It was reflections on Seattle that impelled my post -- and I'm still curious about your thoughts.

-- Anonymous, December 17, 1999