In a message dated 1/17/2000 4:46:22 PM Central Standard Time, Roleigh.Martin-1@tc.umn.edu writes:

We'll soon see if this is true....

<< > >2000-01-17 11:13:29 EST >***BIG PRICE INCREASES LOOM FOR OIL

Anyone buying gasoline and diesel fuel will see stiff price increases >over the next few weeks, as independent wholesales pass along increasingly >higher costs for products. Wholesale prices, over the last few days, have >risen 5 to 10cts gal, as prices have hit nine-year highs.

Contract prices for gasoline, home heating oil, truck diesel fuel, and >kerosene are quickly approaching 80cts gal, excluding taxes. In fact, just >about every city in the U.S. has at least one supplier pricing one product >in the 80cts. Average prices have moved to the high 70s, but those averages >promise to hit 80cts as the week progresses. The weekend saw some of the stiffest increases in recent weeks. Virtually >every suppliers lifted prices 3-5cts gal. When coupled with the price hikes >that took effect on Thursday and Friday, the overall oil market has >registered a double-digit climb. It has been years since wholesale gasoline and diesel prices have been in >the 80s. A check of OPIS cities reveals at least one supplier with an 80cts >number in virtually every market from Atlanta to Boston to Minneapolis to >Kansas City to Los Angels. Samples: in Milwaukee, Mobil and Shell have unleaded gasoline at 80.5 and >81.5cts, respectively; in Boston, more than 25 percent of those who supply >gasoline to the market are already at 80cts for unleaded, including Citgo, >Exxon, Getty, and Texaco; and in Atlanta, BP has put its unbranded gasoline >price at 82cts gal. There are some Texas markets (San Antonio, for example), where gasoline >and diesel racks are still in the 70s, but the No. 1 oil markets have >eclipsed 80cts gal.

Meanwhile, West Texas crude on Friday hit $28 bbl, a price not seen in >nine years. > Ben Brockwell, bbrockwell@opisnet.com > >>

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Total speculation....no basis whatsoever. (At best a 'rant'...like a broken water faucet. I knew that already...)

1) The first thought which comes to mind is the 1972 Oil Crisis. At that time, 'the Natives were restless' over the Vietnam War and were gaining cohesiveness and momentum in a big way. Remember the national "1 day off work" strike where everybody stayed home to protest the war?...in a way that was meaningful and scared the be-jesus out of the government and corporations.

The-powers-that-be (power elites) didn't like that one little bit...quite expensive. My God...'What if the Natives were to keep this up?....and actually scored a success?' Uh oh, something better be done, now. And it was. In very short order people were more concerned about waiting in line for gas than they were about national agendas. Shootings at gas stations and total chaos for businesses.

That "Oil Crisis" was manufactured; no question about it as later analysis confirmed (contrary to the reports in the media...."It's OPEC! It's there fault.") When in fact, there was an oil glut with more oil tankers oil offshore than at any time in history. Same thing for the 'Natural Gas Crisis' around that time. *Very important* to understand what happened then and (likely) is happening now: you MUST obtain a copy of "The Prize" (Aired on PBS - 8 Part documentary on history of oil & control of it). Oil is the single most strategic resource, and the documentary credibly shows that, inspite of media hype, both World War I and World War II.....were primarily over oil. Contrary to popular myth...wars are not fought over ideologies (the cover story to induce followership) they are fought over resources. Wait till you see the PBS documentary before making-up your mind or jumping to any conclusions. The importance of that documentary cannot be overstated...an absolute *must see* to understand the root causes, effects and influences of "oil", and "global actors'.

(2) Perhaps Y2K caused more people to 'question their government' and 'What, really....are we doing?" If you read the newsgroups, email forums, etc....there has been a growing awareness and great dissatisfaction with government.....resulting from a string of insults to the American People - and we are not the only one's who see this.....foreign governments/peoples are not as stupid as we 'think'...(or have been led to believe).

This change in perception of the American public has been due to a long string of abuses which 'just keep going and going' like the Energizer Bunny. For those who are old enough to remember, here's the short list (not in chronological order:)

Recent info released on "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" (History Channel); Watergate; Whitewater-Gate; ZipperGate; Iran Contra (Regan-Bush administration's deal with Iyatola to keep hostages, to discredit Carter...to win the election- in exchange for weapons. It worked.) The Church Report (CIA), MK-Ultra, Montauk Project, Phidelphia Experiment, The Grace Report (Govt waste), San Jose Mercury News expose on CIA involvement in cocaine; MENA, Park-o- Meter (Arkansas); NAFTA, GATT, NWO, Savings & Loan Scam, Banking Crisis (never reported) Group 5, The Franklin Cover-Up, "Trance Formation of American', HAARP, Recent info released on the killing of Martin Luther King; Vince Foster; Ron Brown; Ruby Ridge, Donald Scott, WACO, the truth about Oklahoma City Bombing, TWA-800, recent reports on the environment (ice core samples, National Geographic report on "The Great Extinctions"); Global Heat Balance/Crazy weather world around; Area-51, the ET situation, Greys and Abductions. COX report on transfer of tech to China. (Please...don't pretend folks...we all hear the above reports) even if we turn our backs in dis-belief and return to our jobs, soap operas, etc...does not mean, 'these problems are not there'. ('Just because you don't believe in conspiracy...doesn't mean that someone isn't out to get you'...that idea. Just take a look at the history of wars, slavery, conquering and domination. That IS planet Earth, and has been for quite some time.)

3) Perhaps the most disturbing to the power elites and governments everywhere: The Internet, which enhances people's ability to communicate, report their own news, form loose alliances and associations, work together, etc. It represents the empowerment of people through information and communication, and consequent loss of governement/corporate media control.

That all these things (and more) have been going on is "business as usual"...no biggie. But that people are becoming *aware* of these things IS cause for concern. It changes perceptions...just like when the American public knew the truth about Vietnam. And that experience is why "war is no longer reported or shown" except in the most superficial way, because it motivates people to respond. Or question. Or make demands that things change...if and when the Public can see the consequences. Simple solution: 'Don't report - don't show'....and it works. The perfect cover is: "Our boys are at risk, and the enemy would be put at an advantage..." Uh huh.

Desert Storm Scorecard: USA - 48 (25 our own 'friendly fire' or personal screwups. 'Opps...left the brake off!') IRAN - 300,000 (+ 1.5 million extended deaths of children/elderly)

That is why we only are shown glitzy high-tech "sterile laser bombs blowing up unfeeling bridges and building air vents".....we do NOT see, nor are we shown the reality, the truth, of the *after effects* of what happened in Iran with the depleted uranium (more radioactivity than Hiroshima/Nagasaki..just no loud 'flash-bang'); the 1.5 million children and elderly dying after Iran's infrastructure, power grid, power gen, sewer, hospitals, bridges were bombed 'back to the stone age'...and the cruel punishment of sanctions - on civilians, children, elderly, pedestrians...who quite frankly, don't have a damn thing to do with the decisions of the power elites in either country...US or IRAN. They never have. And the list goes on and on. Want to pretend like you haven't heard any of this?

(4) Why would this (new oil crisis) be happening now, of all times? Shessh! We are not more than 17 after Jan 1 roll-over...(even more speculation, NOT 'an answer'):

- Y2K impacts in petro chemical industry (and/or associated industries) are greater, here and elsewhere, than what is being reported?....and 'those who know' can see the handwriting on the wall?

- There has been great concern, both in Russian, in China, Mid-East and elsewhere...that "the US" (only a perception - actually the power elite's - which have no aliegence to any country - see COX Report) is monopolizing the world (through trade agreements 'NWO', NAFTA, GATT, IMF, WB activity) and are destroying the sovereignty of all nations in one fell swoop....including the US. Perhaps this is as good a time as any for Oil cartels, Mid-East, etc. to flex whatever leverage they have left?

- Perhaps the massive efforts and monies spent on Y2K, and influx of cash printed by the Fed Reserve and central banks, here and elsewhere....needs to be recollected, reabsorbed? Maybe fears of inflation because everything is going "so well"...and productive capacity has been increased worldwide, due to "IT house cleaning" in all countries, industries. That should only increase productive capacity...and competition for markets...and threaten "comfortable profit centers". Or is it just 'irrational exuberance'?

- Perhaps it's just that the 'boom' economy is doing so well, that on a global level (just like what happens in stock markets and commodities futures) "It's profit taking time"? *drooling* Massive transfer of wealth and consolidation of power (mergers in telecommunications, etc)...again.

- (I know some won't like this one...but why don't you do your homework before you open your mouth...alright?) For those who know, there has been strong pressure and momentum building for govt release of the ET information...at least admitting we are not alone. (CSETI/X-PACC). This cannot be allowed, as it would utterly transform the power structure...and there would be no turning back. For all practical purposes, it would be opening a doorway to Infinity...as far Little Earth Human is concerned. It would be the end of "The King of the Mountain Game" in our little sand box (cat litter box?) on this side of the galaxy. ("Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." Martin Luther King)

- The recent reports on the ice-core samples, freak weather world around, National Geographic report on "The Great Extinctions" (present rate of species destruction is greater than any of the past Great Extinctions; 55% of species killed in last 250 years from man's activities). 40% of arctic has melted and expected to be gone in less than 30 years. Perhaps it's time to slow this down...and implement some form of Alternative III?

- Breakdown of superpowers? ('end' of Russia/US Cold war)..has lead to general state of political instability...where more lower level thugs are now also grasping for Power in the new vacuum (mimicking their 'elders') for regional control, profits, egos, etc. Yeltsin recently deploying 10 Topal missiles 'as a gesture of thanks for all the help received with Y2K'; China's leaders twice stating (very recently) "War with the US is inevitable...because it is monopolizing the world".

These are not "answers".....they are contributing factors. Period. All the above is *pure speculation*....just turning ideas over like a manure pile and looking at them. Not saying or suggesting anything is "so" or "not so" - because I really don't know. I do know that the root causes are far more complex and not as obvious as the surface appearance of things; the 'symptoms'. Remember the "tip of the ice berg?". What's below....? About 90% of the real story.

So, only shared to stimulate the imagination of the reader, and perhaps someone else (like Dale Way?) who might offer a much more precise, complete and better reasoned assessment, including factual a basis.

Without even 'being out of the woods' on Y2K...the combination of all the above...could throw the world into chaos. And the question always is: "And who benefits?" Why are these things allowed, or instigated? Follow the money trail...for that is the only thing which truly motivates humans these days. And if you're lucky, you might get to 1/2 the truth.

Or is it just time for another Elliot wave? Chaos theory in motion?

As with everything...something to ponder and wonder about. And don't believe me...and certainly not any 'expert'. Do you own homework for a change and make your own assessment...alright?

Ala Dave Letterman Show: (And the #1 Reason for 'why' all this is happening? *Is because industrial hemp was made illegal in 1937*. Please do read http://www.bashar.com/GSP/door-sol.htm if you think I'm kidding). It is, and always has been, the root cause of the problems we see in energy, wars over oil, environmental destruction.. And, it still is a very big part of 'the solution' which still needs to be acted upon. (Maybe also has something to do with the trashing of Tesla's works, and all the classified military technologies too.....that could be used to solve human life support needs....but who cares about that? There are short term profits to be made for a very few, and *that* is what counts.....not people, not environments, not future generations.)

Frankly speaking....I'm sick of the suffering, the lying, the denial, ignoring, and lack of caring. There are too many children dying and too many mothers crying. It's right in front of your faces people....find out about industrial hemp, and "why" it was made illegal. Are you that stupid...? It's a weed...and it costs more than gold? Now THAT's control folks. Quit complaining, get your ass in gear, get educated, quit looking to outside authority to solve all these problems...and start co-operating. Start taking personal responsibility. Empower people by educating others and sharing knowledge. Quit marketing your way to the future...and start doing what needs to be done because it needs to be done.....do and deliver. Get your priorities straight. It's your world too.

"The only thing more expensive than education...is ignorance. And when it comes to the global environment, we are in a race between education...and catastrophe."

(Also see: http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002I7J)

"Knowledge without action...still appears as ignorance."

Anyone else care to share their baseless speculations? Penny for your thoughts...

Steve

Global Strategies Project http://www.bashar.com/GSP SMeyers33@aol.com

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers@aol.com), January 18, 2000

Answers

!. I don't remember being at war with Iran. Desert Storm?? I thought that was Iraq!! 2. I REALLY hate being called 'folks' or 'people' and turn off as soon as I see that. Sorry, you lost me as a reader.

Taz

-- Taz (Tassi123@aol.com), January 18, 2000.

Well stated Steve, I absolutely feel the same about these topics and my own investigations have taken me in similar directions over the past couple of years. Add to this the fact that we now have more people in prison than any other industrialized nation at a staggering cost to the public, many of those people in there are victims of idiotic laws for victimless crimes and society would be enriched and not endangered if they were freed to help care for their families and contribute rather than be a burden to everyone else (and hmmmmm, prisons are now becoming primarily privately owned companies) one more thing, an overwhelming majority of those "victimless crime" victims are in prison for marijuana violations. this war on drugs crap is almost more than I can take too. Drug free school zones?????? Yea right!

by The Idaho Observer

Schools all over the nation post "Drug-Free School Zone" signs all over their campuses.

Let us take a look.

In the November 30, 1998 edition of Time magazine a feature article entitled "The Age of Ritalin" reported that in 1995, just under "half a million prescriptions were written for controlled substances like Ritalin...for children between the ages of 3 and 6."

By 1997, the number had reportedly jumped to over 800,000 perscriptions being written for children taking mood-altering psychotropics such as Ritalin, Prozac, Zoloft and Paxil.

The Physician's Desk Reference, 1998, page 1897 under "Ritalin," states that, "Ritalin should be given cautiously to emotionally unstable patients, such as those with a history of drug dependence or alcoholism, because such patients may increase dosage on their own initiative."

A person with a drug dependence history knows a good drug when he does one. According to Time, Ritalin has also become a street drug. Students have been known to pestle the pills into a powder and snort it or sprinkle it over their weed and smoke it.

Kids who are being prescribed Ritalin are saving some back because they can sell them to kids who don't have a prescription for at least $5 a pill.

The same book, pages 859-863, contains everything you ought to know about Prozac before you allow somebody you love to be ingesting the fluoro toxin. The pages also give the same warnings about prescribing the substance to persons with a history of drug dependence or alcoholism.

Drug-Free School Zone? If 800,000 elementary school-aged kids are being prescribed a mood-altering drug such as Ritalin or Prozac, the chances that there is even one public school in the nation without at least one student on at least one of those drugs is pretty small.

It has been reported that there are schools with over 10 percent of their student bodies going to class under the influence of state- prescribed psychotropic drugs like Ritalin.

There can be no doubt that such drugs are in fact drugs and that nearly a million kids show up to school every day after taking their state-prescribed "happy pills."

Please tell me how a school full of kids stoned on Ritalin, Zoloft and Paxil is a drug-free zone? Please tell me how kids stoned on weed and kids stoned on state prescribed drugs are different, other than the fact that state prescribed drugs are the common thread among kids who go on homicidal rampages that kill and injure their fellow students and destroy public property.

Drug-Free School Zone? You tell me. It sounds like another example of Orwellian Doublespeak to me because a more accurate sign would be, "Drugged-at-School Zone."

I'm with Steve on this one, we need to wake up as many people as possible. This is still our country for now, and anyone that thinks the constitution is still an instrument of protection they can use should really look away from uncle sams shining face and read the handwriting on the wall. do some homework. Stepping off the soapbox for the next person.......

Laurie

-- Laurie in Idaho (laurelayn@yahoo.net), January 18, 2000.

Good call Taz.......yes, spelling errors. That's whats wrong with the world. Actually, you passed the test. I just wanted to see if anyone was paying attention to the central issues. Nice to see folks zero in on the pivotal issues, and thanks for pointing it out. Do you know if this forum has anyway to re-edit innocuous mistakes?

I humbly stand corrected for the errors of my ways. Still, the world remains as it does outside your kitchen window...doesn't it? Even if I can't spell, have attention deficit syndrom and lex-dixia.

but i still try my best...

steve

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 18, 2000.

PS. to Taz.

Quit placing responsiblity outside yourSelf Taz. "I" didn't lose you...you're already lost in denial is you can dismiss all that was pointed to in my rant, and focus in on something to trivial...addressing none of the issues whatsoever. By the way...how old are you?

Also, a study of the nature of "denial" might be both in order...and enlightening. I didn't cause those problems, but I am deeply concerned about humanity and my fellow man/women, children, the environment and other species (it is a beautiful world...isn't it?) and I am very concerned about where all this is heading.

Besides, this is America...and part of that is people speaking up, and having vigorous discussion of the issues. In the end...we all benefit by sharing out best....and LISTENING to others. Nothing to be afraid of, because you are always at choice.

comprendo Kimosabe?

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 18, 2000.

OPPS! There I go again. Dang! I made *(4) more* spelling errors!!! Heaven Forbid!! What next? Can you find them? Sorry, this time, i beat you to the punch. Next subject...

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 18, 2000.

Well, Steve, you just might do a little better if you'd pay attention. If you would read before you rant you'd find that it is reporting on exactly what is happening now.

It is not speculation.......heating oil is being sold for 80 cents/gal wholesale, before taxes. But, you claim it to be

Total speculation....no basis whatsoever. (At best a 'rant'...like a broken water faucet. I knew that already...)

Since you knew already that this was total speculation, it doesn't say a whole lot about the remainder of your post.

-- (4@5.6), January 18, 2000.

Steve,

Couldn't agree more. Folks, (had to) there's a lot of info out there. You try and get every detail perfect. The main points are what they are.

-- Gregg (g.abbott@starting-point.com), January 18, 2000.

taz! dear oh dear...

Steve, I want to thank you most sincerely for the above piece. It truly mirrors my own thinking - for the alst three years or so I have been on some sort of quest to get to the bottom of *all* that you have outlined above. I don't know what prompted me to do this but the need is there nevertheless :o)

More later. Got a soccer game to play, god help my legs...

please keep in touch

Andy

-- Andy (2000EOD@prodigy.net), January 18, 2000.

Uh oh. Looks like a 'touchy nerve' was poked here. Shame on me. That's it, focus in on the messenger, and throw away the message. And oh my...aren't you sitting on a lofty pearch.

Forget me...and focus up on the issues. They are far more important.

Care to offer your own analysis/speculation? I said "speculation" only as a legal disclaimer. Yes, that's it...zero in one thing you don't like...and discard the rest. Very smart indeed! It gives you (you think) the excuse you are already looking for...to dismiss all the other issues addressed, which are as bothersome for *anyone* to look at...not just you, not just me. Understand?

Denial is just such a wonderful thing, isn't it?

Now, would you care to take your pick of any of the other issues addressed...and go on your own rant? And enlighten us all? You know..make your own contribution? Or would you like to continue to sit in your arm chair taking easy 'pot-shots'...which take no thinking whatsoever? And most are brainless "dud...!" insights anyway. So what? Where does your most insightful reply leave us? Think it leaves you "one up"?

The idea is to get to the issues...not intellectual sword fighting over little boy's fragile ego trips.

Let me put it this way: Your/our world is dying. What do you think about that? see: http://www.bashar.com/GSP/sciwarn1.htm and tell me what you think about all those issues?

Or, what do you know about...that would make a better world for everyone?

Or, what would you like to discuss beside personalities...and trivial issues...which only lead us off into some meaningless side track, handing on the end of a plank in the middle of space?

What do you think are the most important things for everyone to understand these days?....given the political, environmental, energy, future sustainability issues Humanity is now facing?

Got any major insights? I sure need them so I can find some peace of mind. And don't worry about me too much...the world is far more important than this little flea called "me". I'm really not your problem.

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience , but where he stands at time of challenge & controversy."

Now what do we do Chief?

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 18, 2000.

As an old timer [somebody please hand me down my walkin' cane. thanky'], Steve, I gotta say that you have mischaracterized Taz. She is one of the truly MORE aware folks here, not less. She is REALLY aware of denial and has managed to push it MOSTLY out of her life, (I say mostly because none of us ever truly remove it completely)and has contributed quite a bit of understanding to the forum. Jest settin' (ouch! Dang, droped my cane, bent over and can't get back up) the record straight (unlike my back)

Night train

-- jes a tired ol arthritic (ouch) footballer (nighttr@in.lane), January 18, 2000.

Night Train,

First...i hear what you are saying, thank you. I don't know Taz from Adam...so nothing meant specific about "her" as an individual. What I look at is the response itself. For someone to focus in on a single word, "Folks" and say, "you lost me there for the rest of anything you had to say"...doesn't not indicate either intelligence or sincerity in my book. I put up with all kinds of 'junk' as i read, but what counts is: what IS the person saying that has value?

To dismiss out of hand, in a knee-jerk reaction to a single word..whether from Taz or anyone else, is a bit bothersome...that so many issues which have such far reaching consequences *in terms of human suffering*...to be dismissed, not considered for what they are, for what they mean *to all of us*....

Sorry....that's the very level of mentality, rationalizing, excuse making, turning away, trivializing...which has us where we are today. Period. And we better quit kidding ourselves about all this.

Yes, these issues are disturbing; yes, they bring up uncomfortable feelings; yes...it reminds us how powerless and duped we have been, and how numbed-out and hypnotized we really are. But the answer is not to remain in denial, but rather listen to what we know is right in our hearts, and start acting like it. And the first step is to start talking...honestly. And yes, feeling, for *that* is what is missing in this world. No genuine outrage at what is happening to *Y/OUR* world. Therefore, no real motivation to do anything, except mentalize and posture about all this and that in our empty typewriter brain sitting on top of our shoulders...completely disconnected from our heart, our gut, and our Knowingness.

Maxim: "A matter has to be expressed, to be resolved"

That's what all this is about...to start a process of education, and discussion *on the issues themself*, and honestly looking at the problems facing *all of us"...not tearing each other down...and looking at realistic solutions which are available. How else is it going to get done? Big Daddy government? The international bankers? Doubtful.

No. Wide spread education, and the courage to think...and caring. And then acting like it.

If anyone thinks all the above problems are just going to dissappear...think about this:

"...And when it gets physical...it gets hard to ignore." Can we agree on that...and that it's 'US' we are talking about here, and not some distant "other place"?

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 18, 2000.

Ok, Can we agree resolve all this getting side-tracked on trivia stuff?

How about this: "Ladies & Gentlemen...I am not the problem...and you are not the problem. The PROBLEM is the problem." Alright?

Now, what do we all know about that can help resolve *that?* Make sense?

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 18, 2000.

Hey, Steve, just a thought here, but perhaps if you lay off the hemp, you won't have to apologize for your rambing incoherence quite as much?

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), January 18, 2000.

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorace and conscientious stupidity."

1) I don't use hemp...it will give you a headache. I don't like drugs, not even medicine.

2) The issue is "industrial hemp" - not "marijuana".

3) Try reading http://www.bashar.com/GSP/hugh-abc.htm (Hugh Downs) and then reconsider your ignorant statement above. Also, so we can have an intelligent discussion on the above.

4) Try checking out the recent legislation in some 14 states and Canada, and see if they agree with your position on "hemp".

5) Stupidity, Money, Greed, Ignorance, Denial...have far more devastating effects than anything attributed to drugs. Take a look at the world around you. They are 'drugs' of another sort, one can get just as drunk on them....and you don't even have to ingest a chemical to be 'stoned out of your mind'...as you suggest above. Your statement is 'proof' of that for all to see.

6) If you 'oh so worried about drugs'...try looking at your government approved drugs, prescription drugs (400,000 deaths a year), your alcohol and cigarettes...much less the industrial chemicals (70,000)...and environmental pollution (CO2, Methane, Chlordane, Flouride, CFCs, hormone disruptors, Ozone...etc, if you want to talk about 'the drug problem'.

7) Try addressing the issues instead of your severly mis-informed opinions, which are not really yours. You're regurgitating your own conditioning.

8) What exactly is it that you are afraid of anyway...to discuss these issues? Me? Doubtful. I think the problem is deeper than that.

8) Again, try addressing the issues...and keep off the personalities, and reacting to 'what you don't like' to think about.

Fair enough?

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 18, 2000.

Steve,

Ugh. You spend so much time and energy trying to find all that is wrong with society, economy, people, etc. Spend some of that intellectual capital thinking about how much better off mankind is than it was just 50 years ago. Come on, try it. BTW, the world already _is_ in chaos.

-- NotQuite (Beapolly@itsmorefun.com), January 18, 2000.

Why is it that every pothead with an agenda is behind the push to promote hemp as the be-all/end-all solution for all the world's woes?

Oh, that's right. It's a back-door route to legalizing pot.

A few facts:

Hemp is hemp. Legalize "it", and you'll never be able outlaw pot. Are there some strains where the drug levels are higher or lower? Doubtless true, but not the issue. The issue -- for the potheads (who seem to be the driving force behind the "legalize hemp movement" -- are making it legal to possess the plant.

So, you don't smoke "hemp"? I guess in that case you wouldn't mind me asking exactly what you *do* smoke?

Put up or shut up, shill-boy.

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), January 18, 2000.

"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorace and conscientious stupidity."

1) I don't use hemp...it will give you a headache. I don't like drugs, not even medicine.

2) The issue is "industrial hemp" - not "marijuana".

3) Try reading http://www.bashar.com/GSP/hugh-abc.htm (Hugh Downs) and then reconsider your ignorant statement above. You may as well have directed your reply to Hugh Downs/ABC. Also, so we can have an intelligent discussion on the above...and find out what is worth knowing.

4) Try checking out the recent legislation in some 14 states and Canada, and see if they agree with your position on "hemp".

5) Stupidity, Money, Greed, Ignorance, Denial...have far more devastating effects than anything attributed to drugs. Take a look at the world around you. They are 'drugs' of another sort, one can get just as drunk on them....and you don't even have to ingest a chemical to be 'stoned out of your mind'...as you suggest above. Your statement is 'proof' of that for all to see.

6) If you 'oh so worried about drugs'...try looking at your government approved drugs, prescription drugs (400,000 deaths a year), your alcohol and cigarettes...much less the industrial chemicals (70,000)...and environmental pollution (CO2, Methane, Chlordane, Flouride, CFCs, hormone disruptors, Ozone...etc, if you want to talk about 'the drug problem'.

7) Try addressing the issues instead of your severly mis-informed opinions, which are not really yours. You're regurgitating your own conditioning.

8) What exactly is it that you are so afraid of anyway...to discuss these issues? Or have anyone raise them for consideration. Does it bother you when people stand up, or speak with conviction, or express their concerns or feelings...even if they are "100% wrong". Wrong? Compared to what? Your perception of the fishbowl? Do spelling errors bother you too. Un-huh. Go for the bait, and run with it...and "show us". We're sitting in awe awaiting your reply.

"Give an idiot enough rope...and they'll hang themself." Just a general statement, not directed at you. I appreciate your taking the time to reply with such uplifting statements. And, by the way...who are you?

Wanna see the 'nobody idiot' you're speaking with? http://www.bashar.com/resume/bio.htm

Got anything else you'd like to mindlessly tear down? Go for it. It's *what comes out of it* that will benefit others...not everyone is stupid.

8) Again, try addressing the issues...and keep off the personalities and reacting to 'what you don't like' to think about.

Fair enough?

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 18, 2000.

I see that rather than fess up to being a pothead, you'd rather cast yourself as a spammer, you pathetic moron.

Or perhaps pot causes perseveration?

Ooops, no, that's speed, isn't it. Don't tell me you're a pothead *and* a speedfreak too, sonny?

By the way, unlike Our Glorious Leader, I *will* admit to having inhaled back in the 1960s. Quite a bit, in fact. However, unlike a lot of folks (not naming any names here, Steve), I *quit* over 30 years ago.

So take your condending bullshit and shove it up your ass, pothead.

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), January 18, 2000.

Wow...touchy nerves here.

I'm upset about what is happening in the world...and you're are upset with me...for being upset? It all makes so much sense doesn't it folks?

Again: *Industrial Hemp* Ron.....not "pot". Besides, that is a medical marijuana issue, glaucoma, anorexia, relieving AIDs and chemo- therapy treatments.

Again, I am trying to focus on the issues...not the egos. What is all the suppression and anger at someone speaking "how they see it?"

All the arguing and tearing others down...still, the problems remain...don't they? Notice that?

Now, on your priority list of Cosmic Issues....what is it that you think is more important? Me...and all my shortcomings? or the sustainability of Planet Earth?

Besides, for you to have only pointed out a few of my 'faults' (you think) only shows that you don't know me...for I have many more than what you have identified. Sorry for not being perfect Ron, and for falling short of your high expectations?

You can say or do anything you want here...any adult can see what is happening; anyone who knows about psychological denial can see what is happening....and excuse me for saying what I think. I don't even care if, ultimately, I am "right" or "wrong"....what I care about is being honest about how things appear to me, and the worst that can happen, is I will learn something. Which has been happening all my life since the time I was a little itty-bitty-baby...and will prolly continue to the day I die. Thank God there are smarter, wiser people than me to learn from.

"The price of self-deception...is paid within, and that is punishment enough."

Can we move onto something more constructive? Have you ever read the works of Wilhelm Reich, and his concept of "mo ju"? I think that is what is happening here.

As we sit here in this "pissing match"...the Women watch as the "little boyz" have their oh-so-big testosterone spats...as their world is dying. Real He-Men....u know what i mean?

Frail egos is more like it. Still, I wish you would say what you know about how to make a better world for everybody...for that is what I value, care about....and give credence to.

Sorry we got off to such a bad start with each other...i never said anything meant or intended to escalate the situation. I just have a different style which does not agree with *everyone* (obviously)..and no matter what I do...never will...will it?

Also, I did not mean to be condescending....truly. Was not meant that way. I enjoy humor, I enjoy an 'edge'....but it is not pointed at you. The idea is to get mad at the stupidity, and the destructive consequences it has....NOT the person. Get the distinction?

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 18, 2000.

Steve...I think that this quote from one of the above rants of yours REALLY SAYS IT ALL. "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience , but where he stands at time of challenge & controversy."

And while I will listen to most anyone, I think in the year 2000 that refering to forum members as "folks" and as "people" in the manner in which you use the terms, is condescending. Other than that I have no problem. I have read other posts of yours and quite agreed and/or enjoyed them. And as far as my age, lets just say that I enjoy getting my SS check each month....and it wasn't all easy times getting to that point in life, either. And I don't consider using Iran instead of Iraq a spelling error!!!!!!!!! Friends??? LOL

-- Taz (Tassi123@aol.com), January 18, 2000.

Ron - since you have confused "pot" with industraial hemp...I'll try to pick up on your initiative, and share a few tid-bits.

To answer your question. Fact #1: Industrial Hemp is a completely different species of 'cannibas' than the strains cultivated for 'smoking enjoyment'. The 'pot' you are worried about has nothing to do with Industrial Hemp....it is worthless to smoke.

However, it *is* good for clean fuel (ethanol), fiber, paper, pulp, medicine, food protein, makes the archivest's 'perfect paper'; the Constitution was written on Hemp, Betsy Ross's flag was made from Hemp, Kentucky was the richest state in the south because of it; George Washington was a Hemp farmer; Every battle ship requires hemp rope; it was the first strategic resource that Japan tried to cut off in the Phillipines after bombing world war II; the US govt had 4H club growing it when Japan cut off Phillipines; hemp is 'where' Levis jeans got their 'fame' for durability (not cotton jeans); it was used on Columbus ship sails; and on the 'Covered Wagons'...it was used in all the parachutes during World War II..(even parachutes George Bush used to jump out of airplanes!) and military clothing; was used in over 60% of all medicines prior to 'illegalization' in 1937; is the material (sandal) used in the oldest archeological find of human clothing...and has been the most beneficial plant used throughout the world for over 10,000 years; 6% of landmass devoted to Hemp could replace 100% of gas, oil, and nuclear; it could stop the famines and world hunger (2nd highest form of protein);*anything* you can make from oil -you can make from Hemp; 1 acre of Hemp produces more pulp in one year than 4 acres of timber in 20 years...

And you think this has nothing to do with the world or the human condition? It's 'irrelevant'?

Thank you for asking and bringing the matter to light so everyone can see. Now...can we get back to the original topic of this post?

PS.

Here's another one for ya...

Perhaps it's time to exhume Carl and arrest him as well - as was done with Peter McWilliams, Steve Kubby...and all the others?

Too bad we can't arrest ignor-ance and mis-information as easily...huh?

s. ============================================ Biographer says Carl Sagan drew inspiration from marijuana August 22, 1999 Web posted at: 6:42 AM EDT (1042 GMT)

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- The late astronomer and author Carl Sagan was a secret but avid marijuana smoker, crediting it with inspiring essays and scientific insight, according to Sagan's biographer.

Using the pseudonym "Mr. X", Sagan wrote about his pot smoking in an essay published in the 1971 book "Reconsidering Marijuana." The book's editor, Lester Grinspoon, recently disclosed the secret to Sagan's biographer, Keay Davidson.

Davidson, a writer for the San Francisco Examiner, revealed the marijuana use in an article published in the newspaper's magazine Sunday. "Carl Sagan: A Life" is due out in October.

"I find that today a single joint is enough to get me high ... in one movie theater recently I found I could get high just by inhaling the cannabis smoke which permeated the theater," wrote Sagan, who authored popular science books such as "Cosmos," "Contact," and "The Dragons of Eden."

In the essay, Sagan said marijuana inspired some of his intellectual work.

"I can remember one occasion, taking a shower with my wife while high, in which I had an idea on the origins and invalidities of racism in terms of gaussian distribution curves," wrote the former Cornell University professor. "I wrote the curves in soap on the shower wall, and went to write the idea down.

Sagan also wrote that pot enhanced his experience of food, particularly potatoes, music and sex.

Grinspoon, Sagan's closest friend for 30 years, said Sagan's marijuana use is evidence against the notion that marijuana makes people less ambitious.

"He was certainly highly motivated to work, to contribute," said Grinspoon, a psychiatry professor at Harvard University.

Grinspoon is an advocate of decriminalizing marijuana.

Ann Druyan, Sagan's former wife, is a director of the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws. The nonprofit group promotes legalization of marijuana. Sagan died of pneumonia in 1996. He was 62.

============= Now, can we get back to the topic at hand...and see if we can't be more cooperative and constructive together? Rather than at each other's throats? And try to deal with what our problems are (Oil Crisis)...and focus on credible solutions? (Industrial Hemp being one of them; appropriate technologies another; Zero Point energy being another; and conservation/efficiency...(i.e. through an education/design revolution...get the efficiency of our 'devices' up a bit (fuel cells, hydrogen technology)...or any other good ideas you might know about...

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 18, 2000.

You talk like a pothead. And talk, and talk, and talk, and talk, and talk...

Your new habit of *repeating* your voluminous shite is less than endearing too. You don't want to be treated like "lady logic" and the tax-protester-spamboy? Then don't ACT like them, fool.

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), January 18, 2000.

Steve,

Admire your fire and zeal, keep trying to communicate your message.

Some communication hints that might help:
1) The format and presentation of information will affect the acceptance of the message by the target audience.

2) Spelling does matter, it shows you 'Care about your message'.

3) Try some HTML, this is the Web after all.(grin)

4) Respect your Elders. This is an evolving concept on the Web, hard to communicate to you exactly what I mean.
Some examples:
  a) An Old-Timer on a forum with a documented history of posts.
  b) Someone in this community that is a "recognized authority" on the subject at hand.
  c) A Sysop
  d) A real world older person with more life experience than you.

BTW: I am "None of the above" , just trying to help a "fellow traveler"

-- Possible Impact (posim@hotmail.com), January 18, 2000.

Again, sorry Ron. First, how can I spam my my own thread? That's a new one.

The isssue was: "Looming Oil Crisis". One highly relevant 'solution' worth considering is understanding what is known about "Industrial Hemp"...so how can that be off topic?

If so many people are dying and suffering unnecessarily...and we are ignoring obvious solutions right in front of our faces...how can that be "talked about too much"?

"One man's celiling is another man's floor".

"Everything is relative" (Albert Einstein).

And 'all that is said here' is *trivial* next to the information which is available in the literature on these subjects...I am only trying direct attention to the issues. No one is going to 'fix' all this alone. I think (know) these issues are relevant.

I do the best I can, though I am frought with faults and other shortcomings. I have family and nieces & nephews and people I care about, and I don't want to see them hurt...or really, anyone hurt.

What is so hard to see about that?

You say I "talk too much". Compared to what? Compared to the number of conversations on the TB2000 Forum....or? If it's so upsetting, then what are you doing here, and who is to blame for your choosing to read all this "drivel". Personally, I don't think it's meaningless at all.

I think people love to ignore problems...and solutions. It's just too convenient, isn't it. What is so upseting is *not* what is being said per se, it's the values that it points to...understand? And you can't really have a discussion with someone if you don't know what they value. (Bertrand Russell). Otherwise, it's all academic...isn't it.

To 'NotQuite':

No...I don't spend 'too much time' looking for problems. They are already there. I've done 30 years of global environmental research, and these issues are coming to a head. It's because I do love Life, and people, and Nature...and I care about it's well being is why I do what I do. Things which are not a problem...really are not a problem, are they?

It's 'the problems' left unattended to...which can undo all the "how much better off we all are compared to 50 years ago." Does that make sense? I have a different perspective on "how much better off we all are." True...but for how much longer? Is it sustainable? 50 years ago, we were *not* facing the kind of global environmental we are now. We are moving to the edge of the carrying capacity of the planet to withstand human activity.

I don't 'say' that...the data shows that that is so. Check the August 3rd, 1999 report from the United Nations. Or go speak with the individuals at NASA who have access to the satellite data. Years ago, one of the directors at NASA was fired by VP Dan Quale for 'speaking-up' (sound familiar) about the environmental issues, for admitting that ozone estimates were off by a factor of 10 when recalculated..(something like that). It was a "National Security issue"...what does that tell you?

Check the following statement issued by the Union of Concerned Scientists to humanity. This warning was signed by over 1,500 members of national, regional, and international science academies. Sixty-nine nations from all parts of Earth are represented, including the twelve most populous nations and nineteen of the largest economic powers. It was also signed by 99 Nobel Prize winners.

"In the seven years following this warning (1999) little has been done; 'business as usual' has been the norm. Regardless, the following is as much - if not more - true now than ever before:

"Human beings and the natural world are on a collision course. Human activities inflict harsh and often irreversible damage on the environment and on critical resources. If not checked, many of our current practices put at serious risk the future that we wish for human society and the plant and animal kingdoms, and may alter the living world to such an extent that Earth will not be able to sustain life in the manner we know. Fundamental changes are urgent if we are to avoid the collision our present course will bring about." (UCS)

Ditto for the August 3rd 1999 UN Report. Ditto for the 1999 National Geographic article on the present rate of species extinction "The Great Extinctions". Ditto for the recent ice-core samples pulled from Siberia.

Now...is 'little old me' really the problem...or is the Problem the problem?

And NotQuite, honest question here, if the world, as you say 'already is in chaos' ...then what do you suggest we do, given that is the present situation? Focus on 'how much better off we are "compared to 50 years ago?" I understand what you mean, and I don't spend all my time "focusing on what is wrong"...just on short threads like this one.

Now, what is the flip-side of your question...where to you think 'all this chaos' will lead to...*in the next 50 years?* And that is a major concern, not only for myself...but for anyone who has children, and cares about the kind world us "adults" are going to hand them.

No, they are not better off than kids 50 years ago...the threats are not just local anymore...they now encompass the entire world global biological "infrastructure"...and one would have thought we learned something more about "infrastructure" from Y2K...and how it applies as a general principal.

And the ET situation is an extremely important issue, for one reason: "they" may know something about how to improve *our* chances for success as a planetary civilization...and that is the "why", and the promise of coming to terms with the ET situation....along with all the other changes we are all faced with. And I don't think that, I know that.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. And you can give a man an education...but you can't force him to think."

Sorry...but that's the way i see it...today. The hope and the promise is that things might change tomorrow, and the next day, and so on.

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 18, 2000.

Thank you "Possible Impact"...good call, and you're right. I'll try composing in my word processor first, and use the spell check.

Still, I am able to read between the lines on posts, and not be offended by individual words, spelling mistakes, etc., but that is just me. I realize others assign their own meaning too to these things. And, (not that you are saying this) I'm not writing to please anyone, or 'convince them' or lead them anywhere, or trying to foresee or second guess everything someone might take offense at. I am quite sure those reading all this can read between the lines.

I know many people, including many individuals in the US government and the military, are deeply concerned about these issues...that's it's not just me who sees all this.

Ron...sincerely...truly, my apologies to you (and to the readers) for any mis-understanding, or anything I might have done inadvertantly, for any part I had in contributing to the confusion...ok? Really.

Honest question: If the 'elders' are so smart...why do we see what we do in the world today? I don't respect anyone - just because they are 'older' (well, not beyond common decency) but I do respect intelligent discourse, no matter what age (from the mouths of babes...) and, people who care.

My mom used to say, "As you get older...you will not suffer fools gladly...and you don't have to. Stand up, speak straight...and if you are oh-so smart genius...see what you can do to improve the Human Condition and your fellow man. Ok? Now go get my coffee and english muffins before they get cold....won't you dear?"

I think in someways, she was right.

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 18, 2000.

Taz...no I'm not mad at you. Yes, we are 'friends' in the sense of sharing common concerns and values about what is happening in the world. Now, earlier you said:

TAZ said: "And while I will listen to most anyone, I think in the year 2000 that referring to forum members as "folks" and as "people" in the manner in which you use the terms, is condescending."

Ok...I hear what you are saying and I'll try to be aware of that...thank you. Me? I have never felt someone was meaning to be condescending when they used the word/symbol/labels "folks" or "people". Not to be "I'm right...you're wrong" 'either/or' two valued polarity here, but I do think it's very important to recognize that words do not have 'built in meaning'...the meaning is 'in us'. We assign meaning, and this is well known in general semantics (Korzybski, W. Johnson, Rapaport, etc.) Meaning also is entirely dependent on context...what is being 'said' has to be considered in light of all that is being said. And, 'meaning' is *as much* the responsibility of the reader (rose colored glasses effect) as much as the responsibility of the writer to convey what they *intend* as best they can. The language itself contributes as much to the confusion, as the ability of the writer, and the reader, for the 'idea' to 'get across'.

Now, it helps me to know that some people might interpret those words, and take "folks" or "people" as being condescending...but you should know (as much as I should understand your insight) that other people with interpret "folks" or "people" for how it was meant. "Folks", in the sense that I use that word means, "all of us here", "all us chickens in here", (as equals)...that kind of meaning.

It's obvious, that when I say "tree" you might think of 'coconut tree' (and just detest the flavor of coconut; bad childhood experience) but and I might be thinking 'maple tree' (and I love maple syrup). So, the language itself has built in ambiguity...*and* each person brings their own assigned meanings (the most important point here) and...both the reader and the writer have equal responsibility for 'the meaning they derive'...for ultimately, written words are 'black scratch marks on white paper' and the reader actually supplies 100% of the meaning (decoding). And a good writer (as far as is possible) is able to string together enough 'triggers' that hopefully will 'steer the reader' somewhat close to what the *intended meaning* is. And its never a perfect process...

I hope that makes sense. The implications are quite far reaching when we consider hate crimes, racism, sexism, "communist"...etc. Because we react to the label, and stop seeing them as "people"...if I may use that phrase. In our minds...we can much more easily drop an atomic bomb on "Those Devil Japs"...than to say, we just incinerated 300,000 human beings...men, fathers, brothers, mothers, sisters, children in the middle of practicing violin, etc..."people".

And language can be quite dangerous...for the meanings we supply, inspite of how "innocuous" it may appear on the surface.

So, "the meaning we assign" is a very important thing...very. Actually, the 'nexus' of the 'lively interchange' with Ron over "Pot" "Pot Heads" "Industrial Hemp" "You talk like a Pot Head". (Now really...who is assigning meaning on that one? How *would* one verify such bold, sweeping, 'one-size-fits-all' claims? And, if you read the article about Carl Sagan...not ALL "pot heads" are complete fools. In fact, judging from Carl's overall performance, perhaps this is a good indicator that we re-consider our conditioned mis- information on that subject as well, but that is not point of this thread.

The issue is that we are facing an 'environmental crisis' from the primary energy we are using, and, there are real, credible solutions right in front of us (they are not hidden, we do not need to discover some silver bullet) and we really ought to implement them before we do more damage to the environment. I don't think that is a difficult concept to grasp.

We need to separate out what we mean when we say "Industrial Hemp", "marijuana", and "medical cannabis" and quit confusing one for the other...as can be so readily seen in this thread, and in society in generally.

And as far as medical marijuana, I think Rep. Shalala said it best:

"We need to get on with the research. We need to stop having this debate between two groups...neither of whom is standing on very firm ground. We need to do what we do what we do with every other drug and start studying it's benefits, if any."

Why is the research being suppressed? Why is the most beneficial plant known to man "illegal". That shows us exactly where we are, and where our priorities are...that it is easier to make a quick buck, than to care about anything else, no matter how compelling the evidence or benefit it would have. Our capacity to ignore is appalling...and dangerous too.

tick...tock....tick....tock....tick....tock...

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 18, 2000.

Ron,

Or perhaps pot causes perseveration? Or perhaps pot causes perseveration? Or perhaps pot causes perseveration? Or perhaps pot causes perseveration? Or perhaps pot causes perseveration? Or perhaps pot causes perseveration? Or perhaps pot causes perseveration? Or perhaps pot causes perseveration? ??

Seemed funnier than H when I thought of it,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.com), January 18, 2000.

Still is funny, Frank. (hopefully it was a joke) [g]

And Steebie -- how do you spam your "own thread"? Over and over, it would appear. Reposting an immense diatribe rather than *answering* a question posed in response to the original turdlet -- and *still* continuing to evade it -- all the while waxing voluminous in your varied spewings -- help toward that goal too.

So in short, rave on, pothead. Hopefully it will please you to know that when I find a poster with digital diarheah, I -- at the most -- skim his crap. That's why I you're getting a reply to your stupid question about how you spam your "own thread", spamboy. It caught my eye as I was skimming it.

In the future -- now that I've sized you up as a motor-mouthed pothead with a keyboard that won't stop -- I'll probably just skip over your garbage en toto. I *may* deign to take a few cheap "pot" shots at you, should I get wind of you invoking my name, of course.

Rave on.

PS: if you *ever* want *anyone* to read your crap, fall *out* of love with the sound of your own keys clacking, and learn to 1) make a point, and 2) make it *concisely*. Pouring out page after page after page of rap only inspires "folks" to hit the PgDn key.

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), January 18, 2000.

The high cost of denial

To deny the magnitude of our environmental problems results in a high cost once the disaster strikes. The point is perhaps best described by Dr. Douglass Carmichael, (paraphrased):

"Those who want to hush the problem ("Dont talk about it" and "We dont know for sure.") are having three effects. First, they are preventing a more rigorous investigation of the extent of the problem. Second, they are slowing down the awareness of the intensity of the problem as currently understood and the urgency of the need for solutions, given the current assessment of the risks. Third, they are making almost certain a higher degree of ultimate panic, in anger, under conditions of shock.

Why do they deny it?

There are several reasons why the public, business leaders and government officials continue to deny 'the problem'.

The self-fulfilling prophecy reason: This supposes that admitting there is a problem will actually cause the problem to trigger early.

The self-delusion reason: "It's really not a problem." Unfortunately, many people still believe this -- and they do because it's convenient to believe it. To recognize the legitimacy of problems requires people to demolish their own comfort zone and reconstruct their version of reality. That's a painful process for some people; impossible for others. That's why they don't do it.

Not admitting obvious problems...is likely to cause much larger problems when the crisis really hits. People are outlandishly irresponsible in their resistence to acknowledging and or discussing the true nature of environmental problems. They hope that by not telling anyone about it, perhaps the problem will go away. The environment doesn't work that way. Keeping people in the dark ultimately results in more people getting caught unprepared; and suffering hardship or even death as a result.

Those that deny are deafiningly silent on this issues, instead of helping people understand the problem for themselves. In other words, their attitude seems to be, "We can lose lives, but we definitely can't lose our convenient world view."

'Control' is the top priority. Saving lives is second.

-- ZogSexWax (Zog@aol.com), January 18, 2000.

How Long Will it Take? ----------------------------

In South Africa, Nelson Mandella's tour has provoked the nastiest of backlashes against someone who merely offers offers information and asks people to make up their own minds about the issues.

Interviewed on Talk Radio, Mandella was subjected to one of the worst displays of character assassination and domineering arrogance it has been my misfortune to witness these last 50 years. As someone who has made a television programme with Britains Jeremy Paxman, the rottweiller of UK politicians, I quickly realised that even Paxman at his most vindictive could not have come close to the hostility levelled at Mandella by programme hoste Davis.

I listened with increasing anger as Davis belittled Mandella, cutting him off in mid-sentence, changing the subject whenever he was making a point, cutting off those who rang in with questions, not addressing Mandella's valid points - and producing a performance that I can only describe as the most horrendously irresponsible that I have ever listened to.

Mandella stood his ground under Davishostile onslaught and bullying. One caller berated Mandella with a barrage of derogatory remarks. Davis improper handling of the interview escalated by calling Mandella a racist who hates Jews. Mandella was obviously becoming as fed up as I was - listening to this charade and abhorrent insult to everyones intelligence. After the programme Davis had the gall to come back on and harangue Mandella when he was no longer there to defend himself.

Mandella 'won the war' because I've talked to many people since who had previously been unsure of Mandella, but now say that he must know something they dont want us to hear.

Interesting thing is, Mandella was on radio on the evening of the 20th where callers were genuinely interested. The programme host was very calm and let Mandella speak so that the other listeners could benefit from hearing what he had to say. Hopefully, his talk will come free of orchestrated sabotage.

-- ZogSexWax (Zog@aol.com), January 18, 2000.

Steve,
I just got back from some reading at the Global Strategies Project Website.

Looks to me like you are both a subject matter expert and an Elder. (grin)(shuffle)
I've never smoked anything (except tires) my whole life.

Is Kenaf related to "Industrial Hemp"? Heard some stories about it a while back that sounded similar.
I have a farm in central Texas, and am looking for products to grow besides corn, cotton, and soybeans.

What legal biomass type plants are "second best" if hemp is unavailable?

-- Possible Impact (posim@hotmail.com), January 18, 2000.

------------------------- Dear Group;

With regard to the frequent incidents of post-Y2K anger turned on those of us who were attempting to help communities and others prepare for whatever eventualities Y2K would bring, here is one explanation of the interpersonal dynamics that might be helpful in understanding the phenomenon.

DS ________________________________________________

POST-Y2K ANGER: THE KARPMAN TRIANGLE STRIKES AGAIN

Along with the puzzling smoothness of the Y2K transition, one of the more perplexing Y2K social phenomena is the turning of the those who prepared on those who urged them to prepare in the first place; i.e., anger directed at those whose basic intention was to help. In psychological terms we say the Victim has turned on the Rescuer.

In Transactional Analysis this dynamic is termed the Karpman Triangle, after Stephen B. Karpman, who originated the concept of many dramatic events being played out by the roles of Victim, Rescuer, and Persecutor. In this case, the threat of Y2K disruptions was the Persecutor, preparation advocates were the Rescuers, and many of the populace perceived themselves to be Victims (of Bill Gates, the government, greedy businesses, 3the hoax,2 etc.)

The drama of the Karpman Triangle occurs when the rescue is apparently completed: the roles change and the Victim turns on the Rescuer. What we9re now seeing is the former Victim (now the Persecutor) accusing the former Rescuer (now the Victim) of all sorts of nefarious doings. Smooth and surprisingly innocent Y2K has now become the Rescuer, lauded by the new Persecutors as 3See, there was no problem, you fakers!2

As many of you know, this drama was predicted by the Civic Prep Task Force at least a month before the roll-over. Unfortunately, it is not an uncommon trait of human nature. It became so prevalent in our litigious society, in fact, that it led to the passing of the Good Samaritan laws - doctors and nurses were no longer stopping to assist at accidents for fear of being sued by the rescued victims and what that was doing to their liability insurance rates.

The causes of this role-reversal dynamics have long been debated in psychological circles, and there is no clear-cut answer. It may be the embarrassment of needing to be rescued in the first place; i.e., the unwillingness to take personal responsibility for the situation and lashing out at the closest target, the Rescuer. A version of this may be that the victim wants to blame somebody - anybody - for a threatening situation, and again the Rescuer is handiest. It is also predictable that the role shift always occurs AFTER the rescue is complete and the threat is over.

Being attacked by the apparently rescued Victim is often a shock to the unsuspecting Rescuer, who typically responds in amazement, But I was only trying to help! And so they were.

Is there a defense for the maligned Rescuer-cum-Victim? No logical defense, because the attack is emotion-based. Responses therefore range from turning the other cheek to questioning if in fact the former Victim is now at least somewhat better off for having been rescued, to explaining how you feel about being attacked for having attempted to do a good turn. Don9t expect much of a change of heart on the part of the new Persecutor, however, for in this drama, emotions run deep and logic runs shallow.

How do I know? The former managing editor of the newspaper for whom I wrote a pro-bono Y2K column for a year has now urged the publisher to 3pillory Stewart in print - he took up all that valuable space and nothing happened! Fortunately, the publisher9s cooler head has prevailed.

The dynamics of the Karpman Triangle can make for powerful drama, strong films, suspenseful novels...but it can be startling and dismaying when it happens to you. After all, you were just trying to help.

====================== Question from a reader: "The only thing is... how long does it take for the victim-turned-persecutor to come around? (Translation = How much longer do I have to wear this armor?)"

Answer: How long does it take the Victim-cum-Presecutor to give up the new role? No simple answer to that one, I'm afraid. It depends upon

a) how deep the emotions are /were running,

b) how forgiving is basic nature of the new Persecutor,

c) is the blaming a convenient cover for a deeper set of emotions that aren't so easily made public,

d) how soon they're distracted by a new situation-du-jour,

e) how the new Victim responds to the blaming (in their dismay, do they add fuel to the fire?), or f) all of the above. In other words, there are a lot of independent variables.

Perhaps the best response is to just drop the armor ("Look, I'm defenseless!"), smile demurely, and respond gently, "Hey, I was just trying to help." Good luck!

===================== 'In some cases, and for those to whom it applies, what disturbs us about others is....what we dimly perceive in ourselves. There is some truth to this.'

But with the situation described above, it is very challenging and often times frustrating that they can see 'everything'...except common sense and working together to get to the truth of the matter, no matter what it turns out to be.

-- ZogSexWax (Zog@aol.com), January 18, 2000.

Earlier, Possible Impact wrote:

>Steve,

I just got back from some reading at the Global Strategies Project website. Looks to me like you are both a subject matter expert and an Elder. (grin)(shuffle)<

[Thanks for the kind remarks. "Expert"...not really; just paid attention to many people's work who were far more informed that I. Did my best to come up to speed on the issues, select what seemed to be the most important works, and tried to put them into a format so that information could be shared by many. The collective intelligence in Humanity is amazing to me...there are so many people who have spent a lifetime working on these issues, each in their own way...and so much of it ignored. One of the things R. B. Fuller emphasized, that was critical to Humanity's survival...to seek out and assemble the world's best intellectual resources on problems and solutions, and to then find a way "to get everyone in-on-the-know." In that way, nobody would have to 'tell' anyone 'what to do'...they would know, they would understand the consequences involved, and they would know best how to apply that understanding to the specific facts of their unique situation. And, shared information, common understanding of the issues, is the basis of building consensus and cooperation on common threats. When people understand, no one has to "tell" them "what to do"...they are not stupid...they'll get it.

I still believe that is they key.]

>I've never smoked anything (except tires) my whole life. Is Kenaf related to "Industrial Hemp"? Heard some stories about it a while back that sounded similar.<

[Hmmm...I'm not really sure. My impression is that "kenaf" is just a local term used (in Africa?) for the species "cannabis sativa"; obviously, there are many names used throughout the world to identify that particular plant: Hemp, Cannabis, Kenaf, Ghanga, etc. As with all plants, there are many varieties/strains of any given species, with a wide variety of characteristics in size ('short bushes' to tall stems - the one's preferred for their strong fiber, and other for their pulp-biomass content. The varieties preferred for industrial hemp have little, if any, THC content. That is why confusing "pot" (high THC content) for "industrial hemp" (low THC, strong fiber, bio-mass, pulp) is so damaging to moving forward with this very beneficial plant to help solve the energy, fiber, fuel, food, pulp(paper) needs of Humanity. The confusion is in blaming one species for the characteristics of another...and this only goes to show how effective the program of conditioning and mis-information has been on this subject. That is why I said, "those are not even your own thoughts" earlier. Anyone who has even taken 1-2 hours to read the literature on this subject, or investigated 'why' it was made illegal in 1937...would know the difference between the two varieties. And, they would know 'why' it was a "threat" to the paper and timber interests of Hurst, and to the chlorine interests of DuPont. One of the most interesting, funny and informative books on this is Jack Herer's "The Emperor Wears No Clothes"..and also Chris Conrad's book "Hemp: Lifeline to the Future". Both are just packed with information, presented in a very clear way.

If one understands Hemp fully, they would see that all the pollution from the paper-cardboard industry, all the trees and forests which have been cut down, the killing of the whales for their 'oil bladder', the damage from pesticides used on cotton, the acid rain and air-pollution from cars using dirty, sulfur oil, the wars which have been fought over oil, the millions of people who died in those wars, the millions who starve...all...a direct consequence of making and keeping hemp illegal. All done in the name of profits, with no regard for the consequences on other people's lives, the environment, or future generations. It takes awhile before that dawns on you, what all this 'really' means...the real consequences, and understanding the psychology of those who would do these things to their fellow man, or would let them continue.

>I have a farm in central Texas, and am looking for products to grow besides corn, cotton, and soybeans. What legal biomass type plants are "second best" if hemp is unavailable?<

To my knowledge there is nothing which can compare to hemp. Very detailed studies were done by the Department of Agriculture, US Govt. I think they also mentioned seaweed(?)might be one of them; certain algae(?)...I can't really remember off the top. When we say "bio-mass"...that is usually implying a cellulose material which can be converted into ethanol for fuel. That is only one part of the cannabis plant. The seeds provide the second highest form of protein, right next to soy beans...but hemp does not have the same pests which soybeans have; it does not require nitrogen as does the soy plant; it does not deplete the soil like soy does; it can grow in a wide variety of soils (which soy cannot); it can grow at a much wider range of altitudes than soy. The fibers are some of the strongest...if not the strongest...known to man. Hemp is the only material which can withstand an ocean environment and not rot from corrosive sea air. Even today, a steel battleship still requires some 30,000 - 50,000 feet of hemp rope to operate...it is superior/more cost effective than any synthetic man-made fiber.

I don't think there is any wood plant which can compare to the bio- mass potential of hemp. I know corn can be used to make ethanol, but part of the entire "bio-mass" equation has to consider all the following to have meaning: "How many different environments, and at what altitudes and latitudes can the plant grow? Under what range of soil, pH and water requirements? How much and what type of pesticides are required? What, if any, are the natural pests/enemies to the plant? How susceptible is it to disease? What effect does the plant have on the soil? What is it's root structure? How much bio-mass does it produce per acre, per year? How many parts of the plant are useful? And how much of it is waste? What is the energy cost to plant, maintain, harvest and process? And, how many products can be made from a single species? What level of technology is required to plant, harvest and process? Is the plant suitable for 'appropriate technology' and for third world countries to utilize as well?...not just high tech countries?

All of that would have to be taken into consideration in order to assess any given plants' overall economic viability...to make a decision, or meaningful comparison. Given all the above factors...that is why industrial hemp is such an amazing plant...because it comes out "tops" in almost every category. Measured on all the above criteria...there is no other single plant species that even comes close to hemp, nor do I know of any "close second".

The question is, if such a plant is so beneficial...then why would that be made illegal and suppressed? And then you begin a study of politics, money, greed, lack of caring, hidden agendas, out right lying, twisted puppies, and ignoring...no matter what the costs to humanity. And from there, you go into understanding power elites and 'What makes these people tick?' Much like trying to understand the psychology of a Jeffrey Dhammer (sp?) or Adolph Hitler.

Who and for what reasons...would anyone hold back something so useful, so beneficial...and keep people in the dark and mis-informed about all this, knowing the consequences that are involved? And that's the tough one.

And, it's also the reason you see people come absolutely unglued and unreasonable about all this. Because admitting the facts would show them, in no uncertain terms, that they have been duped; have been lied to; that it shows where our priorities are (or are not)...and pretty much makes a sham of all our "scientific progress", and "how far we have come in 50 years" and "do unto others"...and all the other lip service we pay ourselves in one way or another. No wonder all the anger comes up...because they are right on the edge of having their bubble burst, and having to admit that they were "wrong"...or lied to...or, spent their life pursuing empty, meaningless goals. And that is not easy to see, or face up to, or to break through the conditioning. Lots of anger and hurt about all that...and it clouds seeing clearly...even if put right in front of their face. And this is something that affects almost everyone, and applies just as well to discussing corruption in government, and white collar crime, or the Human condition, or the "Drug War", or environment, Hemp...or the ET situation. Opening Pandora's box *in any one (or all) of those areas* is a very difficult shift in understanding for anyone to make...initially. But it gets easier with better information, and having some time to 'process it all'.

Or, to summarize much of the above: "Many people in this world are putting most of their energy...into managing their dis-honor."

If I can find more info on '2nd best bio-mass' candidates, I'll send your way. But I do think we should try to find out why the "1st best bio-mass' candidate is 'illegal'.

"He who passively accept evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it.. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it." (Martin Luther King)

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers@aol.com), January 19, 2000.

Zog, good call on the articles you posted above. It's about time someone exposed Ron for what he is. I wonder, does anyone know if the following quote was written specifically for 'the little man' Ron Schwarz? Or, is it just an amazing coincidence? The shoe certainly fits.

"Sit down, and be quiet. You are drunk, and this is the edge of the roof."  Rumi

Don't sweat the small stuff Steve. You have bigger things to worry about than an impotent poodle knawing at your ankles. Not everyone reading this thread is blind. Personally speaking, Ron is saying nothing about you, but he sure is saying an *awful* lot about who he is, and the tortured state he lives in. Not to worry. The only satisfaction to be had is in knowing that no matter 'Ronnie boy' goes - that is where he finds himself. And as you mentioned earlier "and that is punishment enough."

BWAH HA HA HA HA HA!!!

Keep up the good work. Great website! Very informative and killer graphics, especially your Y2K drawings.

A friend who shares your concerns,

ICE

-- Ice (WeSee@ThruYou.com), January 19, 2000.

I see that water has found its own level.

Why don't you two lovebirds wobble off into the sunset and smoke it off?

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), January 19, 2000.

I am writing you rather than the "open forum" as I don't care to talk to to anybody there at this time. However, I did read the discussion. I thought you brought up a number of interesting points and I thought most of the responses were asinine, especially the "You are a "pot head!" (vs industrial hemp) replies...(if you can call them that.)

You helped open my eyes to the "war on drugs". Now that is a double edged sword, isn't it? All the public school "just say no" stuff is a great message, but then they are giving out Ritalin like it's M&M's. I heard a long program on the radio. The whole Ritalin thing is government endorsed and they are in cahoots with the drug companies. In some places, teachers are given monetary rewards for every student they steer toward drug therapy (pharmaceutical companies pay them). Ritalin produces the exact same effect as cocaine in post pubescent kids. People that do cocaine try Ritalin and can't tell the difference, because both have the same effects. So we build a nation of drug dependent kids while we have this inefficient war on drugs. Am I missing something here, or is this insanity?

The more I poke my nose into things, the more things smell bad. I overheard a commercial the other day and this guy was talking about he increased his "personal net worth" and a light went on. At the bottom of all this money and power is this sad equation: 'I am WORTHLESS unless I have something to make me worth something." Is this the way lives are measured on this planet? Or, as you have stated, it is a lack of self-esteem.

The oil thing--I don't know. It is probably politics, as usual. Gotta herd the sheep, keep 'em occupied with something besides sniffing out the truth.

I have a question for you. Have you ever noticed that politicians don't look or act like normal people? There is something very peculiar about them--almost as if they are another SPECIES altogether. Another thing--every time one of them opens his mouth, you get this gut feeling that the truth is not being told and that we are being given little decoys to follow. Anyway, I am starting to conclude, based on no factual information whatsoever, that they are genetically different and possibly engineered that way. Something to ponder and chew on. Is Tilting Crow tilting TOO FAR?!!

Your "Rant" made for some very good reading. Keep writing, keep thinking, and keep looking.

Best,

'Big Al' from Down Under

-- Anon (Anon@anon.com), January 19, 2000.

Oil? Gold? Should we worry about those things. The soon return of Jesus Christ is something to worry about, that is if your not saved!

-- Larry Bernan (junk@kscable.com), January 19, 2000.

Big Al,

Well...I don't know if it's genetic...but I think emotional distortion would account for most of it. Twisted inside, and it shows outside. Yes, I agree; have sensed the same myself on more than one occasion. No, you're not alone. Have had many others identify pretty much the same of what you are seeing.

Wilhelm Reich...that is the 'answer' you are looking for. Any of his works, "The Murder of Christ in Giradano Bruno" and his book "Sex- Pol"...goes into great detail identifying what you are talking about. He calls it "body armor". You can see it in the way they talk, stiff bodies, the way they move. Not 'natural'. Mostly from being cut-off from the Totality, from Creation, from their feelings, anything that would even suggest they are human.

He was jailed and his books were burned. Yup...right here in the good ol' United States. So, what does that tell you about how close he came to the Truth?...considering how 'cheerfully' the works of Galilleo, Copernicus, Darwin, etc. were received by the Church at the time of discovery. Same thing. Reich (student/colleague of Freud) was left to die in jail to shut him up. He should have been awarded the Nobel Prize, but they were not ready to hear him, and still are not. But he absolutely nailed what you are talking about, and what makes these sick puppies 'tick'...and their need to lash out and tear down anything they see around them. They enjoy it, but it goes much deeper than that. Can't over emphasize how important his works are, if you want to understand what makes sick people in power "tick", and "What winds their clock?'. Frightening to realize the truth of what he identified about the psychology of twisted human beings. Reich is still yet to be recognized for the importance of his contribution to understanding in psychology, and it's implications for those in political power. Let's just say, you'd *understand* why we see what we do in the world today, most of what is discussed above (opening statement/rant)..and I'll leave it at that.

"The details are endless, but the theme remains the same."

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 19, 2000.

[OT Reply] or "Ask a stupid question...you get a stupid answer."

Earlier Larry Bernan wrote:

>>"Oil? Gold? Should we worry about those things. The soon return of Jesus Christ is something to worry about, that is if your not saved!

-- Larry Bernan (junk@kscable.com), January 19, 2000.<<

1) Well, I agree Larry (in one sense). No, oil and gold are not the *only* things' to 'worry' about. Never said they were. There are alot of things that work *together* to make the world 'work'. And if some of those things break down, a lot of "God's little Children" are going to suffer. Now, do you think that is what "God" has in mind?

("GOD"...another one of those, 1-size-fits-all, you-supply-the- meaning kinda words, that gets thrown around all the time. Kinda like "tree".)

2) Why would anyone 'worry about the return of Christ?' Saved from what? I thought Christ's message was about love and compassion, forgiveness and understanding, about community, and "Confess ye sins one to another" and "Love one another" and "Be your brother's keeper" and "Don't cast stones in glass houses" and "Feed the children" and "Create a world of joy, not hate" and "The Kingdom of Heaven is *within*. What ever happened to all that Larry?

3) How is it that you are all so happily looking forward to all those who are 'not saved'...being punished? You take joy in contemplating this? Is this something you are pre-disposed to want to do, but just haven't found the right excuse? Or 'when Jesus comes' you'll know that's the right time to start the party?

Didn't Christ/God say, "Create Heaven here on Earth" How you gonna do that Larry if you are dreaming of punishing people? or looking forward to their punishment, by Jesus, or whoever?

i.e. "Yeah...you better watch out, cause Jesus is comming and you gonna be really sorry!!!" Does that sound like much fun Larry? I thought Christ said, "Judge not...lest ye be judged." Did you ever once hear Christ talk of punishing anyone?

No, but that kind of talk *is* something that lets you know you are speaking with a human, and one that is clearly cut off from Creation; cut off from Nature and cut off from "The Love Of God" as you say...which pretty much is what we're talking about here, except as it applies to real people, right here, right now. You know "God's littl'e Children"...right? Those ones. And God is everything and everybody all at once all the time; nothing it 'outside' of God...right? So what do you think is in front of your face...right now? You know, the 360 degree sphere buzzing and whirring around you, right now? What do you think that is?

What, did you have a punishing, angry Father, and it all just fits so well, is so 'familiar'? i.e. like a punishing, angry God? You like that un-happy failure-oriented, low self-esteem story filled with hate, judgement and punishment? Lap it up like a bowl of milk?

Now God's watchin Larry...tell the truth: How does it *FEEL*? Huh? (Kingdom's within...remember?)

Here's one definition of God: "Human's praying to a distant imaginary Man In The Sky...while treating real, live people like born again pieces of shit." Sound familiar?

And now...time for a little prayer:

"Dear God,

Please protect me from your followers.

Thanks pal...and you let me know if you need anything too...ok?"

Get the drift Larry? Stop the Hate...start loving. Quit talking about it, and start acting like it, alright? Words are cheap if they don't amount to anything, and especially if they are not put into action. Same point...that's what this whole discussion is about; how to put that "nebulous love"...in action, so it's real. Try doing it (the love) instead of thinking about so hard. Maybe go clue in a few of your buddies while your at it. Deal?

Love has many faces...and so does God.

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 19, 2000.

You see? When you're talkin' bout God...nothin is off topic!

-- Frank ReMarque (S&M@happy.com), January 19, 2000.

Well Steve, I hope with all your wit youll be able to talk your way out of the pit of hell the day you stand before God.

-- Larry (junk@kscable.com), January 19, 2000.

Thanks for your kind and sincere good wishes Larry. Im glad to see you are in such an exhaulted position to make these. It must be nice to be so close to "God". Something I wrote in reply to a friend several months ago...you know, just being 'witty'.

Re: issue 53 page 2 red road

From: Laughing Rain

Sumer,

I need to talk to you about something. If you have the time, please read this with that open mind you possess and if you wish please let me know your thoughts. If you would could you please post this in the Voice? I believe that it is important.

Years ago when my daughter was a baby I vowed to allow her to choose her own religion. She is now fourteen years old and has made the decision to become a Christian. I have respected her decision and have taken her to church (she chose Pentacostal) and hoped that she would remain open to the Traditional ceremonies and healing that she had grown up with.

Last week we had a terrible argument and then the words came out of her mouth that I had dreaded hearing and hoped would never come. I had voiced my concern because she was withdrawing more and more from family life and spending more and more time with her youth group and church. I had always thought that a Christian attitude was conducive to strong family ties.

She became angry and told me that she thought my prayer methods and healing ceremonies were evil and she feared for me because I can never get in to heaven to be beside God because I have not accepted Jesus Christ into my life.

The argument escalated and I made the decision to not allow her to attend that church any longer. (Her group has recently split off from the main church because of fundamental differences between the head Pastor and the congregation). I voiced my concern that perhap her church may be a new cult. Well, you can probably imagine her reaction. One of huge anger and resentment and the "I hate you for that". I told her I loved her and then went to my room to ask for help from Great Spirit.

The answers soon came. I calmly got up and went to her. She was crying and I began to cry with her. I was very hurt by her statements and she by mine. We sat without talking for a few minutes and then I asked her the questions that had come to me from Great Spirit. The first was " Do you think that our pets will go to heaven?" She replyed, "Yes, I hope so, I think so" Then I asked " If the dog, who knows nothing about churchs or Jesus can sit next to God, why wouldn't I be able to?" I said " We are all one Spirit no matter what we are or how we pray or are ignorant of Christian teaching" She is thinking about that.

Today she excluded me from attending an after church picnic saying that it was only for people who go to her church. My heart was breaking.

While she was at church I asked Great Spirit again for answers and this is what came to me. The Voice was as clear as a bell. It said " Remember the tower of Babel and the arc of distortion." I thought about this and the more I thought I came back to the same conclusions.

Back before Jesus came all people spoke the same language and could understand each other and worshipped essentially the same way. With wickedness came the event known as the Tower of Babel. God became angry because the people were not following his laws so he made it come to pass that no one could speak the same tongue or understand each others language. No communication except by example. The people went to their homes in all the different parts of the world and with it the term " arc of distortion" was born. This arc is the realization that each person percieves things in their own way. Even when they are shown something there is still the possibility that they will percieve it differently. Cases of eye witnesses to an event giving completely different versions of the same thing is one example.

So the world continues and each area learns to communicate in their own way and try to teach newcomers their language and vice versa. Now comes the time that Gods sends Jesus to earth to help his children. My observation is: Could it be possible that because God knew that not all could speak Jesus language that maybe he caused everyone to see Jesus in their own perception? Could it be that Buddah was the Asian perception of Jesus? White Buffalo Calf woman the Native American perception? Allah the Middle Eastern? etc. All individual versions of the same truth? My heart tells me that this is the truth and that all the wars fought over religion, all the different religions insisting that their way is the only way are in fact the same truth. They are all one and the same just simply a different perspective, perception. They all saw the same thing but with the "arc of distortion" applied.

Something tells me that this is important and I would like to offer this to everyone. Just a little thought to ponder and see if it rings true for anyone else.

Thank you for listening and I would be honored to hear your opinion as well as any others who choose to read this letter. In this world of today with all of it's vices, anger, war, hunger, poverty I think this vision offers hope if we can set aside our differences and listen to each other. The body speaks many words that we recognize and understand. It is not always necessary to verbalize. My heart goes out to everyone. It is all I have to give.

=================== Dear LafingRain,

I was quite disturbed after reading your beautiful and sensitive letter regarding the situation with your daughter and the "church". I felt moved to copy several sections from Thom Hartman's book "The Last Hours Of Ancient Sunlight" Chapter: 'The Power of Our Point of View' Older and Younger Cultures. They speak for themself and I have added my own comments as well.

---------------------

What the (white) civilization refers to as a 'healthy ego' is, in fact, "a shrunken residue" of what humans had experienced early in life, and as young children, when their 'ego' experienced a MUCH more inclusive and intimate bond with the world around it. One result of this 'shrinking process' is that the third most common cause of death for Americans between 15 and 27 years of age...is suicide.

Theodore Roszak has studied the relationship between humans and the natural environment. In his book "The Voice of the Earth" Roszak shows how the physical, mental and spiritual *dis-connection* of modern people may be responsible for entire realms of cultural mental illnesses, and how reconnecting with Nature can be a powerful theraputic process both for the individual and for society. This is something the NA have known for well over 10,000 years.

Humans then withdrew from the natural world and created an artificial world around them, in the cities and towns...which are quite alien from Nature. Humans placed planet Earth at the center of the Universe, and (white) humans at the top of the hierarchary of our world. How convenient. Our "religions" proclaimed, both explicitly and implicitly, that "all of creation is made *only* for man, and that we are at the spiritual center of the universe. What arrogance....nausiating.

'It is not heroin, or cocaine or alcohol that makes on an addict, it is the need to escape from a harsh reality. There are more television addicts, more baseball and football addicts, more movie addicts, more "church addicts", and certainly more alcohol addicts in this country ...than there are narcotics addicts.' (paraphrased from Shirley Chisholm)

It could be argued that the Catholic Church is one of the largest and most successful "cults" in existence today.

"Every time a culture has been transformed....for better or worse, it's been because of an idea, an insight, a new understanding of 'how things' are, and what is possible. Ideas preceded every revolution, every war, every transformation, and every invention."

Our culture is the expression of our collective ideas about how things were, are, and will be. "Religion" is our collective story of how things came into being and how they'll continue or end. The story of 'how things are' is each culture's religion.

The white european 'property owning' consciousness has formed a set of very specific myths, beliefs and paradigms (stories) which can be summarized as follows:

1) we are not an integral part of the world; we are seperate from it. The Earth and all the plants and animal life on it is something different from us (humans). The difference between 'us' and the rest of life on the planet is that we are 'seperate from it, superior to it, and a law unto ourselves. When we want something, it's there for us to take, and we don't have to answer to anybody else."

2) It is our (white) destiny to subdue and rule the rest of the Creation. We tell ourselves stories which express that we deserve to be the designated rulers of of everything we can see. The NA understood that this meant we were given responsiblity for taking care of it, stewardship....but few whites behave as if they believe this is true. Witness the environmental destruction around you.

From the above, it is not a great leap to apply this idea to other humans.....which is the *actual story* of what happened to the NA when the whites arrived. Likewise, women are considered to be the 'property' of men...in male-dominated 'testosternone' cultures.

Just like the NA, the Dani people of Indonesia faced a crisis because their culture taught that it was wrong for humans to 'own' land, or virtually any other thing. Because they were unwilling to assert 'ownership' claims to the land they'd been living on since before recorded history, because they considered such an act immoral and wrong, outsiders came in and filed 'legal' claims for their "unclaimed" land and began to cut down their rainforests in which the Dani live.

Contrast this with the NA understanding of 'Creation': the need to respect "our Mother" the Earth, to experience a connectedness with Nature, and the connectedness with Spirit which comes through being connected with Nature. 'Walk gently on the Earth', take no more than is needed; use it wisely; share with your Brother's & Sisters, respect the Elders, the great Animals, watch out for the well being of the Tribe and Community, etc.

Abandoning this wisdom, the whites have introduced insane beliefs which have helped create the world in which we now live...these insane beliefs have been used to justify the continued widespread suffering of millions of human beings...even as we speak.

During the administration of George Washington, fully 80% of the U.S. Federal budget was devoted to "Indian Warfare" (i.e. extermination program). The reasons (stories) given for this were: for God, country, the family, for Mom, 'divine destiny', Darwin's "survival of the fittest", and for your right to make *your* apple pie...out of *their* apples.

In the United States, the first "Indian War" in New England was the "Pequot War of 1636," in which colonists surrounded the largest of the Pequot villages, set it afire as the sun first began to rise, and then performed their duty: they shot everybody-- men, women, children and the elderly--who tried to escape. As Pilgrim and colonist William Branford described the scene: "It was a fearful sight to see them thus frying in the fire and the streams of blood, quenching the same, and horrible was the stink and scent thereof; the the victory seemd a sweet sacrifice, and they (the colonists] gave praise thereof to God, who had wrought so wonderfully..."

That is the God to which these 'christians' pray and give their 'thanks'? It is sickness. The "white stories" about "how things are" have changed the world...often in very brutal ways. Here is a small sampling of the ideas which the "church" is pouring into the mind of your prescious 14 year old daughter.

1) "Its Women's Fault" i.e. that the "first" woman, Eve (a white) was stupid and dishonest, a sucker for a snake, and therefore....every woman since has been punished by her god. Or, Pandora, who couldn't control her curiosity. Since women are the cause of all our problems, then it makes good sense--it's our religious duty--to segregate, punish and suppress them. The names of women, with few exceptions, are discarded from the texts of modern religions and history books....and only men are worthy of being kept as lineage records.

2) "The Creator Made Us All Bad" i.e. that we are ALL born evil and stupid. Because of Eve's 'original sin' every person--man or woman-- to pop out of a woman is born tinged with evil and bad judgement. This was a story that many cultures, the NA among them, upon contact with Christian missionaries, found particularily difficult to understand. Rev. David Brainerd said, "It is next to impossible to bring [the Indians] to a rational conviction that they are sinners by nature, and that their hearts are corrupt and sinful...to show them that they are all corruptible and sinful, I observe of them that this may be the case and they may not be [aware] of it because of the blindlness of their minds, and there is no evidence that they are NOT sinful."

Many of the NA viewed the concept of 'original sin' with bewilderment. Many were equally baffled by the European notion of a god who is HATEFUL, VENGEFUL and delights setting humans up with temptation, and then punishing them when they succumb.

3) "The Creator is a forgetful bookeeper" Similarly, many Native Americans thought it quite odd that our religious leaders said if a person performed a ritual prescribed by a priest, their god would be induced to "forget" about their having committed murder, theft or rape. "Wouldn't this allow bad behavior?" they asked. The whole idea of a god whose primary function was to be bookkeeper, but a forgetful one (if the right rituals were performed or words spoken) was incomprehensible to the NA. But the idea that everybody is born sinful, that it's our nature to lie, cheat, steal, exploit, and hurt others....is one that some have found a useful rationalization for their behavior and to get others to buy inot their worldview. The idea being: you can gamble the odds, and then do a penance, give a large fits to charity, or say a particular sequence of words before you die, and you're guaranteed a place in paradise for eternity. This story is a license to steal and do whatever one pleases.

4) "The End of The World Is Coming" story are not unusual, particularily among Christians in the Amerian empire. This can only instill fear, hopelessness and apathy in all who subscribe to this 'story' as being "truth". Instead of finding out "why" this might be so, or what could be creatively done to AVOID this sick outcome...they insist it must come to pass, and so, becomes (to them) a self-fufilling prophecy. It avoids responsiblity and compassion.

All these stories are based on a deep sense of lack of self worth, lack of self-esteem, lack of love for self and others, and from having been cut-off from Nature and Creation. (see above). These stories are shallow, joyless, heartless, unimaginative and are self- serving....stories designed to infect others with the same sickness as a weak justification. i.e., if enough sick Lemmings are running off a cliff at the same time...it must be "right" because 'so many are doing it' ('democracy' and that whole line of rationalization/excuse making).

5) "Those That Don't (mindlessly) Buy Into the Above Beliefs...Are Damned and will be punished." They take joy in 'knowing' this."Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." (Blaise Pascal)

6) Likewise, their cannibilistic tendencies are not hidden from public view in thier vampire like rituals, "Eat the flesh, and drink the blood of your Savior...who was nailed to the cross and died for your sins" (more 'buck passing' on self-responsiblity). These people are preoccupied with the darkest side of human nature: torture. They revel in it...like pigs in mud on a hot sunny day. All this, while wrapping themselves in 'the Bible' to distract from the underlying structure of their sick 'stories'.

7) "Other Peoples who don't believe like we do are not fully human" For example, when the "God Fearing" Pizarro arrived...within 100 years, over 85% of the indigenous peoples of South American were dead, most of them from diseases which the "Conquistadors" brought with them from Europe. Notably, these were the same characters who brought us the "Spanish Inquisitions"...another sorry chapter in the history of "religious" people who ascribe to the above 'stories'. Such cultures will fight to the death to preserve their sick assumptions and will take 'whatever steps are necessary" to kill off or create anmesia in the citizens of other cultures which may challenge their (sick) beliefs....as you are now seeing with your 14 year old daughter. Their stories serve to cut-off from memory...the knowledge, wisdom and stories of other cultures. Witness the NA 'quietly' now removed to the "rez". Or consider this: "In another area of human rights, many Christian clergymen advocated slavery. Historians Larry Hise notes in his book, Proslavery, that ministers 'wrote almost half of all defenses of slavery published in America.' He listed 275 men of the cloth who use the Bible to prove that white people were entitled to own black people as work animals." 8) 'Clergymen don't tell you whom to kill; they just tell you whom to hate. The Christian clergymen start teaching their young at the tenderest age that THE Jews killed the beloved, gentle Son of God; that God Himself, the Father, punished THE Jews by dispension and the burning of their holy city; that God holds THE Jews accursed forever . . . .' (Dr. Runes) Or, as Bertrand Russell put it: 'Religion is based . . . mainly upon fear . . . fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone and in hand . . . . My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear...and as a source of untold misery to the human race.' * * * * * Again, the NA culture taught the need to respect our Mother Earth, honored community sharing & cooperation, encouraged respect for other tribes, their beliefs and rituatls, and to experience a connecteness with Nature...and through Nature and our Heart...to the Great Spirit. Which story do you prefer that your daughter believe and have 'poured' into her head, mind, heart and soul?

Your daughter is only 14.....she cannot have the life experience to understand the motivations of her 'elders' (the church). I understand your wanting to respect your daughter's right to self- determination; that is admirable. But I do not agree that any group, church or otherwise, especially under the guise of 'religion'...has the right override your good sense and judgement in these matters. You do not have to allow your daughter to attend these 'meetings' any more than you would be expected to allow here to attend "white supremacist Nazi" groups......with *their 'stories'*...which they would only be so happy to put into your daughter's head as well. Do not confuse your knowingness about the situation because the word 'religion' is being thrown around. Look at the stories, look at what is being taught, compare it to the values of the NA culture...and you will know what to do. Be "Brave".

Two other items that you might want to share with your daughter to help her understand these issues fully. Clearly, it is a matter of interest to her at this time. DO go out and buy a copy of Thom Hartmann's book: "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight" (ISBN 0-9655728- 1-1) so you *and especially your daughter* can be fully informed about "the religions of dominate cultures"....what we see today around us. Read aloud a chapter a day...together...maybe before bed time. In that book is a great deal of understanding bo thte the 'beliefs' of her true NA culture.....in clear and simple language. She can find out what is at the very core, the heart, of the wisdom that the NA and other indigenous cultures understood and valued. She will also learn what our world has come to with the values of the "dominator' cultures, and their unique stories of 'religion'....in clear and simple language.

Another *excellent* resource and VERY funny about all this, the book "It Ain't Nobody's Business If Do" by Peter McWilliams.

And, another HIGHLY recommended read for anyone concerned about these issues, i.e. how the heart of 'religion' (compassion, responsiblity, inclusion) has been bastardized into an excuse system for punishing people, and then happily sending then to Hell for more suffering. (What a joyless, heartless, story indeed!).......is the following set of articles presented at http://www.truthbeknown.com/miscrants.htm This extraordinary website will be a real shocker to some...and a relief to many others who have long suspected that far too many 'religions' have, in fact, been twisted into the opposite of what they preach. (homepage: http://www.truthbeknown.com)

Since your daughter *will* be encouraged to read "The Good Book" at her 'church'...you might also want to encourage her to read some of the above articles as well...so she even has a chance of making up her own mind about *her* understanding of her relationship to Creation (Existence/All-That-Is/Infinity) and 'the version' of "God" she will choose to 'believe' in (i.e. "BE & "LIVE" in).

...Warm Breezes and Gentle Sunsets to all my NA family,

Steven

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 19, 2000.

"The more that you interact with other people, the more chance there is that you will have a dispute. The less well-specified your interaction, the more chance there is that your dispute could lead to litigation. If you want to avoid litigation, the best thing to do is restructure your life so that you engage in fewer transactions."

This is a lawyer speaking...right?

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 19, 2000.

Hey, Larry, see what I meant?

You make a one-line comment, and the jerk spews out a line of rant a country mile long.

And still manages to neglect addressing what you said.

He's either a crack addict, a speedfreak, or a frustrated politician.

Or, a spammer.

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), January 19, 2000.

Could be a Flint or a Decker!!

Ray

-- Ray (ray@totacc.com), January 19, 2000.

Ron,

I'm not really sure HOW he could have NOT hit the question in the remark. Looked to ME like it was hit several times from most directions. YOU may have perceptual or comprehension problems.

Night train

-- jes an ol, tired Christian footballer (nighttr@in.lane), January 19, 2000.

Well, I think you've pretty much 'answered' what I was trying to understand throughout all this Ron...and to some extent, Larry as well, based on his response.

The simple fact is this: there *are* too many people currently in positions of power, just like you...who not only share your capacity to ignore, to trivialize issues on both problems and solutions - no matter what the cost to humanity or to anyone else. They *are* hell bent on destroying and tearing down anything they see around them; and they have their hidden agendas, which they relentlessly pursue; they are beyond "embarrassment", they have a hidden agenda(s); and nothing can stop them, for they have no conscience; they have no common decency...and they look upon humanity with disdain, and upon anything that is good or speaks of brotherhood. Above all (admit it) you enjoy punishing others and creating illth everywhere you go. It's the only way you can prop-up you empty, cut off ego.

You obviously, are very deeply hurt inside. I don't know who did that too you...but you are trying to 'get rid of' what happened to you; you are repeating what happened to you...either you Father, or your Mother. The only way you know how to "get it out of your system"...is to re-victimize someone else...someone that reminds you of what you don't have. You hate being reminded of that...don't you? How do I know? I've been there; I went through that; I had to face up to it, and learn, and chance my behavior.

You can run and hide all you want, but the truth is the truth. You just don't see it...yet. But you will.

The only difference between those in power (not all, but too many) and you, is they have more money to indulge themselves, to carry out their sick needs...and so the extent of their destructiveness goes even farther. And nothing but nothing can get them to pay attention, or be reasonable, or care...or anything that any decent person would resort to bring about positive change in good faith.

You have very well demonstrated this for all to see, and there really should be no more mystery to all this...as to 'why the world is the way it is.'

You do not bring joy, you do not bring understanding, you speak of nothing which might help or empower people. You have no regard for human life...because of the hatred you are drowning in. And you are too stupid to even be curious.

I see very little difference between you and Larry...'wounded idiots' like you in positions of political and corporate power, and idiots like Larry in Churches. Again, not all, but too many. And you use all humanity as your whipping boy...the object of your sick needs, desperately trying to fill that tortured hole inside of you...the sickness that rots from within.

But because your intention is not sincere, because it has no Heart, because it is not genuine, you never get the satisfaction from your desperate antics...and so, you have to keep repeating it over, and over and over. Notice that? You live in your own self-created Hell and are trying to drag everyone and everything down your empty hole...for fear of being left alone. And that's a fact.

You are proud of your ignorance...literally...*ignor-ing*. You think there is power in that? Or Heart? You don't even know what such questions mean.

But what I'd like to know is, are you having fun? And how do you face yourself in the morning?

You have done a great service to more people than you will ever know, both of you, by showing exactly the emotional 'illth' you have within, and that no amount of effort, caring, reasonableness, no consequence or suffering of another is enough to get your attention.

And there you have it...in a microcosm...from 'the littlest man on the street', to what fills the highest halls of Earth's "Power Elite". Do you really think it is any more mysterious than that? What perfect examples they are...of exactly what we allow to run rip- shod over all of us, our environment, everything we hold dear, out children's future, the safety and well being of Humanity. Petty, little Tyrants that they are. Distruptors...as you have just seen here.

And that, as Larry pointed out...IS something to worry about and to fear. Because it has been running rampant on this planet for thousands of years, war after war, thug after thug, enslaver after enslaver...that when one falls, another is ready to take their place, and continue that game.

And if enough good people keep ignoring all that they *know* is happening in their world...we'll just think what that will lead to...and look where we are headed.

Ron, Larry...thank you very much for bringing this entire "rant" into focus for what it truly means. You have cut to the very Heart of the matter, so everyone can see, in the Light of Day. So they can "see" and "know" the type of persons who we have entrusted with the well being of the People, Nations, the World...and Future Generations.

A major lesson and insight for all; certainly for me. I salute you.

Have nice dreams tonight...both of you. And just try to forget everything that was said here.

How's that for a short answer?Well, I think you've pretty much 'answered' what I was trying to understand throughout all this Ron...and to some extent, Larry as well, based on his response.

The simple fact is this: there *are* too many people currently in positions of power, just like you...who not only share your capacity to ignore, to trivialize issues on both problems and solutions - no matter what the cost to humanity or to anyone else. They *are* hell bent on destroying and tearing down anything they see around them; and they have their hidden agendas, which they relentlessly pursue; they are beyond "embarrassment", they have a hidden agenda(s); and nothing can stop them, for they have no conscience; they have no common decency...and they look upon humanity with disdain, and upon anything that is good or speaks of brotherhood. Above all (admit it) you enjoy punishing others and creating illth everywhere you go. It's the only way you can prop-up you empty, cut off ego.

You obviously, are very deeply hurt inside. I don't know who did that too you...but you are trying to 'get rid of' what happened to you; you are repeating what happened to you...either you Father, or your Mother. The only way you know how to "get it out of your system"...is to re-victimize someone else...someone that reminds you of what you don't have. You hate being reminded of that...don't you? How do I know? I've been there; I went through that; I had to face up to it, and learn, and chance my behavior.

You can run and hide all you want, but the truth is the truth. You just don't see it...yet. But you will.

The only difference between those in power (not all, but too many) and you, is they have more money to indulge themselves, to carry out their sick needs...and so the extent of their destructiveness goes even farther. And nothing but nothing can get them to pay attention, or be reasonable, or care...or anything that any decent person would resort to bring about positive change in good faith.

You have very well demonstrated this for all to see, and there really should be no more mystery to all this...as to 'why the world is the way it is.'

You do not bring joy, you do not bring understanding, you speak of nothing which might help or empower people. You have no regard for human life...because of the hatred you are drowning in. And you are too stupid to even be curious.

I see very little difference between you and Larry...'wounded idiots' like you in positions of political and corporate power, and idiots like Larry in Churches. Again, not all, but too many. And you use all humanity as your whipping boy...the object of your sick needs, desperately trying to fill that tortured hole inside of you...the sickness that rots from within.

But because your intention is not sincere, because it has no Heart, because it is not genuine, you never get the satisfaction from your desperate antics...and so, you have to keep repeating it over, and over and over. Notice that? You live in your own self-created Hell and are trying to drag everyone and everything down your empty hole...for fear of being left alone. And that's a fact.

You are proud of your ignorance...literally...*ignor-ing*. You think there is power in that? Or Heart? You don't even know what such questions mean.

But what I'd like to know is, are you having fun? And how do you face yourself in the morning?

You have done a great service to more people than you will ever know, both of you, by showing exactly the emotional 'illth' you have within, and that no amount of effort, caring, reasonableness, no consequence or suffering of another is enough to get your attention.

And there you have it...in a microcosm...from 'the littlest man on the street', to what fills the highest halls of Earth's "Power Elite". Do you really think it is any more mysterious than that? What perfect examples they are...of exactly what we allow to run rip- shod over all of us, our environment, everything we hold dear, out children's future, the safety and well being of Humanity. Petty, little Tyrants that they are. Distruptors...as you have just seen here.

And that, as Larry pointed out...IS something to worry about and to fear. Because it has been running rampant on this planet for thousands of years, war after war, thug after thug, enslaver after enslaver...that when one falls, another is ready to take their place, and continue that game.

And if enough good people keep ignoring all that they *know* is happening in their world...we'll just think what that will lead to...and look where we are headed.

Ron, Larry...thank you very much for bringing this entire "rant" into focus for what it truly means. You have cut to the very Heart of the matter, so everyone can see, in the Light of Day. So they can "see" and "know" the type of persons who we have entrusted with the well being of the People, Nations, the World...and Future Generations.

A major lesson and insight for all; certainly for me. I salute you.

Have nice dreams tonight...both of you. And just try to forget everything that was said here.

How's that for a short answer?

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 19, 2000.

sorry...that double posted by mistake.

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 19, 2000.

Risking yet making another mistake, I predict that both Larry and Ron *will have to make* one final 'post'. It will not be anything loving, it will not be anything that brings resolution, or understanding. Something that will be said to continue the seperation, the hurt, the ignoring.

Again, one last desperate 'gasp', pointing out some trivial mistake for my not being perfect in their eyes; dammned by God, or dammed by them, does not matter. As long as it continues the hurting, and the propping up of Ego...that will reign supreme of all.

Or...you will never hear from them again.

Lets see if I'm wrong...

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 19, 2000.

"To laugh often and much; to win the respect of intelligent persons and the affection of children; to earn the appreciation honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; To appreciate beauty; To find the best in others;

To leave the world a bit better,

whether by a healthy child,

or a redeemed social condition;

or a job well done;

to know even one Life has breathed easier

because you have lived:

-- this is to have succeeded."

(Raplh Waldo Emerson)

I think enough has been said on this thread. Good night folks.

-- Steve (S&M@happy.com), January 19, 2000.

Gee, I saw my name invoked again, followed by the -- predictable -- five miles of tripe.

Can't this fool type *less* than a whole book at a single session?

PS: as I stated earlier, I did not *read* the massive tripe pile, so obviously I won't be responding to it.

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), January 19, 2000.

(excerpts from other threads here and there)

"Consider the simple fact that racism and bigotry is a cry for help from someone whom is swamped with too much internal pain. He is crying for help. He is overloaded with social pressures. He is wailing like a new-born child with no great understanding. Why do people cry? To get attention. To beg for relief of their pain.

Does he really "hate" those he has attacked? I seriously doubt it. He is probably simply in so much social pain from conflicting inputs originating in relms of influence that he has subjected himself to, that he can not handle it. What he needs is less pain. What he is crying out for is less pain. What he is pleading for from you is relief of the painm of the social inconsistancies that are plagueing him. He is hurting, and bad. That is why he cries out all these "hate" statements Steve. Find the social pain that is being placed on him and try to relieve him of it's pressure.

Hate is the ultimate response to pain. Violence - whether it is physical, emotional or verbal - is for people who've run out of ideas."

"God bless the Child...that's got his own."

Stay strong my Friend,

"Big Al" from Down Under

-- Anon (Anon@Anon.com), January 19, 2000.

Then again, there are those who hold that the purest form of hate is expressed in the form of passive aggression.

-- Ron Schwarz (rs@clubvb.com.delete.this), January 19, 2000.

"An excuse is usually a very thin skin of falsehood stretched tightly over a barefaced lie."

Websters Dict: 'Ron Schwarz' -(noun); "A Mad Perversion of Priorities"

"Free my hands and I'll varnish this floor with your brains!" ("The Scarlet Citadel" - Robert E. Howard.)

* * * * *

"A common response to a threat to ones paradigms is to flee into protective ignorance by ignoring and refusing to learn any information which might contradict those paradigms." John David Garcia

"A Mind is like a Parachute, to function properly...it Must be Open."

"To see what is in front of one's nose requires a constant struggle." (George Orwell)

"If we mock what we do not understand, we might learn too late that our arrogance has led to our annihilation" -- Outer Limits

"One can die from ignorance"

"Maybe we should let the insane happen--let the environment or some other coming disaster manifest itself. People wouldn't learn ANYTHING from it but perhaps a new 'mindset paradigm' based on everything good we have talked about can be implanted in the minds of kids of the Aftermath, replacing what Pope John Paul II has called--"a culture of greed and death". (Pete Thompson)

Then we can figure on the usual break down: 20% selfish and venal, 20% altruistic and noble, and the 60% middle going which ever way the wind blows strongest. Forget all this technology crap. See what the real challenge is?? (Dale Way)

* * * * *

"Intelligence without communication is irrelevant. Communications without intelligence is noise. Noise is the same as listening to Ron Schwarz." Gen. Alfred. M. Gray, USMC

* * * * *

Carl Quigley, a teacher of Clintons, has been quoted as saying, "Capitalism is the system of accounting that does not account for social costs."

Wake up and smell the coffin, for its your funeral if you don't.

"Something is burning somewhere...but does anyone care?" -- Harry Chapin

-- ICE (WeSee@ThruU.com), January 20, 2000.

Hey...Ron! Are we having FUN yet??

(LOL! / smile) Not "at" you silly goose...at the situation. Got it?

I mean, our pissing-in-the-wind really is kinda silly, don't you agree? Actually, I admire your tenacity...it brings the best out of me. (Twue!)

All in all...kinda cool thread, huh? I mean, just look at some of the other threads in this mad house....boring! Our's is waaaay UP THERE!

Best,

Steve

-- Steve Meyers (Steve Meyers@aol.com), January 20, 2000.

2 abused Ducks, emotionally wounded at an early age in Life...banging their heads on the wall together, wondering 'Why does it hurt so much??'

ROFLMO...

I dunno...what do you think? BONK!....(damn this wall!)

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 20, 2000.

ICE - I don't believe that ZogSexWax is the zzoggy@yahoo.com with his own "website and drawings". This is someone using a similar name.

-- Laurane (familyties@rttinc.com), January 20, 2000.

LAURANE - Yes. 'Zog Sex Wax' is the #1 surfboard wax used by Champions world around. (really!) Maybe that's where Zoggyy@yahoo.com got his name? And who amongst ye' know what the true origin of 'Zog'...*really* is?

another Mystery to contemplate... (loving smile)

-- ICE (WeSee@ThruU.com), January 20, 2000.

Question: Where is the missing "T" in Ron Schwarz name?

Answer: "He's carrying it on his back..." (Jesus)

(Sorry, I know you're trying to bring this around to some point of relief Steve - but I just couldn't resist. Anyone heard some other good ones lately?)

-- ICE (WeSee@ThruU.com), January 20, 2000.

Ice - 'Cute' Maybe even true to some degree; but that's kind of a mean thing to say at this point. Lay off dude and give it a chance to come around, ok?

Besides (regarding your 'little joke')...you know anybody who isn't?

-- Steve Meyers (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 20, 2000.

Steve - I just wanted to say 'thanks' for all the hard work you put into your website. Awesome. No wonder it received so many awards. One thing for sure, it takes a lot of dedication and caring to do what you've done. Really hot stuff...beautiful graphics. (And your picture? - what a doll!)

Really liked your "What's A Planet Worth?" and I wish more people would wake-up and care like you do. As far as 'so called Y2K- Experts'(?) - the stuff at your website "blows them in the weeds...and leaves 'em in the dust." I bet you scare them. Maybe they should wake-up and 'get a clue' too?

Don't sweat the small stuff...keep on truckin'.

Breanna

-- Breanna (Breanna@hotmail.com), January 20, 2000.

awwwwwh... (red faced, blushing, twiddeling fingers, looking at the floor, etc.)

Well...we try our best.

Thanx for taking the time to visit the site...and actually reading it. (smile) Yeah, you kinda nailed it; that's pretty much what all this discussion is really about: "How much IS a planet worth?" ..like 'ours' for example.

Thanks for your kind words, and for caring enough to share them.

Best,

-- Steve (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 20, 2000.

PS. Opps...! For those who may have come in on the middle of this thread:

Global Strategies Project:

Home Page: http://www.bashar.com/GSP

-------------------------------------

"There really are only 3 things to do in Creation..."

1) Explore

2) Share

3) and Have Fun (ie. "DO #1 and #2)

That's it!

-- s. (S&M@happy.com), January 20, 2000.

--yes, most interesting and LONG thread. To claify, I am not ZogSexWax, that is another individual with many pursuits (I DO own a Zog's Pog, tho...). I spell my handle "zog" to differentiate from him, also from a software/hardware product, and from the Z.O.G. acronym. If I had permission from gary larsen, I would post the farside cartoon from which my nickname came about 12 years ago or so.

-- zog (zzoggy@yahoo.com), January 20, 2000.

Hey Zog,

*Really* liked your (recent) comment at:

http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002Lfp

Good call....and I agree 100%. Thanks much.

-- Steve (SMeyers33@aol.com), January 20, 2000.

From: Y2K, ` la Carte by Dancr (pic), near Monterey, California

Dear Steve,

I haven't read everything of yours that I've found, but I'm printing it out, and will get to it soon. What I've seen, I've liked. I've been on the verge of forwarding your three part thing on another recent thread to a nearby farmer who's self sufficient on 50 acres with whom I've been corresponding. This will be the first thing I've recommended to him to read. He definitely has some ideas of his own that you might weave into your program.

I've long considered myself to be alert to issues of ecology, freedom and social justice, but y2k research has opened my eyes to a lot of new problems, thanks to efforts like yours.

-- Dancr (addy.available@my.webpage), January 21, 2000.