I have found some literature in response to the post below regarding animal rights:

"From an early age, I have abjured the use of meat, and the time will come when men will look upon the murder of animals as they look upon the murder of men" --Leonardo Da Vinci

"The day may come when the rest of the animal creation may aquire those rights which never could have been withholden from them but by the hand of tyranny. The question is not 'can they REASON, nor can they TALK, but can they SUFFER'" -- Jeremy Bentham

"Men is destined to a better occupation than that of pursuing and cutting the throats of dumb animals." "Nothing cruel is useful or expedient" -- Cicero

-- Kassandra (kasia@nctimes.net), February 11, 2000

Answers

Now the spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils;

Speaking lies in hypocricy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Forbidding to marry,and commanding to abstain from meats which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

I Tim. 4:1-3

-- Maher Shalalhashbaz (mahershalalhasshbaz@mail.com), February 11, 2000.

I left for work today wearing a $350 black leather jacket, $120 leather shoes and a nice $35 leather belt. For lunch today I just nuked a chicken dish, cooked in salsa, on a bed of rice that I had prepared last night. This evening my sweetie and I are planning to adjourn, after a hard days work, to a pleasant and quiet restaurant where we will both most likely order Prime Rib-medium rare. Tommorrow we plan on rising early and putting on our waterproof LL Bean all leather "Knifes Edge" hiking boots to hike in the snow and admire the beautiful scenery. You dance to your tune and I'll dance to mine. Militant vegetarians trying to impose ther beliefs on me can pound sand.

-- Meatchomper (Eating well@flesh.eat&wear), February 11, 2000.

In another incarnation, I am an animal mechanic.

The day some speachless, four footed furball whips out a checkbook to pay for my services is the day I say they have rights.

Hasn't happened yet.

-- JIT (justintime@rightnow.net), February 11, 2000.

Right on, Kassandra.Maybe those who inflict such suffering on animals lead such miserable lives that their sick minds could care less.

-- Simply Ted (SimplyTed@webtv.net), February 11, 2000.

I didn't fight my way to the top of the food chain just to becomes a vegetarian.

If God didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made meat taste so good.

PETA: People Eating Tasty Animals

-- A (A@AisA.com), February 11, 2000.

Animals would eat US if they could. Actually, they DO, whenever they get the chance.

Eating them is only fair.

-- pass the drumstick (munch@chew.swallow), February 11, 2000.

Kassandra -

I was going to post some useful information for these guys... but then thought "Ahhh - what's the point?" They do not care about the environment, they do not care about human or animal suffering, or their own health, world malnutrition, natural resource usage or anything else. No, they are true Joe Sixpacks - so long as they have their cancerous KFC and their Budweisers while they watch the superbowl they're happy. The only good thing for this planet is that they will probably die in their 40s or 50s of "natural causes".

I leave with a couple of quotes


The birds of the air die to sustain thee;
The beasts of the field die to nourish thee;
The fishes of the sea die to feed thee;
Our stomachs are their common sepulcher,
Good God! With how many deaths are our poor lives patched up?
How full of death is the life of momentary man!

QUARLES (1592-1644)

---oooOOOooo---

"Humanity's true moral test, its fundamental test, consists of
its attitude toward those who are at its mercy: animals. And in
this respect, human kind has suffered a fundamental debacle, a
debacle so fundamental that all others stem from it."

Milan Kundera, The Unbearable Lightness of Being

-- Y2KGardener (govegan@aloha.net), February 11, 2000.

While you're collecting quotes, don't forget this one:

Luke 12:4-7

I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more.

But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God.

Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. _____________________________

Example of an application to the issue of "animal rights": My children's needs, rights, and life take priority over those of an animal. Since you are also a human being, so do yours. Cruelty to or suffering of animals is certainly not a desireable thing, on the other hand, and does not go unnoticed by God.

We are all accountable for our decisions, and will answer for the effect we choose to have on the world around us, in the end. No one actually gets away with anything that is wrong.

-- S. Kohl (kohl@hcpd.com), February 11, 2000.

Ka,

I guess it's O.K. to have your opinion, but please live up to it. If you or anyone you know needs say open heart surgery, angioplasty, antibiotics, or other useful medical goodies that are *tested* on animals, make sure you put your foot down and say "no". You wouldn't want people to accuse you of wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 11, 2000.

Y2KGardener,

Can you tell me what the ratio of vegetarians to meat eaters is in this country? Do you have information that proves that vegetarians live longer? And happier? I would have to guess that you are in a vast minority as a vegetarian. But of course it is your right to eat or not eat whatever you wish and I would never want anyone to take that right away from you. This is America after all.

Conversely I wouldn't want anyone telling me that I couldn't consume animal products of any kind. I don't believe that most people who consume animal products want these animals to unduly suffer, except for maybe a few of the posters above.

As for your Joe Sixpack paragraph; I think it's inaccurate to categorize and generalize people like that. I am concerned about thee environment, suffering of all kinds, and I am in excellent health.

ps I have a nice veggie garden so I usually supplement my steak with some green beans, some fried peppers and onions and a nice salad. Bon apetite!

-- Meatchomper (Eating well@flesh.eat&wear), February 11, 2000.

S. Kohl--You said that oh so much more nicely than I would have.

Born Killer--And you are 66 years old?? Some of us will pray extra hard for you. Like pray that you can avoid the pit of Hell where torment is Forever. Rant mode off now.

-- I Believe (Repent@time is now.com), February 11, 2000.

Frank,

Thank you for your well thought-out comment. Allow me to respond.

I guess it's O.K. to have your opinion, but please live up to it.
Unless you know Kassandra personally, that is a rather bold and assuming statement to make. Do you know *anything* about her other than her name?

If you or anyone you know
(Please explain to us why Kassandra is also responsible for the decisions of anyone she knows!)

needs say open heart surgery, angioplasty, antibiotics, or other useful medical goodies that are *tested* on animals, make sure you put your foot down and say "no".
You are ignoring the fact (yes, fact!) that those who lessen their intake of animal products suffer far less (and in many cases not at all) from so-called "natural" ailments. You might be surprised to learn that it is *not* necessary to be visiting your doctor every week or two and consuming pharmaceuticals by the bucket-load. Not unless you let your stomach do your thinking for you at mealtimes. I don't know about Kassandra, but I have neither been to see a doctor nor taken a drug (not even aspirin) for 22 years.

You wouldn't want people to accuse you of wanting to have your cake and eat it too.
Have you tried a dairy and egg-free cake recently? Not only can they be had easily, they are also very edible!

-- Y2KGardener (govegan@aloha.net), February 11, 2000.

Humans are predators,predators eat meat. Be glad we are nearly at the top of the food chain.I don't think any meat eating animal would have a problem with human flesh. So eat meat or not. Just quit whinning!

-- Daryll (twincrk@hotmail.com), February 11, 2000.

Y2KGardener,

thank you for your thoughtful posting and usuful quotes, I will save them. As I have found out in my life experience the best way to influence people is by your own example. I do not want to impose my opinions on anyone. I believe that each person learns his/her lessons in his/her own time. Being compassionate is to allow that person to go through the growth process without my judgement.

I have not needed conventional medical help, so far, in my adult life. I take responsibility for my own wellbeing through studies and application of naturopatic medicine.

Aloha from So. California, Y2K Gardener :)

-- Kassandra (kasia@nctimes.net), February 11, 2000.

LOL! ROFLMAO! I always knew those farm kids had a better way to do it! I bet Albert is probably white haired by now if he's still alive. This has got to be joke or is it? Listen to her ribs crack! That's to much!

-- Urban Cowboy (urbancowboy@trailsend.com), February 11, 2000.

Beef - it's what's for dinner! http://www.calbeef.org/index.htm FACTS on beef nutrition - another perspective

See also http://www.beef.org/

-- marsh (siskfarm@snowcrest.net), February 11, 2000.

Kassandra - your sentiments are good, but not everyone can live that way. I tried to be a vegetarian, but it was not in my blood type - I am now on the blood type diet (Eat right for your Type by Dr. Peter D'Adamo, a naturopath.) I eat moderate amounts of beef, organic if I can get it, and I feel alive.

It's easy to say that killing animals is murder if you don't thik you need meat to survive.

Check out www.dadamo.com and www.beyondveg.com.

-- recovering vegetarian (alas@coldmail.not), February 11, 2000.

Recovering Vegetarian, I will check the webpages you mentioned, thanks. Nevetheless, I've been a vegetarian for past 15 years. My motivation is wholistic and strong ( your mind can overcome any "reality", if you choose to) and I am healthy, happy and glad!

-- Kassandra (kasia@nctimes.net), February 11, 2000.

Don't believe in torture, of any kind. Here is another thread, on same issue. http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=0023yw

-- Quick (and@Merciful.com), February 11, 2000.

granted we all have our thoughts about animal rights,i feel that if someone wants to eat meat they should be able to without pro animal groups cramming down our throats about their beliefs. i enjoyed hunting for many years before arm operations stopped me form bowhunting,but my son now 10,without any suggestions from me wants to start hunting again to show him how.another topic is medical research,my wife has MS,her brother was injured in an accident where he rolled his van to miss a dog,broke his neck and is confined to a wheelchair for 16 years now,also cancer,aids,and many other illnesses .i say unless you are willing to help test new drugs with your own body don't be too quick to judge other people's veiw . just an old country hick

-- harry huges (daddyo56@hotmail.com), February 11, 2000.

I've been around livestock all my life and when they were sick we did all we could to help them. Many times I got up at 3 in the morning to deliver a calf or call a vet when the situation got of hand. Animal rights activist fit in the same category as gay activist, skinheads,KKK and other off the top shelf nitwits that think they need their lightbulb of goofiness lit up.

-- John Thomas (cjseed@webtv.net), February 11, 2000.

The simple fact is that humans are omnivores, which fact vegs ignore. The conversion to and prosyletizing for veg... is a religious experience. As with all religious experiences, there are no facts, only faulty logic and emotions. Vegs have too much time on their hands. They are laughable, contemptible, a joke.

-- A (A@AisA.com), February 11, 2000.

Mr. Harry, your Wife suffers from M.S.. What are her favorite foods and Beverages? Call me, Paranoid.

-- Quick (And@Merciful.com), February 11, 2000.

As an animal lover, I think the sysops should delete Born Killer's threads. He is SICK! (I know I'm not usually so vocal, but I abhor cruelty to animals!) He is revolting.

-- Jo Ann (MaJo@Michiana.com), February 11, 2000.

Jo Ann-- I agree, it should be deleted. See also my response a few threads above this one to Urban Cowboy who thinks Born Killer is a rip roarin comedian. Sick.

-- dory (crtwheel@eburg.com), February 11, 2000.

I do not believe in needless suffering of animals but eating meat is fine.

I won't tell you that you have to eat meat because I believe in eating meat so then you don't have permission to tell me I can't eat meat just because you don't believe in eating meat.

Wish you people would learn the whole world does not have to believe like you and live like you. Don't eat meat if you don't want to but stop trying to control others actions. I do not believe you are God and have not heard anyone made you God to tell others how to live their lives?

-- med. rare please (eatingmeat@keepinon.com), February 11, 2000.

Jo Ann, I was once, where you are. You feel Righteous in your stance. Because it has been so humanly, ingrained. Take for instance, the language and the inference of the scenerio published above my head. You take offense, maybe because the offense mode, was only human induced, through time and ritual. Cuss words, where did they come from, F'n this, Bas' that, M.F, cause you to spaze out. Can find no mention of any of them, nor condemnation of Rock and Roll and hip wigglers in the Bible. We are our own worst human enemy. God taught forgiveness and Mercy, said no matter how hard we tried to do good, swept our house clean to be rid of one spirit devil, once our house was clean, seven more devils would enter our house. It can only be the Faith, which substains us. Probably, you still feel compelled to bow your head, while you pray? Tain't so. I lift my face to the Heavens, my Preach had to back track when he saw my head didn't go down. Said something about the head bowing started in the 1600's or something, and we could bow our heads or not. Rest of Church, heads bowed, my head looking upward, with eyes open. What ya been taught or have learned since eye shields fell away. Speed!

-- Quick (and@Merciful.com), February 11, 2000.

I've been a vegetarian for 30 years. Ahimsa,
compassion, is what initially set me on this
path. I have no quarrel with those that want
to kill and eat meat. I would do it if I didn't
have any choice. Since I have the option, I will
choose the least violent path.

-- spider (spider0@usa.net), February 11, 2000.

I will venture to guess that "born killer" is pulling everyone's chain. Anyone who would be doing all the stuff he claims, would obviously be institutionalized by now. And if he were on the net at all, it would be to visit the obviously psychotic sites, not TB200.

(Of course, I do not mean to imply that we are normal people around here, either.)

Gene

-- gene (ekbaker@essex1.com), February 11, 2000.

Gene, et all, some folks lives, are much different than yours. Human kindness should be first.

-- Quick (and@merciful.com), February 11, 2000.

Born Killer,
Cats eat mice and rats. Dogs keep predators from the
camp. What species is not doing its part in ensuring
that the spaceship that we are traveling on will
continue in providing life for creatures as it
projects itself around the sun. Maybe there is one.
There is one that will foul its own nest and threaten
the survival of all of the planet by developing weapons
that can end civilization as we know it. There is one
that will not see its position in the balance of the
whole.

-- spider (spider0@usa.net), February 12, 2000.

Born Killer,

Since World War Eleven? Man, you have been doing that a long time!

Y2K Gardener, You commented on,

"I guess it's O.K. to have your opinion, but please live up to it. Unless you know Kassandra personally, that is a rather bold and assuming statement to make. Do you know *anything* about her other than her name?"

See next response, and no it isn't too bold a statement, and yes, the one thing I know about "her" other than "her" name is her belief in "animal rights".

" If you or anyone you know (Please explain to us why Kassandra is also responsible for the decisions of anyone she knows!)"

My point here is that Kassandra IS MAKING herself responsible for the lives of the people around her if by a "no animals" stance she stops the use of animals for medical experimentation.

"needs say open heart surgery, angioplasty, antibiotics, or other useful medical goodies that are *tested* on animals, make sure you put your foot down and say "no". You are ignoring the fact (yes, fact!) that those who lessen their intake of animal products suffer far less (and in many cases not at all) from so-called "natural" ailments. You might be surprised to learn that it is *not* necessary to be visiting your doctor every week or two and consuming pharmaceuticals by the bucket-load. Not unless you let your stomach do your thinking for you at mealtimes. I don't know about Kassandra, but I have neither been to see a doctor nor taken a drug (not even aspirin)for 22 years."

Please! are you implying that with a good diet people won't get ANY cancer, diabetes, heart disease, potentially lethal infections (before the antibiotic era, pneumonia killed A LOT of people), etc. While a vegetarian lifestyle is probably healthy, (assuming you eat a balanced diet) and not to be TOO ad hominem here, most of the people I have seen who said they don't believe in doctors, medicine, etc. change their tune pretty quickly when they get in an accident and need surgery or have that first heart attack or serious infection. Heck, I can say I don't even believe in eating as a general rule right after a full meal! Sometimes I can keep that belief up until I get hungry again.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 12, 2000.

Not much point in arguing... but for all open-minded consumers of sentient beings

Read This

-- Sound (of@the.voiceless), February 12, 2000.

'A Very Special Story' for Born Killer entitled:

"What ever happened to Adolf Hitler?"

In other words:

"What you put out...is what you get back."

For your reading enjoyment Born Killer. I'm sorry to be the one to have to share this with you. Trust me, after reading this little story you might agree - this is NOT the kind of 'game' you want to play, nor take 'reckless risks', i.e. just "rolling-the-dice" to 'see' if it's not true...or is.

Something to think about.

"Good luck"

-- steve (WhoCares@nymore.Right?com), February 12, 2000.

"The single largest cause of Death...is being Alive." (s. meyers)

-- steve (WhoCares@nymore.Right?com), February 12, 2000.

I eat animals but I do not like what Born killer has been saying but ya know what? I think he is a bit touched in the head as I think sex with an animal is revolting to even think about.

BUT Is he much different than the millionaires who use to go to Africa on jungle hunts JUST TO KILL an animal then bring the animals home to stuff and display them? OR the fishermen who just kill the fish to mount?? I think they are brothers but we don't see anything wrong with walking into a fish place and seeing mounted fish on the walls do we???? Why are the millionaires not condemed by society by JUST killing an animal for fun yet some old codger like Born killer is?? I think personally both are not someone that I could live with.

I don't get killing animals just for fun but I do believe in killing them for a useful purpose like eating or if you are in need of warmth and need the coat to survive or shoes for the feet. It is the order of things to kill to eat and use animals. The whole animal kingdom does it. It is the current natural order of things until God changes it.

-- ya know (saythis@yaknow.com), February 12, 2000.

I think this guy is a little more than just touched in the head and if you ask me, having sex with a cow borders past a little bizarre. I was raised on a farm and I heard other kids talk about it but I assumed it was all B.S. and I still do. We all had BB guns and the frogs and swallows were the best target out there besides the neighbor's mail box. We didn't have many squirrels but we all had squirrel guns just in case. As for PETA and the rest of the nut cases in this country that carry their agenda too far,it is comforting for me to know that their nutrition is right down there with the rest of the third world countries that would give anything to have the enormous variety of food that we enjoy in this abundant nation.

-- John Deere (johndeere@home.finally), February 12, 2000.

My, my, I just quoted few great historical minds, and look what a commotion it has made! I am so pleased this topic is alive! Greetings to all, regardless where your stand.

-- Kassandra (kasia@nctimes.net), February 12, 2000.

Steve,

I tried to read the article, but when I got to,

"Now, because of the timing that has occurred in the acceleration of your individual and collective transformation,"

I gave it up as junk.

Sorry,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 12, 2000.

i take in ypur stance on animal rights that you might have a pet,if you do ,do you feed your dog ,cat, whatever veggies? do you wear makeup? or pehaps any thing you own or eat wasn't made out of animal byproducts,you know like glue,makeup,mabye clothing,like wool.if you look at the ingrediants do you strongly restrict you use to anything that doesn't have animal by products in it?there's more to think about in this world besides animal's rights. i don,t agree with cruelity to animals,but we don't need someone to dictate our views.i don't like opra but i don't try to get anyone who likes it to stop their own pleasures in life..

-- harry huges (daddyo56@hotmail.com), February 12, 2000.

The Lord God created the earth, mankind and the animals. Show respect to his creations, and thus show respect to God.

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), February 12, 2000.

Enough! Already! This argument can continue forever, with no winner. The Animal Rights Cult, who will strive to save a dog, cow, ground hog, yet pass by their fellow human, who is hungry, despondant. Notice that beraggled hitch hiker you passed in your speedy auto? Oh pay them no notice "they chose their path and could be a billionaire if they had they guts and fortitude". Sometimes, life isn't as clear cut and monetary bountiful for all. I saw a 20/20 newscast on 01 Dec, about Women in The Shadows" Prostitutes, some from desire, one from design. This one prostitute, living on the streets, addicted to drugs (evil spirits come to mind?) sought only to give comfort to her customers. Camera on her, no false person here, the words fall from her mouth as she searches for the next human dollar, "Oh God, what a long journey".

-- Long Journey (forus@all.com), February 13, 2000.

Mr. Born, I am LOL about the pants falling down, Though you did strike a few nerves, in your earlier descriptions. I tried to stretch feeble mind, to go beyond my earthly known bounds, to try to envision what your words really meant (after the mass stood up in horror). I imagined your words to relay an enema, or some really other type of muldane farm practice. Heavens' Speed

-- long Journey (forus@all.com), February 13, 2000.

Isn't there a way to conclude that torturing animals is wrong without giving them a Bill of Rights? I mean, where would you draw the line? We'd end up having to go to court in order to have the right to clean our wounds!

(but, ya know, some of them bacteria are kinda cute when viewed up close...) :)

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), February 13, 2000.