I bought an Omega C, since I just don't have time to go to a camera club anymore (and I wanna smoke cigarettes and blast Metallica while creating my perfectly wonderful masterpieces...). Yep.

I am in an apartment, and I have been relegated to a room which is, quite literally, about 2.5 feet by 4 feet (8 foot ceiling). To the best of my design ability, I have only been able to get 4 trays in there, 3 for chemicals and 1 for water. Normally, I use a water bath between each step to save on exhaustion, but I can't do that now, so my question is: is it more important to dilute the developed print for the stop, to save the stop, or to dilute the stopped print for the fix, to save the fix? I am guessing the second, rinse the stopped print in water to save the fix.

ps I run out to the kitchen for washing/toning/etc...

WTB: a bigger room

shawn

-- shawn gibson (SeeInsideForever@yahoo.com), March 05, 2000

Answers

You won't 'save' the fix by washing after the stop. I can't see the point in washing between the dev and stop either. Where have you acquired the idea that intermediate water baths will save on exhaustion? Very strange.

With 4 dishes, I would just have dev, stop, fix and 'hold'. This last one has a little water, and you transport your prints in this to your washing room.

A tip: don't smoke in a room that will contain drying film, or an enlarger.

-- Alan Gibson (Alan@snibgo.com), March 05, 2000.

I was told by the instructor who initially taught me that rinsing between stages keeps the next stage from getting polluted with the previous stage's chemicals, something I've just never questioned since it seemed to make good sense.

So now I have another tray for toning, and a little more desperately needed elbow room. Thanks Alan.

ps I don't smoke in the darkroom itself, for the reason you say (ever cleaned a window in a smoker's home? disgusting...and I assumed the lens would react in the same manner). But I can't smoke anywhere in the building where my camera club is, had to go outside. This is all kinda silly because I shouldn't have mentioned smoking on the web, kinda inappropriate...

Disclaimer: Smoking causes cancer, kids!!!.

Thanks again, Alan.

shawn

-- shawn gibson (SeeInsideForever@yahoo.com), March 05, 2000.

I hose my prints between stop and fix and my fix looks alot less yellow at the end of a session. Since I too have a microscopic darkroom, I only use a 1 bath fix and so want to maintain it's integrity for as long as possible without affecting the stability of my prints.

Alan, can you provide a more compelling case that might dissuade me from this practice?... t

-- tom meyer (twm@mindspring.com), March 05, 2000.

4 trays into that space sound like you must be stacking them vertically in a rack... (off topic, but what sort of room is 2.5x4 ft?? toilets are bigger than that!) If you really want more trays, can you stack them/more vertically?

In my case, I only use Dev/Stop (water)/Fix. I used this method 18ish years ago and the prints still look fine. Recently (after reading to much internet!) I changed to a stop bath but gave that up due to the associated smell. If I'm printing more than a couple of prints, I'll change the 'stop' water during the session.

When printing 10x8 (and smaller) I keep a bucket of water for a quick rinse after the fix before transporting the print to my washing area. When printing 16x12's (my biggest trays) I only have room for 3 trays and use the 'stop' tray as an all purpose tray... 1st as the stop bath (just water) then while the print is in the fixer, I renew the water in that tray and use it as the rinse and to transport the print to where I then wash it in the tray... (this is using RC paper)

Mu new house is going to have a dedicated darkroom with room for 4 16x20's on the wet bench :) I tremble with anticipation! hehe!

Nige.

-- Nigel Smith (nlandgl@eisa.net.au), March 05, 2000.

>>4 trays into that space sound like you must be stacking them vertically in a rack...

yep, on a 12x30 shelving unit. I figure I can just rock the whole damn shelf to agitate...!

>>(off topic, but what sort of room is 2.5x4 ft?? toilets are bigger than that!)

those are really the measurements, and I feel a sense of vertigo when in the bathroom compared to the sense of claustrophobia I get in the closet/darkroom/unventilated-death-trap-waiting-to-happen

but at least I get my heavy metal...and save approx. 8 dollars a week on busfare...and 6 hours of travelling time

shawn

-- shawn gibson (SeeInsideForever@yahoo.com), March 05, 2000.

You'll exhaust your developer long before you exhaust either stop or fix. And regardless, you will not save your fixer from exhaustion due to stop bath but will exhaust it due to undeveloped silver halide saturation. You are just wasting water. You don't need to use stop bath at all really. Water has a pH of around 6.4 to 7.1 and developer has a pH of around 11-12 so plain water will change the pH of the developer enough to stop it's action. But it does it at a much slower rate so if you are working on a very critical print it may behove you to use a stop bath. And photographic chems aren't that expensive so why be so frugal. James

-- james (james_mickelson@hotmail.com), March 05, 2000.

The reason for using a stop bath rather than just plain water is that before very long, the water will be come polluted from the dev, so it won't stop any more.

Stop bath, even slightly polluted from developer, is harmless in fixer. There is no benefit in washing the stop off the print before putting it in fixer. (There's no harm either, but if you like extra steps above the straight dev+stop+fix+wash, a second fix is much more beneficial.)

-- Alan Gibson (Alan@snibgo.com), March 05, 2000.

wouldn't the use of stop also aid in a more even fix when moved? also wouldn't the water bath between chems help to prevent the same eveness? discuss

-- mark lindsey (lindseygraves@msn.com), March 05, 2000.

Assuming you live alone, is there a way you could hang a black curtain in your kitchen entryway and black out the windows with removable blackout cloth? I'm getting clostrophobic just hearing about your setup, let alone the ventilation hazards.

-- Paul Swenson (paulohoto@humboldt1.com), March 05, 2000.

I've been doing photography for over 35 years, man and boy, professionally and as a hobby, and I've never heard of anyone rinsing their prints before and after the stop bath, 'til now. (A water rinse instead of a stop bath, yes)

The whole point of the stop bath is to arrest the development quickly and to act as a Ph buffer between the alkaline developer and the acid fixer. If you throw the stop bath regularly, when it becomes discoloured or feels slimy, then the fixer life will not be adversely affected. Where did this zany idea of additional rinses come from? It's not in any of the text-books that I've read, and it's certainly not common commercial practice.

-- Pete Andrews (p.l.andrews@bham.ac.uk), March 06, 2000.

Shawn, I thought I might as well chime in to offer a suggestion re: your dinkey little darkroom: a slot processor. With a little manual dexterity, some plexiglass and a few hand tools, you should even be able to make one for much less than they sell for ready made. I've been thinking about building a couple just to reclaim a little real estate in the darkroom too.

-- Fritz M. Brown (brownf@idhw.state.id.us), March 06, 2000.

I wouldn't smoke in such a small place while printing. The smoke will diffract the light on the enlarger and reduce contrast and sharpness. You would need an exhaust fan that had an extremely high turn over rate. If so, disregard.

-- WDNAGEL (WDNAGEL@HOME.COM), March 06, 2000.

what the heck is a slot processor? on that note, I've been thinking of one-shoting BW resin stuff in my Ilfochrome rotary/tube/round/whatever-it's-called processor, just the paper and the enlarger in the darkroom then, and I can 'process' in the kitchen or wherever...though it is a very boring way to print (from my colour experience)...comments?

shawn

-- shawn gibson (SeeInsideForever@yahoo.com), March 06, 2000.

What's a slot processor? Think of your trays being open on the side instead of on the top, and standing vertically so you hang your print by way of a clip down in the now tall and narrow tray. Paste three or four of these together and you now have a slot processor. There are a number of them out there. Novatron comes to mind. They are pretty simple affairs and if you dont need temperature control, they could be cobbled together without too much effort and skill.

-- Fritz M. Brown (brownf@idhw.state.id.us), March 06, 2000.

I get it, kinda like a print washer minus the circulation. Good idea, and I can make such a contraption with very thin plexi walls and only say 1 inch thick for the chemicals and print, maybe even one big enough for 11x14.

& no need for water control around here; just in the summer I'll have to add some hardener to my fix cuz it's occasionally up around 80-85...Thanks Fritz...

-- shawn gibson (SeeInsideForever@yahoo.com), March 06, 2000.

Hi Shawn, Just wanted to say that I worked in a darkroom about that size for several years and it worked very well. I wall mounted the enlarger on the right hand wall, then had room to set the trays side by side. There was even a small sink on the far left. It was only cramped with two people inside...

-- Conrad Hoffman (choffman@rpa.net), March 06, 2000.

With slot processors you risk that the print gets stuck against a smooth surface (one of the walls). However, Nova darkroom products to the help: their slot processors do not have smooth walls. Check out the new monochrome processor in the news section at: http://www.novadarkroom.com

/Peter

-- Peter Olsson (peter.olsson@lulebo.se), March 07, 2000.

It doesn't matter if the prints stick to the side. "The following additional information may help you understand the washing process: You can think of the print paper as a sponge, filled with fixer. Since you cannot squeeze the paper, the only way for the fixer to exit the paper is by diffusion. Diffusion can be increased, practically, by increasing the temperture which increases the diffusion constant. Therefore, for faster washing use as high a temperature of water as recommended by the paper manufacturer. High water flow and lots of turbulence can't speed up diffusion."

This quote and lots of additional facts (as opposed to myths) are found at http://www.summitek.com/cascade.html.

-- Chris Hawkins (peace@clover.net), March 11, 2000.

Correction: It could matter if you use resin coated paper. In this case if the "paper side" (not the resin coated side) stuck to the side, then the fixer couldn't dissolve through the resin. If using fiber based paper, this couldn't happen.

-- Chris Hawkins (peace@clover.net), March 11, 2000.

Cris, I use both RC and fibre. One question, most papers seem to be 'good' for up to about 80deg. without a hardener in fixer. Most tolerances by manufacturers are around +/- 5deg from chemical to chemical after developer, which obviously has closer tolerances. For me this is not a problem, since I like to cut time in the first place and rarely use 70deg. for anything, but for others out there who might have a similar or related problem as here, do you think these tolerances are reasonable, i.e., if wash time is critical to them and they therefore want to work at the maximum temp. the manufacturer recommends for fixer, would they be wise to develop also at 75-85 deg.?(/i) I'd say don't go above 80 with the developer...

-- shawn gibson (SeeInsideForever@yahoo.com), March 12, 2000.

hope this fixes the italics...

-- shawn gibson (SeeInsideForever@yahoo.com), March 17, 2000.

Thanks Connie, that sounds like a good idea. And sorry bout your name typo Chris, and the italics all...shawn

-- shawn gibson (SeeInsideForever@yahoo.com), March 17, 2000.

Hi! I probably shouldn't answer your question, because I'm a rookie in these things. I'm also Portuguese, so my english is... well, not that good. But beeing a "Metallica blaster in the darkroom and everywhere else", didn't resist. Here is my question: Why don't you set up your darkroom in the kitchen? It is what I've been doing and so far, so good. Well, I have to take the enlarger everytime I cook, but that doesn't happen that often...

-- Vanessa Santos (vaipipo@yahoo.com), March 20, 2000.