Folks,

According to the web page of the US Catholic Bishops, the RC Church is aligned with the ultra-leftist National Council of Churches:

"Faith and Order Commission, National Council of Churches of Christ in the USA"

"Since 1968 the NCCB has been a full member of this Commission, providing five theologians who represent the Conference at the meetings twice a year. The purpose of the Commission is "To call the churches to the goal of visible unity in one faith and in one eucharistic fellowship expressed in worship and common life in Christ, and to advance toward that unity that the world may believe." During the 1996-1999 quadrennium the Commission peruses studies on Ecclesiology, Formation of Christian Identity, and Mission in this Pluralistic World. It is also sponsoring a conference on Full Communion. Brother Jeffrey Gros is the staff liaison."

Like the libs say: "no enemies on the left."

-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@Hotmail.com), January 29, 2000

Answers

Dear Steve, And your point would be what? Ellen

-- Ellen K. Hornby (dkh@canada.com), January 30, 2000.

Ellen,

My point is that the RC Church is more than willing to enter relationships with apostate organizations, thus showing that its alleged opposition to modernism should be taken with a grain of salt.

-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@hotmail.com), January 30, 2000.

I suppose an apostate (in case he is one) is a sinner, is he not?

"Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him. And the Pharisees and scribes murmered, saying, This man recieveth sinners, and eateth with them". (Lk 15,1-2)

What would Jesus do today with these "apostates"?

And, BTW, waht was Paul doing in Athens among a bunch of pagans?

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), January 30, 2000.

Folks, just ignore Steve.

His ignorance of Church history is so invincible that he will never be able to get it into his head that local bodies of bishops have frequently fallen into error and that this does not intersect with Catholic belief on the role of the episcopate at all (have you ever actually read any book by a faithful Catholic explaining Catholic doctrine, Steve?). Ever heard of Arians, Donatists, Novatians, Monophysites, Monothelites, iconoclasts, etc. Steve? No? Well I guess that's because your "church" was founded just five hundred years ago. We have a longer memory than that.

By the way, Steve, what have your "bishops" said about contraception? I'm asking in all honesty; I really don't know.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), January 30, 2000.

Dave 

In your response you imply that joining up with the NCC is only a "local" aberration. However, the Vatican encourages dialog with the World Council of Churches, of which the NCC is a member.

In Ut Unum Sint (1995), John Paul II stated:

"24. [. . . ] Nor can I forget the meetings held in the Scandinavian and Nordic Countries (1-10 June 1989), in North and South America and in Africa, and at the headquarters of the World Council of Churches (12 June 1984), the organization committed to calling its member Churches and Ecclesial Communities "to the goal of visible unity in one faith and in one Eucharistic fellowship expressed in worship and in common life in Christ".[47]"

You heard that right folks: churches that support sodomy and killing little babies are advocating "life in Christ." (Not all members of the WCC/NCC do, but certainly a lot.)

BTW, the LCMS does not have bishops.

-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@hotmail.com), January 30, 2000.

Steve,

You have the weirdest way of interpreting documents I have ever seen. Your hatred of the Catholic Church and single-issue blindness make your comments consistently distorted.

The goal is common life in Christ by having all Christian bodies come back into communion with the one true Church, established by Christ: the Catholic Church.

(Oh, and your failure to have bishops is simply one more break with the apostolic deposit of faith on the part of your denomination):

28-Jan-2000 -- Vatican Information Service

THE FULLNESS OF SALVATION IS FOUND IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

VATICAN CITY, JAN 28, 2000 (VIS) - The participants in the plenary session of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith were welcomed this morning by the Holy Father, who dedicated his talk to one of the two themes of the plenary, "the oneness and saving universality of Christ and of the Church," affirming that the fullness of salvation is found in the Catholic Church.

The Pope stated that "the reaffirmation of the Magisterium's doctrine in this regard is proposed ... in order to refute errors and grave ambiguities which have taken shape and are being spread in diverse milieux."

"In recent years, in fact," he affirmed, "in certain theological and ecclesial milieux a mentality has emerged which tends to relativize the revelation of Christ as the one and universal mediation for salvation, as well as to redimension the Church's need for Christ as a universal sacrament of salvation. To remedy this relativistic mentality the definitive and complete nature of the revelation of Christ must be reiterated."

"The thesis concerning the limited nature of the revelation of Christ, which finds its complement in other religions, is therefore contrary to the Church's faith. The basic reason for this assertion claims to be based on the fact that the truth about God cannot be received and shown in its universality and fullness by any one historical religion, therefore, not even by Christianity, much less by Jesus Christ. This position, however, contradicts the affirmation of faith according to which Jesus Christ represents the full and complete revelation of the saving mystery of God."

John Paul II continued: "Linked to the oneness of the saving mediation of Christ is the oneness of the Church He founded. In fact the Lord Jesus constituted His Church as a saving reality: as His Body, through which He Himself works in the history of salvation. As there is only one Christ, there is only one Body: 'one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church'." "It is therefore erroneous to consider the Church as one road to salvation next to those built by other religions." What must be excluded is "a religious relativism which leads people to hold that one religion equals another."

He observed that Vatican Council II said that non-Christians could attain eternal life "'moved by grace' if 'they seek God with a sincere heart'. ... Their situation, however, is lacking, if compared to that of those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation."

Pope John Paul closed his talk by re-confirming "the Catholic Church's commitment to 'the re-establishment of unity'. ... Our ardent desire to one day reach full communion with other Churches and ecclesial communities must not however obscure the truth that the Church of Christ is not a utopia that must be put back together from existing fragments, with our human strength. The Decree 'Unitatis redintegratio' explicitly spoke of the unity 'which we believe subsists, without the possibility of being lost, in the Catholic Church and which we hope will grow every day to the end of time'."

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), January 30, 2000.

Folks, Dont ignore Steve he is the one of the only ones on this forum who does not drivel semi-catholic/protestant/modernist responses to questions and issues. Keep the Faith Steve! Pat

-- Patrick (pmwalshjmj@yahoo.com), January 30, 2000.

Patrick,

Steve does not share your Catholic faith. I am sorry that you have lost some portion of your own Catholic faith by believing that the magisterium of the Church could be led into error. But please, don't band together with those outside the Catholic fold to attack Holy Mother Church. It is a sad spectacle indeed.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), January 30, 2000.

Thanks for the kind words Patrick.

Dave: I only take the Pope's words at face value.

As far as people ignoring me, if it weren't for me, this board would be dead.

-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@Hotmail.com), January 30, 2000.

David, Thank you for the warning. I was not aware that Steve was not Catholic. I have only been visiting this forum for a few weeks, but he gave me the impression that he was a Catholic offering valid criticisms of the modernism which plagues the Church; If he is not Catholic than you are the first one to state this to me. and I shall heed your sound advice about attacking Mother Church. So anyone afterall what is Steve's faith? ... Steve..??

As far as Steves sometimes hard-hitting critiques of the statements and actions of the Holy Father, I have not interpretted these as attacks on Holy Mother Church. St Athenatius (sp.?) because of his efforts against the Arians was exiled by Pope Liberius, but in the end it turns out he was in the right and later canonized; Saint Paul rebukes Peter for Peter's improper conduct with the Judaizers when Peter was clearly in the wrong; One should not equate criticism of the actions of the Holy Father in his ordinary Magisterium as Attacking the deposit of faith (Holy Mother Church). St Robert Bellermine, Doctor of the Church writes of circumstances in which it would be right to oppose a bishop or even a pope to protect the deposit of faith. So Dave try to keep an open mind.

And Steve welcome to the forum, so far to my knowlege all that I have read you write here (the short time I have been here) there was nothing I found you write against the faith, so as long as that continues, welcome. (If i am wrong here i welcome correction Dave)

Patrick

Patrick

-- Patrick (pmwalshjmj@yahoo.com), January 30, 2000.

Dave, I went back to some of Steves previous posts on this site (which i had not read before), and I see that he does take heretical positions (i.e. faith alone) in oposition to the deposit of faith.

Steve, I dont know if you have ever done this but rather than debate with catholics on this forum (who may or may not know the orthodox faith -- and furthermore may or may not be able to defend it) please consider reading the documents of the council of trent supplimented by the philosophical and theological treatises of St Thomas Aquinas. Then after having read them you still remain a heretic (no offence intended as I enjoy much of your writing here, I truely do) then I dont think after that any of us will do a better job than St Thomas.

Also Steve, I totally agree with your criticism of Modernist Rome and some of the troubling spectacles we see in these times as you often point out so well, but try to distinguish the deposit of the faith ( the eternal infallible magisterium) from the actions of many modernists(also heretics)in high places. I enjoy your input here. Please continue to post. I wish more Catholics had your zeal!! You truely belong in the Catholic Church.

Patrick

-- Patrick (pmwalshjmj@yahoo.com), January 30, 2000.

<< Dave: I only take the Pope's words at face value. >>

No, you consistently wrench them out of context.

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), January 30, 2000.

Dear Patrick,

Pope Liberius did not exile St. Athanasius; I'm not sure where you read that. On Pope Liberius, see this excellent article on my Web site (but check it out soon because I'm moving my site to a different address within a week or so):

Good article on Liberius

-- David Palm (djpalm64@yahoo.com), January 31, 2000.