My question is when you see a friend who obviously is living a life thats self destructive what do you do? I've watched over the years a friend who was a professonal get caught up in the consumer life style big time! Two busineses,3 cars, 2 houses, rv, boat etc. You probably know the type. Anyway he was way over his head so when his wife left him he comitted suicide. My thinking was to each his own. I live a very simple life and I've never been pushy at all. I wish now that I really had screamed my alarm. I really really think a simple honest dignified life is a life saver in itself and I'm going to open my mouth when I see someone I love getting caught up in the consumerism nightmare!!!!! What do you guys do. What do you think? Kirk

-- Kirk Davis (kirkay@yahoo.com), February 24, 2000

Answers

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Kirk, there isn't that much you can do. I've been there, done that too many times. The reality is, if people don't ask for your opinion, they aren't going to listen to you; if they ask, they probably still won't listen. I know it seems harsh, and I'm certainly not telling you to hang up if a friend calls you and threatens suicide, but they've got to get themselves into a place where they are ready to change. Think of it as any other addiction, just as you can't order an alcoholic to stop drinking, you can't force someone to stop spending.

Preaching won't work, ridicule won't work. Don't alienate your friends by doing either. Maybe some day they will approach you and ask you questions, most likely they won't. Live your life in a way that you believe is right, perhaps you will serve as an example for someone.

It is easy to try and wade in with your opinions and offers of help, but don't. Keep the friendship alive so your friends can approach you if they want to. They might only make a small change in their lives, but that would be better than nothing. Gerbil

-- Gerbil (ima_gerbil@hotmail.com), February 24, 2000.

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I agree with Gerbil, there is nothing that you can do to convince someone to change a lifestyle that they seem to like and strive for.

I have a friend that has a combined yearly income of $100,000 plus, and yet has to borrow to buy a riding lawn mower, then make payments on it. As for me, I took a deferred retirement at age fifty and live in a small but paid for house, and pay cash for everything. I have a small farm where I raise some veggies and grains. My other income is from investments and farmland that I rent out. On occasion I work at odd jobs to give myself money for extra treats. Now I ask you, who is happier, my friend the high roller that continues to work hard and make payments, or me, the man of leisure who does things if and when I please? For me, that question is a no brainer, but I have no idea what he would say. lol. Everyone must do as they please, for it is very unlikely that you will ever change them, and pointing out the error of their ways will only cause you to loose their friendship.

-- greenbeanman (greenbeanman@ourtownusa.net), February 25, 2000.

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You know theres something horrible about suicide. It's the last act of complete human misery! It leaves you with compassion for a person thats so hopeless that he can crawl into his car and die with the fumes and then so damn furious at such a cowardly act!! Sorry I am just really upset Kirk

-- Kirk Davis (kirkay@yahoo.com), February 25, 2000.

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Kirk, I'm very sorry for your friend and for you. Suicide is so terrible to have to deal with. Check into services locally to see if there is a group of survivors or a counseling service you can get help from. It is hard to understand, but your friend believed suicide was the only option he had, and in his state of mind, it was a viable option. But you've got to go on. Perhaps you can find some volunteer work to do. There are a lot of things that need to be done, most without any glamour, but they'd help you by giving you an outlet to reach out through.

Nothing can bring your friend back. And while you'll spend a lot of time trying to figure out where you failed, there is nothing you could have done.

This spring, plant a tree for your friend, I will. Gerbil

-- Gerbil (ima_gerbil@hotmail.com), February 25, 2000.

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Kirk, I am so very sorry. I've been there, and the shock and fear and confusion are unforgetable. Now I watch my sister, the professional, work herself to death so her spoiled kids can have every material thing their hearts desire. She is always picking up overtime at the hospitaL, yet if you ask me, what her kids need most is her time. When we were all laughing and joking about the presliced peanut butter, I was thinking about my sister. No time to do anything but make money so she can have all the timesaving stuff money can buy. Very sad. She's not happy, but she doesn't see how to change. All I can do is be myself and be here if she reaches out. That's all any of us can do, just be here for each other. Cathy

-- Catherine Horn (hrnofplnty@webtv.net), February 25, 2000.

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Kirk ,My thoughts and prayers are with you .This is something that you will never quite figure out .Just know you cant help anyone unless they want to help themselfs . You were the best friend you could be , you could not have stopped him .Your pain will ease in time ,try to think of the good times .You may want to consider finding someone to talk to .Sometimes sharing your pain with some who has no personal ties to the situation helps alot . Good luck

-- Patty Gamble (fodfarms@slic.com), February 25, 2000.

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Although generally I tend to agree with the other posts regarding keeping quiet and keeping your friend I think there are ways of gently making them think about things that are not threatening and at least letting them know there are other ways of life that are not so stressful or burdensome. If all else fails, pray.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), February 25, 2000.

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Its so hard to lose some one we love,my condolences.suicide hot lines are always looking for volunteers and thay provide training on what to say and at least there people would be reaching out for help. If some one has htere mind set on suicide know one can stop them, just wish they could see what it does to the people thay leave behind.

-- kathy h (saddlebronc@msn.com), February 25, 2000.

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It sounds as if you feel right now that if you had spoken with your friend about his stress-filled lifestyle that perhaps he would have gotten some help and not killed himself.Most people who have had your experience feel the same for awhile and then, hopefully, realize that unless the person shared his suicidal thoughts with you , there was absolutely nothing you could have done.You mentioned that the friend's wife left him. In our area of rural PA last year alone there were four suicides..all were men who lived simple lives and did not care if they had "all the toys".They had personal grief that I guess they did not know how to bear, but it certainly did not come from life in the fast lane.People who experience a perceived loss that they feel they cannot bear come from all walks of life.My husband and I knew these men and felt a great deal of guilt initially for "not knowing".We asked ourselves often how we could NOT know how depressed they were and help them.How sad.These men never once expressed to anyone how they felt and missed the opportunity to allow others to help them through their very difficult emotions.Sounds as if your friend missed out as well on the opportunity to reach out to you as well as others in his life for support.I guess my point is that some people choose to isolate themselves from others in their times of extreme emotional pain and this is not healthy at all,sometimes ending as suicide.Do you really believe that you could have talked your friend into a laid-back existance and that would have changed his emotional make-up?I don't see that, anymore than if we had suggested to our friends that if they became financially successful "all would be well".You sound like a great friend in the real sense of the word.

-- Lesley Chasko (martchas@gateway.net), February 25, 2000.

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I'm sorry for the loss of your friend. I know that my husband and I were caught up in the rat race ourselves and it was a random comment along with a general sense that we weren't satisfyed with our lives and something was missing that started us back. Sometimes tho we get going so fast that we forget to listen to that inner voice and listen to all the hype that we're constantly being bombarded with via advertising and the "Jones". Also there's something else to consider. Sometimes we must get to a place where we've learned enough to be ready for the next steps in our lives and to actually HEAR what someone may be trying to tell us. It's hard to say how our words will be taken sometimes and for me the times things turned out ok were the times that I spoke from my heart and the moment just happened without planning. You cared and were a good friend or you would not still be mourning and trying to find answers. But yes, I would give a short observation to someone I cared about and then it would be up to them to ask for more or to ignore what I had given them. Period. Because there is a fine line between trying to run someone else's life and giving them help when they need it or want it.

-- theresa deGroot (zay@cdinter.net), February 26, 2000.

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Dear Kirk, So sorry about the loss of your friend. Please don't feel guilty. Everyone has their own path, and sometimes it is hard for us to watch others self-destruct. (I have a brother who is on that path), all we can do is live our lives as best we can and hope it is an expample to others. You made your choices about your own life and others make their own choices. There is probably nothing that you could have done. I'm like you, I don't like to preach about my lifestyle, but ther have been times when the way I live has opened up someone's eyes. It has probably happened in your life too, you may just not be aware of it. Hang in there, time will help heal you. Chris

-- Christine Allen (cfallen00@hotmail.com), February 27, 2000.

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Thank you all so much for your support and comments. I brought in a load of wood and sat there for a couple of days just thinking this out. You are all so right. I can't figure it out. Even if I could it wouldn't change a thing. I think what bothers me the most is that I was to passive. I know you can't change people but I would feel better now had I expressed more alarm. In the future I'll try to express myself more but try to be appropriate. Doesn't seem like a lot but thats all I know to do! Thank You all!!!! Kirk

-- Kirk Davis (kirkay@yahoo.com), February 28, 2000.

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Kirk, I feel the best thing you can do for someone who you see self- destructing is to just be there for them. When/if they need someone to talk to be there for them. Listen to them. You may not change their mind if they're set on suicide....but then again, you might. If you don't change their mind, at least know you've done all you can. My prayers are with you, Kirk---and with your friend and his family.

Kathleen

-- Kathleen (kalfy53@hotmail.com), February 28, 2000.

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Kathleen thanks for your post! The problem with us guys is we seem to have this John Wayne thing going on. No problem with us! Right. Seems my friend would rather kill himself than admit he couldn't handle his problems! How stupid is that? Now most women I know are much better in that area. Thanks Kirk

-- Kirk Davis (kirkay@yahoo.com), February 29, 2000.