(nt)

-- Perry Arnett (pjarnett@pdqnet.net), January 16, 2000

Answers

MTBE?

-- Hokie (Hokie_@hotmail.com), January 16, 2000.

methyl tert butyl ether, I think it is. a deadly toxin, actually used as an ADDITIVE in most gasolines ..... ostensibly to accomplish what, I do not know; but does reduce the cost of suply per gallon and thus increase profits. it's in the water supply in many many areas, I hear especially in some communities in northen cal. I think jeff rense must have articles on the topic.

-- mrunderhill (prancing@pony.com), January 16, 2000.

Methyl tertiary butyl ether. Additive,(mandated). Serves as oxygen source to help gasoline burn cleaner, thus reducing air pollution. Unfortunately persists in environment (ground water contamination from leaking underground fuel tanks).

-- james hyde (hydesci@gte.net), January 16, 2000.

Toxicity not established (according to the TV show we all apparently watched this eve.) Also, additives tend to increase cost of fuel.

-- james hyde (hydesci@gte.net), January 16, 2000.

missed the tv show, but mtbe as chemical compound is (so I understood) a waste byproduct of other processes (within or without the refining industry, co jnot know) and so if the oil companies can add it, they can reduce the amount of product pre gallon and dispose of waste product for free. must be lots of pros on this board -- RC and others -- with factual knosldge, however.

-- mrunderhill (prancing@pony.com), January 16, 2000.

hey why worry about MTBE in the water when we all slather mineral oil (which is a harmful gasoline byproduct) all over our bodies and it seeps into our pores and probably winds up in our lymph nodes and fatty tissue. sounds fun doesn't it? go to your grocery store and buy some of the neutrogena sesame oil. smells great and is great fun for two. yuk yuk. i couldn't resist.

-- tt (cuddluppy@aol.com), January 16, 2000.

Lived in California till the beginning of 99. Big, controversial issue. MTBE used to be as waste product of the refining process, then ARCO patented it as an "oxygenate" additive to gasoline. EPA mandated oxygenate additives, CA decided to use MTBE. Several States banned MTBE (Alaska, Texas) because of problems, but CA persisted, the political spin given was that it was mandated.

Real testing showed that MTBE caused lower gas mileage and the spewing of formaldehyde (among other things) into the air. The real bad part was that MTBE caused the deterioration of all kinds of seals in gas tanks and older vehicle fuel systems (I remember a large increase in vehicle fires after it was introduced.) In spite of many protests at the State Capitol, Gov. Wilson refused to look at the issue. There were many allegations flying around,but coincidentally after Wilson left office, his wife was appointed to the Board of Arco.

The bigger problem turned out to be the fact that MTBE worked its way out of the gasoline distribution system and into the ground water. I remember a town in central CA that totally lost its water supplies, several wells in Tahoe and Santa Monica being sut down, etc. (One of the reasons we moved).

Since MTBE is an ether, it "clings" to the water and can't be filtered out. This promises to be an enormous problem for California, at least equal in severity to any "doomsday" scenario painted on this board because of Y2K. I did some research into this problem and may have a way of economically removing MTBE at the wellhead. If anyone on this forum is seriously interested, post a real e-mail and I will communicate about this.

-- lurker2 (lurker2@prepared.home), January 16, 2000.

MTBE is a gasoline additive (an oxygenate) that is used to enhance combustion and improve air quality. Because of its presence in all California Phase II Gasoline, MTBE has the potential for widespread environmental distribution, placing animals and ecosystems at risk of exposure. MTBE has relatively high water solubility and vapor pressure and may be toxic; scientists and citizens alike are concerned that air, potable water supplies and recreational water bodies are targets for MTBE contamination. Recently, MTBE has been detected in lakes, reservoirs, and groundwater used as potable water supplies. In some cases, MTBE concentrations have exceeded California state action levels for both "taste and odor" and "human health".

-- Cin (Cinlooo@aol.com), January 16, 2000.

link off.

-- Cherokee (Cherokee@qtmail.com), January 16, 2000.

Saw it! 60 minutes did a 7pm segment on this tonight... scary! 60 MINUTES: Sunday, January 16, 2000: MTBE -It's a chemical added to gasoline to make it burn cleaner that has contaminated ground water in 49 states and is threatening to become a national crisis. Steve Kroft investigates methyl tertiary butyl ether in this double-length segment. http://www.cbs.com/now/section/0,1636,3415-311,00.shtml

-- SA (stillalert@aol.com), January 16, 2000.

So you think this is something new, cause it was on news tonight. Try this on for size http://www.sonic.net/~kryptox/politics/carton.htm I didn't write it, I just read it, along with the other search engines I used on same subject. If you have the open-mindess to do same. Remember the question. If the Government cares so much about our teeth (for God's sake) why do they refuse to pay for the medicine for the elderly who can not afford it? And who die, from lack of medical attention, because their pockets are empty. Your Call...

-- As one human (to@nother.com), January 16, 2000.

Would like more info on removing the stuff from wellhead. Is it something that can be tested for easily? I just ordered a home water test kit for lead, pesticides, nitrates, etc. Will it show up on that?

-- Jay (bustina420@hotmail.com), January 16, 2000.

O/T I know, but are we living longer or dying sooner?

-- ImSo (happy@prepped.com), January 17, 2000.

IM so -

It seems to me that we're living sooner and dying longer these days.

-- Michael (mikeymac@uswest.net), January 17, 2000.

Michael,

I definitely agree that we're living shorter and dying longer.

-- Michael, too (m@m.m), January 17, 2000.

The same morons who pushed thru MTBE now have stickers on the gas pumps here in san francisco that read: WARNING:MTBE has BEEN found BY the STATE of CALIFORNIA to be HAZARDOUS to your HEALTH.

If it wasn't so horrible it'd be funny. The whole governemnt is full of a$$holes.

-- INever (inevercheckmy@onebox.com), January 17, 2000.

The biggest source of MTBE contamination, at least in CA, is from the use on boats of two-cycle outboard motors which discharge about one- third of gasoline unburned into the water. Almost all smaller outboards and jetskis are two-cycle. They are being banned from many lakes and reservoirs.

MTBE causes water to smell awful at low levels so there is likely to be public outcry about that before it reaches chronic toxic levels.

-- Evelyn (equus@barn.now), January 17, 2000.

I believe that there was an attempt to outlaw it as an additive last fall. A Canadian Company that had retooled for California MTBE requirements threatened a big suit if California proceeded based on the fact that the change would render their retooling investment worthless - a violation of trade treaty agreements. So, it was decided to back off.

Because of "clean air" pressures, the special requirements of California in the formulation of gasoline has succeeded in isolating it from free market competition. When everyone else's gasoline was hovering around a dollar, we were paying $1.35-$1.50 locally. Refineries were down within the State and fuel could not be imported. This effected the competitiveness of many California products - particularly those that are greatly dependent upon fuel inputs, such as agriculture. (Fuel to run field equipment and water pumps; fuel to transport product.)

Now we find that additives many of us protested against in the first place due to engine effects and fumes, is poisoning our water. In our rush to "save the environment," we appear to ignore the past disaster's that "absolute" solutions have wrought and greed has promoted.

-- marsh (siskfarm@snowcrest.net), January 17, 2000.

In the early days of MTBE use, it wasn't mandatory and wasn't used by all the oil companies. So it proved a useful way of "fingerprinting" whose gasoline was contaminating groundwater (for instance, Mobil v. Exxon). This tended to come up in situations with dueling gas stations across the same intersection, or individual gas stations which over the years changed management.

If MTBE is in the groundwater, it is probably associated with a leaking gasoline underground storage tank. This dangerous chemical mix was banned to the underground because fire departments wanted the tanks there, less chance of explosion. But single-walled steel tanks and piping, over time, tend to corrode and release their contents.

MTBE travels faster than the other gasoline constituents, so tends to be ahead of the plume. But bear in mind that its presence indicates there are other very poisonous contaminants as well, like benzene.

EPA phased in very strict UST regulations a year ago which I hope will slow these types of incidents from occurring in the future. Replacing or upgrading USTs is very expensive, but I think it is a cost that should have been incurred a very long time ago.

I consider an abundance of sources of clean drinking water to be a national security imperative. But the trend I believe I am seeing in my state, Massachusetts, is to protect a decreasing number of major public water supplies. Individual wells be damned. It would be so easy to poison the large reservoirs on which such a large proportion of our population depends. But it doesn't have to be that way.

-- Brooks (brooksbie@hotmail.com), January 17, 2000.

From what I've seen so far, it sounds as though the primary way for MTBE to contaminate groundwater is through leakage from storage. Does anyone know if MTBE makes it through the fuels system to emissions (ala MTBE rain)?

-- winter wondering (winterwondring@yahoo.com), January 18, 2000.