Can't get meat during Y2K? You'll be better off! : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread

Nutritional Awakening by Dr. Klaper.

It began when I was on the cardiovascular anesthesia service, and that's the service that deals with people's hearts and blood vessels. One evening I was making rounds to see a patient who was scheduled for a four-vessel coronary by-pass several days hence, and the man had been out on a day-pass with his family before surgery, quite a common practice. He had returned to the hospital rather late and the nurse notified me that there were several blood tests that were missing off his chart that we needed to repeat, and so she asked if I would draw blood on the man, which I happily did. I drew some of his blood into a glass tube and I brought it to the nurse's station and I let it sit there while I got busy with some work in the ward. An hour and a half later I went back to the nurse's station to take the blood tube down to the laboratory. What I saw in the blood tube gave me a rude awakening.

When you draw blood into a glass tube and allow it to sit there for a couple of hours, it separates out into two parts.

Here is normal blood on the left. You see the red clot on the bottom and the clear liquid serum has risen up to the top? The serum should be transparent, you should be able to see through normal serum. However, the blood in my patient's tube looked very different. The serum that was floating on top of his clot was thick and greasy white, it looked like ivory glue when I shook the tube; the serum stuck to the sides of the tube.

I went back into the room and said, "Sir, before you came back to the hospital tonight, did you stop off anywhere from dinner?"

He said, "Yes"

"Where?" I asked, and he said he had stopped at his local gourmet restaurant and he had his usual fare. And I said, "What did you have?"

"Well, I had a double-bacon steerburger with extra cheese and a milkshake" (a common offering at such institutions).

And at that point, I realized what I was looking at in his blood tube, what was all the floating on top of his blood tube. It was all the beef-fat in the burger; it was all the butter-fat in the cheese; it was the butter-fat in the ice cream; it was the egg yoke fat that was in the mayonnaise that was slathered on the bun. All the fat that this man had eaten had oozed out into his bloodstream and turned his blood fatty.

Day after day, month after month

This is a well known phenomenon, it is called lipima and it happens every time you eat a fatty meal, a wave of fat goes through your bloodstream. Not everybody shows it this optically densely, but everyone has a wave of fat going through their bloodstream after a fatty meal. How can it be any other way?

There's an old saying, "out of sight, out of mind." Might be out of sight, might be out of your mind, but it's certainly not out of your bloodstream after such a meal. Your body is never "not looking." There's no fooling your body. You can't tell your body, "Look over there!" and then have a cheeseburger, and then your body says, "What was that, what was that?" Your body knows exactly what you eat. Your bloodstream and your liver has to deal with everything you eat, and with the consequences of each meal.

These consequences build up day after day, month after month, year after year. The face you see looking in the mirror is the result of the decisions you've made throughout your life. Should I eat this? Should I not eat that? Should I smoke this? Should I not smoke that? Should I drink this? Should I not drink this?

Health is not something the doctor can apply to you like calamine lotion. Health is something you do on a daily basis, and making wise decisions at the dinner table is one of the best things you can do to assure your health.

I went back to my patient and discussed a bit about his dinner, but there was not much to say because the fat was already in his blood. What was especially disturbing to me, however, was several days latter we took him down to the operating room. I gave the man a thousand micrograms of pheontonel and put him to sleep, and the surgeon opened up his chest and opened up his coronary arteries. From this man's coronary arteries he began pulling yellow, greasy, waxy, fatty deposits that look like this:

What you are looking at is the plug of fat that built up in a man's right coronary artery. The artery was a tube coming out at you from the picture. The artery wall has been cut away and you are looking at the plug of fat that built up. The fat started out at the outer edges of the artery wall. As the months and years go by of these repeated tides of fat flowing through the arteries, the fat starts building up on the inside of the arteries, like scale builds up in the inside of a hot water pipe. And as the months and years went by, the fat had crowded in and crowded in on his blood flow channel until finally only the small dark area was left for the blood to flow through. When a clot formed here, it stopped the blood flow the his heart, stopped his heart and bought him a ticket to the autopsy table. This is the number one cause of death in western societies.

In North America every thirty seconds someone grabs their chest and falls over with a heart attack because this greasy material is clogging up arteries to their heart. This disease is called atheriosclerosis, and it is the number one cause of death and disease in western societies.

This material is quite remarkable. When you send it down to the pathologist and you ask him to do a chemical analysis the report always comes back the same: "saturated fat and cholesterol." Essentially, it's animal fat. The report from the pathologist never, ever, ever contains the words "remnants of broccoli, rice and tofu."

The good news is this stuff will melt away. If you clean up your diet and start taking a walk everyday, and you get rid of some of the stress that builds up within you, this is a reversible disease and will melt away.

Reversing Heart Disease

I want to tell you some things about this process so you can make better choices when it comes time to decide what your going to have for lunch or for dinner. Here's a simple analogy from clinical medicine.

This is a rather famous curve in medicine called the glucose tolerance curve. It just says if you give someone a hundred grams of glucose (that's a sugary drink that you swallow -- sugar is a very small molecule which moves through your bloodstream very rapidly) within a half an hour their blood sugar goes up to a 170 or 180 milligrams. But immediately the pancreas senses the sugar in the blood, and puts out insulin. So the blood sugar comes down fairly rapidly, and by two or certainly three hours, the blood sugar should be back to normal again.

This is not the case with fats in your diet. Fats are a much larger molecule and they move into the bloodstream much more slowly and they come out of the bloodstream much more slowly. If you eat a fatty meal and have someone draw blood on you every hour for the next six hours, and you look at those six blood tubes, you will see them becoming milkier, and milkier, and milkier as the fat moves into the bloodstream. In fact if you take those six tubes and you put them into an instrument that measures how milky the serum is becoming (that instrument is called a spectrophotometer), you will generate a milkiness index. It's called the Lactescence index.

And here you see a classic curve: someone has a bacon and egg breakfast say, and over the next 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 hours you see the blood becoming milkier and milkier as the fat moves in. This is a very significant time curve. With the sugar, the sugar was up and down within three hours. At 5 hours the fat is just reaching it's peak. This has grave consequences (pun intended), for people eating in the western dietary style. Let's take this same curve and let's extend it out throughout the day on someone who is eating in a standard western style and what you will generate is a figure that looks like this:

Let's say at breakfast time, a person has bacon and eggs and the fat moves into the bloodstream at 9:00, 10:00, 11:00, 12 o'clock. So at 12:30 in the afternoon, the fat from breakfast is just reaching it's peak. What happens at 12:30?

The person heads off to his favorite fast-food restaurant and orders his double-bacon steerburger' with extra cheese, and another wave of fat goes through the bloodstream: 1:00, 2:00, 3:00, 4:00, 5:00, and 6 o'clock in the evening the fat from lunch is just reaching it's peak. What happens at 6 o'clock in the evening? If your a working person you may stop off at your favorite fried chicken institution on the way home and order some extra crispy thighs dipped in bacon grease and you take that home.

And another wave of fat goes through the bloodstream, 6:00, 7:00, 8:00, 9:00, 10 o'clock at night . . . the fat from dinner is just reaching it's peak. And what happens at 10 o'clock at night?

Usually one spouse turns to the other and says, "Dear, do you have any ice cream in the freezer?" and another wave of fat goes through the bloodstream. 10:00, 11:00, 12:00 and so on, and around 3 o'clock in the morning the fat from the snack is just reaching it's peak. The liver, the arteries are swimming with fat. The fat deposits out in the arteries, deposits out in your fat stores, finally it starts leaving the bloodstream and the fat level comes down in the bloodstream just as the dawn is breaking, just in time for the whole fatty circus to start all over again.

When we see the diseases that western human beings suffer from, the clogged arteries, the high blood pressure, the obesity, the diabetes -- these are not random events. These are not curses from a wrathful god punishing us. These are the inevitable consequences of running fat through your bloodstream, hour after hour, day after day, month after month.

How to lower your cholesterol

It's my humble assertion that the best way to lower your cholesterol is: stop eating it.

Only animals make cholesterol. No plant makes cholesterol. And you have no metabolic requirement for animal products whatsoever. Let me underline that again. The human body, the very one your sitting in right now, has absolutely no nutritional requirements for the flesh of animals or for the milk of cows.

When you are reversing heart disease, as you clean up your diet, and this clogging starts melting away, the blood flow will increase. Just a little regression in these plaques means a big increase in blood flow and that's why angina will go away so quickly, that's why people can walk further, that's why their blood pressures go down so quickly, it's one of the major reasons. There's another which I will share with you in a minute. But this gives you hope if you or a relative have clogged arteries. Rather than signing right up for that artero surgery, it is certainly worth, if your life is not in immediate danger, to try a low-fat, pure vegetarian diet and a walking program. Expect good things to happen, because they usually do -- and quickly.

Here's another reason why people feel so good, so quickly. When you eat a fatty meal, imagine what happens to a red blood cell floating in all that fat.

Well, here you see it represented schematically. As the hours go by, blood cells get coated with fat. Here is a capillary, a tiny little blood vessel, let's say it's in your brain, or in your heart. As the blood cells that are carrying oxygen become coated with fat, they become stickier and they start sticking together. As a result the blood vessels start clogging up. We say there is "slugging" of the blood flow. It looks like at freeway a rush hour and the blood cells start moving slower and slower. You can see this through a microscope, these normally rapidly moving blood cells start moving very, very slowly. And that's why so many heart attacks happen after dinner, because the blood is flowing so thickly.

Well, the good news is that if you consume foods that don't have a lot of fat, you can expect the blood to stay free-flowing, which is another reason why blood pressures go down; the heart doesn't have to pump this thick blood through the arteries. And so blood pressures go down and blood flows more free-flowing, and for that reason angina frequently goes away. All sorts of advantages happen as we eat less and less fats.

Slimming down

I have been a physician for over twenty-two years. I have never admitted anyone to the coronary care unit with a diagnosis of olive oil embolism. We are talking about saturated animal fats. Some of the heavier, denser, saturated plant oils; palm oil, coconut oil, avocado oil, play a tiny role in contributing to this problem. But have no illusions: the majority of people suffering heart attacks and strokes, and the other diseases I showed you, are suffering largely from the large amount of animal-fats they have consumed.

Animal-fat also sticks to you. When you turn your blood fatty and that fatty blood goes through the fat stores underneath your skin, the fat deposits out there. This is not a random event.

Those people who are angry because they are still carrying excess weight and they can't figure out why that fat is sticking there, they need to take an honest look at what is on their plate. As this person changes their diet, as they move toward lower fat, whole foods, whole grains, whole potatoes, whole fruits, whole vegetables, they will become leaner. It certainly happened to me.

I began to change my diet and I felt. "If I do not run all this fat through my arteries, I'm going to be spared this problem." So I stopped eating meats and dairy products. I was concerned that I may not get enough protein or vitamin B-6, or vitamin B-2, so I checked my nutrition books to see what might possibly be a deficiency showing up. It turns out that there is absolutely no nutrient, no vitamin, no mineral, no protein that is found in animal foods (in meats and dairy products) that can not be obtained out of plant-based foods, that includes vitamin B-12 and we'll be talking about that shortly.

So, as I went to more plant-based foods, I found a wonderful change happening. My cholesterol level fell sharply. My blood pressure, which had been slightly elevated, fell to normal levels. But most impressive to me, I had almost a 24 pound! That's, I guess, almost a two stone spare tire around of fat around my waist, which I could not get rid of even though I had beenrunning five miles a day. Within 12 weeks that 24 pounds of fat melted right away. I found myself waking up in a nice, lean light body. And this was not through deprivation -- I was eating tremendous amounts of Italian food, and Chinese food, and East Indian food, and Thai food, and potatoes, and pastas.

I highly recommend that at least half your diet be composed of fresh, live, uncooked fruits or vegetables. The more you cook food, the deader it gets. The more the vitamins are destroyed, the more the proteins denature. So a good general rule is make sure that half the food your eating on a given day, is food as grown. Lots of fresh vegetables, fresh fruits, fresh salads. Lightly steamed, 3 or 4 minutes in a vegetable steamer, but avoid overcooking and over processed foods.

What do you really need to run a human body?

You need six nutrients.

ENERGY- Comes from carbohydrates and fats. Those abound in grains, and legumes, and fruits and vegetables, and in the starches, and the oils.

PROTEIN- Abounds in grains and legumes, and green vegetables.

VITAMINS and MINERALS- To metabolize all these nutrients, are found in green and yellow vegetables.

WATER- And of course, water is freely available.

This is all you need to run a human body, and all of these are available in the plant foods that grow out of the ground.

Four Food Groups

We have the new four food groups these days, based upon whole grains, vegetables, legumes and fruits. And they will supply all your requirements for proteins, vitamins and minerals without burdening the body with extra fats.

All calories are not created equal. Calories are just units of heat measurement from physics class. It doesn't tell you rather those calories are coming from clean burning carbohydrates or stick to your waist fats.

Here's 300 calories in a stomach and you can see it doesn't take up very much room, it doesn't satisfy you very much after a meal. On the other hand, 300 calories of potatoes are going to fill your stomach right up and yet do it with very little fat and this is going to pass right on through. So when my patients want an extra helping of rice and vegetables, I'll say "By all means, go ahead and don't even worry about how many calories are on your plate" Again, what was sticking to that obese man's abdomen was not rice and vegetables, it was all of the fat he had eaten. So, go ahead and enjoy the whole foods, without undue concern for calories.

Dairy Dangers

I will no longer drink the milk from cows nor consume products made from that milk. Cow's milk is a superbly engineered fluid that will turn a 65 pound calf into a 500 pound cow in a year. That is what cow's milk is for.

Unfortunately, it often has that same effect on human beings. And people who are trying to get themselves leaner and they are still consuming dairy products, should have an honest look at this fluid. Even if the fat is extracted, even if you are eating low-fat cheeses and low-fat yogurts, there are still many substances in cow's milk that clearly cause problems when they're entered into the human system. Cow's milk has bovine proteins in it. It has casein and a whole number of cow proteins. When these proteins get out into the bloodstream (and they do) they flow through joint membranes. In some people this can cause rheumatoid arthritis to flare up. When these cow proteins flow through bronchial membranes, can cause asthma to get worse.

Bovine proteins are notorious for setting off inflammatory reactions throughout the body. Not only are there the bovine proteins to be concerned about, but cow's milk -- whether it is non-fat or not -- has lactose sugar, which many people can not digest. Lactose will give these people cramps and diarrhea when they consume cow's milk products. Cow's milk products also contain substantial amounts of pesticides and herbicides, which have been sprayed on the feed grains and then fed to the cows, these are all deposited in the milk. Cows are fed large amounts of antibiotics to keep the cows from getting infections, and these are frequently found in commercial cow's milk.

Whole milk is filled with artery clogging fat, allergenic proteins, indigestible milk sugars, antibiotics, herbicides, pesticides, and -- cow pus. It's enough to make me not want to pour it on my cereal. I don't want to eat cheese made from it. I will do anything to avoid dairy products. I will pour soy milk on my cereal, I'll pour rice milk on my cereal, I'll pour apple juice on my cereal, I'll pour anything -- except cow's milk -- on my cereal.

When my patients come in with rheumatoid arthritis or asthma, the very first dietary maneuver I do is ask them to pull the dairy products out of their diet. I am repeatedly amazed how quickly so many of these symptoms resolve with the simple expedient of removing cow's milk from the diet.

There's a lot of other sources of calcium than cow's milk. I mean where to cows get their calcium? Think about it, cows do not drink milk. Where do they get all that calcium? Well they get it from green plants of course. Green plants are loaded with calcium and so are grains, and nuts, and seeds, and fruits and vegetables. The plant kingdom has lots of calcium available. You certainly don't have to drink the milk of a cow any more than the milk of a giraffe, or the milk of a horse. And I submit to you that many health problems you have may well respond after the removal of dairy products from your diet.

The high protein content of animal products, when is metabolized, it leaves a lot of acids in the body, sulfur and sulfuric acids, and these acids have many detrimental effects. The chief effect being that these acids help calcium dissolve out of the bones. It's one of the major contributing factors to osteoporosis -- the tremendous amounts of chicken and fish, and high protein diets that so many of us consume, even though we may be eating less red meat.

When I ask my, especially my female patients, what are you eating these days? It comes back, chicken and fish, chicken and fish, chicken and fish, chicken and fish, chicken and fish. I think it's one food, it's "chicken-and-fish."

"What are we having for dinner tonight, dear?"

"Oh, we're having chicken and fish."

"Oh good, make mine medium rare!"

You are not doing yourself a favor, if you think, "Well, this chicken-and-fish is lower fat food. It looks white, it's not red and bloody, it looks white, so it's cleaner."

Kid yourself not; animal muscle is animal muscle. It doesn't matter if it flaps a wing or moves a shoulder, or wiggles a tail. Animal muscle is essentially the same stuff from species to species. It all contains essentially identical amounts of protein and fat, very little carbohydrates, and lots of cholesterol.

They've done studies where they have taken people eating red meats and changed them to eating chicken and fish, and their cholesterol levels did not drop a wit. There's no reason that it should, all you've done is changed the color of the meat. Changing the color of the meat does not help.

By the way, I'm serious about the osteoporosis issue. The ethnic group on the planet with the worst osteoporosis are the Eskimos, who live up in the Arctic. They eat all this fish, and all this seal meat. They run lots of protein through their bloodstream. They have horrific incidences of osteoporosis from the steady drain of calcium out of their bodies.

Osteoporosis is not a disease of calcium deficiency, it's a disease of calcium loss. And that calcium is going out through the kidneys from a number of causes. A sedentary lifestyle, to much animal protein in the diet, caffeine, sugar, salt, alcohol, all these things make you urinate out calcium. If you want to avoid osteoporosis, look on your dinner plate and see that chicken and fish is not doing you any great favors.

Something's fishy

Fish has some other problems with it as well. I know a lot of people are on their continuum: as their diet evolves, many people go from red meat, to chicken, to fish, to dairy products, and finally to a vegetarian diet,and then a vegan diet with no animal products.

If you are on this continuum, if you are moving towards a pure vegetarian diet, bless you. I do not want to make you feel uneasy.

But if you are in chicken and fish land, I urge you -- do not linger there to long.

Fish these days, besides being very concentrated protein, is by far the most polluted of all the flesh foods. For this reason I really feel that fish does not offer much at all in the way of a health food,. And if it's the last part of animal products in your diet -- again, have no compunction about letting it swim off your plate all together.

Vitimin B.-12

One issue that we need to cover is about vitamin B-12. This issue is very important. Vitamin B-12 is an essential nutrient that you need for healthy blood and healthy nerves. There is a prevailing feeling that only animal products contain vitamin B-12, as if cows make it.

Let me be very clear about this, cows do not make vitamin B-12. They never have, they never will. Pigs don't make vitamin B-12, chickens don't make vitamin B-12, no animal makes vitamin B-12. They never have, they never will.

Vitamin B-12 is synthesized by single-celled microbes (bacteria) that live in the soils of the earth. And long ago when the earth was healthy and the soils were healthy, before we put all sorts of chemicals on them, the surface of the earth was covered with vitamin B-12. There used to be lots of vitamin B-12 in our lives, even if you were a pure vegetarian 300 years ago. You'd open up the back door of your cottage and outside would be a beautiful organic garden, and every carrot you pulled out of the ground would have little particles of vitamin B-12 sticking to it. When it came time to get your water, you'd take a bucket of water out of the stream, there would be vitamin B-12 in the stream water. There would be B-12 in the well water you brought out. There would be B-12 under your finger nails from working in the garden. There would be plenty of B-12 in your life and you needed so little of it, that it was not an issue.

We've become very isolated from the earth and we've lost our natural sources of B-12. Cows have B-12 in their muscles because they're eating grass all day and their pulling up clumps of dirt that have B-12 producing organisms clinging to the root of the grass. They eat the B-12 producing organisms who then produce the B-12, which gets absorbed into their bloodstream, goes out into the muscles, and is deposited into their muscles and livers. But that is bacterial B-12 in the cow's muscle. The cow did not make it, nor did the pig or chicken. It's true that you can go up to the cow, bash it's brains in, rip open it's abdomen, tear out it's liver and eat it to get your vitamin B-12. But I submit to you there is far less expensive and less violent ways to get your vitamin B-12.

Those same organisms are now cultured in big vats, they produce their B-12 which is separated out. It is then sprayed on breakfast cereals, it's added to soy milks, it's added to soy burgers, it's added to nutritional yeast, it's added to vitamin tablets. It's easy to get vitamin B-12 without consuming animal products and I suggest to you if you really want to lighten up your diet, find a non-animal source of B-12. Is it unnatural? Only because the lives we're living are unnatural, and I think it's a much more holistic and gentle way to meet your B-12 needs.

We are evolving our diets. We're continuing an evolution. What our caveman ancestors ate is of little import to us now. The question is, what is the best diet for modern human beings? And in my personal experience, in my medical experience, and certainly as far as the medical literature is clearly showing now, the less animal fat and animal protein you run through your bloodstream, the healthier you are going to be.

Back to Dr. Klaper's Site

-- Y2K ready (, December 21, 1999


Doctor Klapers website

-- y2k ready (, December 21, 1999.

Aarrgghh! Mixed emotions! Heartburn!

Dr. K. makes a very very good point, e.g., diets high in saturated fats contribute to heart disease, and a number of points that are pseudo-scientific claptrap, e.g., fats build up on arterial walls like scale in a pipe, they make blood "thick" and harder to pump causing hypertension, fish and chicken are as potentially harmful as red marbled meats, well water "used to" contain vitamin B12, blood cells become stickier with high fat diets (true, sort of) because they are "coated with fat" (silly), etc.

I will give her the benefit of the doubt and say she is at times greatly simplifying concepts for a lay audience. I think attendees on this forum are brighter than Joe Six-pack, however, and don't think this degree of simplification is necessary. However, a number of the points she is making, simple or not, are just not correct. Take the post with a fistful of salt (low sodium, of course).

And gee, ain't this waaa

-- bob (, December 21, 1999.

aaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic? PS: it's "lipemia". PPS: why does this software keep cutting off the ends of my posts? mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

-- bob (, December 21, 1999.

I didn't read the entire article, but um is this y2k?

BTW, have you ever done a Sed rate? Persons with chronic inflamatory diseases will have a sed rate of over 12 in 60 minutes. My last one was 45. That means that regardless of my diet my blood will separate right before your eyes.

Not that lipima is in question, it's been known about for years, but there are also many other factors that need to be considered.

Shouldn't this be on the prep board?

-- Hokie (, December 21, 1999.

I read the whole article and I'm glad I did. There is something to going without meat. After reading this I'm much less concerned about having any meat during Y2K. Meat will be very hard to get during Y2K and I think this post will be very helpfull to all those who will not be able to buy meat during Y2K! GOOD ARTICLE, DO NOT DELETE!

-- smitty (, December 21, 1999.

Was it really the meat and fat (what our ancestors ate before agriculture) or all the carbohydrates in the sugar in the milkshake and in the hamburger bun grain? (Megadoses of sugar were rare unless they found a beehive, and they had to eat lot of berries to get what you get in a milkshake.) A high-carb (grain-based) diet is only a 6000 - 10,000 year experiment out of millions of years. And it's even higher carbs in the last 100 years with all the high-carb colas and snack foods.

Atkins (Atkins diet) is also a doctor, and his prescription makes more sense than those of the meat-bashers for the simple reason that millions of years of history are on his side.

The only ground I will give is that dairy (milk) products MIGHT be a problem -- maybe more research needed there, because they are also a recent (6000 - 10,000 years) addition to our diet. Eggs, OTH, are part of that millions of years history. As are fruits and vegetables. But NOT grains.

-- A (, December 21, 1999.

The Roman legions marched on a diet of vegetables and grain. They were known to mutiny when forced to eat meat.

-- Rider (Wake@Dawn's.Smile), December 21, 1999.

Guess that is the reason for the old time sacrificial rules: (Lev 3:9 KJV) "And he shall offer of the sacrifice of the peace offering an offering made by fire unto the LORD; the fat thereof, and the whole rump, it shall he take off hard by the backbone; and the fat that covereth the inwards, and all the fat that is upon the inwards,"

(Lev 3:10 KJV) "And the two kidneys, and the fat that is upon them, which is by the flanks, and the caul above the liver, with the kidneys, it shall he take away."

(Lev 3:11 KJV) "And the priest shall burn it upon the altar: it is the food of the offering made by fire unto the LORD."


Burn the kidneys and the fat "by fire unto the Lord." And the people were to eat the meat. Sounds like a health plan to me. Also little hints as to veal...don't.

Many other healthy ideas but modern society looks at the sacrificial system as gross. Part of the reason was to teach people to eat right.

IMO most people don't need meat on a daily basis. However you will find that when you are doing hard, physical labor you tend to need a bit of beef. I taught my kids to cut away the fat on all meats and not to eat pork. Sometimes their grandparents would tell them to eat it and my kids would refuse saying it was "gross."

-- Mark Hillyard (, December 21, 1999.

Prey animals have thier eyes on the side of their heads, Predators have eyes in the front, looking straingt forward. Notice how close together my eyes are.

-- rambo (, December 21, 1999.

Yes, I liked the article (but did notice the typos).

A few years ago my ex-hubby and I went dairy free vegetarian to try to figure out how he could clear up his allergies. He was severely asthmatic since birth and on theodur and prednisone plus inhalers. The best docs gave him an incredible list of allergans he had tested as sensitive (some they had to reverse the test with epinephrine because he reacted so strongly). Anyhow, we changed our diet and within 2 wks we were feeling sooooooo much better. We decided to celebrate with one of our old favorites: 1 lb. rib eyes, grilled to perfection! Managed to eat about half before stopping - kind of grossed out. The next day I awoke feeling hung over.

Meanwhile my ex-hubby improved dramatically and was able to start eating wheat bread again without his asthma worsening - we had starting shopping for organic products - my theory FWIW is that perhaps it wasn't the wheat he was allergic to but maybe the insecticides it was fumigated with in storage. I don't know, but it worked.

Now, you would think that since it worked so well we would have stuck to it..... but no we gradually went back to eating less carefully, but always better than before.

Before ruling out all dairy products I think there is something very beneficial when we eat natural, minimally processed yogurt, soft cheese, etc. - just my thought.

To each his own.... I think if we had to physically perform the raising and butchering of animals we would eat much less meat than we do today. It is hard work and hopefully you dislike the act of killing enough that you do it only when neccessary and with respect for the animal. That's what I do with my chickens - roosters are an inevitable result so you can't have 50 roosters in your backyard.... so they end up in the freezer.

Oops, just realized how rambling this is so I APOLOGIZE and sign off.... :)

-- Kristi (, December 21, 1999.

Thanks for this great article. The typos didn't bother me. I would rather eat a dirty sock than meat, but I'm hopelessly addicted to sugar. This post has given me the incentive to try and break that addiction. Every afternoon I get this horrible craving for something sweet--anything sweet! Thanks so much Y2K ready. I needed this.

Kristi, I enjoyed your post too.

-- gilda (, December 21, 1999.

Eat all the greasy meat you want.

It's the carbs gonna kill ya.

-- sugar (the@white.death), December 21, 1999.

Rider, can you provenance that roman anecdote?

-- Servant (, December 21, 1999.

IMHO, this post is filled with the typical exagerated, questionable fiction that is created to frighten people into embracing a particular point of view. Fear accompanies much of what the animal rights activists dispense. For those inclined to balance their perspective, one can visit the following site for other information:

My family are all beef eaters and typically live till their 80s-90s. My grandmother died at 98. I represent local family ranchers, but not in beef promotion. They raise calves for beef consumption and are all small operators. At least you know from the get go where I am coming from.

BTW, what on earth does this have to do with y2k?

-- marsh (, December 21, 1999.

It's definitely off topic. It's interesting to note, however, that when WWII was in full swing in Europe and meat became exceptionally rare, the death rate due to heart disease plummeted. After the war, when meat, sugar, and other customary foods were available again, the death rate due to those diseases returned to normal.

The poster does have a point. Meat is something that should be eaten as exceptions rather than as the rule. Now, back to Y2k, folks.

-- Tim the Y2K nut (, December 21, 1999.

I'm with you Marsh.

My grandparents had fried eggs, grits w/butter and sausage every day for breakfast. Ham sandwich or something similar for lunch and usually a pot roast or fried chicken and mashed taters for supper. Both sets lived well into their 80's. Dad's mom is still around bowling once a week at 88!!! And she carries a 165 average!!

I think your genes have a lot to do with how you process your food intake.

I eat what I want, when I want and still wear a 32 waist. Just had my cholesterol checked a few weeks back and it was only 180. Had actually dropped from 198 a year ago.

Meat is good but best when grilled medium-rare.....:-)


-- Deano (, December 21, 1999.

Gilda, from a hypoglycemic:

that mid afternoon craving MIGHT be an indication your lunch was protein short OR that it REALLY is time to have a small starch/fruit snack (1 exchange each). this much I know because my bride hits the wall and ANYTHING SWEET will be an unavoidable temptation if lunch wasn't balanced right and if the mid afternoon snack isn't available.


-- Chuck, a night driver (, December 21, 1999.

Y2K related -- A can of ham packs much more nutrition in the same space than heat, beans and rice.

-- A (, December 22, 1999.

If realizing that you are eating what was once a living, breathing, earth walking creature that could very much feel pain, does nothing to deter you, I would consider you pretty much hopeless.

Think about what you are putting into your body, how you got it, how it died, whether it lived a tortured existence in some inhumane "meat factory" and was killed in front of it's mother or it's babies.

Pre-packaged meat doesn't just fall out of the sky and onto the market shelves. Please stop and think. Listen to your conscience.


-- Cin (, January 13, 2000.

Cinloo, LadyLogic was looking for you over at Debunki earlier this week.

-- Three Dots (, January 13, 2000.


I'm 'hopeless' because I eat meat???

I think you're a little full of yourself.......or something.


-- Deano (, January 13, 2000.

Dean, Dean, Dean...

Selective hearing have you? You heard what you wanted to hear, not what I said. I suggest you read it again, carefully this time. That is, if you really care.

-- Cin (, January 13, 2000.

Cin Cin Cin

I read it again big guy and it didn't change any. Sure as hell sounds/looks like you're saying meat-eaters are hopeless because we don't consider the feelings of whatever it is we're eating.

Believe it or not most of the animals put here were put here for us to eat.

I don't eat cats or dogs. Does that make a difference???

What am I missing??


-- Deano (, January 13, 2000.


Just the fact that you assume I am a "big guy" says a lot. You interpret your own meaning into what you read. I am a female.

I can't instill morals into you. That should have been done by your parents when you were a child. You either have compassion or you don't, I guess. I can't change the world, unfortunately. But if I can perhaps save one creature needless suffering at the hands of selfish humans, it's all worth it to me. This is something I feel very passionately about.

Have you ever been inside a "meat factory" and seen the deplorable conditions these animals face? Every moment of their short existence is suffering. Have you ever been to a slaughterhouse? You choose not to think about it because it's easier that way. Ignorance, so that you can have your steak and your pork chops. What you can't see won't hurt you? And when I say "you", I am referring to the majority of the population. It's not personal Dean. And Dean, why would my opinion bother you so much, anyway? Could it be your conscience speaking to you?

Ok, I'm done now.

-- Cin (, January 13, 2000.

"I can't instill morals into you. That should have been done by your parents when you were a child. You either have compassion or you don't, I guess."

What a load of sanctimonious claptrap. To suggest that someone is immoral for eating meat is totally irrelevant and unsupportable. If your moral code demands vegan behavior, then go for it. I am not restricted by your moral code, however; no more restricted than you are compelled by mine.

"I can't change the world, unfortunately."

And a good thing that is, too.

"But if I can perhaps save one creature needless suffering at the hands of selfish humans, it's all worth it to me. This is something I feel very passionately about."

Do not expect others to share, nor to agree with, the strong passion you feel. Passion is a poor substitute for logic. If you want to save an animal from suffering, then go adopt a kitten from your local animal shelter. Or invite a squirrel from the park to move into your underwear drawer.

"Have you ever been inside a "meat factory" and seen the deplorable conditions these animals face?"

Yes, I have, on many occasions. Do you have any objection to hunting, since hunted animals do not likewise suffer lifetime imprisonment?

"Every moment of their short existence is suffering. Have you ever been to a slaughterhouse?"

Yes, I have, on many occasions. What of hunting? What of fish and shellfish harvesting?

"You choose not to think about it because it's easier that way."

I can speak just fine for myself. I'm very sorry if you don't like the images, smells and sounds of the abattoir, but I don't think I need to change my diet to accommodate your discomfort. I'm not uncomfortable with the imagery at all. Don't like it -- don't eat it.

"Ignorance, so that you can have your steak and your pork chops."

Your ignorance argument doesn't work on me, Cin. I know what I'm eating, where it comes from and how it is processed. Can I offer you some Polysorbate 80?

"What you can't see won't hurt you? And when I say "you", I am referring to the majority of the population. It's not personal Dean. And Dean, why would my opinion bother you so much, anyway? Could it be your conscience speaking to you?"

Doesn't bother me. Eat what you like. Just don't expect me, or others, to eat in accordance with your wishes. I prefer to order my own meal, not to let others pick it out for me.

-- Slim Jim (, January 14, 2000.

IMHO, I have arrived on this thought process, consider it or not, if you will. The "Book", said all things were placed for Man to eat. Originally, everything was pure and good. Cows, swine, goats, etc., ate natural grass/weeds without all the chemicals (Man made). The grain in the fields was pure (before man made chemicals). Water was pure (before Man started dumping every man made toxic into it). Each culture has their animal exception, in India, they worship Cows, do you have a cow in your living room? Do you tuck it in at night? Do you have a few hundred as pets to keep them from the slaughter house? No, I suspect you have two cute Terrier Dogs, who ride in your car. Now, as a Slaughter-house employee in a past life, before steroids, meat was meat. Not the chemical induced fallacy we are served now. Animal Rights? Get Real.

-- Hunk Ah (, January 14, 2000.

I don't care how unhealthy it is, I love a nice big fat juicy fucking T-bone, or some Prime rib with a little horseradish on the side. You could tell me that horseradish comes from a horse's frickin brain and I wouldn't give as shit, I'd still eat it, and love every bite.

As far as we know we only get to inhabit these bodies once, and part of the experience is to see what it feels like to abuse the shit out of them, and sample everything that this earthly existence offers. If it turns out that we are reincarnated into a new body, then the next time around we can choose to do it all over again the same way, or try to make our body last as long as possible if we so desire.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), January 14, 2000.

Hawk, I do not remember you as so verbally callous, remember we got kids and women folks around the camp fire.

-- Hells Bells (, January 14, 2000. ARE choosing your next life.

-- Cin (, January 15, 2000.


First time I've ever agreed with Hawk.

Cinloo - No assumption on your sex. Don't care. Everyone gets tagged 'big guy' once in a while. Get over it.

You sure have a holier-than-thou attitude. Your folks musta fucked up too huh.


-- Deano (, January 18, 2000.

Moderation questions? read the FAQ