y2k is a dead issue..the glitches here and there are interesting to read. I looked for them and posted several myself. Though I think that the "fyi" on "this and that ain't workin'" is informative, what "good use/direction" can this forum take? There are many intelligent interesting folks that post here. What subjects other than Y2K can we enlighten each other on? Not that I could, so I humbly submit my question.

-- Vern (bacon17@ibm.net), January 10, 2000

Answers

Won't believe it's dead until it's burried 6 months.

-- Pam (jpjgood@penn.com), January 10, 2000.

Vern, Lusenet (see top) has many other forums, right now, on one post, we are offering enlightment on music (probably too boring for your taste).

-- Other Sites (aremuch@pablum.com), January 10, 2000.

i think there is still much to be gleaned on the subject. as a matter of fact, i think it has gotten easier in the last two days to find related articles. maybe it will get easier in the days to come.

there are lots of other boards, why must people continually harp on why the board is still in business. just go to those other boards. it is a hard habit to break but don't expect us to quit just because you don't see the need for the topic. i am grateful for this board!!!

-- tt (cuddluppy@aol.com), January 10, 2000.

Most of us have followed Y2K for quite some time, so I think we should continue to monitor it until the end of April. If Y2K turns out to be a serious problem, its effect will be felt through the economy and stock market. In my view, the stock market and economy are in a precarious state even without Y2K. The economy and market have always been discussed on this forum, so why not continue to do so regardless of what happens with Y2K.

-- Dave (dannco@hotmail.com), January 10, 2000.

A delicate question, gently phrased. Remember, Y2K refers to an event window: entry into the second millenium.The keywords you employ, "intelligent" and "interesting" are significant in reference to forum contributors (you of course, are in this class). The forum brings a disparate group together to share ideas, anxieties,perceptions as we move forward into a new time frame. Monitor the hackers and script kiddies: really read what these children are saying. For us old timers, we see the messages of change repeated, but these fledgings have been given a new tool by my generation. One far more potent than creating isolated physical incidents. The Net has opened a new venue for expression whether ideological, economic or simply a Narrenschaft ( "Ship of Fools"-is that right? My German is much worse than our Puerto Rican friend purports his English to be). The Forum allows expression. It also provides a verifiable data base of incidents in many cases. If we chose to integrate the smorgasbord of information contained here, it is an invaluable tool of assessment of current events and cultural mindset. It is also real time. You can, and presumably have, verified your posting. So will I. This is one of those ancillary benefits that relate to freedom. No-one except Sys-ops control us here. Good feeling considering the state of society in toto.

-- mike in houston (mmorris67@hotmail.com), January 10, 2000.

A delicate question, gently phrased. Remember, Y2K refers to an event window: entry into the second millenium.The keywords you employ, "intelligent" and "interesting" are significant in reference to forum contributors (you of course, are in this class). The forum brings a disparate group together to share ideas, anxieties,perceptions as we move forward into a new time frame. Monitor the hackers and script kiddies: really read what these children are saying. For us old timers, we see the messages of change repeated, but these fledgings have been given a new tool by my generation. One far more potent than creating isolated physical incidents. The Net has opened a new venue for expression whether ideological, economic or simply a Narrenschaft ( "Ship of Fools"-is that right? My German is much worse than our Puerto Rican friend purports his English to be). The Forum allows expression. It also provides a verifiable data base of incidents in many cases. If we choose to integrate the smorgasbord of information contained here, it is an invaluable tool of assessment of current events and cultural mindset. It is also real time. You can, and presumably have, verified your posting. So will I. This is one of those ancillary benefits that relate to freedom. No-one except Sys-ops control us here. Good feeling considering the state of society in toto.

-- mike in houston (mmorris67@hotmail.com), January 10, 2000.

this is the first thing I clicked on in other LUSENET forums which I had never visited...is there any intelligence outside of TB2000????? What if everyone quit smoking?

greenspun.com : LUSENET : The Government of the United States : One Thread

I have quit smoking after 40 years, but not for health reasons, I only quit to fuck the Liberals and Tax and Spend Democrats out of my share of the Extortion they collect on the sale of tobacco. Maybe I will design Tee Shirts that proclaim "I Quit Smoking Only To F--- The Government". If enough people quit maybe these Liberal Dickheads will starve.

-- Wes Freeman (wfreeman@mindspring.com), January 01, 2000

-- Vern (bacon17@ibm.net), January 10, 2000.

Back then, in less complicated times there really was a barber shop. Chairs around the pot bellied stove. Bench across the wall. One barber. A Men only place for haircuts and talk about "things". It housed discussions from politics, the weather, the water level, through WWII, Korea and Viet Nam. Enemies and friends. Intelligent and not so bright. Banker and assistance recipient. Farmers and merchants. And everybody's son had his first haircut there. And every son began his debating lessons there. Everybody listened, discussed, fought, planned, plotted. Learned and taught. Respected.

-- John Q (sitting@wondering.com), January 10, 2000.

I honestly believe that "the next best chat" is RIGHT HERE! But... only if we can move on to other subjects. This is where our hearts are. There are tens of subjects I would enjoy reading the viewpoints of TB2000 regular posters on.

-- Vern (bacon17@ibm.net), January 10, 2000.

Personally, I'm not leavin' til I get some reasonable explaination as to why so many alegedly unremediated systems (e.g., SMEs, various counties & countries and .gov non-mission-critical) didn't and for the most part don't appear to be crashing (yet). Frankly, I've got a lot of time and emotional capital tied-up here and I'm not quite ready to flush it all away just yet!

-- Yan (no@no.no), January 10, 2000.

Ah Hell Vern, this post isn't going to show up for a while, while I search this thread I found. I have printed it out for select few, told them "Hell, I didn't write it. I just found it, being Information Cow, that I am. On second thought, I will post this now, and go to the bowels of information I have read to post the thread later.

-- Truth takes Stamina (for@allyourlife.com), January 10, 2000.

Vern,

While I am sorely tempted to flame I won't. Let's consider your question for a moment on the supposition that as you quoted"y2k is a dead issue" shall we?

As a retired programmer I am shaken to my very foundation by the fact that any business is still able to open it's doors. As an ex-reactor operator while in the Navy I am totally in awe that the lights are still on. As an ex-employee of several large banks and pharmaceutical companies I am amazed that I can withdraw money from an ATM and fill a prescription at my pharmacy. Everything appears to be working. However, I can't agree with you that "y2k is a dead issue" and here's why.

It just plain doesn't feel right. I don't want chaos, I don't want the lines to go down. And I sure don't want the world to end. Bluntly, I'm too spoiled and too comfortable! I can only relate my gut feeling about Y2K. It is that something is very fishy about the entire scenario. I'll admit it - I'm paranoid. Something feels wrong. A veteran detective with 20 years on the force can usually feel when something is right or wrong - gut instinct. The head physician on a given shift in the emergency room relies on that same gut instinct during an emergency. It all comes with experience. My experience leaves me feeling the way I do. I don't like this feeling and I don't enjoy feeling this way. But I have these past xperiences. they define who I am. I can't simply dismiss what I feel is a real problem because the media states that everything is A-OK. I know what can go wrong and I can see it going wrong. I know it takes a bit of time for a system to break down. Bad data tends to accumulate and when processing time comes the system breaks down. I think a lot of truly critical systems were fixed. But I also think many systems have to to manual operations and my worst fear is that many systems simply turned back their clocks to 1972 in order to keep working while "remediation" is under way.

Any intelligent person can see the interdependence between society and computers. One can't live without the other. Not in the manner we are used to. And that rotten old gut feeling says not only do we as citizens not know what is happening, we may in fact be the unknowing victims of a government and corporate news blackout. Paranoid? I think not. This premise is based on history.

So what can this forum continue to do to be constuctive? It can spit out little pieces of the puzzle. The Harbor Guy tells us that containerized ship movement is not happening as per usual in the Newark Bay. We hear about a small power outage here and there. We read quotes from the head of the IEEE council saying something is rotten in Denmark and systems will soon fail.

Then what we do is what we do best Vern. We think. We try to fit the pieces of the puzzle together. We dismiss the obvious scum floating on the surface. We consider what appears to be many minor events on a larger scale trying to put this entire mess into a singular model our minds can be comfortable with.

I apologize for not really considering your "y2k is a dead issue" comment as valid. I'm sorry Vern, but I can't do that. And again, it's not because I insist on being a doomer for doomer's sake. I just have this gut feeling. And it's awfully strong at this point. I really do hope I am making too many assumed connections and that I am wrong. I really do.

-- Witch Doctor (bobmarley@hotmail.com), January 10, 2000.

I'll call Yan and raise him a few hospitals I know.

-- Carlos (riffraff1@cybertime.net), January 10, 2000.

There "She Blows". I didn't write it, nor invent it. There are other Scientists reports, if you have the fortitude, to pursue it. Me, sucking on well water. http://www.sonic.net/~kryptox/politics/carton.htm

-- Truth Takes Stamina (for@allyourlife.com), January 10, 2000.

Some consider it a dead issue, some don't. I don't.

Never expected the world to come to a crashing halt on January one...nine days ago. I do expect significant changes through out the balance of the year and beyond...some even computer related. The world is heating up...both figuratively and physically.

I'm really looking forward to some future time when the folks that post here to argue and naysay decide to get a life and get another hobby such as stamp collecting. Pre-2K I could understand that they were spending time here generously donating their time, posting to save the gullible from being taken advantage of by us "prepper" types. Now, I figure they've got nothing better to do or enjoy arguing for it's own sake.

I believe there's lots of reasons to maintained a "preparedness stance. Went to the store today and added several items to my preps (4 dozen AA's, 8lb. coffee, a better scanner antennae, new CB antennae) and checked out several more I want to add here soon. I appreciate being able to share information and learn from others. I've had a "preparedness" stance for 20 years and have no intention of stopping now....especially since the world is a much more volitle and dangerous place than it was.

-- Don Kulha (dkulha@vom.com), January 10, 2000.

This forum continues to exist to allow us to experience pain and inflict pain on others! hehehe -- just joking.

Good post, Witch doctor. I actually found myself agreeing with you. I would be good to find out the truth about all of this.

Of course it would be possible that the engineers and software programers just missed it (at least the one's we listened to). There was an interesting article posted earlier by Peter de Jager that attempted to explain why the failure rate was much lower than was expected. There was also the fact that we "etrapolated" our computer dependence on to the 3rd world nations that for the most part are accustomed to regular infrastructure failures and manual workarounds. I suppose, little by little, the "history" or y2k will eventually come out.

-- JoseMiami (caris@prodigy.net), January 10, 2000.

There is another factor. From time immemorial man has hungered to know the future and to influence powers that shaped his destiny that seemed, otherwise, beyond his control.

Some pray. Some read tarrot cards or chicken entrails. Some paint on cave walls. Some spit on dice. Some read the Wall Street Journal, others Nostradamus.

TB2000 privides me with just enough of a feeling of "intelligence" on trends that may extend into the future to whet my whistle. Maybe, just maybe, I can take action now to be in a better position to weather or take advantage of those trends.

The forum is good mojo.

-- anon (anon@anon.calm), January 10, 2000.

Personally, I'm not leavin' til I get some reasonable explaination as to why so many alegedly unremediated systems (e.g., SMEs, various counties & countries and .gov non-mission-critical) didn't and for the most part don't appear to be crashing (yet).

There are several possibilities:

The systems don't have any date-dependent logic in them.

The systems are already compliant.

The systems are failing but are being fixed without anyone noticing.

The systems are failing but are being worked-around while a fix is in the works, all without anyone noticing.

Choosing to believe that any or all of these explanations are "reasonable" is perhaps the key to the great amount of surprise and shock we've been witnessing.

-- (duh@duh.duh), January 10, 2000.

Wild Weasel-- You said (much more eloquently) exactly what I meant in my post. We need everyone's posts of the problems happening all over so that we can form our opinions on the trends. If in 6 months the world is still chugging along, I'll be ready to stop worrying about y2k.

-- Pam (jpjgood@penn.com), January 10, 2000.

Vern, you quite obviously know J*ck S*it about business systems.

Go.

You won't be sorely missed.

-- lisa (lisa@work.now), January 10, 2000.

We're on a Y2K forum because we want to talk about Y2K. It's really that simple. Y2K is not a dead issue. For you, maybe, but not for us. We're still examining the problem and the process. No big mystery as to what we're doing here.

-- Mara (MaraWayne@aol.com), January 10, 2000.

Here's the more obvious ones Duh:

- Failures/corruptions are not being forthright reported.

- Failures/corruptions have not yet become evident.

- Failures/corruptions have not yet occurred.

And for completeness, here's two more:

- A miracle happened.

- Y2K was a big hoax.

-- Devil's Advocate (@ .), January 10, 2000.

I can't answer your question, but I'm having an absolutely fascinating discussion over here in logic and reality.

You're welcome to join in.

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), January 10, 2000.

Vern, I'm a techie, and what is going on now is absolutely fascinating to me. It may not tie in with your interests, but it sure does with mine.

-- Peter Errington (petere@ricochet.net), January 10, 2000.

As Mara said, it really doesn't have to serve a purpose, Y2K is a very interesting subject that we like to discuss, and it probably will be for quite some time. I like seeing how other people view the world, especially the strange and unusual perspectives that you don't get from Ted Koppel or Dateline MSNBC. Also, I really appreciate the efficiency and quality of research that is delivered here from a lot of good people putting their heads together. Many people know how to get information from their neighborhoods and daily experiences that the rest of us wouldn't normally get, and the result is a lot of interesting topics coming from places such as Australia, London, the Lone Star state of Texas, or maybe even the city you live in. And it gets here faster than anywhere else too.

-- Hawk (flyin@high.again), January 10, 2000.

I e-mailed Mike Adams as follows:

Dear Mike,

I believe you are leaving Y2K too soon.

As an investigative reporter of top caliber you may be missing the biggest Y2K story. What happened is not explicable by remediation alone. There is a "Kafka" mystery going on. The US spent bilklions and did no better than Italy of Ukraine or..... Can't you smell something funny??? What really happened? Why the mystery???

Why is the Gov and media so silent on the cause of the miracle???? How did China pull it off?

Strangest of all why are you quitting after so splendid a job?

You could become more famous than Sherlock Holmes if you pull this rabbitt out of the hat.

With admiration and hope this E-mail may make you reconsider. ----------------

Therefore the job is not done yet. The film "The Matrix" referred to in the link offered by "Interested Spectator" above is quite in point as to what is happening to us.

-- aldo (aldo@uneco.org), January 10, 2000.

Vern,

You can easily start your own Greenspun forum on any topic of your choosing.

For my part, the Y2K story isn't over. So I'll continue to observe. April, should be enough to "see." Or not.

This forum will remain, as long as there is "community" interest. Then it will either morph, or die, or change completely.

Diane

(BTW... The gut uneasy feeling churns as well).

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), January 10, 2000.

IMHO it's a great place for people to ask stupid questions...

-- Uncle Bob (UNCLB0B@AOL.COM), January 11, 2000.

This forum is FUN! That's why nobody wants to leave!

-- Marie (pray4peace@compuserve.com), January 11, 2000.

I am amazed at two things:

1) The lack of APPARENT major problems. There are a lot of problems, but none seem to be "show-stoppers" so far. Are other problems building, or are problems being swept under the rug, to become apparent later? As a person with over thirty years's TECHNICALLY ORIENTED experience (aerospace, electronics, computer hardware) including about fifteen years programming experience (business oriented), again I am amazed that things APPEAR to be going so relatively smoothly.

Aldo put his finger on it:

What happened is not explicable by remediation alone. There is a "Kafka" mystery going on. The US spent bilklions and did no better than Italy of Ukraine or..... Can't you smell something funny??? What really happened? Why the mystery???

Why is the Gov and media so silent on the cause of the miracle???? How did China pull it off?

2) From under what rocks did all the "new" pollies crawl from? Most of the old posters have disappeared, to be replaced by a passle of pussilanimous, smug, condescending, pussies far outnumbering the few old pollies like Decker, Flint, et al, with their oh-so "innocent" questions seeking "enlightenment" as to when us "doomers" are going to cry "mea culpa", flagelate ourselves, and don hair shirts.

-- A (A@AisA.com), January 11, 2000.

Supposidly, China`s software is 90% pirated. How could they be all remediated?

-- Earl (earl.shuholm@worldnet.att.net), January 11, 2000.

I am fairly new here, mainly because I just got back on line in November last year. I consider this forum to be my only 'Real' source of news, in addition to links posted here. I guess I would be considered a lurker, though I have posted two or three times. I would post more, but the fine people here always beat me to it-their vigilance surpasses mine.

What amazes and confounds me is the number of posters who come here and say "Y2K is over...why are you people still talking about this?...why don't you drop it and do or discuss something else now..." My question to them is "Why are you coming here at ALL?" If you think it is over take your own advice and leave us alone.

I don't believe it is over. But, even if it is, events will convince me one way or the other. Certainly, not the bleatings of the pollies. They think we are wasting our time. But, I suppose theirs is well spent in coming here and speaking into the air.

-- Kyle (fordtbonly@aol.com), January 11, 2000.

Read through the pages of this site --- The Dental Amalgam Issue --- then try to tell yourself that we are living in an open society.

-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), January 11, 2000.

Dear Vern Bacon17....

Actually, you are exactly right about the interesting folks that post here. They are the REAL reason I come here - to converse with a large number of intelligent, thinking people.

Here in this forum, it doesn't matter if we are red, yellow, black, white, male, female, fat, thin, bald, smelly (?!), or a myriad of other things that keep many from socializing to the fullest extent that used to be possible years ago. I don't have to be anything but open to input from others and just as I allow others to express their disagreements with me, so shall I...

We're all really sort of willing victims of the techno-age. But those free-thinkers among us still have enough of that "Papillon" in us to "cop a 'tude" about stuff such as Y2K and those who so glibly poo-poo it's impact or the lack thereof.

It takes a strong mind to resolve to go against the other fish swimming mindlessly to a place they are "compelled" to go towards. I have always been the one to ask "why?" And "what if?" Nothing wrong with that. I don't think I was wrong - I'm just not totally right yet about this Y2K bizarrity. And neither are you. Why does something have to become dead? Science Fiction by the very words in it's title should be dead, I suppose. But, we eat it up and do you know why? Because "what if" it WERE to become so? "What if?"

The reason, I think, we are still lapping up Y2K is because some of us truly do grasp how much computers run our lives. It's a pretty big "what if" and I am not going to sit back numbly chewing my wad of cud I've been given by most info sources.

It's not just about Y2K - I guess it's just a symbol or banner of my decision to go against the flow of dull complacency to which so many have resigned themselves.

-- Ric (ice163@worldnet.att.net), January 11, 2000.

Some of the most interesting Global information comes to thread a fabric here at TB2000. The fabric changes like the weather. If you study the fabric of integrated threads, a vision of the future can come of it. You have to be savvy enough to distinguish threads with integrity as to integrate your own readable quilt. A cornucopia is never discarded. Too many accomplished intellectuals intermeshing with braindead idiots makes for challenging times here at TB2000, however, the complainers, if they realize they are the problem and remove their input, can greatly improve this forum. You generally don't find the brains complaining when amongst themselves. Do us all a favor and keep mediators like myself from having to post at all.

-- Feller (feller@wanna.help), January 11, 2000.

For those of us in the business, problems are happening... but the grid is holding, I haven't yet been alerted to contamination of the local water supply... the banks are so far only taking our money by triple, and more billing of our credit cards...

Shit is happening, not an Infomagic, but on a Yourdon scale...

I'm still here because AP & Reuters don't care to report that a SAP conversion bit the dust, or that as chem plants start to roll back on- line, dumps are happening, or that for those that set the date back to stay in business today, how long is that really going to work, or let us talk about the switches that keep the messages flowing here that rolled over ok, but when they see 2/29/00...

AGAIN... only a small percentage of failures were expected on rollover itself... and if you consider what tiny percentage of those will be reported until the crap really hits the fan...

55% of all problems are occurring or will be occurring in the next few months... nearly 40% occured before rollover... which they did...

The fat lady is just warming up...

Any old Cobol hackers with some recent experience with the new lingos... if your out there, the e-mail is real...

-- Carl (clilly@goentre.com), January 11, 2000.

For another 50 answers from a few days ago see:

I'm curious: Why are *you* still checking this forum?

-- Interested Spectator (is@the_ring.side), January 11, 2000.

I love this forum, am totally addicted to it, and will remain. Why because when I try to read the local rag sheet, or watch the 6:00PM news, I feel I am being fed tons of "FLUFF" nothing or consequence, it is dull, and boring to tears. The news media grabs onto something and they talk it to death. Turn on the news at any hour and it is the same old crap over and over. The OJ Simpson trial for instance, the Clinton sexcapes, the Little boy in Florida. All of these are news at the start, and should be followed, however after thousands of repetitions they are sickening. And you wonder, what is really happening while they are spending so much time on this? Then I come her and I find tibits of news from Yahoo, USA today, Reuters, and many others. In other words, I can get the news I am interested in from here, it is unedited, It is interesting, and when something unusual whether Y2K related or not, it is brought out. Also, the human side of the issue is displayed, which the tube and rag sheet does not do. For God's sake keep this form going, keep posting, keep arguing, keep letting your feelings shine. I love this place and would feel very empty without it.

-- Notforlong (fsur439@aol.com), January 11, 2000.

Notforlong, TOUCHE! I guess I am a scab. I come here to find links to real news. I wish I could be the one to find the latest relevant story, but these guys on here always beat me to it. Not complaining if none of you guys mind. Don't mean to be a lurker but I don't want to duplicate other posts. If I do please forgive me, fellow doomers (?), Kyle

-- Kyle (fordtbonly@aol.com), January 11, 2000.

To all:

IMHO, for an absolutely exsquisite example, see snooze button's thread below, titled, "The Great Deception..." -- I mean the whole thread.

-- eve (123@4567.com), January 11, 2000.

Oops...above should read "exquisite"

I...uh....haven't had my coffee yet...yeah, that's right! That's the ticket! Where's my coffee?

-- eve (123@4567.com), January 11, 2000.

Not that it's any of my business....but.....What purpose does/can this forum continue to serve?

And of course one correct response is: Place a period after the word "business", and go find yourself a forum that better serves your purpose. Seems pretty self-explanatory, eh?

-- Donna (moment@pacbell.net), January 11, 2000.

Humm, (live@life.com),

You watched the 6:00 newz lately? The lead story is usually about the latest murder or mayhem.

At least here, discussions can range from Y2K or not... the latest BBC international reports... to fruitcake. Truly "broad-bandwidth."

;-D

You have the choice to leave, rather than snipe. Exercise your right to choose! (And please leave, if you can't/won't contribute).

Diane

-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), January 11, 2000.

I found this forum 1/2/2000. Wish I had known it was here earlier. I come back because I enjoy the occasional post by the more intelligent doomers and pollies, and am just plain fascinated by the psychology of everyone else.

-- Bemused (and_amazed@you.people), January 11, 2000.

to not for long, i too come her (if she'll let me, funny typo, you know where my mind is....this IS a barber shop right?).

Anyway, you are right...i got sucked into the Clarence thomas versus Anita hill fight & spent hours glued to the tv scree. then i read an article about it in the Nation....that wrote about the future and the need for an ever-continuing SPECTACLE....iraq, iran, bosnia...REAL people have DIED & SUFFERED so the west could have it's spectacle & eat it too (ratings equals dollars). So INever watch the news, except by accident.

-- INever watch the netWORKon-theMASSES (inevercheckmy@onebox.com), January 11, 2000.